Life after death? Pondering the meaning of life...
 

My daughter is 22 months old. Soon after she was born, I went through something like a 3 week stretch where every night I would lay in bed terrified of death. I laid there scared that I wouldn't get to see her grow up, graduate HS, graduate college, walk her down the aisle. I assume these are probably normal fears that most normal people have, at least I hope so. :D

I went through a stretch where I was beyond this and things got back to normal, mostly. The last few months, I've been doing this again, but not to the same degree. I'm no longer terrified, but I am fearful. I wonder about all sorts of things related to death. I think about things like not wanting to die by drowning, burning, choking, cancer, etc. I think going to bed one night and not waking up is the way to go. Basically, like most sane people, I don't want to see death coming.

I think I have accepted the fact that my existence the way I know it today is going to come to an end. I don't know if I am still scared of it, but I have a better grasp on my feelings. I'm no longer terrified.

Right around the time I was 18 or so, I started about a 5-8 year stretch where I had a lot of anger and anxiety towards life, especially other people. I had a couple of experiences where I lost faith in the value of friendship, love and overall happiness. During this time, I decided that I wasn't going to be any kind of conformist. I was going to have my own opinions. I've always been a very out spoken person. One of the views that I adopted over this time was that God didn't exist. There was no such thing as God, heaven, hell, etc. Religion to me was the biggest hoax in the history of the world.

My attitude has calmed a great deal over the last 4 years or so. I got married, had kids, things like that. Basically, I got the things in life that I needed. I still have a hard time believing that God exists and this leads me to the next part of this whole thing.

In the last few weeks, I have been spending all of this thinking time, while laying in bed, pondering things like what happens when life as I know it ends. Does heaven exist? Is Earth just the first step on a much longer journey? Is Earth really all there is and once I reach the end then am I no more?

With heaven probably being the major afterlife idea in my culture, I get left with the feeling that I don't want to be left out. If heaven is real, then I want to go, but at the same time I have a hard time believing in it.

So, last night, I was struggling with all of these thoughts and I got the idea that I would post them here and see what you guys have to say and see if that could serve as some kind of therapy for me in this situation. I believe that all of the folks that frequent this board are intelligent and I would like to hear what you guys have to say.

I hope this turns into a good discussion. I have a lot more to get into with this.

"I believe that all of the folks that frequent this board are intelligent and I would like to hear what you guys have to say."

My advice would be to ponder that comment instead of the issues of existence. You would make a great philosophy major. In seriousness though, my advice would be to focus more on living in the present.

I, in no way, let this get in the way of my life. These are just what I am thinking about when I go to sleep at night.

I have tried thinking about other things. As soon as I make the decision to go to bed, I immediately start thinking about these things. I'd say it is an obsession except I only think about it when trying to go to sleep.

to live the afterlife is to die. god i love being invincible.

Google "Jessica Simpson Daisy Duke" before you go to bed.

:) Believe me, I have tried a lot of different things to help me with it. Nothing works.

I'm not really worried about not thinking about it anymore. Hell, I don't know what I'm after here. :D

1. Do you have any kind of spiritual belief?

2. To you, who is Jesus?

3. Do you believe there is a heaven and a hell?

4. If you died right now, where would you go? If heaven, why?

5. If what you believe were not true, would you want to know it?

1. I don't think I do. I struggle with this because I don't believe in a higher power. I don't think there is a God.

2. Considering I don't believe there is a God, I don't believe Jesus was the son of God. I think he was someone who wanted to help people and he used that as a way to ensure people would have hope in him. I have much, much more to say concerning this, though.

3. I don't believe there is a heaven and hell.

4. If heaven and hell exist, I believe I would go to heaven. I believe that I have led a morally righteous life. I am dedicated to my wife and kids. I haven't done anything majorly evil to anyone.

5. I guess it would depend on what the truth really was. If what I believe isn't the truth, I guess I'll find that out when I get there, unless the end of life as I know it is in fact the end.

Try contemplating the following: "Everything is Something."

(apologies to those who watch that new Jason Alexander show, which isn't half bad)

The meaning of life is exactly what DeTox said: invincibility. To reach that goal, we spread our genetic material (like Genghis Khan or Wilt Chamberlain).

It is normal to fear death. Heaven does not exist, but I'm considering putting one in for the next FOF version.

Spleen, a similar discussion came up about a year ago. It isn't exactly the same topic, but some of the discussion might be relevant to your question. You might want to check it out:

http://dynamic2.gamespy.com/~fof/for...d.php?t=16496t

...This week in FOF bowl, the Heaven Angels take on the Los Angeles Diablos!!...:p

Those are fair and honest answers. With regards to #2, Jesus himself claimed to be the Son of God. Either he was a liar, a lunatic, or he was telling the truth. Just something to ponder... I'd like to share a few Bible verses with you, if you don't mind.

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Joh 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

Joh 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Rom 10:10 For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
Rom 10:11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

2Co 5:15 And that he died for all, that they which live should not henceforth live unto themselves, but unto him which died for them, and rose again.

Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.

I have struggled with this at times in my life also. I was born and raised Catholic and attended church, though not always willingly, until I was 15 or there abouts. At that point I decided that I no longer wanted to go to church and put my foot down that it just wasn't going to happen any longer.

Over the last 9 years I still feel very much that same way. I believe that God, Jesus, Jehovah, whatever you believe in are just made up beings that were 'created' to give people some sort of hope or comfort when they were in a time of despair or sorrow, to make living their lives easier to live and to make the thought of dying a little less worrysome since there was something to look forward to, Heaven.

Not religious myself, I often have your feelings spleen, like when my time has come all it will be is a big black space for the rest of eternity... forever.. and that is scary.. just commenting, as I am interested to here other's opinions as well.

Here is a good post from the webonnell in the thread cited

There is no meaning of life, you just live. Find a focus and live for it. Your wife and daughter for example.

I went through something like this after my son was born. He had jaundice and an infection at birth, but other than that has been totally healthy and was a "perfect" baby. For months after he was born, if I would see a special needs child with their parent, I would feel horrible guilty and start crying...I started asking questions like "What did I do to deserve this amazing gift and what did those parents do to be denied so many of the joys that come with being a parent?" It took a lot of soul searching to come to the conclusion that I would never figure it out and life was just what you got, nothing more, nothing less...what makes it amazing is what you do with what you have been given. I started realizing that those parents weren't going through their day feeling sorry for themselves and thinking "Why me?" They had accepted what they had been given and made the most of it, and appreciated what they had because there is always someone worse off than you.

Give your wife and your daughter a big hug before bed, make sure you tell them both every day how much you love them, and don't put off the things you dream of. Live your life and appreciate the small things, don't sweat the big stuff :)

Fear of death is something that we all have to face at some point. Many of the remedies involve some method of self-delusion, and probably only the most cynical can exist without one. My advice is find whatever works for you.

