Quote:
Originally Posted by Atocep
You've made it quite clear on this board that you hate any statistic created after the 1970s so I know heading into this post that this is useless to even attempt.
|
I provided another alternate stat that showed Ben as the 17th best QB of all time. What, you didn't like that? If you like alternate number crunching, feel free to go out there and browse. Personally, I prefer to use the stats the NFL does...wins being one of the main ones.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atocep
QB rating is a terrible stat. I ask you to post the components of that stat and explain to me exactly how it's better than a stat that rates a player on a per-play basis adjusted for opponent.
|
When someone comes up with another "game manager" that has accomplished what Ben has, perhaps I'll be more motivated to do so. Until then, I have no interest in breaking down alternate QB rating methods. Or maybe if I find the motivation, I'll break down the one I mentioned earlier.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atocep
As for where Ben stands among other QBs, Manning, Brees, Rivers, and Brady are on another level. Ben isn't in the ballpark of those 4. After that, if we're talking about one season you could make an arguement that Ben is that 5th QB, but you can easily make a case for Rodgers and Eli Manning. If you want to stretch that into who I'd want running a team for the next 5 years I'd put Flacco and Matt Ryan over Big Ben.
|
First, let's start with Rivers. You're right, he's on another level. One below Ben. San Diego has been known for having some of the best talent, if not THE best talent, in the league for some years now. And their stats are quite similar in terms of completion percentage, QB rating, etc.
The major differences? Ben is 8-2 in the playoffs and Rivers is 3-3. Ben has a significantly better QB rating, even with that 22.6 rating in his first Super Bowl. Ben has 50% more 4th quarter comebacks. Ben has won far more games and they started in the league in the same year. Finally, Ben has two rings. Rivers? None.
In a nutshell, Rivers can't hold Ben's jock.
(Though if he does, he might want to spray a little disinfectant on his hands once he's done)
And if you want Flacco and Ryan, then that's fine. Both are good QBs (personally, I'd rather have Flacco). But that's like asking for Mark Bulger over Troy Aikman. Personally, I'll take the winner. I'll break down those guys below.
Rogers and Eli? You're off your fucking rocker and those aren't even worth responding to.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atocep
Those that are singing Ben's praises are conveniently forgetting to mention that he didn't attempt 300 passes his first 2 years in the league, in '06 he had 18tds, 23ints, and was sacked 47 times. In '08 he had 17tds, 15ints, and was sacked 46 times. Ben has not consistently been a good QB. I have very hard time accepting him as a great QB.
Roethlisberger has played in nearly ideal conditions for a QB. He's part of one of the 2-3 best organizations in the NFL. He's consistently played on a team with defenses that have ranged from very good to great. He's had a good running game every year except for '08. He's also played with a very good receiver (2 last season) and a very good pass catching tight end.
|
Damn skippy he grew into the role. Ben was one of the few rookie QBs ever to be successful. He was not projected to be NFL ready when he came out (small school syndrome) and suddenly is thrust into the starting lineup and did splendidly. Now this is a problem? Even guys like Peyton Manning had growing problems (look it up).
He's been consistently good by virtually any standard. Until the last couple of years, he hasn't consistently been great. Now, he's fantastic. From an offensive standpoint, he's carried that team the last two years. Watch the final drive in that last Super Bowl...there's not another QB in the league who could have pulled that off. No one has that kind of play making, scrambling and improvisation in the league. No one.
As for his team conditions, they've been very good, but you're overstating the matter. He's played for two coaches and over the last couple of years has an offensive line that requires him to run for his life and a very poor/inconsistent running game. Yet he's had his best statistical seasons when he's had to carry the team. His conditions are certainly no better than Rivers, yet he's succeeded and Rivers hasn't. Why is that?
I can't judge Ryan or Flacco since they're still young, but both are also in optimal situations. Both are damn fine players. Yet Ryan regressed last season and Flacco, in an optimal situation with the Ravens, only won 9 games. Never mind Flacco's playoff performances (QB rating: 46.5) have been downright awful. Why is that? You'd want a guy who has 1td and 6ints in the playoffs more than Ben? I guess you like losing?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Atocep
4th quarter comebacks are all nice and everything, but Drew Bledsoe had 32 in his career. Are you going to tell me that having a good coach, good running game, good receivers, and a great defense don't play just as large of a role in 4th quarter comebacks as the QB?
|
What does it say when your best comparison on 4th quarter comebacks is Bledsoe (Pro Football Reference says he has 31), who played for 14 years while Ben has 22 in just 6 years?
It's funny, I heard the same exact type of complaints about another gunslinger who scrambled a lot and just found ways to win. He has a 79.9 career passer rating, yet had more wins than any other QB when he retired, had 50 comebacks and is now acknowledged as one of the all time greats. You might have heard of him because he's in the HoF now - John Elway.