Possible Penguins relocation
 

So it looks like more and more obvious that the city of Pittsburgh won't get a new arena anytime soon so the Pittsburgh Penguins, as good a hockey city as Pittsburgh is, are likely going to relocate either this summer or next summer. The possible markets for this relocation are:

Kansas City - The Sprint Center looks like a state-of-art arena waiting for a team, there would also be no competition with the NBA. Questionnable wether Kansas City would support the team.

Houston - Huge city with a very good arena in the Toyota Center; there would still be a lot of competition with the Texans, the Astros, the Rockets, college sports, etc.

Portland - The Rose Garden is an OK arena for an NHL team, is Portland a big enough market to support both the Trailblazers and an NHL team?

Seattle - It doesn't look like they have any chance; no arena (I think the SuperSonics have a clause to not be in competition with an NHL team) and questionnable fan support.

Las Vegas - I hope not... It's a market that every sports league is considering, but there are questions about the gambling problems that may occur and wether there would be any fans. The NHL doesn't need a second team in the desert.

Wisconsin - Either Madison or Milwaukee. They have great support of the U of Wisconsin and have a great history in college hockey; still a big question mark and probably not among the frontrunners.

Hartford - There would certainly be enough support, but there is no suitable arena and it doesn't seem like one is going to be built soon.

Winnipeg - The 15,000 seats arena might be a bit too small for the NHL, but it's a real hockey hotbed with true hardcore fans. I don't think the NHL wants to move Crosby and Malkin to Canada.

Quebec - Don't have an arena, but is probably the best hockey market without an NHL team. The mayor has no interest in building an arena, and combined with the fact that the NHL probably don't want to move Crosby and Malkin to Canada, I think it's farfetched.

Southern Ontario - It was mentionned earlier, I think it's a silly idea.

What do you guys think; even those who don't know much hockey but who live in these areas?

Re:Southern Ontario...prolly the BEST choice out of all these listed.Certainly the most hockey interest out of those places listed from the states.Why not 2 teams in Toronto ala the Clips/Lakers?

Maybe I'm just being overly optimistic, but I think the Penguins will stay in Pittsburgh. It's a shame that Isle of Capri won't be building an arena in Pittsburgh, but I expect the state to work out a deal with the Penguins. I don't know what makes me say that, so I guess it's just a hunch.

Of the places you mentioned, fans in Winnipeg and Hartford are the ones most likely to give the team the same support that it gets in Pittsburgh. I don't find it likely that the team will move to a city that already had a team, though (regardless of the reasons that those other teams moved).

That leaves Houston and Kansas City as the other realistic possibilities. I don't know much about either place, but I don't think Houston can effectively support two pro hockey teams (with the AHL's Aeros already being there). Two pro hockey teams may work in Chicago or Philadelphia, but I don't know about Houston. As for Kansas City, I have no idea, but KC's Arena Football team would suffer with an NHL team moving in, and that's a shame.

(long live the AFL)

I don't think K.C is an option.The NHL would be stupid to revisit an old site that they have used before,Look at Atlanta.

...and I'd be stupid for forgetting that my favorite team originated in Kansas City. Ooooops.

I'd love to see the team go to Canada, but I don't think that would happen.

As for the rest... Not sure. I wouldn't mind seeing Pittsburgh head out West so that Detroit could move into the Eastern Conference. That would make their schedule significantly less taxing travel-wise and when all is said and done they'd likely be back in the same division as Toronto. I'd enjoy that.

That said, I'd like the Pens to stay in Pitsburgh if at all possible.

HB you may get your wish...apparenly the league officials are talking about make 4 divisions instead of the 6 they have now.

The Leafs, Wings, and Blackhawks should be in the same division. It's idiotic that they aren't.

Bring back the damn Chuck Norris division and then we'd see some real hockey :D

That's another thing. Hockey had the coolest division names in any sport, so what the hell were they thinking when they disposed of them? The NHL makes so many stupid decisions, it's ridiculous.

I believe an interested owner wants to bring a team back to Hartford. They seem to have an arena proposal in the wings.

What do you think of Quebec City and Baltimore? Would the Southern Ontario team be put in Toronto or Hamilton? Could Southern Ontario support three teams (throw in the Sabres, which do draw a nice base from the border).

