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-   -   Iraq insurgency in 'last throes,' Cheney says (https://forums.operationsports.com/fofc//showthread.php?t=40110)

rexallllsc 06-23-2005 06:08 PM
Iraq insurgency in 'last throes,' Cheney says
 
hxxp://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/IRIN/0c265113d4815a607514f53b36f3f5cc.htm

Quote:
IRAQ: Water main attack affects two million in Baghdad
22 Jun 2005 13:17:19 GMT
Source: IRIN
BAGHDAD, 22 June (IRIN) - Two million Baghdad residents have been without drinking water since 19 June after saboteurs targeted a major water main in the capital.

"The attack on the water pipes was a shock to all residents. Insurgents are not only killing innocent people but also destroying the daily lives of millions of people," Amer Salman, a senior Baghdad governorate official, said.

Salman added that they were working hard to repair the main but said that it may take up to a week to have it functioning properly again, although small-scale pumping may start within two days.

The Mansoor, Yarmouk, Kadhimiya, Baya'a, Ghazaliya and Hay al-Jame'a districts in Baghdad are the worst affected.

"Every day I have to drive 10 km to reach to a public water pipe where I can get water for washing, cleaning and drinking. My air conditioning [AC] machine needs to be filled with water manually every three hours," Kamal al-Jumaily, a Yarmouk district resident, said.

The AC machines, which have to be filled by hand, are cheap to run and are to be found in most Iraqi homes. They are particularly necessary in the summer when temperatures may reach 50 degrees centigrade.

Local doctors have reported an increase in diarrhoea and other illnesses related to the consumption of dirty water.

"Children have been the most effected, due to the dirty water being consumed now. Some families are using public pipes and unsafe wells, which are known to be contaminated," Dr Ahmed Ibraheem, at Yarmouk general hospital, said.

Ibraheem added that during the last water shortage in the capital in January, more than 200 cases of illness through consumption of contaminated water were reported, but they fear the number could be higher now as sanitation has further deteriorated in the capital.

In a desperate measure, many residents have started to dig wells in their gardens.

"The heat is increasing and in place where we acquire more comfort, Iraqis are suffering even more now from power and water shortages," Mahmoud Abbas, a Bayaa district resident said.

rexallllsc 06-23-2005 06:09 PM
Civil War?

hxxp://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/21/in...ted=all∨ ef=login

Quote:
KARABILA, Iraq, June 20 - Late Sunday night, American marines watching the skyline from their second-story perch in an abandoned house here saw a curious thing: in the distance, mortar and gunfire popped, but the volleys did not seem to be aimed at them.

In the dark, one spoke in hushed code words on a radio, and after a minute found the answer.

"Red on red," he said, using a military term for enemy-on-enemy fire.

Marines patrolling this desert region near the Syrian border have for months been seeing a strange new trend in the already complex Iraqi insurgency. Insurgents, they say, have been fighting each other in towns along the Euphrates from Husayba, on the border, to Qaim, farther west. The observations offer a new clue in the hidden world of the insurgency and suggest that there may have been, as American commanders suggest, a split between Islamic militants and local rebels.

A United Nations official who served in Iraq last year and who consulted widely with militant groups said in a telephone interview that there has been a split for some time.

"There is a rift," said the official, who requested anonymity, citing the sensitivity of the talks he had held. "I'm certain that the nationalist Iraqi part of the insurgency is very much fed up with the Jihadists grabbing the headlines and carrying out the sort of violence that they don't want against innocent civilians."

The nationalist insurgent groups, "are giving a lot of signals implying that there should be a settlement with the Americans," while the Jihadists have a purely ideological agenda, he added.

The insurgency is largely hidden, making such trends difficult to discern. But marines in this western outpost have noticed a change. For Matthew Orth, a Marine sniper, the difference came this spring, when his unit was conducting an operation in Husayba. Mortar shells flew over the unit, hitting a different target.

"The thought was, "They're coming for us. But then we saw they were fighting each other," he recalled during a break in Monday's operation. "We were kind of wondering what happened. We were getting mortared twice a day, and then all of a sudden it stopped."

Access for the foreign fighters is easy through the porous border with Syria, where the main crossing, Husayba, has been closed for seven months to stem their flow. "They will come from wherever we are not," said Col. Stephen Davis, the commander of the Second Regimental Combat Team of the Second Marine Division. "Clearly there are foreign fighters here and quite clearly they are coming in from Syria."

Marines have conducted several offensives in villages along the Euphrates, including one over the past few days in Karabila, to disrupt the fighters' networks. During raids on mostly empty homes, they found nine foreign passports, and of about 40 insurgents killed, at least three were foreign, marines said.

Capt. Chris Ieva, a fast-talking 31-year-old from North Brunswick, N.J., said he could tell whether an area was controlled by foreign insurgents or locals by whether families had cellphones or guns, which foreign fighters do not allow local residents to have for fear they would spy on them. Marines cited other tactics as being commonly employed by foreigners. Sophisticated body armor, for example, is one sign, as well as land mines that are a cut above average, remote-controlled local mines, and well-chosen sniper positions.