I think that TMT is a very interesting theory. In my own experience, as my agnostic parents are aging, I'm noticing a distinct embrace of conservatism on their part. I think it fits right into soothing their anxieties about death that they seek closer association with their chosen beliefs, to feel a part of something bigger.

As for Christianity, Jesus was a very nice guy. Had a worthy message. Helped people. Died for what he believed in. Nevertheless falls well short of the standard for making a convincing argument that there is life after death. As for the resurrection bit, well, seems reasonable that his disciples were feeling a bit guilty about abandoning him in his most dire hour, especially Peter. What better way to assuage that guilt than to claim that he still lives? A very creative solution to prolong their work and justify their commitment.

I too have pondered about death... I believe that after death you sleep for a little bit( lets say nine months) lose your memories and are reborn. If life is a cycle then the cycle has to repeat... For those who are truely special being they become a part of the universe and help create and destroy life thru out the universe. I dont think there is nothing more perfect then a circle nothing....( I know about a square and triangle but still)

I'll throw my two cents in here, although they may be worth even less. :)

I was never a very spiritual person until I went through a similar situation as you. I got married and had a daughter, and I noticed myself questioning the things that had seemed so simple before. In fact, almost everyone of the answers you posted to FN's questions would have been my own about ten years ago. For me now, however, things are significantly different.

Solecismic says unequivocally that Heaven does not exist. I say unequivocally that it does. I have an absolute faith in that, and it's not something I came to lightly. But the hardest part for me was admitting to myself that faith did not make me unintelligent. It did not make me unquestioning, and it did not mean that I was weaker than everyone else, that I needed religion as some sort of crutch. So many people believe that, and I couldn't disagree with them more. I found, in fact, that having faith was one of the most difficult things I had ever done, and I found in myself an intelligence I had never known before. Not only that, I feel like I found faith because I was strong, not because I was weak.

Now, all of that is simply my perspective, what happened to me. My experiences are probably unlike anyone elses' as are my beliefs, and yours probably are as well. The first thing I would suggest would be to educate yourself on a variety of different viewpoints on death and the spiritual. Read the Bible or any other religious text, and get to know what they all stand for. I promise you you'll be surprised. Often times, the "common" perception of a religion is miles away from its actual teachings.

But, again in my humble opinion, talking about it with people you respect is an outstanding move. Even if you eventually return to atheism or disbelief in any life after death, you'll be a better person for having investigated it and educated yourself. For me personally, once I began to learn about Christ, there was no way I could possibly go back to believing that God didn't exist.

I think that FN's quotes from the Bible are excellent ones. The point, I think, at least behind some of them, is that the Christian belief states that living a good life is not good enough. Nor is simply believing in God. Christians believe that for a person to go to heaven, they must combine good works with an allowance of Christ into their heart.

Again, these are only my own personal views. I don't mean to in any way degrade anyone elses'. In fact, I rarely discuss religious matters on boards because I think it's a very personal thing. I just wanted to offer you one more opinion that may be somewhat different from what some others have said.

So, there's at least a small chance that you're the reincarnation of Yul Brynner? Cool.

Christians have used Christianity as a load bearer for their own greed, prejudice, and power-hunger since it's inception. Hell, it won George Bush this election. The attempted genocide of the Jewish and Native American people is well beyond the amount of evidence I need to prevent myself from ever affiliating myself with Christianity. Yeah, Jesus didn't do it, but he didn't stop it either. If I have to believe in something that has zero evidence of existing, then I'll believe sugar-coated unicorns that I can ride all day long.

Wow I dont even know what provoked this slam... I am offended by what you said...

Just a factual commentary on what you said you believe.

From what I know, Brynner died somewhere around nine months before you were born. Not meant to be a slam. Some who believe in reincarnation talk a lot about who they believe they were in past lives.

Yeah, that Mother Theresa was a power-hungry self-centered bitch, wasn't she?

Mother Theresa=better person than I could ever dream of being. Doesn't sway me, though.

I knew someone would bring the 2004 election into this. Kerry lost. Probably had nothing to do with his wife. People need to get over it.

Not everything about Christianity is bad, but it has been responsible for an awful lot of violence over the last couple of millennia.

I didn't mention the election because my candidate lost, but because religion was used as a tool to garner votes.

I would say that all religions have been responsible for an awful lot of violence over the last millenia. That also shouldn't be the reason we turn our back on it - that's just an easy cop-out. Man is inherently sinful - just because a person does something in the name of religion doesn't make it right.

When you cross man with religious beliefs and values you unfortunately sometimes see that man isn't infallible while the religion remains true to itself.

Personally, setting aside my faith and beliefs about the after life, I'm not scared of dying (certain ways of dying yes, I'd personally prefer the less painful ways of going, but that's another issue).

The meaning of life to me is to make my little corner of the world better for me being a part of it. I work as a graphic artist, and my job realistically doesn't impact people's lives for better or worse on a very large scale, so I try to live each day being as enjoyable to be around as possible. Providing those around me with an extra smile or two a day (even if it's at my own expense), I think makes their lives a little better than if they have to worry about some ogre sitting in the corner that is a pain in the arse every day.

I know if I die today that I will be pretty satisfied with the way that I lived. I'd miss out on a lot (I'm 25, not married, kids, etc), but I'd be happy with what I think I've done for those that have known me while I was here.

The part about what happens after you die, well, that's the old mystery wrapped in an enigma and will probably be an interesting ride when I get there, but I just don't see much of a point in worrying about it too much now as no amount of thought or questioning is going to get me any closer to the answer that I'll find out eventually anyway.

This a decent point. I wanted to say this to counter myself, but didn't out of fear of being long-winded.

Someone find me the Onion article "All Seven Deadly Sins Committed At Church Bake Sale". It's a hoot.

Sure. People sin. Concepts and tenets do not sin. Power corrupts.

Christianity isn't responsible for any of it. Men who have sought to hide their own selfish ambitions behind a misrepresentation of it are.

Why is it I get my ass chewed out around here for saying Islam is a religion that commands its followers to smite those they cannot convert, but it's OK to bash the hell out of Christianity?

Being reincarnated as Yul Brenner would be a good thing Noop. He was cool.

It isn't OK, but whats the point of getting into an argument online.
Islam doesn't hurt people, some Islamic people do. Christianity doesn't hurt people, some Christian people do. Wisconsin never killed anyone, Jeffrey Dahmer did though. Don't generalize and people will take you more seriously, not just you, but everybody.

As for what happens when you die? Man, i picture a giant bed with the greatest sports games ever running on a loop on 200 inch TV and 10 Aimee Sweets there to fulfill every sick and twisted fantasy I have while Wolfgang Puck makes me MCDLT after MCDLT for all eternity. And every once in a while I can get out of bed and spend some time just sitting around bullshitting with everyone I ever loved. Thats how I picture heaven when I'm feeling good. When I get a pain in my side and start to freak out though I picture it as eternal darkness. I think the key is to learn how to not be scared of it, fear begets fear, and the truth is that no one knows for sure what it's like until it's time to go.