Hockey is such an afterthought in Baltimore. When I was in college, they preempted NHL playoff games with the PBA...and local HS basketball. It would be a horrible choice, IMO.

In case you haven't heard, the Sonics will be gone soon, so there will not be any competition. And the Key Arena, while not the greatest anymore, can still get the job done for hockey (it already is used for WHL Seattle Thunderbirds). So I wouldn't rule them out, except for what I believe would be an unstable fan base.

And if they don't leave, as I understand it, the current ownership group is looking at the only option being to build a brand new arena in the suburbs -- a multi-purpose building that could also house and NHL franchise.

Hockey will never work in Seattle. Fans here only seem to have room in their hearts for the Mariners and recently, the Seahawks. Not only that, but the few hockey fans that are in the area already root for the Canucks.

Moving the Penguins to Seattle would be a disaster.

Arco Arena in Sacramento will probably be vacant soon...

I would love if they could get a new arena done in Pittsburgh, but I'm not expecting much. Hell, a state of the art arena might even bring an NBA team to the city. The place they play at now sucks, it's a pain to get to via the interstate. It would have been nice to throw something up when they were spreading the bread for the Steelers/Pirates fields.

put em in canada. dont care where. id vote for toronto, they can support a second team.

Would you be willing to settle for the Hawks?

Put them in Hartford, call them the Whalers, and get it over with already.

There is that idea.

Go Scouts! I mean, go Rockies! I mean..Go Devils! :)

Some ESPN columnist had a problem with the new arena in Newark saying it's a bad idea, but..I really believe that having an arena that is centrally located is the best idea ever. Who wants to go to the Meadowlands when they have to work the next day? It's too remote, but most folks just aren't smart enough to figure that out.

And Nets will move there soon too. The Brooklyn deal is as bad an idea is any.

Meh. There are already too many hockey teams in California. Take the Ducks or the Kings. Your choice.

The NBA-ification of the NHL killed a lot of the tradition and personalization of the sport.

The NHL tried to break from it's "niche" status and go big. Failed miserably. They should've realized that there's a big difference between grabbing a ball and going outside and the hockey equivalent.

Hockey in Houston?! LMFAO!

Dark Cloud hinted at the argument against this line of thinking, but I'll spell it out. The Kansas City Scouts failed and relocated to Denver and became the Colorado Rockies, which also failed and moved to New Jersey. By the line of thought that revisiting an old site is a stupid idea, then putting the Avalanche in Denver was a stupid idea.

Kansas City has a lot going for it. One is that all of the suites are presold, which means there is a big chunk of money already there. Now that the possibility of getting the Penguis looks realistic, they are starting to presell premium club seats before they even have a team for the Sprint Center.

Kansas City has never abused hockey; hockey abused Kansas City. The Scouts were a Mickey Mouse operation, as evidenced by their failure in Denver too. They also had to compete with the NBA in a building in a shitty location. The new Sprint Center is the jewel of a new major entertainment district. Those two differences are huge.

In the early '90s, we had an IHL team that was affiliated with San Jose, and the Sharks had a bunch a great young studs at the time. The team was a winner, and the building was packed -- they led the IHL in attendance for a few years. Then San Jose jerked their affiliation to join with a team closer to California and when we ended up with a team of never-was has beens and never-would losers, the fan interest soured. Then the IHL imploded and we lost the team through no fault of our own.

If hockey gets to Kansas City first, it will be a winner. I don't think we can support both a NBA and NHL team, but whichever look puts a team here first will be successful. I'd LOVE to land the Penguins because it's a team on the rise.

Kansas City also has the connections. Boots Del Biaggio owns the NHL rights to put a team in the Sprint Center, and he had an agreement to buy the team before they tried to go the Isle of Capri route. He also owned a minor league team with Mario Lemieux, and he and Luc Robitaille are both involved with Anschutz Entertainment who manages the Sprint Center.

I actually thought DC was arguing that the NHL shouldn't make the same mistake it has with Atlanta...

It's working for the Aeros.

I would love to see an NHL team move back into Hartford, Winnipeg or Quebec. I hate that Bettman is so set against putting a team back in Canada where hockey is the national sport and truly loved, but hey I guess it is all about the $$$.

