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-   -   Officer delays family racing to see dying mom (https://forums.operationsports.com/fofc//showthread.php?t=71536)

Passacaglia 03-26-2009 12:29 PM

Officer delays family racing to see dying mom
 
http://www.wfaa.com/sharedcontent/dw....6f8a23c1.html

Quote:

By REBECCA LOPEZ / WFAA-TV

Dallas PD
Ryan Motes' wife and other family members (right) leave the scene while a Dallas police Officer Robert Powell detains the NFL player outside the emergency room.


NEWS 8 EXCLUSIVE
Rebecca Lopez reports
More WFAA Latest News video
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Related links:

LINK: Unedited Dallas PD dashcam video
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DALLAS — Racing to see his dying mother-in-law at a Plano hospital, an NFL player found himself delayed by a Dallas officer after he was stopped in the emergency room parking lot.

With his wife and another woman in the car, Ryan Moats — a running back for the Houston Texans — sped his car toward the hospital early on March 17. But when Moats arrived at the parking lot, they were stopped by Officer Robert Powell.

Dashcam video from the Dallas officer's patrol car captured the incident.

"Get in there," Officer Powell yelled out to Tamishia Moats, Ryan's wife, as she exited the car. "Let me see your hands. Get in there. Put your hands on the car."

"Excuse me; my mom is dying," Moats said.

Tamishia Moats and the other woman ignored Officer Powell's commands and rushed inside the hospital to see her mother as Ryan Moats and Officer Powell went back-and-forth over insurance paperwork the NFL player was unable to locate.

MOATS: "I've got seconds before she's gone, man."

POWELL: "Listen: If I can't verify you have insurance..."

MOATS: "My mother-in-law is dying!"

POWELL: "Listen to me."

MOATS: "Right now, you're wasting my time."

POWELL: "If you can't verify you have insurance, I'm going to tow your car. So, you either find it or I am going to tow the car."

As they argued, the officer got irritated.

POWELL: "Shut your mouth. Shut your mouth. You can either settle down and cooperate, or I can just take you to jail for running a red light."


Dallas PD
The tape shows a nurse coming out of the hospital, pleading with Officer Powell to let Moats join his wife and her dying mother inside..
In a telephone interview, Moats said the clash with the officer was totally unexpected. "For him to not even be sympathetic at all, and basically we're dogs or something and we don't matter — it basically shocked me," he said.

No compassion was indicated in the police recording of the incident. "I can screw you over," Officer Powell said. "I would rather not do that. You obviously will dictate everything that happens; and right now, your attitude sucks."

The hospital twice sent nurses to try and get the officer to release Moats.

"We're blue-coding her for the third time," a nurse said on the police videotape.

A Plano police officer stopped to make a plea for the officer to let Moats go. "Hey, that's the nurse," the Plano officer said. "She says the mom is dying right now, and she wants to know if I can get him up there."

Finally, after a 20-minute delay, the officer ticketed Moats for running a red light.

By the time Moats made it up to the emergency room, his mother-in-law was dead.

"I went up after she passed and held her hand, but she was already gone," Moats said in a telephone interview.

Dallas police have apologized to the Moats family, dropped the ticket, and launched a review of the incident.

“When it came to our attention, we immediately called for an internal investigation to be done,” said police spokesman Lt. Andy Havey.

E-mail [email protected]


Mustang 03-26-2009 12:34 PM

I'm sure police officers hear things like this all the time, but given that they were in the hospital parking lot, it should have been easy enough to verify the story and especially after the nurse came out.

After that you are no longer a police officer, you're just a uniformed douche bag.

sterlingice 03-26-2009 12:36 PM

Aside from being a little careless with his language (the "I can screw you over" line), I don't see what the officer did wrong. It's a really unfortunate situation and I really feel for them, but I don't see how this could have gone any differently. I would hope the officer would be sympathetic but if they ran a red light... I dunno- that really is putting them above public safety.

If I were Moats, I'd be pissed. But I think we're trying to view this through all lenses.

SI

gstelmack 03-26-2009 12:37 PM

And if they hadn't got out of the car and immediately raced into the hospital and instead had taken the time to explain to the officer UP FRONT (which the officer mentions later) there wouldn't have been an issue. How does the officer know they aren't running inside with a gun or something?

This was a misunderstanding on both sides as these things often are.

JPhillips 03-26-2009 12:40 PM

You have the license number. You can verify the license. It wouldn't be that hard to issue the ticket later due to these circumstances. This isn't a violent individual that could be a threat to public safety.

DanGarion 03-26-2009 12:44 PM

Officer was a dick, but regardless of why you are doing it, if you break the law and PUT OTHER PEOPLE'S LIVES IN RISK you don't really deserve much empathy, especially since the officer doesn't know why or what they are doing.

gstelmack 03-26-2009 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JPhillips (Post 1977886)
This isn't a violent individual that could be a threat to public safety.


Two people get out of the car and head for the hospital. How do you know what is going on at this point, and how can you take their word for it? Getting out of the car is like the cardinal sin of a traffic stop.

JPhillips 03-26-2009 12:51 PM

Because it says on the transcript a good part of the delay was making sure there was proof of insurance. I can understand an initial need to verify safety, but refusing to let Moates go because he can't provide proof of insurance is excessive douchebaggery.

Mustang 03-26-2009 12:51 PM

There is a big difference between an officer stopping someone to find out what is going on and delaying this entire process for 20 minutes even AFTER another officer makes a comment.

Travis 03-26-2009 12:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gstelmack (Post 1977884)
And if they hadn't got out of the car and immediately raced into the hospital and instead had taken the time to explain to the officer UP FRONT (which the officer mentions later) there wouldn't have been an issue. How does the officer know they aren't running inside with a gun or something?