Since you like to quote verses, perhaps you could quote the passages in the Koran that support your above statement?

Regarding slamming Christianity, I suspect those that are pointing out the ugly things done in the name of Christianity probably don't have a lot of great things to say about Islam or Judiaism either - they tend to be non-believers in most things religious, not just Christianity.

There'd be a lot less suicide bombers if these guys believed that they would merely cease to exist when that bomb went off :(

When did he died?

Very good point Mac.

That said, those that are willing to commit suicide are often those whose current existence is one of despair - it becomes a lot easier to decide to end your life if you firmly believe that a better one awaits you in the afterlife, rather than work to improve your current existence.

OK.

frankly to me the meaning of life is to not worry about death. when you're living you can't be dying (figurativley speaking) so why even think about it?

amazingly that makes a lot of sense.

Is Hitler's dog in Hell?

hey, when you've had aprox 1400 posts, a few are bound to work.

It's a common myth that the suicide bombers are from poor families. In most cases, they are from families that the Palestinians would consider middle class. No despair. Just hatred and religious fervor, drummed into them (instead of reading, writing and arithmetic) from birth.

Excellent. The cover story is set - the world believes Wisconsin incapable of murder. All is proceeding according to plan.

Now we begin phase two of the plan. :eek:

Dola-


FWIW - that's a pretty good synopsis of Terror Management Theory. For those interested in learning more I recommend looking up some of Jeff Greenberg's work. He's a social psychologist at the University of Arizona who has been doing TMT work for decades.

Actually- if you're interested, the laundry list of some of the things she's done have been exposed - a good woman, but not neccessarily a saint.

This is something that always needs to be cleared up. Christianity has never ever been responsible for any violence in the history of mankind. It is, and always has been the mistake/ignorance/insanity of PEOPLE who use Christianity as an excuse to do horrible things. Now, you can attack the people and the churches and who do horrible things and are responsible for violence, but don't blame Christianity or any other religion, they are just ideas and beliefs that all promote the goodness of people.

Also, some advice. Unfortunatley, I've had a lot of experience with near death or death experiences by peers. And in those hard times I've learned a bunch about the "meaning" of life. It never has been simplier than being there for your family, friends and even strangers. Enjoying life to the fullest in a positive way and trying to be happy and trying to make people around you feel happy. One day, a friend or a family member is going to die and you're going to wish that you would have saw him/her more often and wish that you were nice and generous to him/her whenver you could be. Also, one day your going to die, it probably will be before your daughter if your lucky, and your going to want her to think that she saw you as much as she wanted to see you. Your going to want her to remember you as a great and generous person, a loving and caring father and great husband to her mother because you love her so much. Its all about trying to be the best you can be for those around you. Because never know how short life really is until you almost die or someone you love dies. This probably isn't THE meaning of life, but it is a big part of it.

It's incredibly tempting for me to jump in here. As in all religious discussions, some people say some things that are either stupid or severely slanted from painful personal experiences. I'm not gonna touch all that.

Two comments about previous posts, however: Just wanted to affirm cuckoo for your lengthy post above--good stuff, and wanted to affirm franklinnoble for actually stepping up to plate when challenged to quote the Koran. I'm no scholar of the book myself, but glad to see someone backing up their talk with a little leg work.

Now, to go back to the original post: spleen--I'm no shrink, but the way I read that first post, it seems a bit excessive. Maybe you're only emphasizing for effect, but if your anxiety is that severe, I would recommend seeking a counselor.

Regardless, I'll summarize what many FOFC'ers already know about me:
I did some reading and some research about this Jesus guy. I think all of us would like--if there is a God--for him to come down here and introduce himself and tell us how it is. Since others claimed that's exactly what happened 'round 30 A.D., I decided to look into it.

Sure enough, this Jesus claimed to be God on earth, was witnessed to perform many supernatural deeds, and claimed to tell us how it is with God, Heaven, the Kingdom of God and all that. As someone else said, either he was a loonie, a liar, or telling it straight. If you are truly concerned about what happens after death...if you really wonder what it would be like to meet God...then doesn't it make sense to look into which this Jesus guy was? Loonie, liar, or God?

In my research, I was convinced that these four things are verifiable fact (not everyone is swayed by the evidence, I admit. But it was enough for me to be convinced):
1. There really was a Jewish man named Jesus from Nazareth
2. He really did claim to be God.
3. He was killed.
4. He came back to life, as evidence of devine power over death.

From that, I eventually concluded Jesus was God. Another person might conclude that Jesus was raised from the dead by a witch doctor, or that Jesus was only one of many gods, one who put on the whole "incarnation" thing as a ruse to win our worship away from other gods, or that Jesus was an alien. Heck, I don't know. But after honestly looking at it all, I was convinced that Jesus was exactly who he said he was: God coming down to introduce himself and tell us how it is, both in this life and the next. As for what happens after I die, I have found great reassurance, peace, and hope--for this God/Man gave us some good news on the topic. Since I believe he was God, I figure he knows what he's talkin' about.

Yes, I thought I clarified that with a later post (referring to the post where I was quoted).

To me, it is worth the risk of believing in Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. If there is a heaven, and I believe there is, then I will be in pretty good shape . If there is not, then what do I have to lose?

I have completely different views on organized religion, however. Every church I have ever been a member of has been corrupt (preacher having an affair on his wife, people stealing money from the church, etc.) That has helped shape that.

Jesus is the Way!
 

We are all sinners and fall short of the Glory of God. I too have had struggles with some churches, yet there are good Christians in the world and they too are sinners. Don't blame religion on The Lord!

How am I blaming religion on The Lord?

i'll resort back to my second post in this.

whats the purpose in talking about death? it happens. like i said. my personal belief in the meaning of life is that your meant to live.

so if you're meant to live, why do you want to talk about death?

Here's what Franklinnoble said:


Here's his evidence - does it back up his statement?


A little context would be nice, but given this is all we are presented with, we'll make do. Seems to me what this is saying is if you are attacked, fight back. Don't fight in the Mosque unless you are attacked first. "Drive them out from whence they drove you out" - reclaim your lands that were taken from you. The only thing that jibes with Franklin's statement is "...slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers." In the full context of the sentence though, it suggests this is only done when you are attacked first; it doesn't suggest that unbelievers be slaughtered simply for not believing.


Not sure how this is supposed to jibe with Franklin's statement - it would help to see the full context. From what we see quoted, it suggests that Islam, like Christianity, preaches a forgiving God.


Seems to be saying actively resist persecution, and suggests that worshipping Allah is the only true path, but then again Christianity says the same thing. The rest suggests peaceful co-existence unless oppressed.

From my perspective, a balanced reading of the above passages suggests that Islam promotes forgiveness and peace, but also encourages believers to actively fight back when attacked and persecuted. Not quite the same thing as what Franklinnoble was originally suggesting...