For the reasons above, KC seems like the only logical choice. Maybe Portland has an outside chance with an already established AHL team and arena.

If that doesn't work out, Stockton has a new arena.

I could probably deal with them. I grew up on the TBS Hawks, Nique, et al.

Good point... if the city of Stockton paid $1 million just to secure a Neil Diamond concert, imagine what they'd shell out for an NHL franchise.

The sooner Bettman realizes that the NHL is a gate driven league and not a tv driven league the better off the NHL will be.The only reason for him not to put this team in Canada is because of tv....which makes no sense as the NHL TV deal is shit.

I don't care where the team ends up as long as it is properly supported,i am not against an American city getting the team...but having said that i truly do beleive the team would do better in Winnipeg or Quebec.

I vote for Winnipeg.

dispersal draft

Bettman trying to turn hockey into basketball. He's responsible for a lot of the stupid decisions and the owners shouldn't have bought into it.

Well..I don't know what I think of Kansas City. Seems like a bad idea to me. I mean, I get why they want a team for that arena and an intra-state rivalry with the Blues would be great.

But, I think there are other markets -- Hartford and Winnipeg -- are two that stick out in my mind as much better candidates.

Of course, KC has what neither of them does...a brand spankin' new arena without a tenant.

I think there are enough teams in crappy markets, that there should be enough teams to go around, if one wanted to get into that.

But I pray Houston doesn't get this team. That's a terrible idea on a lot of levels. But, this is Bettman's league. So prepare for a disaster, if there was one.

I hope they go to Kansas City...a hockey team there might make Oklahoma City a better NBA relocation site (except for the Sonics, because they will go to OKC if they leave Seattle...but I bet the suburbs make their arena for the Bennett group). Plus, I really don't want hockey here over basketball.

Woo! Go Aeros!

SI

You sir are the King of Kings.

So why is it that hartford seems to be a good idea over kc/houston, when hartford lost their previous team to a move less then 10 years ago.

I'm not trying to be mean, it just doesn't make sense to me

I think the league has realized it's mistake moving into the South too quickly and with too many teams. Now that isn't really an argument for Hartford over Houston but I think that there are a lot of warm weather franchises who are wondering if it's ever going to 'work'.

The NHL could have been a great league, if they had been bright enough to break the union 15 years ago instead of waiting until now. Had they just cancelled the season back during the last lockout they could have skipped the extra expansions and kept the league in cities like Hartford and Winnipeg.

They tried to roll with the NBA, instead of staying with 21 teams they felt the need to move to 30 (or however many there are now, I'm not paying any attention). They felt that doing stupid things like renaming the divisions would make them more popular with the common fan when it really just made them less popular with their hardcore fan.

The NHL probably is never coming back to Hartford. Bettman doesn't want a team here, the Bruins and Rangers don't want a team here. There is some support for a new arena, but it's a long way from being built and no one is going to move without that building being delivered. Hartford is a better NHL market then probably 7-8 cities that have teams, there is money here and many more kids here grow up playing hockey in New England then anywhere but Canada and Minnesota.

You would think it would translate but at the end of the day Connecticut just doesn't have great sports fans. The 'average' fan will only support a winner and there just aren't enough corporate headquarters here to support the amount of money that needs to be spent to support pro franchises.

Losing the team in Hartford was never due to a lack of fan support. It was strictly related to the revenues coming in from the stadium (the Civic Center was actually a part of a mall in Hartford and is terribly outdated) and Karmanos getting a sweethart deal from the officials in Raliegh. It took several seasons for the Hurricanes attendence to reach the levels they had in Hartford.

A team in Hartford even with the attendence numbers the lame duck Whalers had their final season was approximately 14,000 about 87% of capacity at the old Mall. That mark would give the Whalers a higher total attendence then original 6 members Chicago and Boston. They'd also be outdrawing Washington, St. Louis, the Islanders, New Jersey, and Phoenix. Percentage-wise they'd be approximately even with the Kings at around 20th place. This would add Nashville, Atlanta, and Florida to the list of teams that Hartford would outdraw. Plus getting the Penguins would seem to bring things full circle. The franchise in Hartford hit its low point when GM Eddie Johnston traded Ron Francis and Ulf Samuelsson (two of the most popular Whalers) to Pittsburgh, then Johnston left to go coach the Penguins to the Stanley Cup the next year. The state does in fact own the Whaler name and all trademarks, so a relocated team could be called the Whalers and don the old jerseys. There is local ownership ready to build an arena should they acquire a team.