This was a misunderstanding on both sides as these things often are.


The wife and another woman ran inside (and the officer let them go), not Ryan Moats, who did try to explain the situation and how time sensitive it was. At that point, accompany him in then. Once a nurse comes out and verifies the story, the cop really has lost any sympathy from me (at least based on how things are worded in the article).

I understand that he's trying to uphold the law, but if (and yes that's a big if) Moats was being honest when he said he made sure it was safe before proceeding through the red light, then a lot more compassion should have been shown given the circumstances and location.

larrymcg421 03-26-2009 12:56 PM

Yeah, the problem isn't the initial detention. I don't think anyone is questioning that. The problem is the need to verify insurance when two nurses have come out to beg the officer to let the guy see his dying mother in law. At this point, the officer could have followed the guy to the ER and waited outside the room.

JediKooter 03-26-2009 12:56 PM

The cop was a dick, plain and simple. He continued to be a dick even after a nurse and a SECOND COP told him everything was true and to let him go see his mother in law.

The cop has my vote for Dick of the Year Award.

Izulde 03-26-2009 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by larrymcg421 (Post 1977897)
Yeah, the problem isn't the initial detention. I don't think anyone is questioning that. The problem is the need to verify insurance when two nurses have come out to beg the officer to let the guy see his dying mother in law. At this point, the officer could have followed the guy to the ER and waited outside the room.


Precisely my thoughts.

Noop 03-26-2009 01:01 PM

The officer was doing his job... I think his attitude sucked but he was doing his job.

Raiders Army 03-26-2009 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noop (Post 1977900)
The officer was doing his job... I think his attitude sucked but he was doing his job.


There's a difference between doing your job and abuse of power. The cop was on a power trip.

Noop 03-26-2009 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raiders Army (Post 1977905)
There's a difference between doing your job and abuse of power. The cop was on a power trip.


Hey man I am more often then not on the side of the citizen. However in this case the man was doing his job albeit with a shitty attitude.

Raiders Army 03-26-2009 01:15 PM

I believe I read the ESPN spun article and it implied that there were racial overtones to the officer's attitude as well. Just because you can do something doesn't mean that you should.

A policeman's job is to ensure the public safety. He could have done that numerous ways other than what he did. Based upon the information in the article, I would say that at the minimum he didn't do his job properly and at the maximum he was definitely abusing his power.

Eaglesfan27 03-26-2009 01:21 PM

Based on the article, I agree that it is an abuse of power. I've actually seen officers come into the ED with a person because they were stopped for a traffic violation to confirm that they had a family member they were rushing to see. I don't see any reason this officer could not have confirmed the story with the hospital, once he quickly ascertained this guy wasn't carrying a weapon.

Pyser 03-26-2009 01:22 PM

i think the officer should be severely disciplined

Young Drachma 03-26-2009 01:26 PM

If he wasn't an NFL player, it wouldn't have made the news. That said, the cop was just being a jerk. He might not have been "in the wrong," but he was being a real asshole.

Noop 03-26-2009 01:30 PM

Is this a common practice to be with someone as they die? I know it was something practiced in England back in the day. I didn't know people still do that and to me at least that's a little morbid.

DanGarion 03-26-2009 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raiders Army (Post 1977910)
I believe I read the ESPN spun article and it implied that there were racial overtones to the officer's attitude as well. Just because you can do something doesn't mean that you should.

A policeman's job is to ensure the public safety. He could have done that numerous ways other than what he did. Based upon the information in the article, I would say that at the minimum he didn't do his job properly and at the maximum he was definitely abusing his power.


Considering the history of these types of stories on the board, I'm surprised the race card wasn't already pulled...

MJ4H 03-26-2009 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noop (Post 1977923)
Is this a common practice to be with someone as they die? I know it was something practiced in England back in the day. I didn't know people still do that and to me at least that's a little morbid.


???

wade moore 03-26-2009 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noop (Post 1977923)
Is this a common practice to be with someone as they die? I know it was something practiced in England back in the day. I didn't know people still do that and to me at least that's a little morbid.


From my perspective this is a 100% normal thing.

In fact, I have the exact same reaction to your statement as you do to Moats. Something along the lines of (and what I posted originally), "um, what?". To me it is a given that if it is at all possible, you are at the side of a dying loved one as they pass.

Noop 03-26-2009 01:36 PM

Like be by their side as they die.

Mustang 03-26-2009 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noop (Post 1977923)
Is this a common practice to be with someone as they die? I know it was something practiced in England back in the day. I didn't know people still do that and to me at least that's a little morbid.


Huh?

MJ4H 03-26-2009 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noop (Post 1977929)
Like be by their side as they die.


Yes? Are you saying if your wife or mother was dying you wouldn't want to be with them?

What?

Mustang 03-26-2009 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noop (Post 1977929)
Like be by their side as they die.


I didn't know that there was anyone out there that wouldn't try to be at someone's side.

Noop 03-26-2009 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MJ4H (Post 1977934)
Yes? Are you saying if your wife or mother was dying you wouldn't want to be with them?

What?


Like everyone is in the room while the person dies? That creeps the hell out of me. I mean if its my parents I don't think I would be able to do it without crying like a little baby then having nightmares about the whole event for the next few months. I wouldn't want them to die alone or anything...man thinking about it makes me feel weird.

wade moore 03-26-2009 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noop (Post 1977937)
Like everyone is in the room while the person dies? That creeps the hell out of me. I mean if its parents I don't think I would be able to do it without crying like a little baby then having nightmares about the whole event for the next few months. I wouldn't want them to die alone or anything...man thinking about it makes me feel weird.


Crying can be good.