I was also impressed that he managed to quote some passages of the Koran, but if you read what he posted, it doesn't quite back up his talk, which was less impressive.

A couple of things about quotes from the Koran and the Bible. First off, I would like to say that there are many different interpretations of those texts and certainly its not all the Muslim world that accepts the most extreme interpretations of the Koran. Its the same kind of extreme interpretation some Christians take of some Bible quotes. Thats one of the main problems in history and now, an interpretation that is so extreme that it causes violence.

This has all be very interesting for me. I purposely didn't join in the discussion last night because I wanted to take all of your comments in and see how they made me feel today.

I did go to bed last night and not think about this stuff. I attribute that to making this poat and reading everyone's thoughts.

I would like to reinterate that I am not consumed by this. It was just something that occupied my mind most nights when trying to go to sleep.

Growing up, my dad wasn't there for any of his kids. To this day, he is a very selfish, bigoted person. The feeling of disappointment I had in my father when I was a kid drives me very hard today. The memory of those feelings won't allow me to be a poor husband or father. I truly live life for my wife and kids, no question. So, I guess you could say I have dedicated to living my life for my family. When I die, I don't care what people think of me as long as they can't say I was a poor husband and father.

This discussion went further religiously than I intended but I guess I should have expected it to. I would like to ask couple a questions. This is assuming I lead a good life and I am deserving to make it into heaven...

Will I go to heaven even though I struggle to believe in it?
Will I go to heaven even though I struggle to believe in God?
Is it wrong to want to believe in these things because you want the benefits they may provide?

I appreciate the discussion. You guys have offered a lot of good points and advice.

Spleen, I'm going to try to avoid some of the tangent discussions this thread & just offer a thought or two about your original post.

I found it interesting (and perhaps you will as well) that while we seem to have very different beliefs about matters relating to God/Heaven/et al, we have roughly the same experience with regard to fears about our future, or perhaps more accurately, the earthly lack thereof.

I have a feeling that was worded pretty obscurely, lemme try again -- I related very well to the feelings & fear you talked about in the opening paragraphs. We may not share much in the way of beliefs about "after", but we've definitely got some things in common in the "now".

I can't comprehend any parent not being scared some how by those things.

JAMES 1:26-27 read it and see what religion is!
 

I didn't mean to infer that you were saying that, "blaming religion on the Lord". I apologize if that is how you perceived my statement. I am just tired of hearing people chose not to believe in God because this church did this or that Christian did that. Know what I mean.

Man has changed and in some ways corrupted God's definition of religion. read James 1:26-27.

More soon....

I don't in any way claim to be a religious scholar, but I'll offer what I would think to be an answer to these.

Struggle is a natural part of humanity as is quest for logic and understanding. Struggling to believe in God and Heaven would not preclude you from entering the kingdom of God, I would think. But not allowing him to enter your heart would. It is so easy for us as humans to put up a shell against the spiritual, explain it away with supposed logic, or pretend that we don't need it. We are prideful beings, and one of the most difficult things to do is open yourself to God.

Speaking purely from the Christian perpective, if you open yourself to God and educate yourself about Him, he will make himself known to you in prayer, in love, and in everything you see around you.

I consider myself to be an extrememly faithful person, but I struggle with my beliefs on a regular basis. Several months ago, my daughter had an illness (which is by no means serious but seemed so at the time to me), and I did the one thing I wish I wouldn't have done. I doubted Him. In fact, I would go so far as to say I blamed Him. I have had many periods of spiritual struggle in my life, but I do not think that will bar me from the gates of heaven assuming that when I die, I have lived a good and righteous life, and I have accepted Jesus into my life, despite doubts.

Now, again from a personal perspective, I think the notion of believing only for the benefits is a bit of a cop-out and it ignores the incredible commitment and duty of a person of faith. That said, and this may sound strange, it's a start. I look at it this way: for whatever reason you choose to learn about God and investigate Him, at least you're doing so, and from my experience, you're more likely to accept him once you have all the facts. In the end, it's not likely that you'd remain only believing for the benefits.

DISCLAIMER: I choose to put this in every religious post because I realize that not everyone believes as I do. I don't mean to state anything as unquestionable "fact," only that it is unquestionable "fact" to me.

Actually if you read the bible there are many instances where people are referred to as 'Sons of God' - this isn't something which was exclusively placed upon Jesus, however for whatever reason (mainly the resurrection) its only with Jesus that this is taken literally.

In the other cases its taken as implying 'created by God' ..

For example one of several grabbed from a quick search online:
The KJV Strong's Version
Genesis 6
6:1
And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,
6:2
That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.


Indeed - but it can also be argued that God is omnipotent and made us to be sinners (if he hadn't wanted us to then he could have created us with 'free-will' but with personalities which didn't want to sin - this has to be possible for God to be all good and have free-will himself after all) .... as he designed us inherantly flawed (ie. sinners) shouldn't he share the blame ?

All believers are "sons of God." However, Jesus Christ is in fact the only "literal" Son of God, and, simultaneously, is God in the flesh.

Mar 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God;

Rom 1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
Rom 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

1Ti 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.




This is an interesting theological debate. I struggled with this a while back, when someone posed the question, "Did God create evil?"

I eventually had to conclude that, yes, He did.

Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Act 17:24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwelleth not in temples made with hands;

1Co 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

2Co 5:18 And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

Eph 3:9 And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:

Col 1:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Col 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
Col 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
Col 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.


But, I believe he has a purpose in this.


Rom 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

Rom 11:36 For of him, and through him, and to him, are all things: to whom be glory for ever. Amen.

Eph 1:11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

Rev 4:11 Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created.

More theology here than spleen wanted, but I'll bite. First off, Jesus' claims to divinity go WAY beyond the phrase "Son of God". If you want, I can give a whole Sunday School lesson on the topic, but for now I'll just point out that arguing against the phrase "Son of God" in a literal meaning doesn't even scratch the notion that JC was uniquely divine.

On the second point "As he designed us inherently flawed, shouldn't he share the blame?"--the premise here is faulty. God created us in his image, in other words, with the choice between good and evil. If you look closely at the creation story, you can also see that creation was "good" and that the first humans did have a natural tendency to seek good and God. (Some could argue we still carry that tendency--an innate longing to return to God). When tempted, however, when lied to and deceived, humans gave into sin. That choice corrupted us, such that modern humanity is as a spoiled apple, rotten to the core. Your logic, in effect, is like picking up a rotten apple and saying - "Hey, if Johnny Appleseed knew the apples were going to rot, he should have found some other fruit to plant. He should be reprimanded for planting such a disgusting plant."

Comprehending your own non-existance is not a walk in the park.

Casting any religious discussion aside, by making a difference in the world around you, no matter how large or small you will live forever.

(Former baptist-mind-numbed-robot here that walked away from church in his early 20s after spending most of his formative years going to church 3-4 times a week.)

