OT - FOFC poker update
 

Several weeks ago, you couldn't swing a dead cat around here without smacking some clown yammering on about his poker games (myself included). Now, the discussion (at least) has died down... I'm curious if the fad has passed, or we've just stopped talking about it.


Here's my update, on several fronts:

After a reasonably successful trip to Vegas (where Mrs. Q out-earned her hubby, over the course of about 20 hours each), I've been pretty motivated to keep at it... and work my way up to the more serious tables at the casinos. I think my limit game is ready for the next step.

My "friendly" game that I've played in for years is on the verge of breaking up, in part after introducing a few hold 'em tournements into the mix. After tasting the tournemnt style of play, a few guys are reluctant to go back to the haphazard "dealer's choice" stuff we traditionally play. We'll see.

A recent game I have joined, playing a decent hold 'em tournament, has really caught on-- they are now getting well over 20 players every offering. it's recently scaled back to biweekly rather than weekly, but it looks like a very healthy game. My second-place finish almost made me the first two-time winner, but getting a $360 second prize wasn't bad.

I am also working on my higher limit game, playing more no limit and high spread limit games than before. This requires a lot of adjustment from the simple fixed limit style of play, but I honestly think that a cash game is really my best setting, all told. I'm finding a fair number of games at spread limits of $2-10/$4-10 around (also hold 'em) and am doing well at almost every sitting.

However, all is not rosy. Despite having flashes of good success, I have been unable to really boost my balance in my Party Poker account. I have done fairly well in tournaments, and feel like I'm a plus player in all settings - but I have been on an awful streak in no limit tables, and my balance is just about where it was two months ago, despite many hours of play there. I do sometimes get too itchy in the sit-n-go tournaments (violating the cardinal rule of small tournament play) but I suspect I am overestimating my skill, since the balance isn't headed up as rapidly as I might have expected.


Anyone else care to share an update? How are we doing?

After boucing around in limits and play styles, moving from Limit Omaha ring to No Limit Hold'em ring to sit-'n-go's, and not seeing any gains from it, I've settled down for the moment, playing 2 simultaneous microlimit $.50/$1 games, more for the psychological gains than monetary gains. After a lousy stretch of luck and, frankly, less than stellar strategic play, I'm on the road to regaining my confidence and ablities. I may move up in limit again soon, but I'm not rushing myself.

I stopped playing for about seven weeks, after a really bad afternoon where I just started throwing money away in a tantrum. My $300 winnings on party poker when down to about $120 in a couple of hours.

Now I'm playing strictly tournament play on Poker Stars. I'm up about $130 after around 3 weeks. Still plugging along.

I just had a new baby, but have been able to spend sometime at Party Poker. After losing a $100.00, I added another $100 to my account and tightened my style of play. I play mainly at the $1-2 6 man tables for hold-em and have increased that second investment of $100.00 to just over $400.00. I felt that I was seeing to many of the flops before and decided that I would be more selective in the hands I played. I have also become more aggresive in my initial betting and raise a lot more. This has worked out for me greatly. I have not had a losing day since my son was born on Oct 2. I have also stopped playing at the tournament tables altogether. This was not due to losing, but due to time restraints in my sons feedings. I am hoping to go to the Indian casino in the next couple of weeks and try this new style of play in front of others and at a 4-6 hour stretch. I will keep you posted on how this works out. Good luck to you all.

i got into no-limit hold'em with a few friends every week. after four weeks, im almost exactly even (first two games i lost a little over 20 bucks, third week won a little over 20 bucks, last week broke even exactly).

they were my first four games ever, and i have the hang of it to where i can consistently make money from my friends, who all suck. i suck too, but less than them. if i hadnt thrown away ten bucks betting on a full hosue against when turned out to be a four of a kind . . . damn . . .

I love hold 'em poker. About 10 years ago I had to work a charity casino for my hockey team and that's where I first saw the game. Fell in love instantly. But, I'm not much of a gambler...so, I've never sat down at a table and played...not for real money anyways.

I've played online for fun...but, it isn't all that fun...everybody just raises and raises, there is no strategy involved.

Any tips for a newcomer in terms of strategy and where to start playing?? Also, keeping in mind that I'm a cheap bastard...how much money do I need to start with??