When the marines were fighting in an operation in the area in early May, five marines were killed after their tank rolled over a mine that had been set for vehicles with large distances between the treads.

In Karabila, marines picked their way through empty houses over the past four days, looking in closets and behind closed doors, into the hidden lives of insurgents who had left behind caches of weapons, medical supplies and Jihadist literature, including an inspirational guide that attempted to justify beheading by using Islamic scripture.

As the operation ended about 6 p.m. Monday, marines, successful in their mission, lined the roof of the last house they took against the backdrop of plumes of smoke. Captain Ieva said: "Will some come back? Yes. But the bigger fruit is disrupting them. We've made them uncomfortable in their own system."

amdaily 06-23-2005 06:35 PM
hxxp://www.almendhar.com/almendharen/details.aspx?nID=4050

Quote:
Drinkable Water Returns to Baghdad’s Districts

Baghdad: Tomorrow, the operations of pumping water in Al Karkh complex would be gradually increased towards its final capacities, while citizens would feel a relative improvement in the flow of water to the pipes of their houses today. Within the same context, the National Assembly has announced the postponement of its meeting and has warned the health ministry of the existence of impurities in the water.

The media spokesman in Baghdad municipality said that various teams have been alerted to handle the heavy damages, which resulted from a sabotage act that targeted the pipe, which transports water to the main tanks in various Baghdad regions in Al Karkh accumulator in Al Taji, whose control room has also been subject to destruction due to the explosion, which increased the damages. This is because this room is responsible for distributing amounts of water to the tanks and the regions, which are fed by the accumulator responsible for securing water in the majority of regions in Baghdad, including Al Rasafa that is known for its small tanks and also depending on Al Karkh accumulator.

Yesterday, Baghdad water administration has executed trial pumping for two hours, from 6 to 8 p.m. to see the flow of water in the secondary ground pipes in various regions of Baghdad, including Al Karkh.

It is well known that Baghdad needs more than 3 million liters of water a day and that it originally suffers from a daily shortage of one million and 300 thousand liters.

On his behalf, Dr. Watheq Mohamed Yunis, manager of health control in the health ministry has called citizens to resort to boiling or sterilizing water before drinking. He pointed out that the pollution rates in water before sabotage were high and that they would certainly increase after the return of water to the pipes, as when citizens operate the water pumps, they would pull quantities of ground water and the originally existing leaks in the ground.

rexallllsc 06-23-2005 06:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by amdaily
hxxp://www.almendhar.com/almendharen/details.aspx?nID=4050

Point?

rexallllsc 06-23-2005 06:46 PM
hxxpp://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/06/23/iraq/main703744.shtml

Quote:
Top General: Insurgency Not Fading

WASHINGTON, June 23, 2005

(CBS/AP) The top American military commander in the Persian Gulf disputed a contention by Vice President Dick Cheney that the Iraqi insurgency was in its "last throes" and told Congress on Thursday its strength was basically undiminished from six months ago.

Furthermore, Gen. John Abizaid told the Senate Armed Services Committee, "I believe there are more foreign fighters coming into Iraq than there were six months ago."

His testimony came as Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld rejected any effort to set a timetable to get U.S. troops out of Iraq, reports CBS News Correspondent Bob Fuss

"That would be a mistake," Rumsfeld told the Senate panel. He said Americans just have to stay the course and ignore the naysayers.

In a CNN interview last month, Cheney said: "The level of activity that we see today from a military standpoint, I think, will clearly decline. I think they're in the last throes, if you will, of the insurgency."

Sen. Carl Levin of Michigan, the committee's senior Democrat, asked Abizaid if he realized he was contradicting Cheney.

"I don't know that I would make any comment about that other than to say there's a lot of work to be done," said Abizaid. "I gave you my opinion."

Levin and other congressional Democrats — and some Republicans as well — have criticized administration officials for painting an unrealistically rosy picture of the situation in Iraq.

"The fact is that the insurgency has not weakened," Levin said. "Our men and women in uniform are serving with great honor. They deserve an objective assessment of the situation in Iraq. They deserve a clear layout of the next steps there."

"They're not getting either from the administration," Levin said.

For his part, Rumsfeld sought to explain what Cheney meant.

Between now and when an Iraqi constitution is drafted and voted on later this year, "They may very well be in their last throes by their own view cause they recognize how important it will be if the lose," he said.

Of Cheney's words specifically, Rumsfeld added: "While I didn't use them and I might not use them, I think it's understandable that we can expect that kind of a response from the enemy."

Testifying on the progress in training Iraq's own security forces, Rumsfeld said these forces have "a way to go," but progress was being made.

"Success will not be easy and it will require patience. ... But consider what has been accomplished in 12 months," Rumsfeld said, citing elections in January, economic improvements, and an increasingly improving security force.

"Timing in war is never predictable. There are never guarantees," Rumsfeld said. "Those who say we are losing this war are wrong. We are not."

