[gstelmack]

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

The thing that you're missing, Greg, is that the anger which fuels this anti-American terrorism is enflamed specifically by the actions you're proposing. You propose lashing out indiscriminately whenever we feel threatened, and as a result this means killing, maiming and destroying infrastructure at will. Is it any wonder that this will make people hate us further? Is it any wonder that as a result young, easily swayed men, find themselves willing to listen to religious fanatics who call for them to lay down their lives to defeat the Great Satan, instead of heeding the call of a better life?

They've hated us long before we were involved militarily in the region. I believe it predates our support for the Shah in Iran, but that was around the time I started paying attention. I'm pretty sure we had no troops in the region when our embassy was seized. You need to read about the schools in Pakistan that have been brainwashing kids for a LONG time into hating non-Muslims, and the US in particular. We've been the Great Satan for a very long time.

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

Better it would have been to embark upon a comprehensive expulsion of the Taliban from Afghanistan and the border regions, and an extensive effort to bring OBL to justice. Followed-up by focusing our energies by getting a modern, secular Afghanistan back on its feet. Show a (helping) example that way. But no, we have to go tilting at windmills.

We have been attempting just that in Afghanistan. Maybe your key point is "focus" in that somehow being in Iraq prevents Afghanistan from improving, but I would disagree with that as we still have quite the presence there.

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

Strawman. Is anyone suggesting that attacking Iran & Syria would help big oil? I'm not sure that's even relevant, to be honest. Attacking Iran is not a wise idea simply on the basis that all it will do is add another morass to the list, another place for young Americans to go and die.

My suggestion was that I hear all the time "We are only involved in the Middle East for oil" (including the post I responded to) and "He's going to go after Iran and Syria next!". Those two statements are contradictory. I believe the first one is the false one.

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

Over 1000 more Americans have now died in Iraq than died on 9/11. Are their deaths somehow more acceptable because they're soldiers? Are their deaths somehow more acceptable because they are, theoretically, preventing more 9/11s (but sadly, this didn't deter the massacres in Britain, Spain, and elsewhere around the world)?

Yes, I believe they have prevented more 9/11s, and thus saved this country much larger grief. And that's the role of the military, to keep us safe. To attempt to quote/paraphrase the cheesy line from A Few Good Men: they stand on the wall and keep watch so the rest of us can get on with our lives and don't have to.

In my opinion the massacres in Britain and Spain show that we are having an effect. They are striking closer to home and losing their reach. I think there would have been a lot more and larger incidents if we weren't keeping them busy back near their home bases.

Originally Posted by flere-imsaho

You're right, I don't think I'm going to get where you're coming from. I think you're operating from a set of beliefs/assumptions that I simply cannot.

I simply believe that there are evil people in the world who will do whatever it takes to consolidate their power and bring ruin upon others. I believe those people will not pay any attention to diplomatic niceties, and their sole goal is the eradication of others who don't think like them. I believe those people are getting access to larger and better weapons that allow them to strike harder. No, I don't believe this is Bush, even though many in this country seem to think it is. I believe that no amount of sticking my head in the sand and saying "Can't we all just get along?" is going to have one whit of any effect. And I am happy we have an Administration willing to do so.

I also believe that if we pulled all our troops out of the Middle East tomorrow, things would get real bad real fast for us. Because our simple existence threatens the world order that the radical muslims wish to create. Because education and technology threaten their power base.

There's an interesting book I read a long time ago called "Living With Terrorism". You ought to look it up and see that no matter how much things change, the more they stay the same.