Noop 03-26-2009 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mustang (Post 1977935)
I didn't know that there was anyone out there that wouldn't try to be at someone's side.


I honestly thought that was something from back in the day.

Noop 03-26-2009 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wade moore (Post 1977939)
Crying can be good.


It's not the crying it's the nightmares especially with my active mind.

wade moore 03-26-2009 01:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noop (Post 1977943)
It's not the crying more then nightmares especially with my active mind.


Yeah. I'm just not sure what to tell you because I'm on the completely opposite side of this - that I'd find it completely abnormal for someone NOT to want to be with a loved one (and we're talking parents, wife, children here) as they passed.

Nightmares seems extreme to me, but I can't speak for what your imagination does.

Noop 03-26-2009 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wade moore (Post 1977944)
Yeah. I'm just not sure what to tell you because I'm on the completely opposite side of this - that I'd find it completely abnormal for someone NOT to want to be with a loved one (and we're talking parents, wife, children here) as they passed.

Nightmares seems extreme to me, but I can't speak for what your imagination does.


Like I said I did not know people still do that, I read about Emily Dickinson and learned people did that. I tend to avoid things about death and dead people because that stuff gives me nightmares. I get nightmares from going to funerals and seeing someone's body.

Eaglesfan27 03-26-2009 01:51 PM

Being by parents' bedside is very much the norm I believe, and I'm a bit surprised anyone would question that. Spouses sure as heck better be there as well to support their wife/husband even if they weren't particularly close to the in-law.

JonInMiddleGA 03-26-2009 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noop (Post 1977940)
I honestly thought that was something from back in the day.


You get the strangest notions sometimes. Thing is, I'm genuinely having a hard time figuring out where you got this one.

edit to add: You mentioned reading about this & not knowing people still did it ... from that should I gather that your family/the people around you don't, or at least haven't in the past decade or so?

Now don't get me wrong, everybody has to deal with death in their own way and by & large that's their business but as astonished as I was that you thought this was out of the norm, I'm even more speechless that there's actually some pattern of not doing so in your life. In the absence of some conflict in the relationship or something of that nature I can't say I've ever run across anyone who would have thought this odd. To think there's a group of people in the same orbit who would think so just blows my mind completely.

Eaglesfan27 03-26-2009 01:53 PM

Not a dola -

When my mother had her heart attack and we thought she might die, I remember my wife driving me to the hospital and I'm fairly sure she was at least 20 mph over the speed limit the whole way there.

Kodos 03-26-2009 01:55 PM

And don't you think the dying person might like to have their loved ones there to comfort them as they die?

Raiders Army 03-26-2009 01:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noop (Post 1977952)
Like I said I did not know people still do that, I read about Emily Dickinson and learned people did that. I tend to avoid things about death and dead people because that stuff gives me nightmares. I get nightmares from going to funerals and seeing someone's body.


Maybe it would help if you would understand it from the dying individual point of view. Being with someone when they die is for them instead of for you. I would think that regardless of having nightmares, anyone would want to comfort someone else as they pass from this life...especially someone they love.

Noop 03-26-2009 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA (Post 1977954)
You get the strangest notions sometimes. Thing is, I'm genuinely having a hard time figuring out where you got this one.


Just as strange as it is to you, it is/was strange to me people participate in it. I have never heard of that being done in contemporary times never. I am not judging anyone who does it, in fact I can see why people would want to. However before reading this article it never occurred to me that people did this and considering I recently began studying Emily Dickinson I thought that was something practiced in England way back when.

It maybe more prevalent where you live or grew up but not for me.

Mustang 03-26-2009 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noop (Post 1977962)
My be more prevalent where you live or grew up but not for me.


Where did you grow up? Mars???


;)

Noop 03-26-2009 02:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mustang (Post 1977963)
Where did you grow up? Mars???


;)


Apparently.

Passacaglia 03-26-2009 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noop (Post 1977923)
Is this a common practice to be with someone as they die? I know it was something practiced in England back in the day. I didn't know people still do that and to me at least that's a little morbid.


I don't know if the thing is to be with someone "as they die" but the motivation is probably to see them alive one more time -- even if the signs of life aren't visible. I'm guessing that people feel better knowing that their loved ones weren't alone when they died.

Neon_Chaos 03-26-2009 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noop (Post 1977962)
Just as strange as it is to you, it is/was strange to me people participate in it. I have never heard of that being done in contemporary times never. I am not judging anyone who does it, in fact I can see why people would want to. However before reading this article it never occurred to me that people did this and considering I recently began studying Emily Dickinson I thought that was something practiced in England way back when.

It maybe more prevalent where you live or grew up but not for me.


I really don't think it's a location thing. It's the same way here in the Philippines.

I'd gander to say that it's the same all around the world.

Raiders Army 03-26-2009 02:09 PM

Going back to the story, I watched most of the unedited dashcam video that the article links to. I gotta say it's pretty bad and the cop definitely pulled a power trip.

Edit--I really have to say that reading the words that were said really takes away from what happened. If you watch the video, I don't see how there's any way you can side with the cop.

larrymcg421 03-26-2009 02:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Raiders Army (Post 1977960)
Maybe it would help if you would understand it from the dying individual point of view. Being with someone when they die is for them instead of for you. I would think that regardless of having nightmares, anyone would want to comfort someone else as they pass from this life...especially someone they love.


Yeah, the thought of a loved one dying alone gives me nightmares more than being with them as they die. Also, sometimes it's hard to let go of someone, so you want to spend every last possible moment you can with them.