Since starting online I'm up about $800 (over like 5-6 months), but I haven't played for a week or so. I'm thinking about cashing out since I've somewhat lost interest and it's not really worth it to spend the amount of time needed to make a few hundred dollars. I figure if I calculated it out, I'd have been making about $4 an hour or something ridiculous like that.

I'd been playing Partypoker regularly over the last month to not all that much success. The basic fact I've learned about my current play is that I'm a much better tournament player.

The exact opposite of Quik, I get very "itchy" during cash games. I think there is something about me mentally that needs to see the "finish line" that a tournament provides (single or multi-table). It allows me to calm down a bit more, and really focus my play. Different games for different people I suppose.

3 days ago I decided to give Poker Stars a try instead of partypoker (which has had some major server issues over the last week and a half). I don't know whether it's a hot streak, a difference in the quality of players or what, but I've been on fire since playing Poker Stars.

Anyway, I've played in 5 tournaments since joining Poker Stars and have placed 1, 2, 2, 4 in single-table tournaments, and 1st in a 2 table tournament, and i'm up significantly financially since joining there. In the money 4 out of 5 times, and dominating 3 of the tournaments. Ive felt really, really good about my play since signing up there.

I've been really working hard to improve my game, reading everything I can get my hands on (over and over), and tryed to play as much as I can. My game has improved significantly in the last month, and I couldn't be happier.

on the sites themselves:

Poker Stars has a clunkier interface that takes a tad of adjusting to. The game moves a tad slower (a positive in my opinion) and the tables are 9 rather than 10 players (another plus in tournament play, IMO). I guess the choice of your visual representation is nice too, although immaterial really.

Poker Stars has 2 table tournaments which is great for me, it's exactly the type of thing I prefer. The negatives are the waits to get tournaments going. On partypoker, single-table tournaments fill in literally 1 minute, It can take 5-10 for single table tournaments on Pokerstars, and much longer for 2 table tournaments.

About 5-8 of my family get together at picnics to play and occasionally we schedule non-picnic poker nights. Nickle, dime, quarter dealer's choice stuff. It really is a great excuse to shoot-the-shit and make fun of each other.

A while back we started playing once a month, and then my uncle found out he had cancer and has since passed away. A series of deaths in the family has put a bit of a damper on the situation (as well as life getting in the way), but when you have Beer, Family, and Cards in the mix, there is fun to be had.

I cashed out a fair amount of my money from Party Poker, all in all finishing up having earned a little over $100 on my $50 investment, and received $125 in bonuses, too. So I made a good deal of money (for a college student), which I subsequently blew through on sports gambling.

Right now, I've got ~$20 left in my PartyPoker account, and this discussion has got me itching to play. I'll probably play a little later this afternoon (still debating on what to play - tournament, or .50/1).

But I have run into a little financial problem. I have been make sure to let limits on what I do and don't use for gambling. I've exhausted those limits, so until I go home and get a job I'm pretty much done. But I should be working a bunch of hours starting in December, and will probably keep working when school starts in January (I'm transferring, so I'll have my car).

I'll set aside probably 5 or 10% of the money I make for gambling, and once I build a little nest up I'll start playing again.

It's a shame I ran out of my gambling money, because I just found a 1/2 game right near school that I want to play in. If anyone in the Atlanta area was looking for a weekly game, I'll pass your name on to the guy who runs it. Apparantly they have room for more players. It seems like really easy competition, too (whenever BYOB is mentioned, it can't be too serious of a setting).

~kyle

I was without my PC and consistant net access for about a month and a half, I had about 7 losing sessions in a row and was really noticing myself playing poorly and just totally without any disclipline whatsoever. Now that things have settled down into a bit more normal routine, I seem to be playing much better when I sit down to play, and have had some nice winning sessions recently and hope to be back on track.

I'm currently working to earn a $120 bonus at pokerstars that I put a deposit down for in early October, still playing nothing but no limit/pot limit ring games, usually at the level of $50 or $100 buyins.

I haven't played in about 2 weeks. I've been busy doing a lot of reading. I also bought NWN:SoU and played through the single-player campaign on that during the times that I usually played on PokerStars.

Before that, I had hit a mild unlucky streak. I started with $50 on Poker Stars and am down to about $30 now. I found that I was getting pretty agitated with even the smallest of loses and that it was effecting my play. I don't know what was really causing me to get so agitated (I had lost plenty of times before :) ), but I decided to take some time off from poker. Just to get my mind off things and relax a bit. I've been spending a lot of time reading novels and watching DVDs.