No offense, but there is no god as definded in the bible.

However, if there is then the Earth we live on is the Bible's Hell. I say that because the definition of Hell is the "absence of God" and I think most of us could say that this world is God-absent.

And for those that say there are many many instances of God's work in the world now, you are full of it. Why the Hell would the omni*insert word* creator of all things go into invisible mode? Judas was the only sane one of the disciples. He realized the limitations of our nature that we have. He needed to see, touch, and see Jesus after he died.

God supposedly creates us with these organic miracles (brains) and then sets off to make his system of getting "in" with his heaven-crowd based on rules that our brains weren't meant to deal with and then equates us to sheep in his "Werd."

Life teaches you that having faith in anything but yourself is a road to pain and disaster. Sure there are good bumps along the road, but for the most part this world is really just a chain reaction of shitty events.

I've learned to make my own happiness in this existence. I do things that I enjoy. I love the shit out of my daughter. I make sure I am home every night and that she has a dad that lives in the same house and puts together christmas gifts that come in 10,000 pieces. I work to make sure we can afford to live comfortably. I read a lot. Most of all, I never place too much value on the words of others. I am like Judas. I need to see the wounds on his hands. I need to see somebody follow through on their word before I trust them. Faith schmaith.

My feelings are that if the god of the bible is "real" that he will know my soul and understand my reasoning. If he doesn't, that tells me that he isn't somebody I need to spend eternity with anyway.

Judas was the one who sold Jesus out for 30 pieces of silver, then went and hung himself.

Thomas was the one who asked to see the holes in Jesus' hands.

I'd gather that it's probably been a while since you read the Bible. Maybe now that you're a little older and wiser, you might want to give it another fair shot? Try John and Romans...

Getting rid of the sting of death is a great selling point. But it is also where I think Jesus and Paul depart. Its hard for me to imagine Jesus saying, "Hey watch me do this crazy thing. I'll die, come back, then you all can spend eternity with me, all you have to do is believe what about I'm about to do."

If the Kingdom of God is here, and if we are filled with the Holy Spirit, then I can understand why Jesus did not talk about Heaven like Paul did. Plus, it's hard for me to say that the Spirit is not everywhere, that the presence of God is absent in some places. Because if the Spirit everywhere and God is present in everything, then what is Heaven? 110% Spirit presence?

My point is that once Christianity gets reduced to believing just to get rid of the sting of death, then as Gump said, it just becomes, "One less thing to worry about."

It is my no coincidence that parents are the ones most passionate about this topic. There is an analogy between these two types of parental relationships (God/man parent/child). The love we have for our children is profound. Moreover, the feeling we get is greater than no other. Perhaps that was the type of love and feeling Jesus talking about when He said Love God and another. If we all love each other a parent loves there child, then truly the Kingdom of God would be at hand.

But if you summarise Jesus's acts from the bible then you'll find that nearly everything he did had also been done by various people elsewhere in the bible, eg. raising the dead etc. (Paul for instance did most of this and indeed cured people by their falling in his shadow whereas people required the touch of Jesus according to the bible to cure them (or at least the touch of his hem)).

The only acts which seperates Jesus are:

* His founding of the church (which could be argued to have existed before him, however as the chap who fulfilled various prophecies he moved it from Old to New testament).
* His coming back to life after death unaided.

Of the two the first is obviously important and is backed by historic fact, however it doesn't imho indicate he is the son of God.

The second however is hearsay and I have yet to find any backing up of this via. historical document (I'm rather loathe to take the cyclic argument and use the bible to back itself up as many Christians do) - if you know of any I'd be interested in your references.

But surely if you look at things logically if God is omnipotent then he KNEW that would happen - hence he designed us to fail, if he didn't 'know' that we'd have a tendency to stray then he isn't omnipotent and hence God isn't God ...

(similar arguement can be put regarding the Devil being a fallen angel)

Mar 1:1 - As I mentioned previously many people are referred to as 'sons of God' in the bible, this isn't exclusively something which Jesus recieves.

Rom 1:3 - This surely indicates that he 'isn't the son of god being made of the 'seed of David'? (although in fairness the NIV indicates the text as 'descendant of David' which still leaves his Godly parentage open for debate).

Rom 1:4 See Mar 1:1 - many people are Sons of God, hence this isn't an indication of his Goldlyness

Joh 3:16, 3:16 - These are more in favour of Jesus being spawn of God, however I would counter with the fact that there is no indication that Jesus is considered a 'God' himself merely that he was conceived by God (ie. God is his father, Jesus is his child). This in itself doesn't indicate that Jesus is 'God' or vice versa, most religions have instances where their God(s) conceive human babis, the majority of these religions don't pass on 'God' status to these children. Hence if you follow this arguement then indeed Jesus could be his son without being 'God.

I'd also point out the cyclical nature of the arguements here-in, there is historic proof of Jesus's existance and the effect he had on society at that time, however there is no proof of his being 'raised' from the dead in historic documents that I can find - there is also no historic proof outside of the bible of his being the 'Son of God'.

If you look through religious texts then it will be fairly easy to find similar documents for other religions which mention kings/prophets who were considered to be 'Sons of God' - few of these are taken seriously today, however Jesus is because the religion is still 'allive' currently.

This is also my conclusion - however this opens up huge avenues regarding what is considered 'Good' and 'Evil' for an act of God ...

For instance by creating evil God caused millions of people to be condemned to Hell ... is this not in itself an act which at best could be considered 'non-good' opening doors to arguements that God isn't 'Good' .... this in turn indicates that the Bible isn't 100% accurate and throws more water onto Christianities fire.

Options remaining open from this imho:

* God lives by different rules to humans, hence good and evil for him are different to us (doesn't sound right to me).
* God isn't wholly good and is more 'neutral', instead having greater plans which we don't understand. Humans may or may not be incidental to these plans (I've often wondered if we aren't a 'training ground' for the Devil to learn the futility of rebellion against God, much of the bible seems to indicate this if you read through it - especially the fact that the Devil isn't actually destroyed at all, even when finally beaten).
* Some humans are created without Souls and as such don't get condemned to hell, meaning that their lack of salvation or indeed their sinning isn't evil (think of it along the lines of animals - they're responding to their base nature).

I apologise in advance in case anyone thinnks I'm being antagonistic with these comments, I am sincerely interested to hear peoples thoughts regarding this.

Ahhh but Johnny Appleseed is human - God is omnipotent.

Thus God creating something which 'fails' indicates that he meant it to fail ...

(thus bringing up the whole 'free-will' debate - which I'll touch on briefly)

Free Will problems:
God knows everything that is and that will be. ie. he is omnipotent.

Thus at the moment he creates a person he knows exactly his choices and what he will do - otherwise God isn't omnipotent.

Hence freewill is an illusion as we can only really do what God designed and intended us to do. We believe we are making choices, but in reality we are like computer programs preprogrammed to do as God intended.