Rumsfeld engaged in some contentious exchanges with committee Democrats.

"Isn't it time for you to resign?" Sen. Edward M. Kennedy, D-Mass., asked the defense secretary, citing what he called "gross errors and mistakes" in the U.S. military campaign in Iraq.

"I've offered my resignation to the president twice," Rumsfeld shot back, saying that President Bush had decided not to accept it. "That's his call," he said.

Edit: Kennedy asking someone else to resign is comical in it's own way.

Joe 06-23-2005 06:47 PM
after doing a search of all 3 articles, I didn't see Cheney's name appear once. The title is a bit misleading. What did he say and when did he say it?

Joe 06-23-2005 06:48 PM
ok, thanks for posting that 4th one.

Dutch 06-23-2005 07:01 PM
Do you ever get the feeling that the media is trying to get us to fight with each other?

rexallllsc 06-23-2005 07:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dutch
Do you ever get the feeling that the media is trying to get us to fight with each other?

Not really, no.

Dutch 06-23-2005 09:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rexallllsc
Not really, no.

Obviously.

sterlingice 06-23-2005 10:09 PM
Wait..?



SI

Easy Mac 06-23-2005 10:11 PM
Throes is a great word... its either used in war or passion.

Glengoyne 06-23-2005 10:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by sterlingice
Wait..?



SI

Don't get me started!

Been there done that, oh and I read the speech too.

Glengoyne 06-23-2005 10:23 PM
Typically when I hear the vice president say things like that I'd want to gain from it some self assurance or hope. However given this VPs predeliction for fanciful overstatement, I'll just hold out with the hope that the government will take root, and that reasoned minds will win the day. The alternative, I guess is to be Rexall, who actually seems to be hoping that Iraq falls to pieces, just because he wants the president to be wrong.

NoMyths 06-23-2005 10:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glengoyne
Typically when I hear the vice president say things like that I'd want to gain from it some self assurance or hope. However given this VPs predeliction for fanciful overstatement, I'll just hold out with the hope that the government will take root, and that reasoned minds will win the day. The alternative, I guess is to be Rexall, who actually seems to be hoping that Iraq falls to pieces, just because he wants the president to be wrong.
So let me get this straight...you're arguing that the "reasoned minds" are the ones predisposed to lying ("fanciful overstatement")?

Radii 06-23-2005 10:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dutch
Do you ever get the feeling that the media is trying to get us to fight with each other?


In many cases yes, but not for why you seem to be saying so. It has nothing to do with liberal or conservative bias, but rather TV Ratings. Each network has to be more sensational than the other to get the ratings. One of the best ways to do that is to turn non stories into extrodinarily inflammatory reports. Fox, CNN, the NY Times, they all seem pretty good at that, and because of it they're all pretty irrelevant in my mind.


In this case I get the feeling that the administration has rather adamantly said one thing and top army officials have said something quite contradictory and that's enough to get us to fight without media bias on either side. I'm sure I could go watch CNN or Fox and be spoon fed some horseshit from people who try to tell me what I'm supposed to believe to become even more annoyed and baffled, but in this case the very simple, plain facts are quite enough.

You are on quite a crusade against "the media" Dutch, it's really rather strange. Sometimes facts exist. As a self proclaimed moderate, I feel like my job as an intelligent US Citizen is to read foxnews, and to read CNN, and to listen to NPR, and do my best to filter out the bullshit and slanted commentary and just read the facts and form my own opinion. Its possible. Mainstream America can't do it. Mainstream America is full of morons who demand to be spoon fed. But I think we're all smarter than that, and your one liners on the evils of the media (but seemingly only when the media reports something that isn't exactly what conservatives want to be true) don't help in the matter.



Don't you think it's at least mildly interesting that our Vice President makes such a statement about the insurgency in Iraq and soon after a top Army General goes to the Senate and basically says that the truth is an absolute 180 about face from what the VP says? Bullshit removed, those are facts, and I find them interesting and worthy of discussion.


I'm not a nutjob who says we're losing the war, but I am saying "I told you so" to a lot of people who supported the president and fell into the trap believing this was an easy job and we'd be in and out in 2 months. I think what's happening now was extremely easy to see coming. Now that we're there, we're doing everything right IMO, and things are progressing, but don't bullshit me with some rosy picture about a defeated enemy that can barely terrorize Iraqis anymore.

Flasch186 06-23-2005 10:54 PM
i hope Cheneyis right, and I didn't read any of the above articles :)

CamEdwards 06-23-2005 10:55 PM
I'm not sure why "red on red" would be seen as anything other than a good sign. After all, some of the terrorists appear to be angry at the foreign fighters coming into Iraq and blowing civilians to hell.

If those terrorists are now fighting other terrorists instead of our troops, doesn't that a) reduce the number of terrorists that are alive and b) lead to the possibility of some of the native-born terrorists changing their minds about how they've been going about trying to enact change?