The problems with Hartford are: Neither New York team nor Boston wants the Whalers in the Hartford market. The arena is less viable now then it was in the 90's and construction on a new arena has not started. Furthermore the Civic Center is presently managed by Madison Square Garden, so its highly unlikely that MSG would offer support to a rival team.

Its a pipedream, but I wish the Whalers would come back, I try to watch hockey now, but I just can't get into it the way I did when I had my favorite team to root for.

As I see it there are only two ways this turns out, maybe three. What I think will happen, though it doesn't look too likely right now, is that the city\county\state will cave and Mario will have his new arena in Pittsburgh. This is what I want to happen, and this is what the league wants. Pittsburgh can support an NHL team, and I'd rather not see a team move from a hockey market only to return via another franchise later on, see Minnesota.

However if the team moves there's really only two places it's going to end up, Kansas City... and the very long shot, Las Vegas. If Mario does decide to sell the team again, there are confirmed (by the leagues) buyers ready to move the teams to those two cities. KC has the arena the NHL really wants to put a franchise in, and Vegas has the political will to build one. The team is not going to Canada... but I'll get to that later.

If we do see a team move, like I said, I'd rather it not be the Penguins. There are so many other franchises that desperately need new cities... both Florida teams, Atlanta, Phoenix, etc. Those places will never be hockey markets, and they should have never had teams put there in the first place. Which leads me to...

Mr. Bettman. It is clear that he still holds the same mandate, and goal they he did when he first became commissioner. He wants to grow the game in the US, but he wants to do that by putting franchises in big markets, even if they shouldn't have hockey teams in them. He wants teams in Houston, Vegas, Kansas City, and Portland. If someone wants to move a team anywhere else, he's going to fight them tooth and nail.

I don't really get why he is continuing to hold this POV, or why the league governors are backing him on this. It has failed, and failed horribly.

Why not concentrate on making the league healthier, and then move teams to those sexy markets. IMO, it would benefit the league so much more, to have teams in cities where people actually want to go to the arena, and to have owners that are genuinely interested in the team.

As for Canada... it's not going to happen any time soon. The southern Ontario region is THE best place to put a team, if the league wants healthy franchises. It is not silly like someone previously said, it's smart. But it won't happen... and when it does, it certainly won't be the Penguins. The league does not want Crosby in Canada... they want him to spread the game like Gretzky did, and he can't do that up here.

The NHL needs to get back into Hartford, Winnipeg, and Quebec City... and they need at least one more team in southern Ontario... IF having strong franchises is their goal. It seems they are more interested in having large markets, because they think that will give them a bigger national television market. That's not going to happen on OLN, but still that doesn't seem to matter to Bettman and the NHL.

While up beating up on Bettman... if they increase the size of the nets, I will never watch the NHL again, it will have become a joke league. They should instead be making youth nets smaller, so kids 5-6 years old aren't playing with NHL size nets... maybe then they'd learn to score more.

Amen... I pretty much agree 100% with this entire post.

My understanding is Tampa Bay is actually one of the better markets of the Sun Belt teams in hockey, along with Dallas. They even managed to get awarded the Frozen Four in 2012 or something.

But Atlanta, Florida, Nashville and Phoenix need to go pronto. Did Nashville build that arena for hockey, though? At least with the other two, someone else is using the arena or in the case of the Panthers, it doesn't matter one way or another. No one would notice if they left.

Though, interestingly, Atlanta has better attendance per home game than Pittsburgh this season. As for Tampa Bay, they aren't just one of the better Sun Belt teams. They are THIRD in attendance per home game in the entire NHL! Trailing only Montreal & Detroit. Though they do have a bigger stadium than Toronto, Calgary, etc.

It is intersting that Boston, Washington and NJ are so low. They are playing pretty decent hockey. Though I guess with Boston and Washington, fan favs have been dealt, and NJ has never drawl well, not even when they were winning those Stanley Cups.