NB. this doesn't actually have a negative effect on whether Christianity is 'right' or 'wrong' but is something which I've found interesting to mull over ... current stance is, doesn't matter whether its like this or not, I'll just get on with life ;)

I think this is a very common stance for people with an 'interesting' upbringing - I have similar beliefs myself.

I look at things from the point of view that God created each of us in the manner which he wanted, thus your personality is exactly what he wanted it to be - so your struggling to believe in God isn't a problem, for whatever reason its one of the challenges God has given you.

(as you can probably tell from my previous posts - I also have this problem ;) )

No, not at all - I think whether they admit it or not most Christians want these things and at least at first they may have been a partial factor in their becoming Christian (in my experience most people become Christians either because they have Christian parents or alternatively during the period of trial during their life where they feel the need for external support).

I personally consider myself a Christian cynic (that is a Christian who has a LOT of questions regarding things) .... at the moment to be blunt I tend to use God in the same way I use smoking, I'll talk to him when I'm stressed out as a way to calm down and put things into perspective (and no he's never answered me yet ;) .... but I find it helps anyway).

Well, if you just simply think on the organic level, when we die our atoms don't cease to exist. They go back into the pool so to speak and eventually hook up with other atoms to form new stuff so we all may well literally contain parts from several famous dead people.

I've often wondered if it is possible that somehow these atoms might not contain some form of memory, not a lot obviously but some form of it and it triggers rarely but when it does send a signal to the brain it causes a sorta deja vu thing and the person believes that they were Napolean or something.

It is possible that this may occur. Here's what man is working on now.

hxxp://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/2290707.stm

Now, this isn't the same thing as what I described but what if, the atom is the data storage method used by nature to store human memory ( and it is we know for DNA ) then if enough atoms from, say, Yul Brenner were somehow part of Noop now ( I think 9 months would be waay too soon btw but most people if you notice are ancient famous reincarnations not the recently dead )and at some random point these atoms fired off a Brenner flashback, then who knows?

I'm not saying this is something I believe per se but it's not a concept I can outright reject.

Marc said that God hasn't answered him yet - however sometimes when he's stressed he prays (talks) to God. News to you Marc, what do you think calmed you down? It was God, he answered your prayer.

Just to take a jab at all this talk about books like the Bible being false or real or being interpretated wrong. The Bible can't be completely false, there HAS to be some truth in it. Why would God allow a completely false book written in his name be studied and taught and followed by so many people throughout history? The same goes for the Koran and Torah (sp?).

In one way or another, we all feel the presence of God, whether it is when a close family member is lost, or we are in trouble or when we are joyful. It happens a lot with people who have near death experiences. Our souls feel the need to have a closeness with God - this the mechinism for faith.

Ahhh yes I could believe that, however I could also take a more scientific approach to things and realise that what I'm really doing is transferring stress to an artificial and impartial third-party... kind of like calming down by ranting at my wife about things, but without the hindrance of potentially worrying another person.

Or would you consider my handling of stress by smoking as also coming from God? ... as that also calms me down ;)

One of the main problems I have with accepting God as involved in this is purely this logic:
(1) If God exists he made me to be the man that I am and did this for a reason
(2) I'm naturally logical by nature and therefore question the existance of God, thus is I can assess a situation as logical without the involvement of God then by "Occam's Razor" the simplest solution (ie. the one not involving God) is probably the real one.
If God didn't want me to take this approach to reasoning then he shouldn't have made me the way I am - ergo, either God made me this way and wants me to use my brain or God doesn't exist and thus I can do what I like with my brain ;)

Hmmm, that arguement doesn't hold a lot of water I'm afraid otherwise the Aztec's wouldn't have had their religion and devil worshippers wouldn't exist surely?

I think the best example of Jesus' view on his own status would be how he told us to pray to god.

"Our father..."

While we can say that he is generalizing I'd like to think he was making a point. There is no difference between us in the eyes of our father.


Lets walk this one the other direction. Jesus came here to fulfill the prophesies. That much is clear from what he said. The prophesies did NOT speak of a child born of God, rather that the messiah would be the descendant of David.

Joseph was the descendant of David. Matthew, the tax collector and thus the disciple most likely to be the record keeper type starts his gospel out spelling out this fulfillment. Remember the begats? That's why he put those in.

There was a problem though. Christianity was a small religion at that time and it's biggest market was the pagan market and they had some really cool Gods going and also some really good festivals.

Christmas as we know was a later addition trying to coopt from these religions. Well, a lot of religions had Gods with virgin births. Jesus was by no means the first one.

So, how do you sell people that your God is the biggest and the best? Well, he had a virgin birth too. They conveniently forgot about the prophesy here but lets face it, the jews weren't their target really so why worry about convincing them? Later, justifications could be made and indeed there are some who say now that Mary was also a descendant of David thus both are true.

Well, thing is, that's not how descendants were determined at that time; it was strictly through the father that this was established. Also, note that the gospel writers didn't mention this and surely if this was their rational they would have.

It's easy to believe that Mary may indeed have had a vision and been told that she would bear Gods chosen, and I'd say that Jesus was at least one of Gods chosen, but this doesn't mean that God had to slip her the hard one.

In fact, the thought of God having to do anything physical such as take a human body for an hour or so just to recreate an unnecessary human bodily function makes no sense to me but again, Zeus did this a whole lot so I think we can see an example of the concept and why it would be so palatable to the people.


Same thing really but I went so far as specifically mention the virgin birth angle. :)


Phew, here is the biggie. :)

Good and evil is at the heart of the bible and our faith based system.

I was thinking about this when I read Franklin's quotes. I was thinking how a faith based religion really sucks because to prove your point you have to show "rules and God says" from a book that the other person doesn't have faith in.

There is nothing in the bible that can "convince" you of anything unless you already want to believe and that makes it a hard sell.

But, I realized, that is what was intended.

What was mankind's first sin?

Partaking of the fruit of "the knowledge of good and evil."

Our first mistake was because we wanted to KNOW things, not have faith. The minute we tried to know something, bam, we're out of the garden. It makes sense that his book wouldn't offer any answers just say believe or else.

Frustrating but then again, is that my sin talking. ;)


Why not? We've never had one good definition of what is good and evil according to God. We don't know and have no way of knowing. We know of things that he wants us to do and not do but nowhere is it explained if it's good or evil that we're asked to do, only if it pleases or displeases God and we're expected to have faith that this is the thing to do.

Basically, we live by rules that God gives us but he doesn't define good and evil, doesn't want us to learn the definition.

Given this, we can't have a clear understanding about what is good or evil so any opinion on the subject we may make is suspect at best.


Well, as the Job story states, they're rather chummy and even use us to bet for their amusement. I've had days where this makes far more sense than anything else I've read in the bible. :D


I've often wondered if this rising above our animal nature is what we should be doing no matter what. I often say that I hate people but what I really hate is how we revert to our animal nature ( and animals my friends aren't cute and cuddly. they're mean and cruel and do what they must to survive and one up each other ) and because of our knowledge, rise above it.