There were a couple of other stories that rexalll didn't point out that, while not indications that the insurgency is in its "last throes", are still interesting stories.

The first is the capture of Mohammed Khalif Shaiker, one of the bigger terrorists in Iraq. He was captured with the help of local civilians in the area. More info can be found here:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/17/in...17zarqawi.html

The second bit of news the inclusion of 15 Sunni Muslims on the panel that is drafting Iraq's new constitution. Unfortunately, one of those Sunnis was killed in a car bombing recently, and al Zarqawi is taking the credit for the assassination. He realizes that if the Sunni feel they have a legitimate voice in a new Iraq, it further erodes support for terrorist activity.

Certainly Iraq isn't a peaceful place today, but from what I've read it is getting better, and with the recent elections in Lebanon and the crackdown on a democratic movement in Iran (not to mention the recent protests in Syria of all places), you'd have to admit that there are now millions of people in the Middle East who realize democracy is possible for them as well.

rexallllsc 06-24-2005 12:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glengoyne
The alternative, I guess is to be Rexall, who actually seems to be hoping that Iraq falls to pieces, just because he wants the president to be wrong.

I don't want Iraq to fall to pieces, and I wish our government wasn't so crooked. I don't know how you'd gather otherwise.

rexallllsc 06-24-2005 12:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CamEdwards
I'm not sure why "red on red" would be seen as anything other than a good sign. After all, some of the terrorists appear to be angry at the foreign fighters coming into Iraq and blowing civilians to hell.

Why? It could be the beginning of a civil war.

Quote:
If those terrorists are now fighting other terrorists instead of our troops, doesn't that a) reduce the number of terrorists that are alive and b) lead to the possibility of some of the native-born terrorists changing their minds about how they've been going about trying to enact change?

From an article above: "Gen. John Abizaid told the Senate Armed Services Committee, "I believe there are more foreign fighters coming into Iraq than there were six months ago.""

Quote:
There were a couple of other stories that rexalll didn't point out that, while not indications that the insurgency is in its "last throes", are still interesting stories.

The first is the capture of Mohammed Khalif Shaiker, one of the bigger terrorists in Iraq. He was captured with the help of local civilians in the area. More info can be found here:

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/17/in...17zarqawi.html

Good to hear.

Quote:
Certainly Iraq isn't a peaceful place today, but from what I've read it is getting better

I guess I'm just reading things differently.

Glengoyne 06-24-2005 02:03 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoMyths
So let me get this straight...you're arguing that the "reasoned minds" are the ones predisposed to lying ("fanciful overstatement")?

Well no the reasoned minds that I hope win the day are among the thousands of Iraqis that risked their lives to vote last year. They are among the Iraqis that risk their lives by taking jobs as police officers. They are among the Iraqis who wish to play a role in reshaping their country.

As for a predisposition for "lying"...Cheney may be given to fanciful overstatement, but you really can't call someone a liar for stating their opinion.

NoMyths 06-24-2005 02:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glengoyne
As for a predisposition for "lying"...Cheney may be given to fanciful overstatement, but you really can't call someone a liar for stating their opinion.
You can if their stated opinion is a lie. Or are you arguing that a "fanciful overstatement" isn't a lie? Because, after all, both he and General Abizaid can't be correct, and one of them is aware that he's giving false information.

MrBigglesworth 06-24-2005 02:56 AM
The funniest part of Cheney's 'last throes' comment was McClellan trying to spin it:
Quote:
Q Scott, is the insurgency in Iraq in its 'last throes'?

McCLELLAN: Terry, you have a desperate group of terrorists in Iraq that are doing everything they can to try to derail the transition to democracy. The Iraqi people have made it clear that they want a free and democratic and peaceful future. And that's why we're doing everything we can, along with other countries, to support the Iraqi people as they move forward....

Q But the insurgency is in its last throes?

McCLELLAN: The Vice President talked about that the other day -- you have a desperate group of terrorists who recognize how high the stakes are in Iraq. A free Iraq will be a significant blow to their ambitions.

Q But they're killing more Americans, they're killing more Iraqis. That's the last throes?

McCLELLAN: Innocent -- I say innocent civilians. And it doesn't take a lot of people to cause mass damage when you're willing to strap a bomb onto yourself, get in a car and go and attack innocent civilians. That's the kind of people that we're dealing with. That's what I say when we're talking about a determined enemy.

Q Right. What is the evidence that the insurgency is in its last throes?

McCLELLAN: I think I just explained to you the desperation of terrorists and their tactics.

Q What's the evidence on the ground that it's being extinguished?

McCLELLAN: Terry, we're making great progress to defeat the terrorist and regime elements. You're seeing Iraqis now playing more of a role in addressing the security threats that they face. They're working side by side with our coalition forces. They're working on their own. There are a lot of special forces in Iraq that are taking the battle to the enemy in Iraq. And so this is a period when they are in a desperate mode.

Q Well, I'm just wondering what the metric is for measuring the defeat of the insurgency.