Huckleberry 03-26-2009 02:11 PM

1. Noop, that is wild.

2. The cop was a complete asshat. More information:

NFL player pulled over outside hospital while rushing to be with dying relative

06:39 AM CDT on Thursday, March 26, 2009

By STEVE THOMPSON and TANYA EISERER / The Dallas Morning News

As he rushed his family to the hospital, 26-year-old NFL running back Ryan Moats rolled through a red light. A Dallas police officer pulled their SUV over outside the emergency room.

Moats and his wife explained that her mother was dying inside the hospital.

"You really want to go through this right now?" Moats pleaded. "My mother-in-law is dying. Right now!"

The officer, 25-year-old Robert Powell, was unmoved. He spent long minutes writing Moats a ticket and threatened him with arrest.

"I can screw you over," the officer told Moats. "I'd rather not do that."

The scene last week, captured by a dashboard video camera, prompted apologies and the promise of an investigation from Dallas police officials Wednesday.

"There were some things that were said that were disturbing, to say the least," said Lt. Andy Harvey, a police spokesman.

Moats' mother-in-law, Jonetta Collinsworth, was struggling at 45 with breast cancer that had spread throughout her body. Family members rushed to her bedside from as far away as California.

On March 17, the night of their incident with Powell, the Moatses had gone to their Frisco home to get some rest. Around midnight, they received word that they needed to hurry back to the hospital if they wanted to see Collinsworth before she died.

The couple, along with Collinsworth's father and an aunt, jumped into the SUV and headed back toward Baylor Regional Medical Center at Plano. They exited the Dallas North Tollway at Preston Road, just down the street from the hospital.

Moats turned on his hazard lights. He stopped at a red light, where, he said, the only nearby motorist signaled for him to go ahead. He went through.

Powell, watching traffic from a hidden spot, flipped on his lights and sirens. In less than a minute, he caught up to the SUV and followed for about 20 more seconds as Moats found a parking spot outside the emergency room.

Moats' wife, 27-year-old Tamishia, was the first out. Powell yelled at her to get back in.

"Get in there!" he yelled. "Let me see your hands!"

"My mom is dying," she explained.

Powell was undeterred.

"I saw in his eyes that he really did not care," Tamishia Moats said Wednesday.

Tamishia Moats and her great-aunt ignored the officer and headed into the hospital. Ryan Moats stayed behind with the father of the dying woman.

"I waited until no traffic was coming," Moats told Powell, explaining his passage through the red light. "I got seconds before she's gone, man."

Powell demanded his license and proof of insurance. Moats produced his license but said he didn't know where the insurance paperwork was.

"Just give me a ticket or whatever," he said, beginning to sound exasperated and a little argumentative.

"Shut your mouth," Powell told him. "You can cooperate and settle down, or I can just take you to jail for running a red light."

There was more back and forth.

"If you're going to give me a ticket, give me a ticket."

"Your attitude says that you need one."

"All I'm asking you is just to hurry up."

Powell began a lecture.

"If you want to keep this going, I'll just put you in handcuffs," the officer said, "and I'll take you to jail for running a red light."

Powell made several more points, including that the SUV was illegally parked. Moats replied "Yes sir" to each.

"Understand what I can do," Powell concluded. "I can tow your truck. I can charge you with fleeing. I can make your night very difficult."

"I understand," Moats responded. "I hope you'll be a great person and not do that."

Hospital security guards arrived and told Powell that the Moatses' relative really was upstairs dying.

Powell spent several minutes inside his squad car, in part to check Moats for outstanding warrants. He found none.

Another hospital staffer came out and spoke with a Plano police officer who had arrived.

"Hey, that's the nurse," the Plano officer told Powell. "She said that the mom's dying right now, and she's wanting to know if they can get him up there before she dies."

"All right," Powell replied. "I'm almost done."

As Moats signed the ticket, Powell continued his lecture.

"Attitude's everything," he said. "All you had to do is stop, tell me what was going on. More than likely, I would have let you go."

It had been about 13 minutes.

Moats and Collinsworth's father went into the hospital, where they found Collinsworth had died, with her daughter at her side.

The Moatses, who are black, said Wednesday that they can't help but think that race might have played a part in how Powell, who is white, treated them.

"I think he should lose his job," said Ryan Moats, a Dallas native who attended Bishop Lynch High School and now plays for the Houston Texans.

Powell, hired in January 2006, did not return a call for comment. Assistant Chief Floyd Simpson said Powell told police officials that he believed that he was doing his job. He has been re-assigned to dispatch pending an investigation.

"When people are in distress, we should come to the rescue," said Simpson. "We shouldn't further their distress."

Collinsworth was buried Saturday in Louisiana.

Rebecca Lopez of WFAA-TV contributed to this report.

SackAttack 03-26-2009 02:16 PM

Ticket the guy, tow the car if you're really afraid he's going to dodge it, whatever, but "I can screw you over" when the guy is saying "look, my mother is dying, can we do this in a little bit"?

I'm not sure that's worth firing, but it IS worth a nice long unpaid vacation. Part of being a police officer is being part of the community. Saying "I can screw you over" to part of the community you're supposed to be representing/defending is, IMO, unacceptable. Can't stop you from thinking it, but the minute you cross the line to saying it, you're not fit to wear the badge.

You either need, as I said, a nice, long unpaid vacation to reflect on the best way to remove your head from your ass, or you need a new line of work. Simple. You're there to protect and serve, not to "screw [someone] over."

larrymcg421 03-26-2009 02:16 PM

If it's true that he had his hazard lights on, then the officer should be out of a job. He seems a bit unstable.

SackAttack 03-26-2009 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Huckleberry (Post 1977973)
Powell spent several minutes inside his squad car, in part to check Moats for outstanding warrants. He found none.