Since it is based on our so called knowledge though it isn't exactly biblical but what bothers me is people talking about how good and noble we are as a species and then go out and revert to our animal instincts by hurting others to get ahead or for amusement therefore throwing away what is supposed to separate us from the animals in the first place.


I will also apologize if anyone is offended by my words and I also apologize when they're invariably misunderstood. I tried my best but I'm not in the optimal situation to be writing this morning and admittedly topics like this really require more than a human can muster to explain well.

I did the best that this christ following non christian can do this morning. :)

Seed of David. The only way he could be made of the seed of David would be through the seed of David's descendant which is Joseph. I put this in my long post but I thank you for providing me with this reference.

This is even better as it's indicative of what the followers of Jesus were thinking and they WEREN'T thinking virgin birth yet. That came later.

This is me too, only I turned away at around 18.


This has always bothered me, too. I will try to put into words the conclusion I believe God led me to.

The popular image of God as stern, distant ruler is in many ways wrong. God made the entire universe with one thing in mind: that we would share it with him as friends and companions. This is why God does not write "I am the Lord your God" in mile-high letters of fire across the sky. He wants us to seek him out because we want to find him, not out of fear of the consequences or in hopes of gain. Analogy: do you think Bill Gates wonders if he has any true friends? Imagine the insincerity and butt-kissing if God gave positive proof of his existence. If you seek him, he will find you . But if you need tangible proof, it ain't happening.

A good book with a different (but still biblical) perspective on the nature of God is Wild at Heart by John Eldredge. (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/AS...671609-0958407)

Also, a couple times I saw people say the key to salvation is living a good life and believing in God. With apologies if I offend, this is incorrect. The sole key to salvation is to trust that Jesus came to earth as God in the flesh, lived a perfect life, died and in that death paid for our sins, and rose from the dead. Jesus alone is the key. Nothing you do or don't do can or will get you in, and if you have faith in Jesus, nothing you do or don't do can or will keep you out.

And a quick word on faith: faith is often mis-characterized as unshakable belief. Actually, faith is just this: I know Jesus has taken care of it. Sometimes you may (I know I do) find some or all of it hard to accept as fact. I'm sure even the Pope doubts. But the key is: I know Jesus has taken care of it. Simple as that.

Ahhh but if God is omnipotent then he has effectively made some of us butt-kissers and others antagonistic .... somewhat akin to a computer programmer writing two elisa programs, one to praise him constantly and the other to criticise him.

Hence your agruement is flawed as we are pre-programmed to behave as he wanted, if this isn't true and God has truly given us 'free-will' then he doesn't know what we're going to do ... which removes his omnipotency and indicates he isn't truly God.

If I'm following right, you are mixing being in control with controlling. God is in control of everything. He chooses not to actively control everything, however. All people are free to make whatever choices they wish. God made us all different, and some of us have more difficult natural tendencies to overcome, but in the end the choice is ours and so is the responsibility.

And in the end, as I was saying before, I'm not going to be able to prove this to you, logically, tangibly, or otherwise, by design . I know that sounds like a cop-out, but that's the way it is. Either you choose to believe or you don't. After 16 years of atheism (my whole adult life), I found that the evidence of God in my life became too overwhelming to ignore.


And I hate to abandon a civil quasi-religious discussion (possibly the first such thread in internet history) in the middle, but I probably won't have a chance to come back to this until Saturday night.

But if he's omnipotent then these aren't choices which people are making - they are the illusion of choices and they pan out how God intended as he knew what would happen from the moment we were conceived.

(as I've mentioned before this doesn't affect the tenability of Christianity - but its an interesting nuance imho).

I see evidence that God exists in my life also, however I have a questioning mind which (presuming I'm right and he exists) God gave me for a reason ... so I tend to keep bashing away at these, probably unsolvable questions.

The main problem for me is blind belief - I see no conclusive evidence that Christianity as presented by the majority of churches is reliable per-se, I choose to be a christian because I believe in the basic values and want to encourage them in society, I'm also open to the idea and possibility of encountering God ... however so far this simply hasn't happened and I've been very unimpressed by the 'encounters with God' which I've seen so far (mainly Holy spirit, speaking in tongues ... I'd be happy to discuss these via. PM/email if you're interested in my take on them).

There have been quite a few such intelligent debates on the FOFC boards in the past, this sort of level of discussion is one of the main reasons why I frequent the forums ... its nice to have such discussions in an intelligent and civil manner.

God did create in his own image with the soul or spirit. It is through the flesh that Man failed.

Through the spirit, your essense becomes one with God.

That sounds very nice - but what exactly do you mean?

Simply put my arguement is thus:

Either
1 - God made man and intended for him to sin and for many humans to suffer in Hell.
2 - God made man and intended for him not to sin and got things wrong.

Both of these are a possibility because many men do not become Christians and thus according to Christian tenets go to 'Hell' (literally ;) ). Yes man was created by God who is omnipotent and thus knew exactly what would happen to all of mankind at the point when he created the first man.

If 1. is true then God intended that many people would suffer external damnation and made them for this purpose.

If 2. is true then God failed in making man because he turned out contrary to his wishes, thus God isn't omnipotent.

A 3. is theoretically possible which gives God a 'kop' out where not all humans have souls, hence no 'souled' human is condemned to Hell .... however this contradicts the gist of several biblical passages.

Well it's a slippery slope. This is much like the question "Can God create a rock he cannot lift?"

Then again we slap the words "all-knowing", "omnipotent" and the like but really as people ourselves really have no concept of what that means.

My answer would be that God is not restricted by what we call time. The concept of time of course is a manmade invention. He already knows the answer before the question was conceived. Therefore your scenarios in #1 and 2 (or 3 through infinity) don't apply.

It sounds like a weak answer but trying to put God in yours and my reality saying "well what was he thinking when he made us" doesn't make any sense.

Marc,
I don't think you and I will agree on this, but I've noticed two distinct logical fallicies in your discourse thus far.

1. Omniscience and omnipotence do not necessarily mean the preordination of all human decisions. They merely imply foreknowledge. I know this seems illogical to you, but there are two distinct ways in which this could work:
Either A.) God knows the choices you will make, knows they will counter what he truly desires, but allows it anyway. In other words, he purposefully suspends his omnipotence by not preventing you from choosing counter to his desires. (Others believe God pursposefully suspends his omniscience--called "Openness Theology"--but this is IMO less tenable). Simplified, just because he wants it doesn't mean he makes it happen. This option is a nice theory, but not my favorite, for it is more theoretical than supported by Scripture.
Or B.) Scripture does clarify that even the concept of "foreknowledge" is flawed, for God is not contained in time as we understand it. There is no before or after to him, only what is him and what is not. It is "in" his nature to create, it is "in" his nature to love, to give choice, to redeem--and apparently his desire to love a free-will being and be loved by that being is greater than the pain he feels when many free-will beings choose otherwise. In other words, he chose that creating both love and hell were better than no love at all.