New Jersey doesn't draw well because the Meadowlands don't have a NJ Transit rail link. But no one talks about that. It's too hard to get there during the week if you live in the Central part of the state.

The new arena will truly test whether the market will draw or not.

I used to live in Jersey... the reason they don't draw well is because there are already too many Rangers and Flyers fans in the state. There isn't that big of a pool of left over fans to draw from. I don't think a Newark stadium will help all that much (maybe a little bit).

Kansas City held their presss conference today to outline the general terms of their offer to the Penguins for moving to KC. In a nutshell, it's a sweetheart of a deal -- no rent and they get a share of all building revenue, not just hockey revenue.

Mario and his group were in town yesterday to tour the building and meet with AEG.

Boston has to deal with bad ownership and management that has made it abundently clear that they are all about making huge profits. They are one of the most expensive tickets in the leage and due to all the corporate sales that occur they do not care about playing a half empty arena or bringing in some real talent because I they are doing well without it. It will be like this for the foreseeable future.

I believe it will. Especially once the Nets move there, too. If folks will go to Newark to watch opera at the NJPAC, I have no doubt they'll go to a Devils or a Nets game there at a brand spanking new arena and avoid the hefty parking prices and traffic in NYC.

So, you don't expect the Nets to end up in Brooklyn?

They've already extended their lease at the Meadowlands until 2010. And state officials are pushing hard to close the arena there once the Newark Arena opens. The only reason the one in Newark wasn't state funded, was because of lobbyists in both the boons of north jersey and south jersey folks, being upset because of course, suburban New Jerseyeans hate their cities and want to forget they exist.

Anyway...no. That arena in Brooklyn was doomed from the start and the only reason Bruce RATner was interested in the Nets, was to get the precious real estate that he's going to bulldoze to build gentrified lots of expensive places that no one currently in that neighborhood could ever hope to afford.

He had no community backing, short of part-owner Jay-Z.

It was DOA and that's why they haven't so much as broken ground ceremonially. Once the Devils abandon the Continental Airlines arena, there will be no reason for the Nets to stay in the boons by themselves.

The Devils already offered them a chance to move there that remains an open-ended invite and well, basketball would play a lot better to the locals in Newark than hockey ever would, plus it'd have all the other advantages such as close access to Newark Penn Station, etc.

It just makes sense. No one thought minor league baseball would work there and it has. The NJPAC was the first major investment at that point in the city and with their new mayor needing real results, etc., having two major teams move to the city will be a PR coup. The Devils are already on board and so, yeah.

I think RATner would need to sell the team though, before they'd move to Newark. No way he wants anything to do with the team once the arena deal in Brooklyn is offically declared dead.

Joe I'm sorry but this needs to be said. "Spoken like a true canadian." It does not need to be cold out for people to enjoy hockey. Tampa Bay not only puts a good product on the ice but they are #3 in attendance right now. They might be the most successful expansion product for the NHL in the last 20 years. Getting rid of them would be the silliest thing the NHL has even done.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/news/story?id=2720130

Yeah, it's a hell of a deal it seems. And one of the venture capitalists that helped get the arena built, has an agreement to own any team that moves to KC with the arena. And he and Mario co-own a minor league club.

This deal is as good as done. 30 days and the Pens will make their decision. Hello KC Pens.

I really hope they change the name. KC Penguins is terrible

Agreed. "Hockey Bay" is a good market and they've won a Cup. It's full of northeastern snowbirds. I joked that you know those people have juice when they can get a baseball team for the sole purpose of watching the Yankees and Red Sox play without having to travel north each year.


I hated that Carolina got a team, but if ownership invests and the team wins..I have no gripe. And yes, I know they moved there and it was a sweetheart deal. But hey, if it works...

The Panthers need to go, though.

KC Sunshine

Agreed. But to what? Bring back the Scouts? Probably not. So, I wonder what they'll do with that.

Kansas City Krosbys

So, my guess is KC gets lined up; Mario leverages the offer to the gov't in Pitt; if they don't come close, then the team is gone.