McCLELLAN: Well, you can go back and look at the Vice President's remarks. I think he talked about it.

Q Yes. Is there any idea how long a 'last throe' lasts for?

McCLELLAN: Go ahead, Steve....

Classic. McClellan must have the worst job in the world right now. Would you want to be him right now? It seems like the press now smells some blood in the water. and we may have an aggressive press for the first time since at least 9/11, and all it took were approval ratings nearing the thirties and the defeat of almost every major undertaking by the administration since the election, despite majorities in both houses.

rexallllsc 06-24-2005 03:58 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBigglesworth
The funniest part of Cheney's 'last throes' comment was McClellan trying to spin it:

Classic. McClellan must have the worst job in the world right now. Would you want to be him right now? It seems like the press now smells some blood in the water. and we may have an aggressive press for the first time since at least 9/11, and all it took were approval ratings nearing the thirties and the defeat of almost every major undertaking by the administration since the election, despite majorities in both houses.


"Q Yes. Is there any idea how long a 'last throe' lasts for?"

lol

Bee 06-24-2005 06:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by rexallllsc
"Q Yes. Is there any idea how long a 'last throe' lasts for?"

lol

About 10 seconds for me last night.

flere-imsaho 06-24-2005 09:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Glengoyne
The alternative, I guess is to be Rexall, who actually seems to be hoping that Iraq falls to pieces, just because he wants the president to be wrong.

Hey, throw in a Nazi reference and you could be Karl Rove!

flere-imsaho 06-24-2005 10:07 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CamEdwards
If those terrorists are now fighting other terrorists instead of our troops, doesn't that a) reduce the number of terrorists that are alive and b) lead to the possibility of some of the native-born terrorists changing their minds about how they've been going about trying to enact change?

The point you're missing is that the root of this violence is in sectarian conflict. Sectarian conflict which had been repressed for decades by Hussein. Thus, this is not a simple situation where the terrorists are going to go away via attrition. What it is, is the start of a sectarian civil war, in which terrorists and terrorism will be a large part of the equation.

Quote:
The second bit of news the inclusion of 15 Sunni Muslims on the panel that is drafting Iraq's new constitution. Unfortunately, one of those Sunnis was killed in a car bombing recently, and al Zarqawi is taking the credit for the assassination. He realizes that if the Sunni feel they have a legitimate voice in a new Iraq, it further erodes support for terrorist activity.


The point you're missing here is that to a large number of Shiites, it's just dandy if the Sunnis don't take part in the process, because the process can then favor the Shiites. Also, it should be pointed out that it's not just Al-Zarqawi and his minions who are killing Sunnis.

By the way, how can you be so sure you know what Al-Zarqawi's thinking?

Certainly Iraq isn't a peaceful place today, but from what I've read it is getting better[/quote]

Odd. From yesterday's hearing on Capitol Hill:

Quote:
Sen. John McCain, an Arizona Republican, said he had been briefed by military officials who said that both attacks and casualties have increased. There has been a spike in civilian casualties in Iraq, and May was one of the deadliest months for U.S. soldiers, officials have said, estimating that attacks are averaging about 60 per day.

But Gen. George W. Casey Jr., the top American commander in Iraq, responded that the insurgency is "localized," most of the country is relatively peaceful, and that attacks, compared with a year ago, are about the same.

"If they're up, it's only slightly. It's not significant," Casey said.

"But the fact that it's not significantly down isn't encouraging to me," said McCain.

Link

flere-imsaho 06-24-2005 10:29 AM

Warhammer 06-24-2005 11:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by flere-imsaho
The point you're missing is that the root of this violence is in sectarian conflict. Sectarian conflict which had been repressed for decades by Hussein. Thus, this is not a simple situation where the terrorists are going to go away via attrition. What it is, is the start of a sectarian civil war, in which terrorists and terrorism will be a large part of the equation.

No, you're missing the point that the foreign terrorists and national terrorists are fighting each other. That is not a civil war. That is the national terrorists fighting all perceived oppressors. That is a good thing, because they realize that the bigger enemy may now be the very people they had been working with.

Quote:
Originally Posted by flere-imsaho
The point you're missing here is that to a large number of Shiites, it's just dandy if the Sunnis don't take part in the process, because the process can then favor the Shiites. Also, it should be pointed out that it's not just Al-Zarqawi and his minions who are killing Sunnis.

You're right, just like there are tons of people here that don't think Hispanics, blacks, lower class whites, Asians, or others should take part in the political process. However, the government of a state is not determined solely by the sub-groups of the government, but by the elected officials.

What is important here though, is that Zarqawi, who claimed to be there to help Iraq get rid of the US forces is now blowing up some of the same people he was supposedly there to help. That is the point, regardless of who else is killing Sunnis.

flere-imsaho 06-24-2005 11:06 AM
More Cheney Bullshit:

Quote:
WASHINGTON (CNN) -- Vice President Dick Cheney on Thursday defended his recent comment that the Iraqi insurgency was in its "last throes," insisting that progress being made in setting up a new Iraqi government and establishing democracy there will indeed end the violence -- eventually.