Maybe I've just lived a sheltered life, but that's the first time I've ever looked at the action of a police officer and gone "...gotta be racial." I mean, are you kidding me? You pull the guy over for running a red light, you read him the riot act on all the ways you can screw him over, hospital security comes out to say "look, he's legit," and you're STILL detaining him to search for arrest warrants?

DanGarion 03-26-2009 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by larrymcg421 (Post 1977979)
If it's true that he had his hazard lights on, then the officer should be out of a job. He seems a bit unstable.


Hazard lights make things ok?

molson 03-26-2009 02:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by larrymcg421 (Post 1977979)
If it's true that he had his hazard lights on, then the officer should be out of a job. He seems a bit unstable.


Hazards don't give one immunity from traffic violations. (Neither does someone "waving" you to break the law - that's a common attempted defense in car accident cases)

When you're in a hurry to do something, that's the worst time to start breaking the law.

This officer had an attitude problem, but this guy was a dummy. Even in the best, most reasonable of circumstances, the pull-over is going to cost you more time than the red light would have.

JediKooter 03-26-2009 02:41 PM

Is running a red light even an arrestable offense? I'm sure there is some ambiguous code that a cop could use to make an arrest for running a red light, but come on, give me a break. That cop is useless to the community in my opinion and the department he belongs to would be best to either fire him or keep him off the streets.

I have not watched the video and one of my first thoughts was when I read the story, "I bet the driver is black and the cop is white".

* Edit to add: I think he was doing his job (even though he was clearly on a power trip) up until the point that a SECOND COP said that the football player was telling the truth. One of his peers could not even get him to turn off his power trip switch and that's a bad sign.

JonInMiddleGA 03-26-2009 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JediKooter (Post 1977993)
Is running a red light even an arrestable offense?


I would imagine it could be, under any variety of alternate charges such as public endangerment, reckless conduct, etc. And enough attitude could lead to it under whatever local version of "interference with an officer" a jurisdiction has.

Pretty much anything is arrestable under the right circumstances.

watravaler 03-26-2009 02:43 PM

Some cops don't respond well when their authority is questioned, what else is new?

Of course, the cop needs to assess the situation, but something should have clicked in his brain. Just another mouth-breather...

lordscarlet 03-26-2009 02:44 PM

I think the cop was a prick, I think he overstepped his boundaries, but I don't think he should be disciplined unless he has some sort of history of poor behavior.

Fighter of Foo 03-26-2009 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sterlingice (Post 1977883)
Aside from being a little careless with his language (the "I can screw you over" line), I don't see what the officer did wrong. It's a really unfortunate situation and I really feel for them, but I don't see how this could have gone any differently.
SI


The officer could have done nothing and let them go.

This isn't complicated.

larrymcg421 03-26-2009 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanGarion (Post 1977989)
Hazard lights make things ok?


I think that leads to him getting the benefit of the doubt. And stil, my problem isn't with the initial stop. the problem is with him being detained for os long to check insurance even after the guy's story was being verified. I'm baffled as to how anyone thinks that's reasonable.

Fighter of Foo 03-26-2009 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noop (Post 1977900)
The officer was doing his job... I think his attitude sucked but he was doing his job.


Worst. Excuse. Ever.

larrymcg421 03-26-2009 02:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by molson (Post 1977991)
This officer had an attitude problem, but this guy was a dummy. Even in the best, most reasonable of circumstances, the pull-over is going to cost you more time than the red light would have.


This is assuming that you can expect to get pulled over everytime you run a red light. If that happened in the ATL, the city would run out of tickets to print. Of course, this is also assuming you expect someone to be calm enough to think the situation through when someone they love is dying. I can tell you, if that was my case, the only thought in my mind was geytting in the car and going.

molson 03-26-2009 02:50 PM

People LOVE the jerk cop stories. It just sets something off.

Four murdered cops in Oakland doesn't arise the same kind of passion.

molson 03-26-2009 02:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by larrymcg421 (Post 1978002)
This is assuming that you can expect to get pulled over everytime you run a red light. If that happened in the ATL, the city would run out of tickets to print.


It's a calculated risk (not just risk to him, but to the community) that didin't work out for him.

molson 03-26-2009 02:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by larrymcg421 (Post 1978002)
Of course, this is also assuming you expect someone to be calm enough to think the situation through when someone they love is dying. I can tell you, if that was my case, the only thought in my mind was geytting in the car and going.


That's EXACTLY why you shouldn't be running red lights in that situation.

Karlifornia 03-26-2009 02:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lordscarlet (Post 1977998)
I think the cop was a prick, I think he overstepped his boundaries, but I don't think he should be disciplined unless he has some sort of history of poor behavior.


Did you read that article? You seriously want this guy having the ability to lock people up?

Hoo boy. I don't want this guy anywhere near a pair of handcuffs.

Karlifornia 03-26-2009 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by molson (Post 1978004)
People LOVE the jerk cop stories. It just sets something off.

Four murdered cops in Oakland doesn't arise the same kind of passion.


Lemme guess. Dad was a cop? You're a cop? Uncle was a cop?

Cop to it, buddy.

JediKooter 03-26-2009 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by molson (Post 1978004)
People LOVE the jerk cop stories. It just sets something off.

Four murdered cops in Oakland doesn't arise the same kind of passion.


Well, for the record, the dude that killed those cops was a complete scum bag and I'm glad that he was killed.

gstelmack 03-26-2009 02:54 PM

The cop was dealing with a group of multiple people in the car, some of whom got out and tried to leave the scene immediately. When those two people head in and start shooting the place up, everyone would be calling for the cop's head for letting them get away.

That said, where's a link to the dashcam video? I'd love to see it, and it may change my mind completely when I see what happened, assuming the video shows enough. These videos have a habit of cutting in late and missing key parts of what led up to the problem.