This whole thing makes me sick. :(

The free rent deal isn't as sweet as it sounds. KC will still control most of the revenue due to parking and concessions. Pittsburgh is going to offer the Pens complete control over the revenue due to parking and concessions. Plan B only wants the Pens to pay somewhere around $3 million a year which they can offset with selling the naming rights.

Plus I think the NHL is going to make it difficult for the Pens to be moved. If Plan B is anywhere near feasible Gary Bettman will make it hard for the Pens to be moved. You can knock the Pens play for the past few years, but they still drew good. Percentagewise they are in the middle of the pack and that is with a run down arena.

Now with a good, young, upcoming team and a new arena that place would be filled most nights.

Will the NHL move another team to KC, then? Seems like a dream for that league to have a city that actually wants in. And not just some city with a arena and nothing else to put it in.

On second thought....

The free rent isn't the real sweetner -- it's the one-half management ownership in the building with no buy-in. The Penguins would get one-half of all building revenue, which includes non-hockey revenue. That means the Penguins would get half the revenue from concerts, college basketball games and other events. The Sprint Center has also already sold all of its suites, so they are guaranteeing that revenue. Plus they get a partner willing to buy into the team -- it's revenue bonanza for the team owners.

No doubt that this is a legitimate option if the Pens can't get what they want in Pittsburgh. Anschutz made it clear in they understand that Pittsburgh doesn't need to match this offer to keep the team. And Kansas City isn't going to try and outbid Pittsburgh. So if they pull off Plan B in the next 30 days, the Penguins will stay. But the city has had eight years to put its act together, so who thinks that will happen in the next month?

Public sentiment on sports radio thus far sounds like Kansas City Penguins is great with us -- it's a great name and I wouldn't want it changed.

Yeah, I don't see what's so awful about KC Penguins. Yes, it's not alliterative like Pittsburgh, but as someone on the radio put it, it's not as if there were Penguins in Pittsburgh.

SI

The KC group leader said on talk radio that he believes it's a better than 50/50 chance that the Pens move to KC. He also said that if the Pens don't happen to move to KC, he's nearly certain that KC will have a NHL franchise via a move or expansion for the 2008-2009 season. He said the NHL commish is eager to get a team in KC as soon as possible.

I would love to see Quebec City or Winnipeg.

Just what the NHL needs: more expansion.

Not expansion, relocation.

Mizzou B-ball fan said KC thinks they're a good shot for expansion if they don't get the Pens.

Bettman has been quoted as wanting to 'grow' the league. Privately, they have discussed expansion once a new TV contract is done as they are not happy with the current one.

My two cents is this. I don't think KC would be a good market to go to. The midwest is football and basketball country and while St. Louis has done ok with the Blues (until lately) it is a much larger city than KC and at least has a positive history with hockey.

Regarding teams in the southern US. I have no problem with it but Bettman needs to admit that some markets just are not working. Tampa is solid, I would give Atlanta a thumbs up because they have had nothing but crap teams until this season so let's see if they support a winner before we condemn them. I think the Panthers may be a lost cause. Nashville is a concern because they have had good teams in the last few years and still struggle at the gate.

As for Pittsburgh my gut says they stay in Pittsburgh and I think that is how it should be. Pittsburgh over the years has a solid history of supporting that team and I think it will get done to let them stay. Here is what I would like to see happen (in my wildest dreams).

Pittsburgh stays put.
Florida Panthers moves to Quebec City (Les Nordiques return)
Nashville moves to Winnipeg.

KC had a minor league team for over 10 years during the 90s that averaged over 13,000 people/game on the weekends and 10,000+ on weekdays. Also, every single NHL exhibition game held in KC over the past several seasons has sold out despite no local interest in any of those teams. There's a reason KC is on the top of the NHL 'next up' list. New arena and a huge fan base hungry for hockey. While the midwest is a big college basketball hotbed, the NBA honestly isn't a big sport here. Most don't like the NBA-style of game in the midwest.

Yes I have read up on KC's minor league team and they had success. But that wa sin the 90s and a minor league team. The NHL team would have MUCH more expensive tickets than the $15 (estimated) tickets that the minor league team had. I just wonder if it would be as successful with a much more expensive night out at the game.