I'll probably get back into playing this week. I want to take another stab at that $3 multi-table tourney on Poker Stars.

I'm playing professionally now at the Bellagio and Mirage. Mainly 15/30 and 20/40. I play about 40 to 50 hours per week -- win rate so far is $40 per hour, with a standard deviation of +/- $240 per hour.

Just curious - have you had any awful days since starting? If so, how bad were they? How'd you deal with it?

Of course living through the good times of being a pro gambler is easy, but I'm curious as to how hard it is during the bad times. (At a normal job, a bad day at the office you still earn as much money as a good day - not nearly the case in gambling).

I still play constantly at absolute poker, poker stars and true poker. Winning fairly consistently, especially at the 25c and 50c NL tables at absolute poker. Some real chumps there. Wait, a minute, forget i said anything.

This does have me curious for those who play online.

Do you guys play percentages or take more notice what your opponents around the table are doing. We play dollar Texas Hold 'Em after work once in a while and I couldn't imagine not being able to get reads off people.

If I remember didn't an online player end up winning the world series of poker? That is pretty amazing to me.

Absolutely. Last Thursday I dropped $1,200 in one session. I got beaten on the river by lots of 2 out, 3 out and 4 out draws where I was a huge favorite (One huge pot I had AA, and the fish chased me down to the river with 33 and spiked his 2-outer). How do I handle it? Grin, and say "Nice hand".

Standard deviation is your friend. If the idiots never won, they'd never play -- so they must win occasionally. You must be adequately bankrolled to withstand the variance, but solid play makes you a long term winner. I've had several losing weeks, but I win two out of three sessions on average. In the long run, after hundreds of hours of play, a solid player's win rate will take over.

1) Not as tough as you would think. First, I play live games, so the hands aren't being dealt out at machine-gun pace like they are online. Second, my sessions are usually 8 or 9 hours, but I take frequent breaks to stay refreshed. I usually break for a meal about midway, and a couple of other times I'll walk over to the Sportsbook to check out the happenings.

2) I'm always trying to improve my game -- reading, analyzing hands, learning why people play certain ways, etc. It's a never-ending challenge.

I guess, most of all, I like the freedom and personal responsibility that comes along with it. Unlike my prior job, If I bust my ass, I don't have to share the rewards with incompetent co-workers. I don't have to look at myself in the mirror and feel bad about working for a corrupt local government (I was an urban planner before I "retired"). In many ways, this is probably a more honorable way of making a living than most "normal" jobs. I pay taxes, contribute to local charities and tithe to my church. The downside is that I have to pay for my own health insurance and retirement (although I have a nice chunk vested from my government job).

I wouldn't recommend this to anyone. But if you have the desire, willpower, discipline and consistency, it's possible to succeed. I don't regret my choice at all.

You can get reads on people. There are several online "tells," including how quickly one acts. Most important though is learning how opponents play in certain situations and how predictable they are (and in what way). So the math is a big part, of course, but there are lots of ways to put people on a hand online, too.

And yeah Chris Moneymaker qualified for the WSOP online at poker stars. Cost him $40. Prize money $2.5 mill.

If you are just starting out, I'd suggest not trying to read hands. You'll be playing at the cheap tables with bad players. This is where I inevitably get into trouble. Just play the cards you get and go from there. (The exception would be if you run into the same players at the cheap tables. Then you'll want to take notes)

The problem I always run into is I'll be playing at .25/.50, I'll go up $5, and start paying attention to the table trying to read the hands. Always, ALWAYS, I get bit on the ass by a couple of unpredictable players (who just do not do what they shoudl be doing) and I go back into the red.

If, however, you are playing in a tournament, then you should pay attention. Take notice to the players who are winning and going ahead.

Like MattJones said, how quickly one acts online is a huge tell. If someone bets/raises right away, you know they have something. If they take even a second, you know they're not sure. I've drawn so many players into this sort of trap (I'll bet/raise right away with nothing, and wait when I have a huge hand)

Ah ok that makes sense, thanks. Kind of want to go rent Rounders now. :D

Ive found the most obvious tell to be delays. A player who wants a free card will often pause before checking, as if considering whether or not to bet since he might have just "hit." This is akin to the usual fish behavior at live tables "acting strong when you are weak" and vice versa. A player will often pause a while before betting if he has a big hand as if he's not sure he wants to bet his "weak" hand, or is considering his chances of stealing (acting weak when you are strong). If there is a long pause before an action, generally whatever they eventually do is what they would've done right away. This is a pretty consistent tell.