SackAttack 03-26-2009 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by larrymcg421 (Post 1978000)
I think that leads to him getting the benefit of the doubt. And stil, my problem isn't with the initial stop. the problem is with him being detained for os long to check insurance even after the guy's story was being verified. I'm baffled as to how anyone thinks that's reasonable.


Not just insurance. Arrest warrants, too.

He was fishing for a reason to lock the guy up at that point.

JPhillips 03-26-2009 02:55 PM

I don't think Moates should get off free. It's perfectly reasonable IMO to give him the ticket as he did violate the law. However, the way the cop handled the situation was wrong and we should expect a better level of judgment from the police.

Noop 03-26-2009 02:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fighter of Foo (Post 1978001)
Worst. Excuse. Ever.


Not even going to bother. I think your wrong.

Noop 03-26-2009 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by molson (Post 1978008)
That's EXACTLY why you shouldn't be running red lights in that situation.


Oscar Grant.

Huckleberry 03-26-2009 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by molson (Post 1978004)
People LOVE the jerk cop stories. It just sets something off.

Four murdered cops in Oakland doesn't arise the same kind of passion.


Actually, a healthy respect for police and what their relationship with citizens should be causes a reaction of disgust in both cases.

Police officers are given a large degree of power. Anybody with power that misuses and/or abuses that power deserves to have that power removed.

Huckleberry 03-26-2009 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noop (Post 1978017)
Not even going to bother. I think your wrong.


You seriously can't come up with any examples where doing something even if it's part of your job is wrong? Really?

That's what makes your argument a bad one.

JPhillips 03-26-2009 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gstelmack (Post 1978014)
The cop was dealing with a group of multiple people in the car, some of whom got out and tried to leave the scene immediately. When those two people head in and start shooting the place up, everyone would be calling for the cop's head for letting them get away.

That said, where's a link to the dashcam video? I'd love to see it, and it may change my mind completely when I see what happened, assuming the video shows enough. These videos have a habit of cutting in late and missing key parts of what led up to the problem.


You can access the video through the original link. I'm having trouble getting it to load, however.

molson 03-26-2009 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noop (Post 1978018)
Oscar Grant.


Lovelle Mixon

And the people who marched in Oakland calling him a hero this week.

People rallied in the streets for Lovelle Mixon who shot four Oakland police officers - 3/26/09 - San Francisco News - abc7news.com

Next time an officer has an itchy trigger finger - maybe these thugs should share some of the blame.

Ronnie Dobbs2 03-26-2009 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Huckleberry (Post 1978019)
Actually, a healthy respect for police and what their relationship with citizens should be causes a reaction of disgust in both cases.

Police officers are given a large degree of power. Anybody with power that misuses and/or abuses that power deserves to have that power removed.


I'm a big fan of police officers. What happened in Oakland was a tragedy. Doesn't change the fact that this police officer seemed to be on something of a power trip.

Huckleberry 03-26-2009 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gstelmack (Post 1978014)
The cop was dealing with a group of multiple people in the car, some of whom got out and tried to leave the scene immediately. When those two people head in and start shooting the place up, everyone would be calling for the cop's head for letting them get away.

That said, where's a link to the dashcam video? I'd love to see it, and it may change my mind completely when I see what happened, assuming the video shows enough. These videos have a habit of cutting in late and missing key parts of what led up to the problem.


:lol:

Yes, there's an epidemic of 27-year-old women and their elderly great-aunts going into hospitals and shooting them up these days. And their wheelmen generally tend to put their hazards on to alert everyone of the impending killing spree.

gstelmack 03-26-2009 03:02 PM

Watched the first 3 minutes or so of the video. Let me see:

1) Moates runs for a full minute after the cop turns on the lights and chases him, including a "rolling stop" through a stop sign with the cop right behind him, all the way to a parking place.

2) Woman jumps out and immediately heads for the hospital. Cop tells her to get back in the car, she argues. Other woman gets out, grabs her while she's yelling and pointing at the cop, and the two head for the front door while Moates gets out and walks toward the cop car.

3) Moates argues with the cop about the license and insurance.

3 strikes and you're out. He pulls over right away and explains to the cop, he's got a much better shot of making it in and getting cooperation like EaglesFan27 mentions. Run, yell at the cop, and have two people walk away after being told to stay in the car, I'm not surprised the cop is nervous. Again, routine traffic stop in Oakland leads to four dead officers. I'd be nervous, too.

Huckleberry 03-26-2009 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by molson (Post 1978022)
Lovelle Mixon

And the people who marched in Oakland calling him a hero this week.

People rallied in the streets for Lovelle Mixon who shot four Oakland police officers - 3/26/09 - San Francisco News - abc7news.com

Next time an officer has an itchy trigger finger - maybe these thugs should share some of the blame.


No, those peopple deserve to have their asses kicked. But any officer that kills a citizen in the future because of these clowns' behavior is even more of a thug than they are.

Noop 03-26-2009 03:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Huckleberry (Post 1978020)
You seriously can't come up with any examples where doing something even if it's part of your job is wrong? Really?

That's what makes your argument a bad one.


I said he was doing his job with a shitty attitude.

Travis 03-26-2009 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gstelmack (Post 1978014)
The cop was dealing with a group of multiple people in the car, some of whom got out and tried to leave the scene immediately. When those two people head in and start shooting the place up, everyone would be calling for the cop's head for letting them get away.