However, in an exclusive interview with CNN's Wolf Blitzer, Cheney said he thinks there still will be"a lot of bloodshed" in the coming months, as the insurgents try to stop the move toward democracy in Iraq.

"If you look at what the dictionary says about throes, it can still be a violent period, the throes of a revolution," he said. "The point would be that the conflict will be intense, but it's intense because the terrorists understand that if we're successful at accomplishing our objective -- standing up a democracy in Iraq -- that that's a huge defeat for them.

Sounds like a backpedal to me. All you Republicans who chastised Clinton for the definition of "is", time to eat some pie here.

Quote:
"We will succeed in Iraq, just like we did in Afghanistan. We will stand up a new government under an Iraqi-drafted constitution. We will defeat that insurgency, and, in fact, it will be an enormous success story."

Just like "they'll greet us with flowers", I'm sure.

And we've "succeeded" in Afghanistan? Has he even read the recent reports from that country? Does he even care?

Quote:
A recent surge in fighting has raised fears that an Iraq-style quagmire is developing in Afghanistan just months ahead of key legislative elections.

American fighter planes bombarded a southern Afghanistan rebel hide-out with missiles and bombs Tuesday, killing up to 76 insurgents in one of the deadliest single clashes since the Taliban's ouster in 2001.

At least 12 Afghan police and soldiers also died in the fighting and five U.S. troops were wounded.

Cheney also said Bush administration officials "don't pay a lot of attention" to polls showing declining public support among Americans for the Iraq war.

"The last thing you want to do is to read the latest poll and then base policy on that," he said. "Presidents are generally ineffective if they spend all their time reading the polls and trying to make policy accordingly.

Typical Cheney superiority complex. Maybe, Dick, Americans are tired of having their fellow citizens slaughtered in a war you lied to us about and they no longer believe you when you say it'll all be over soon.

Quote:
Gitmo detainees 'living in the tropics'
"We are doing what we believe is right. We're convinced it's right. We're convinced that in fact we'll achieve our objectives."

The vice president also told Blitzer that "we've got a pretty good idea of the general area" where al Qaeda mastermind Osama bin Laden is hiding, but he said, "I don't have the street address."

Asked to identify the general area, Cheney demurred, saying he wouldn't talk about intelligence matters. Pressed on when bin Laden might be captured, he said, "What, do you expect me to say: Three weeks from next Tuesday?"

"I'm convinced eventually we'll get him," he said.

Cheney also rejected calls for closing the detention facility for terror suspects at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, saying the inmates there "are serious, deadly threats" who will "go back to trying to kill Americans" if they are released.

Except for the ones who are farmers & taxi drivers, one supposes.

Quote:
He also defended the treatment of prisoners by the U.S. military at Guantanamo, telling Blitzer, "There isn't any other nation in the world that would treat people who were determined to kill Americans the way we're treating these people."

Well, except North Korea, Iran, Saudi Arabia, Indonesia, Syria, Zimbabwe, Sudan, etc....

Quote:
"They're living in the tropics. They're well fed. They've got everything they could possibly want," the vice president said.

Yeah, it's fucking Club Med down there, Dick.

Quote:
Cheney compared the current situation in Iraq to the last months of World War II, when Germans launched a desperate offensive in the Battle of the Bulge and the Japanese offered stiff resistance on Okinawa.

You've got to be kidding me. This is what happens when you get a White House staffed with guys who have no experience fighting wars and only a passing knowledge of history.

[quote]He said the insurgents will "do everything they can to disrupt" the process of building an Iraqi government, "but I think we're strong enough to defeat them."

The vice president declined to put a timeline on when American forces might be able to leave Iraq. But asked about an assessment by Iraqi President Jalal Talabani that the United States might begin significantly reducing troop levels in 2006, Cheney said, "I hope he's correct."

"There will probably be a continued U.S. presence there for some considerable period of time, because there are some things we do they can't do -- for example, air support, some of our intelligence, communications and logistics capabilities," he said. "But I think the bulk of the effort will increasingly be taken on by Iraqi forces."

Cheney also said he thought Sen. Chuck Hagel of Nebraska, a fellow Republican, was "wrong" when he told U.S. News and World Report the White House was "disconnected from reality" about how the situation was deteriorating in Iraq.

Quote:
"Washington has got a lot of people in it who were armchair quarterbacks or who like to comment on the passing scene," he said. "But those who have predicted the demise of our efforts since 9/11 -- as we have fought the war on terror, as we have liberated 50 million people in Iraq and Afghanistan -- did not know what they were talking about."

If there ever was a poster boy for "armchair quarterback", it's Dick "I had other priorities" Cheney.

Quote:
Cheney said he had not read the so-called "Downing Street memo," a document written by a British official in the fall of 2002 suggesting that President Bush had already decided to remove Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein, and that U.S. officials were over hyping intelligence about Iraq's weapons of mass destruction to build support for the policy.