The ticket prices are actually pretty reasonable. Season tickets for all home games will range from $350 for end seats in the upper deck (just under $10/game) all the way up to $5,000 for prime seats on the glass. With that said, all 72 of the suites are already sold and they are currently running a season ticket drive. Corporations alone have already pledged to purchase a large portion of tickets in the arena. They'll most likely sell 80% of the arena in season tickets between corporations and individuals once it's all said and done. The NHL is aware of that. It's a big improvement over the revenue situation in Pittsburgh.

Portland always has a loud group of people fighting to bring hockey in. I honestly don't think that people would support the team well enough, but it's possible that the group that owns the Rose Garden could provide a good schedule that might get people in the doors.

On a side note, the Blazers are offering a new ticket package right now:

You get 2 tickets to 3 games (Suns 2/6, Bobcats 3/1, and the Pistons 3/14) PLUS 2 movie passes AND a $20 Gift Certificate for McCormick and Schmick's Seafood Restaurants for $90 - $400 depending on seats.

Quebec City doesn't have an arena and there was a collective yawn when the Nords left. Hartford would be a much better market and I think the promise of a team could get them to get themselves together to get an arena there. And it's not as if any of the NY-area teams could whine, because there was a team there once before and it's a solid market with a good building if they can get said good building.

Umm, it's not like the KC area is poor...look at Michigan, we lead the nation in unemployment, the Red Wings are some of the most expensive tickets in the league, and they still sell-out every game.

Why did the Cheifs fold?

Pittsburgh 'sweetened' there deal when they met with Mario this week. Another thing to consider is that Mario's billionaire partner helped raise a lot of money for PA's Gov. Ed Rendell. They are buddies and Rendell likes to take care of his people. Also, Rendell is close to the Flyers owner and would influence him and other owners to block a potential move (got the info from KDKA.com).

Is Mark Cuban and his group still in the running?

As of now, Mario has taken the Pens off the market. I don't know if this means that he's not listening to offers or not, and I won't believe Cuban is serious until Mario says it himself.

I thought the calls that the Penguins played in a hellhole might have been overstated, until I saw this video today of the visitor's locker room. Damn, I've seen high schools that have better facilities. Just plain sad.

hxxp://www2.sportsnet.ca/video/videoPlayer.php?url=rtmp://38.99.151.50/sportsnet/SCA_MELLON_07_01_21.1.flv

Pittsburgh is quickly running out of time and Lemieux isn't exactly enthralled with the 'best and final' offer from Pittsburgh and Pennsylvania politicians.

http://sports.espn.go.com/nhl/news/story?id=2740053

Talk in KC is that Lemieux's patience with the Pittsburgh officials is wearing really thin. It's not like Pittsburgh didn't know it was coming. They've been saying they need to replace Mellon Arena for several years now.

great googely moogely

Alot of this, in my opinion, is the two sides negotiating through the media, so if/when it falls through, they can all point and say "Hey, look, we did the best we could"--from both sides.

More recent, as of this afternoon.
http://www.postgazette.com/pg/07024/756398-100.stm

Honestly, I think the politicians have more to lose in this case. No one would blame the Lemieux group if the team ended up leaving. He stepped in to buy the team and keep it in Pittsburgh. The city and state have had plenty of time to get this ironed out and haven't done so. The government officials are playing with fire and risking losing the team.

If a city like KC can give $500 million to the Royals and Chiefs to renovate their stadiums and build a brand new $250 million arena at the same time, surely Pittsburgh can find money to build a new arena. If they can't, they maybe the Penguins shouldn't stay, which may be the conclusion that Lemieux and the other owners may be coming to at this point.

I assume you're asking about the Scouts, our short-lived NHL team in the '70s. They left town for several reasons, the significant issue being that leagues across the board were struggling in the '70s, the NHL specifically. It's important to note that the Scouts left for Denver to become the Colorado Rockies before failing there and winding up in New Jersey. Denver seems to be doing OK second time around. The No. 2 issue is that Kansas City built its old arena in the absolutely ghetto part of town in the middle of a rundown industrial warehouse area that was a pit. The Kings left in the mid-80s primarily because of the arena -- support for the team was strong, but the arena was a shithole. The new arena is going to be crown jewel in the middle of entertainment district in the heart of dowtown.
No doubt that's exactly what is happening. Pittsburgh's latest proposal still isn't as good as Kansas City's -- I'm seeing what looks like the Penguins having to lay out about $10 million a year to buy out Isle of Capri's deal and contribute to the building before they start getting revenue in addition to giving up development rights on the ground they currently own. In, KC they will pay no money and get half of all building revenues.