For the most part, this isn't what people are having a hard time with. It's the fact that he kept Moates out there for 13-20 minutes after that. I might be getting a few things wrong here, but from what I've read, what I'm getting here is that a cop see's a vehicle (with it's hazards on) roll up to a red, pause, then proceed through. He follows them to the hospital parking lot and as people get out of the vehicle, he's telling them to get back in. The woman tells him that her mother is dying and the two females proceed to the hospital while the two males remain behind and proceed to explain the situation to him while the driver is unable to find his insurance information.

So my question is, if he's willing to let the women go, not call in backup, not threaten to stop them, etc, why does he then choose to go all high and mighty on the other two even after nurses and another cop both come out to verify the story?

He did his job up to the point that the situation was explained to him in the parking lot. After that he exhibited horrible judgement (again, he could have just accompanied Moates into the hospital and figured out what fines/citations to give him once the situation is confirmed).

As it is, not only did he fail to show compassion to these people after finding out what was going on, but if you really want to look at it this way, if it were a case of evil people with designs on shooting up the hospital, he let two of them go in without stopping them while spending another 15 minutes asking for insurance papers, etc.

Noop 03-26-2009 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by molson (Post 1978022)
Lovelle Mixon

And the people who marched in Oakland calling him a hero this week.

People rallied in the streets for Lovelle Mixon who shot four Oakland police officers - 3/26/09 - San Francisco News - abc7news.com

Next time an officer has an itchy trigger finger - maybe these thugs should share some of the blame.


Those people are ignorant or might be tired of the nonsense they receive out there.

JPhillips 03-26-2009 03:05 PM

They pissed him off and he was going to make sure they understood who was the big dog.

DanGarion 03-26-2009 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by larrymcg421 (Post 1978000)
I think that leads to him getting the benefit of the doubt. And stil, my problem isn't with the initial stop. the problem is with him being detained for os long to check insurance even after the guy's story was being verified. I'm baffled as to how anyone thinks that's reasonable.


Every so often we have idiots around here that are driving down the freeway with their emergency/hazard lights on. Honestly it makes no sense why you would use those in any instance unless you are stopped on the side of the road or if you are trying to pull over due to your car having an issue. If you are driving down the road with them on you look like an idiot, especially for no reason.

In addition we have people driving down the freeways here with hazards on driving 15-20 MPH in the slow lane. WTF are you on the freeway if you can't go the speed of traffic, you are safer on the streets.

There are many people that don't understand when is a proper time to use your hazard lights.

In the California Drivers Handbook the only mention of emergency/hazard lights is to signal other drivers of a possible hazard ahead (such as an accident) or if you are pulled to the size of the road.

larrymcg421 03-26-2009 03:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gstelmack (Post 1978014)
The cop was dealing with a group of multiple people in the car, some of whom got out and tried to leave the scene immediately. When those two people head in and start shooting the place up, everyone would be calling for the cop's head for letting them get away.


Except he did let them get away and it doesn't sound like he even made an attempt to stop the others, so I'm not sure what this has to do with anything. You seem to want to continue arguing about the initial detention. Why is that? How many times do I have to say that the problem isn't with the initial detention, but the prolonged detention after a nurse AND a police officer told him the guy was legit and asked him to let him go. Are you defaulting on that point? Because you don't seem to want to address it.

gstelmack 03-26-2009 03:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Travis (Post 1978030)
So my question is, if he's willing to let the women go, not call in backup, not threaten to stop them, etc, why does he then choose to go all high and mighty on the other two even after nurses and another cop both come out to verify the story?


On the tape, he does try to get them to stop and is requesting help over the radio, but he can't handle all 3 on his own. And Moates is arguing with him almost immediately, including telling the cop to go find his insurance himself.

Seriously, the first 3 minutes of that tape sets up everything that comes after. The cop has to be nervous and stressed, and the rest of the overreaction comes from that.

Sure, the cop may have overreacted and held him longer than he needed to, but you have to put a lot of blame on Moates and the people with him for how they handled the start of it.

gstelmack 03-26-2009 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by larrymcg421 (Post 1978036)
Except he did let them get away and it doesn't sound like he even made an attempt to stop the others, so I'm not sure what this has to do with anything. You seem to want to continue arguing about the initial detention. Why is that? How many times do I have to say that the problem isn't with the initial detention, but the prolonged detention after a nurse AND a police officer told him the guy was legit and asked him to let him go. Are you defaulting on that point? Because you don't seem to want to address it.


The initial detention sets the tone. Any traffic stop is a stressful situation for a policeman, and when the people react like this it just ratchets it up. How lucid are you after, say, being in a moderate traffic wreck, or having something else stressful hit?

Another way to put it from my point of view is why is everyone glossing over the initial reaction of Moates and the women with him?

And he tells the other two women a couple of times to get back in the car, and the younger one is yelling at him and waving her arms. A lone police officer can't handle all 3 at once.

Ronnie Dobbs2 03-26-2009 03:10 PM

Why, when the nurses came out to validate the story, wouldn't he at least let him go and deal with this after she passed?

JediKooter 03-26-2009 03:13 PM

Lovelle Mixon was a waste to humanity. His DNA was linked to the rape of a 12 year old girl the day before he killed those police officers.

larrymcg421 03-26-2009 03:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gstelmack (Post 1978026)
Watched the first 3 minutes or so of the video. Let me see:

1) Moates runs for a full minute after the cop turns on the lights and chases him, including a "rolling stop" through a stop sign with the cop right behind him, all the way to a parking place.

2) Woman jumps out and immediately heads for the hospital. Cop tells her to get back in the car, she argues. Other woman gets out, grabs her while she's yelling and pointing at the cop, and the two head for the front door while Moates gets out and walks toward the cop car.

3) Moates argues with the cop about the license and insurance.