There's a surprise, given that this White House doesn't seem to read anything that goes against their pre-ordained ideas anyway.

Quote:
However, the vice president said the premise of the memo -- that a decision to go to war had been made months before the March 2003 invasion -- was "wrong."

The mind boggles.

Quote:
"Remember what happened after the supposed memo was written. We went to the United Nations. We got a unanimous vote out of the Security Council for a resolution calling on Saddam Hussein to come clean," he said.

"The president of the United States took advantage of every possibility to try to resolve this without having to use military force. It wasn't possible in this case."

Bullshit.

MalcPow 06-24-2005 11:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by flere-imsaho
The point you're missing is that the root of this violence is in sectarian conflict. Sectarian conflict which had been repressed for decades by Hussein. Thus, this is not a simple situation where the terrorists are going to go away via attrition. What it is, is the start of a sectarian civil war, in which terrorists and terrorism will be a large part of the equation.

Obviously the sectarian tension among the Iraqi populous is an issue, but I think the particular "red on red" violence that we're seeing today is what the article describes, foreign jihadists vs. Iraqi nationalists. This isn't a "civil war." It's Iraqi nationalists rejecting jihadist violence against their own citizens, which is a good thing. The Sunni/Shiite/Kurd problem among Iraqis themselves is going to be something the country struggles with for a long time, but groups concerned with their own brand of Iraqi nationalism rejecting blind jihadism is a healthy development for the security situation. It's not the last throes of anything obviously, but Cheney has a right to spout his opinions and there are a number of people in the Pentagon that agree with him, it's just not a story to get quotes from them.

flere-imsaho 06-24-2005 11:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MalcPow
The Sunni/Shiite/Kurd problem among Iraqis themselves is going to be something the country struggles with for a long time, but groups concerned with their own brand of Iraqi nationalism rejecting blind jihadism is a healthy development for the security situation.

One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter, eh?

Open your eyes, guys, you're seeing the start of a sectarian Civil War. Foreign terrorists are picking the sides they see the most long-term use in, and Iraqi nationalists are using terrorist techniques to achieve their ends.

Your "bright future" where Iraqi nationalists drive out foreign terrorists and settle down to a peaceful democracy is slipping further and further away. The actions of the Shiite elected officials in the majority to not include Sunnis, and the actions of the Sunnis to reluctantly agree to work in the process is the real point you're all missing.

Qwikshot 06-24-2005 11:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CamEdwards
I'm not sure why "red on red" would be seen as anything other than a good sign. After all, some of the terrorists appear to be angry at the foreign fighters coming into Iraq and blowing civilians to hell.
.

It won't be a good thing if the foreign fighters win.

MalcPow 06-24-2005 11:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by flere-imsaho
One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter, eh?

Open your eyes, guys, you're seeing the start of a sectarian Civil War. Foreign terrorists are picking the sides they see the most long-term use in, and Iraqi nationalists are using terrorist techniques to achieve their ends.

Your "bright future" where Iraqi nationalists drive out foreign terrorists and settle down to a peaceful democracy is slipping further and further away. The actions of the Shiite elected officials in the majority to not include Sunnis, and the actions of the Sunnis to reluctantly agree to work in the process is the real point you're all missing.

Did you read this part of the article?

Quote:
"There is a rift," said the official, who requested anonymity, citing the sensitivity of the talks he had held. "I'm certain that the nationalist Iraqi part of the insurgency is very much fed up with the Jihadists grabbing the headlines and carrying out the sort of violence that they don't want against innocent civilians."

The nationalist insurgent groups, "are giving a lot of signals implying that there should be a settlement with the Americans," while the Jihadists have a purely ideological agenda, he added.

Insurgents interested in settlement versus blind jihadist violence. One is better than the other, accept that.

sterlingice 06-24-2005 12:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Easy Mac
Throes is a great word... its either used in war or passion.

Ok, so I've heard "throes of passion" before, too but now I'm trying to figure out how it fits in here:

throe ( P ) Pronunciation Key (thr)
n.
  1. A severe pang or spasm of pain, as in childbirth. See Synonyms at pain.
  2. throes A condition of agonizing struggle or trouble: a country in the throes of economic collapse.
SI

flere-imsaho 06-25-2005 04:13 PM
Safer Vehicles for Soldiers: A Tale of Delays and Glitches

A short excerpt:

Quote:
When Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld visited Iraq last year to tour the Abu Ghraib prison camp, military officials did not rely on a government-issued Humvee to transport him safely on the ground. Instead, they turned to Halliburton, the oil services contractor, which lent the Pentagon a rolling fortress of steel called the Rhino Runner.

State Department officials traveling in Iraq use armored vehicles that are built with V-shaped hulls to better deflect bullets and bombs. Members of Congress favor another model, called the M1117, which can endure 12-pound explosives and .50-caliber armor-piercing rounds.