At the tables I play, they're not bright enough for that. :D

rent? Buy the DVD, man!

At PartyPoker, I've found about that there are always 2 or 3 guys who make good plays, or at least thoughtful (what Matt described) plays. The rest are tough to read, but there are some you can (I've played .50/1 mostly).

Yea', the best advice I can give for online is, "When in doubt, act strong if you're strong, act weak if you're weak".

Unless you're a shark like Vic, then you can get fancy.:)

Generally, I agree with you - straightforward play is generally the best strategy. The only area where I routinely cross that is at the no limit tables, when I feel that too heavy a raise will leave me stranded too quickly. If you're really strong in no limit, better to let them catch something to call your bets, or better yet to make them on their own.

More thoughts on Partypoker vs. Poker Stars

Pro Party-Poker
A couple of reason why I like PokerStars better overall:

Heads-up "tournament" tables. You can sit down at a table of the amount of your choosing, and simply wait for an opponent. (Incidentally, i'm 2-for-2 heads up).

Lower fees in the tournaments. $10 + .50 vs. $10 + 1 at partypoker. It might seem like chump change, but it can add up when you play lots of sit-n-go tournaments.

"Frequent Player Points" - you earn these for entering tournaments (and I believe when playing raked hands, though I'm not sure). You can redeem the points for FPP tournmanets (or merchandise on their webpage, if that's your thing). So I basically get to play some free tournaments here and there.

Larger chip-set in tournmanet play. You start with 1,500 chips at 20/40 bets, whereas you get 800 with 15/30 at pokerstars. This seems to help ensure the better players rise to the top, rather than a a bad beat just crippling you early.

Variety of tournaments - I've been getting some really good no-limit experience in with the daily $3 qualifiers. I can usually get 1.5 or so of play for just 3 bucks before getting knocked out. Since i'm generally a limit-tournament guy only, this is great for me.



Pro PartyPoker
The one thing it appears to have going for it is the sheer volume of players. You can join tournaments of any amount in literally 1-2 minutes here, where as it can take 20+ to even get a $10 limit hold-em sit-n-go tournament started at Poker Stars.

Ugh. My bad run at PertyPoker continues... I'm just crashing over there lately, getting crushed in every possible way in tournament play. I've only been in the money in two of my last seven $50+5 tournaments... and that can add up quickly.

I've hit a bit of a hot streak this last week, and have really kicked ass in my tournaments at both Partypoker and Poker Stars. I've won about 1/3rd outright, and have finished in the money well over half the time. I've also done great playing heads-up at Poker Stars. I think I've finally found the discipline to win consistently, or at least I hope so.

I was thinking about this recently, and had to go back and dig this statement up.

In a normal distribution, as I recall, a value lies within one SD of the mean sbout 67% of the time, and within two SD of the mean 95% of the time.

If that holds true, and your SD value is accurate... then you are saying that in about one out of three hours of play you either (a) lose more than $200 or (b) win more than about $280?

Good heavens... that seems staggering to me. The ups and downs must wreak havoc on anything but a very steeled psyche.

I didn't really understand what any of that meant until Quik's explanation, I am not very good with Statistics at all... but yeah, holy shit. I am amazed that the deviation would be that high at a 20/40 table, I would have expected it to be that drastic at 3/6 and taper off as you went up in limits.

i've hit a little bit of a bad luck streak on ultimatebet.com usually i'll play sit and go's as my bankroll is well small :) otherwise i'll play .25/.50 but most of the players stay on such silly stuff that it drives me bonkers when someone catches their 1 out card.

That's correct, Quik. On one occasion, I lost $1,000 in 30 minutes. That would be 3 standard deviations from the norm. I lost quads to a straight flush, a flopped full house to a 4 of a kind (guy hit a one-outer on the river), nut flush to a full house (board paired on the river), and a set over set over set (I had the lowest set, TTT, 888, 777). Needless to say, I was in a state of shock, and I had to get up from the table for a long break.