3 strikes and you're out. He pulls over right away and explains to the cop, he's got a much better shot of making it in and getting cooperation like EaglesFan27 mentions. Run, yell at the cop, and have two people walk away after being told to stay in the car, I'm not surprised the cop is nervous. Again, routine traffic stop in Oakland leads to four dead officers. I'd be nervous, too.


Okay, so your story makes the cop seem worse. If he's nervous and doesn't do anything about th epeople who ran into the hospital, but focuses ont he people who stayed behind asking htem about insurance, then he DEFINITELY deserves to be out of a job.

Karlifornia 03-26-2009 03:16 PM

The police die in the line of duty. There tons of great cops in the world. Yes, yes, a thousand times yes.

These people are trying to see a loved one in their final moments of life. Do you think you might be a little rattled yourself?

I don't want a cop that tells me he "can screw me over". Like someone said upthread, he's there to protect and serve. He went beyond protecting himself or other citizens. And he failed to serve. This was a once in a lifetime circumstance for this Moats guy. If does the same thing running late to a job interview or some bullshit, then fine, give him 10 tickets.

You know how people always give cops excuses for breaking the law, to try to garner empathy? This one was actually the truth! And it was corroborated by nurses and other police officers! And he still gave him a ticket! How does that pass the smell test of human decency at all? If this is how it's gonna be, then just start working on robots to replace cops.

molson 03-26-2009 03:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Huckleberry (Post 1978028)
No, those peopple deserve to have their asses kicked. But any officer that kills a citizen in the future because of these clowns' behavior is even more of a thug than they are.


If it was concious, then definitely. I didn't mean to condone any "revenge" action by anyone - I was just referring to the fear and split-second reactions such things can cause.

Just as black citizens may react differently around white cops becaue of the publicity of certain news stories, so might white cops have an added fear around black citizens they come in contact with - knowing how many of them would celebrate their death.

So just like bad cops are bad beyond their crime for the collateral effects their bad acts cause, so are bad citizens bad beyond their actions against cops.

This cop sounds like he was a jerk (no cop should ever say "I can screw you over" - if that's really on the video, that alone is worthy of discipline). Front page status on ESPN.com though tells me people are just looking to pick fights and be mad.

Radii 03-26-2009 03:20 PM

Man, I understand what gstelmack is saying, but around the 13:30 mark when the nurse comes out and says "listen the mother is dying right now" and the cop still decides he has to admonish the driver multiple times before letting him run into the hospital... I don't see any reason for the officer to be disciplined officially or anything, but that just hurts to watch. The first 4 or 5 minutes is a high stress situation and its all understandable on both sides. But the end is just awful. Again I'm sure professionally there's nothing wrong with this, but watching the end just makes me extremely upset.

gstelmack 03-26-2009 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gstelmack (Post 1977884)
This was a misunderstanding on both sides as these things often are.


From my first post in this thread. That's the point I'm trying to make. Everyone wants to focus on the later events and what the cop did, but no one wants to put any blame on Moates for how he and his passengers got this thing rolling. They have to take some responsibility. I mean, come on, telling the cop to go find the insurance himself? How is this going to have a good ending?

Part of what annoys me is both articles quoted in here skip over that specific quote from Moates, which helps build the early agitation over the cop.

larrymcg421 03-26-2009 03:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by gstelmack (Post 1978051)
From my first post in this thread. That's the point I'm trying to make. Everyone wants to focus on the later events and what the cop did, but no one wants to put any blame on Moates for how he and his passengers got this thing rolling. They have to take some responsibility. I mean, come on, telling the cop to go find the insurance himself? How is this going to have a good ending?

Part of what annoys me is both articles quoted in here skip over that specific quote from Moates, which helps build the early agitation over the cop.


I think it probably comes down to people expecting more from police officers than from someone whose relative is literally minutes away from dying.

larrymcg421 03-26-2009 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by molson (Post 1978004)
People LOVE the jerk cop stories. It just sets something off.

Four murdered cops in Oakland doesn't arise the same kind of passion.


We often talk about stuff that isn't the very worst thing possible. It would be a pretty borinbg board if we restricted ourselves to that. I think it's a safe bet that everyone here thinks the person who killed those police officers isn evil scumbag. If you want to have a discussion of it because you don't think it gets enough attention, maybe you should start a thread about it. But it's silly to say we can't be upset about this because something else happened that is much worse.

molson 03-26-2009 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by larrymcg421 (Post 1978065)
I think it probably comes down to people expecting more from police officers than from someone whose relative is literally minutes away from dying.


That's probably reasonable to expect more from the officer, but if you want to make sure you're with that dying relative - don't break laws and mouth off at cops. The moral validation you get from the community afterwards probably isn't worth what you lost. (though I think to some people, it actually might be). I think it makes someone feel energized and "alive" when you feel you have moral superiority to someone in authority.

molson 03-26-2009 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by larrymcg421 (Post 1978070)
We often talk about stuff that isn't the very worst thing possible. It would be a pretty borinbg board if we restricted ourselves to that. I think it's a safe bet that everyone here thinks the person who killed those police officers isn evil scumbag. If you want to have a discussion of it because you don't think it gets enough attention, maybe you should start a thread about it. But it's silly to say we can't be upset about this because something else happened that is much worse.


That's true, and I think when I said that, I had an expectation that this thread would go in a different direction.

Pyser 03-26-2009 03:49 PM

is not ok to break the law (speed, run reds when its safe) when your wife is in labor? i thought that was kind of accepted in a real emergency situation.

this qualifies as one to me.

JonInMiddleGA 03-26-2009 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SackAttack (Post 1978015)
Not just insurance. Arrest warrants, too.


In my experience, checking for outstanding warrants is routine procedure on every traffic stop. It is here in Georgia at least, has been as far back as I can remember, at least 25 years or so.


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