My brother's company, who will deploy to Iraq in July, are still uncertain as to whether they'll have armored vehicles when they start their tour of duty.

dawgfan 06-25-2005 05:41 PM
Quote:
When Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld visited Iraq last year to tour the Abu Ghraib prison camp, military officials did not rely on a government-issued Humvee to transport him safely on the ground. Instead, they turned to Halliburton, the oil services contractor, which lent the Pentagon a rolling fortress of steel called the Rhino Runner.

[/QState Department officials traveling in Iraq use armored vehicles that are built with V-shaped hulls to better deflect bullets and bombs. Members of Congress favor another model, called the M1117, which can endure 12-pound explosives and .50-caliber armor-piercing rounds.

All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.

flere-imsaho 06-27-2005 08:52 AM
Since the Administration is so enamored with WWII analogies:

Days between Pearl Harbor & the Defeat of Japan: 1,365

Days since 9/11 with bin Laden still not captured: 1,380

SFL Cat 06-27-2005 09:51 AM
gee flere...I'm surprised you aren't placing "happy dance" icons in your rants...er...posts

dawgfan 06-27-2005 10:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SFL Cat
gee flere...I'm surprised you aren't placing "happy dance" icons in your rants...er...posts

:rolleyes:

SFL Cat 06-27-2005 10:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgfan
:rolleyes:

No, not quite what I was looking for...we don't really have an appropriate "happy dance" smiley...so I suppose this one will have to do...
:D

Swaggs 06-27-2005 10:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgfan
:rolleyes:

Don't you know that if your not "fer it" then you are "agin it?" ;)

SFL Cat 06-27-2005 10:59 AM
No, it just irritates me that people take such obvious delight in bad news, especially when it means American soldier's lives are at risk.

I despised Bill Clinton, but not to the point where I hoped his excursions into Haiti and Bosnia would blow up in his face just to cause the Democrats bad political fallout.

flere-imsaho 06-27-2005 11:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by dawgfan
:rolleyes:

I have a feeling it was a good idea I added SFL Cat to my ignore list a while ago. He's probably just accused me of wanting my brother to get blown up, right?

Swaggs 06-27-2005 11:37 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SFL Cat
No, it just irritates me that people take such obvious delight in bad news, especially when it means American soldier's lives are at risk.

I despised Bill Clinton, but not to the point where I hoped his excursions into Haiti and Bosnia would blow up in his face just to cause the Democrats bad political fallout.

Do you honestly believe that the anti-war crowd take delight in soldiers' deaths? I rather doubt you do.

For folks like myself who have been against the war from the get-go, it is more of a feeling of hopelessness. This wasn't something that I thought we should do because there is probably no chance of a long-term happy ending in this for us. Now we hear about Americans dying nearly every day and it is just plain sad.

dawgfan 06-27-2005 11:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SFL Cat
No, it just irritates me that people take such obvious delight in bad news, especially when it means American soldier's lives are at risk.

Are you really this delusional? Please point out where flere is taking 'delight' in this news? In fact, I'm quite sure he's 100% the opposite of delighted and is in fact exceedingly pissed-off about this news, hence why he's harping on it.

MrBigglesworth 06-27-2005 11:44 AM
There once was a kindergarten class trapped in a burning building. "Help them!" said one man, "They could all die in there! We need to get them out of there!"

Said the man next to him, "Why don't you support our kindergarteners?"

SFL Cat 06-27-2005 01:34 PM
I simply don't want to see Vietnam repeat itself. Every time some fanatic straps a bomb to himself and blows up civilians and/or soldiers, anti-war politicos take the opportunity to jump in front of the TV cameras and start undermining our military efforts -- you don't think Al Jazeera loves playing that sh*t? You don't think the terrorists start high-fiving and saying, "we just keep this up a little longer, the gutless Americans will run away just like they always do."

I wonder if the media was like it is now back during WWII if we would have even won the damn thing. We lost more soldiers on Nomandy Beach during one day of fighting than we have during the first Gulf War, Afghanistan and Iraq combined. I wonder if Teddy Kennedy, of "Sheets" Byrd would have asked FDR to resign for his gross mishandling and misplanning of an invasion that cost us so many soldier's lives?

For those of us who have friends and relatives over there, yeah it's scary and tough. But unlike the last time (Desert Storm), let them finish the job so our kids and grandkids don't have to go back over there again 15-20 years down the road.

There once was a kindergarten class trapped in a burning building. "Help them!" said one man, "They could all die in there! We need to get them out of there!"

Quote:
There once was a kindergarten class trapped in a burning building. "Help them!" said one man, "They could all die in there! We need to get them out of there!"

Said the man next to him, "Why don't you support our kindergarteners?"

That is the most goddamn asinine analogy I've seen on this board. Congrats.

MrBigglesworth 06-27-2005 01:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SFL Cat
I simply don't want to see Vietnam repeat itself.
Ah now I see, it was the media's fault that we lost Vietnam :rolleyes:

And cogent analysis on the analogy.

SFL Cat 06-27-2005 01:45 PM
The media was a factor, yes.


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