Probably the toughest adjustment for anyone is the variance. They see that they can make 1 BB per hour, and they have visions of being up $40 after one hour, $80 after two hours, etc.

Unfortunately, it doesn't quite work out that way. After several thousand hours of play, you can expect to be up by your win rate, but there will be some huge winning and losing swings.

A reasonable expectation for a solid player would be something like 1 BB per hour (+/- 9 BB per hour).

There's an excellent book that covers this and many other topics, "Gambling Theory and Other Topics" by Mason Malmuth. Risk and fluctuation are discussed in terms of standard deviation, and it is explained how these relate to each other as well as to your bankroll. The book also covers many other subjects, showing how these situations apply to life (as well as to gambling).

So here's a question. How did you decide you were a good player? Clearly, if you are making $40/hr(1 BB or more given 15/30 and 20/40) then you are a good player, but where exactly did you decide to start when you decided to start playing Hold Em? With such deviation, a bad player can have a good night and a good player can have many, many bad nights. How long did you play or what did you look at to simply determine for the first time once you had been playing seriously for awhile, "I'm a good player and should try to do this for a living" ?

I know the simple answer to this is to simply play for many, many, many, many, many hours and examine your win rate. Was there anything else you looked at along the way?

Here is my question...

I was in Vegas last weekend. I only got to sneak away from the wife for one session of poker. I ended up at a 2/4 table. It was a pretty good game with a couple of decent players and an overall positive vibe at the table (which I like, as it makes the gaming atmosphere more fun). We had the guy who couldn't stop talking about the hands he was throwing away, the woman who played every hand but was still managing to hold her own and the requisite crusty local. All in all, good fun.

Then some hot shot sits down with head phones and sun glasses on. It is obvious that he thinks he is pretty good. And he tries to make his play seem that way, as well--calling raises loudly and with authority, etc.

I understand wearing sunglasses and steeling your exterior personality when you are playing for high stakes, but at a 2/4 table, it just seemed a little much.

I'm curious as to others experiences with the "tough guy" who thinks he runs the show.

Incidentally, he didn't fare particularly well. He didn't do poorly either, but he wasn't running the table. I guess the lesson may be just to laugh these guys off--and maybe it makes online play more attractive.

digamma - it's all about the table image. obviously he thought that by dressing and acting that way that he might be able to intimidate players into thinking he was a lion instead of the jackal that he is (damn hellmuth and his animal types). my suggestion would be to play your game and to judge him on how he plays instead of how he looks, but that's just my $.02

That's pretty much it, Radii. I started playing at low limit (2/4). When I became a consistent winner, I moved up to 4/8. Then up to 8/16, then up to the middle limits that I play now (15/30, 20/40).

Accurate record keeping is a must. As you pointed out, you must play many hours to get an accurate assessment of your ability.

Vic - I'm curious as to what limits you have per session if any. Do you use the 30 big bet guide or something different?

Chubby,

I buy in for 30 big bets.

I don't believe in stop/loss limits. I will play for the full session, unless I feel that I'm getting fatigued or if I think the game conditions have deteriorated (too many tough players).

vic - tho you are limiting yourself to 30 big bets if you aren't having a good day which was what i was curious about. thanks, i find it interesting to compare what i do with what other people that play do.

No, I buy in for 30 big bets. If I'm running low on chips, I'll rebuy, or at least make sure I've got cash on the table. I never start a hand without having sufficient chips to complete the hand. The worst thing that could happen to any player (and I've seen it many times) is to be "all-in" and flop a monster without having the resources to make any money on the hand.

Love your profile, Vic.

FWIW, I'm going to an Indian casino in NY over Thanksgiving for a day, and am planning on doing the opposite of what digamma mentioned; I'm gonna' be the tourist (which I sort of am, though I've played a fair amount of poker), who isn't obnoxious but likes to talk and generally not focus on the game (I can pull this off while still concentrating, I believe). I'll report later how things went.

Good luck. I'm looking forward to hearing about it.

By the way, I hope that I haven't said anything in this or in any previous thread that denegrates the tourists. While most of them are fish, I've seen many tourists who are tough, sharp players (who have taken my money). I have no doubt that some of you in this thread could beat the 15/30 at the Bellagio.

Actually, some of the worst players I face are the locals -- people with money to burn, retirees who never learned the proper way to play, etc. There is one old lady who plays 20/40 everyday at the Mirage, and I can't recall seeing her have a single winning session. I think her husband gives her a lot of money, because she is absolutely horrible at poker.