I think Mario is playing hardball. If Pennsylvania doesn't sweeten the offer, I think KC has a chance. But I do think the posturing is to get the best deal in Pittsburgh.

Houston is also in on the game as a possible relocation site. Evidently Mario is planning on making a couple of visits since he is in Dallas for the All-Star break.

Sadly, your logical thinking would be lost on a good percentage of the Pittsburgh population. Somehow, they'd see it as Mario owing it to them (much in the same way Cowher owed the fans to not quit/tell us why he's leaving/blah blah blah). They expect the politicians to be liars.


The most recent development--Don Barden, whose group won the Pittsburgh casino license and has pledged $7.5M a year towards a building, is now involved in the sharing of revenues. In the original meeting, Barden was not present or his participation, outside of the slots revenue funding (which is technically with the state, not the Pens). The second meeting he is there, and this splitting of parking and redevelopment revenue is added. Also, yearly rent of $2M, not discussed in the first meeting, was added.

I am not saying the deal itself is not pretty sweet. However, when you put your "best deal on the table" in the first meeting, and then add a $2M a year rent AND split of previously undiscussed revenue...you've changed the deal.

My gut feeling is the deal is good enough that, if it comes to it, the NHL would step in and say a fair enough plan is in place to block the relocation.

Not true. No one would have blamed him if the city/state hadn't put forward a good offer, but from what I've seen, the deal on the table now is pretty good. And you'd better believe that a lot of us that love Mario would turn on him in a heartbeat if he moves our team.

I think involving Barden in the mix is what's really irked Pens ownership. It wasn't a smart move by Rendell to invite him to the meeting. But what can we expect from the Governor of Philadelphia? You know that if this was the Flyers, there never would have been any talk of the team moving. Rendell would have ensured that the state found a way to build them a new arena a long time ago.

Right...the question comes down to:

50% of all building revenue in KC <=> 100% of building revenue + portion of parking revenue/arena development revenue + naming rights $$$ - $2M/year rental - 18% (most recent number) of total arena cost - $10M up front IOC buyout

They know, with the current market for Pens fans, and team pointed upwards, they are guaranteed many sellouts. Plus all the other revenue that comes with a new building (suites, etc). While the rent free building in KC sounds nice, if they are playing to a 60% full building, how long before it is a loss compared to what would have been generated in Pittsburgh?

And that $10M...that might be the stupidiest thing I've ever seen. Why in the world the ownership agreed to that with IOC is beyond me.

If this is true, it is probably the stupidest thing ever. Almost like Mario and company wanted an excuse to get out of town if the IOC deal didn't come about. However, didn't the Pens keep $10 million from Balsillie when he withdrew his bid?

It should also be noted that the Nordiques walked into Denver and promptly won a Stanley Cup, then continued to be one of the half-dozen most dominant teams in the league for a decade. This is a pretty good recipe for success regardless of the location. If you send Winnipeg to Denver and Quebec to Phoenix...

Thankfully, for whoever gets the Penguins, there is a half-decent chance of experiencing something similar, so I could see the Penguins working in KC (just as I could see that team working in a lot of places). Crosby, Malkin, Staal, Fleury... good grief, that's a goldmine Pittsburgh is letting slip away.

Yes, allegedly, they did. But, they didn't know that would happen when they signed the IOC deal. Still doesn't change the fact that was a dumb ass move.

Apparently, Bettman loves the city for a relocation.

Lemieux is in Dallas for the All-Star game...however, it appears there are no plans to visit Houston while in Texas.

http://www.postgazette.com/pg/07025/756612-61.stm

Word this morning on the airwaves in KC is that the other cities are no longer being considered as a choice for a move per one of the members of the relocation committee here in KC. The Pens are either staying in Pittsburgh or they're moving to KC. This would seem to correlate with some comments from reps in Houston and Winnipeg.