Ahhh gotcha.

RPI Fan - Are you going to Turning Stone? If you are call ahead and get put on the list(s) for the game(s) you want to get in on before you get there. I was there this past week, had to wait around to get on a table that wouldn't break me in 1 hand. It was a weekeday, 2 tables open till about 11 then it really picked up with a lot more table opening up. There was prob 10-12 tables open by noon.

It was the various poker threads here that perked my interest in hold-em and ive been lucky enough to find a local monthly tournament with 16 -24 people and of course im spending way to much time playing online.

anyways for those of you playing online you may want to check out www.pokertracker.com. Excellent for record-keeping and it has certainly made me more aware of different parts of my game.

im not gonna be able to quit my day job anytime soon but its good fun learning the game.

anyone have any other recommendations of software aids/teachers for hold-em?

Yea', I'm going to Turning Stone. Planned on getting their around 10am, playing some 3-6. So it'll probably be good to call ahead - I hadn't thought of that. I also might play in their NL Hold 'Em tourney, though it might be a tad too wild for my tastes.

Thanks for the tips, though! Any other pointers on TS?

RPI - they are doing a lof of construction FYI, tho it doesn't really affect anything. The parking garage is now open tho I usually just park outdoors. At 10am when I was there on a friday they had a 3-6 and a 15-30 game going. The 3-6 you could get right on but the 15-30 had been going all night and was full. I would definately call if I were you (I will from now on, that was my 1st time playing poker there even tho I have been there a million times) since it doesn't hurt anything. There's a good amount of regulars at the tables, I had a good experience even tho I lost a few bucks. Everyone was nice and even tho some people played silly hands it was a "normal" table I would say. Like I said, around noon there will be a ton of tables opening up as that is when they get more dealers in for their shifts, and more players. You have to get a poker card for $2 which lets you play for 24 hours when you get your chips at the cage in the poker room. It's kinda a rip but oh well, neither niagara falls casino has poker (I hope the addition to casino niagara will).

While my online game founders... my in-person game is better than ever, it seems.

Last night played in the latest renewal of my regular tournament game, where I became the first two-time winner. 20 players last night, so a $600 top prize. Plus, an after-hours cash game that worked out pretty well for me as well.

Caught a very memorable hand as we were down to the final four players last night. I was chip leader with about $90,000, and to my right is the second stack with about $80,000, and the other two players just barely hanging on. Second stack (dealer) raises pre-flop - the big bling was $8,000 - he raises that another $9,000 to $17K. I have As 6s, which I decide to call with. Enough current power and future potential that I didn't want to get pushed around. It's down to the two of us, predictably, with about $40K in the pot - the winner will have a meaningful chip lead.

Flop comes: 2s 4s Js

Heh. Nut flush. I bet $10,000... and he openly agonizes. There are about ten people watching the play at this point, and he chats it up (as is his style) and then calls the bet. The turn is a blank (Tc) and I push all in - with $60,000 in the pot, and after seeing him call my first bet - I figure he has to be committed. I figured he had made his flush as well - so this was the right move, I was certain.

He literally spends about five minutes laboring over the decision, and then finally calls the bet. Understand that he gives up a very likely second place position by doing so (and $200 in prize differential) and calls my all-in bet with his hand:

Ks Qs

He, of course, is drawing absolutely dead - my ace and six even wipe out any chance for a straight flush, no matter which spades he had. But having the king in there... knowing he's second best, just had to be tough. (The same guy put me out from the final table last time we played, and has some personality traits I find despicable... so busting him badly was pretty rewarding)

After that I'm sitting on more than 80% of the chips in play - it was a pretty perfunctory exercise to (mostly) let the other two resolve second place, and then crush the survivor like a bug.

Had my first home game last night. Great fun. And the significant others enjoyed a chance to hang out together in the other room and watch movies and talk about babies. Always neat to know that Ms. A and the rest of the ladies will be into wanting more poker nights.

We had a rules question come up:

When two players tie with a flush, do they split the pot if they have the same high card (i.e. if the ace is on the table), or do you count down high cards until someone has a higher card?

you count down, the highest that the other doesn't have in his hand is the kicker. Unless they are both playing the board, someone wins and someone loses.