The way I, as someone willing to trust without having to know all the answers, choose to look at it (is this option C? I dunno) is: God had the choice eons ago of making creation with beings that had choice. Knowing some would choose faith and love, while others would choose pain and death, he had to ask himself, "Is it worth it?" Fully knowing many would suffer damnation, is it worth it to introduce love to the universe? For reasons I only trust are good and true, he decided it was worth it. So he made Creation, and made choice. For without choice, there is no love. Because he is eternal--there is no yesterday or tomorrow with him--he knows what you have chosen, are choosing, will choose. That doesn't mean he made the choice, but only that he has already lived in your future and knows what you are going to do.

I simply see no reason omniscience and omnipotence have to equal the absence of free will.

Fallacy #2:
You mentioned "no historical documents outside the Bible" supporting Jesus' resurrection. This reflects a misunderstanding of the nature of the Bible, and of historical documents. One wouldn't expect to find historical documents about Caesar among native American writing--why not? Native Americans never saw nor knew Ceasar. Likewise, one would only expect historical documents about Jesus' resurrection from those who actually witnessed it. Now, the vast majority of those that actually witnessed it (some 8000+ people), became followers of Jesus (understandably, I would think). So the historical documents we have regarding his resurrection are written by his believers.

This in itself is no discredit, however, as history or news reporting as an objective science was a new to non-existent science back then. There was no news channel 7 Jerusalem to report these things, but only eye witnesses. The majority of historical documents from that time period are written, not by objective historians, but by advocates of the events. "Historians" were a rare thing, although an early one Josephus is well-known, and the physician Luke shows signs of early journalistic integrity. The truth is, we do have historical documents that tell of Jesus' resurrection--dozens of scrolls and such, most of which are copies of books which we today call Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. Though Acts and some of Paul's letters also provide corroboration. These historical documents are not to be discounted because they were compiled in the year 430 or so into the foundation of a religious denomination. They are every bit as "historical documents" as others of the time period. ("They are biased," you say. "They conflict," you say. "There's some question of their reliability," you say. True. But those same things can be said of every so-called historian of the day, and every historic document. Tell me Josephus wasn't slanted in his "news coverage" of the destruction of Jerusalem!)

I see what you're saying shorty, but my question is, do you really think it will be a big black space forever, or will it be nothing, because there is a distincy difference between the two. On the one hand, blackness wouldn't be horrible... you'd at least have your memories. But nothing is something I'm not entirely sure we can fathom. When we think of nothing, we often think of blackness, but I don't that is a true grasp of nothingness. Imagine what its like in the nights when you sleep, but don't remember your dreams. You go to sleep, and you wake up, but you don't remember anything that happened in the 8 hours you were out. Now, try to imagine you didn't wake up, never had a dream, never had a thought, nothing, there's nothing you could possibly imagine that would equate to nothing-ness. I don't really think our minds can grasp the idea of what it would be like for there to be nothing. Nor do I think it would matter if we could. If that is what happens, and I am not advocating anything for or against it, it would really have no impact. We couldn't feel sad about it, worry, be happy, have regret that it wasn't another way. Its just done, as if we never existed.

I think this is one of the greatest strengths of most religions. It gives everything a purpose. Thats all we strive for, a sense of meaning as to why we are here. That isn't to say we don't have an actual purpose, but religion is a kind of soothing idea that gives us a reason not to worry.

That was very well put actually.

As you probably predicted there isn't a 'cure all' answer for my question, but I appreciate the time and trouble you took to answer and its definitely something I'll mull over ...

I don't believe that these remove 'free will' from people, rather that the free-will is somewhat illusionary as God exists outside of time and as such knows exactly the outcome from the point he conceive of us being created.

As such we might have free will, however God knows the choices we will make in advance (thus whether free will exists or not is down to individual perception of the situation, are we preprogrammed because God knows what we'll do or is it just down to God being omnipotent).

(which doesn't actually hinder any believe in Christianity, its just a somewhat warped view of things ;) )

This is at least partially true and indeed the amount of historical references to the majority of the bible is very impressive (much of the bibles contents can be backed up from historical documentation) - however I'm surprised that I've seen no external historic references to the resurrection when there are many other historic references to Jesus during the creation of the Christian church.

As you say, lack of historical documentation doesn't disprove it happening ...

(amongst other things I'm also intruiged by are the 'blank' period in Jesus's life in the bible which isn't documented - you seem fairly knowledgable in these things, any idea? ...)

He is Risen, Indeed!
 

I agree with your comments on fallacy number one. Number two for the most part. However I am currently reading a book called "The Case For Christ". It is written by Lee Strobel an investigative journalist with a legal background. There are actually many instances where historical documents outside the Bible do support Jesus and the Resurrection. The book is a fascinating read. I am only half way through it but I believe that even non-believers would have trouble refuting the FACTS stated in this book. I will be positng some of the more interesting excerpts from this book over the weekend along with some of my testimony to hopefully help those who do wonder about Life after Death and to also help you fill that gaping whole inside that is your spirit withering...

It is really ok that you do not believe in Him, at this time, for He will never stop believing and having faith in you....

G-Man if you can post some extracts from that regarding the Resurrection I'd be very interested, I've heard good things about the book but haven't read it yet (I've read a few similar ones - but nothing which had supporting historical documentary evidence on the Resurrection itself).

Should make an interesting read ...

I will post some over the weekend.

I've also heard great things about The Case for Christ, but I've never actually read it. (I've worked with Lee Stroebel, though!)

Marc - as for the "blank periods" in his life, I'm afraid we're out on a limb there. In a time period without newspapers or public school records or immunization records or...how would anyone know about a poor carpenter's son from rural Palestine? Why would anyone write about him? Even if he was the guru of all godly wisdom as a 5-year old, who would know about it, except local yocals? In fact, at one point in the Bible (John 1:46) someone reflected the popular disdain for Jesus' home region by saying, "Nazareth? What good ever came out of Nazareth?"

Those that did write about Jesus (Matt, Mark, Luke, John, and others) didn't even meet him until he was about 30 or so, so we just don't know. Jesus shows up as a baby in Jerusalem, again when he's about 12, then a while later at a wedding in Capernaum. What was he doing in the in-between time? Curious, though, eh?

I believe there are some extra-biblical accounts (the Gospel of Clemente, I believe?) that have some additional stories, but these accounts have widely been dismissed as fabrications. I did read an interesting fiction work on the subject (mere speculation, you understand, but an intriguing read anyways) called Damien. It's the fictional account of Jesus' "Guardian Angel" as a child. Forget the author. But sorry I can't be of more help.

If you're having questions about your existence, I'd recommend you go see I Heart Huckabees. I can't say it has the answers, but it's still a good movie about the subject.

Way too much to read through here, so I will say only one thing. Find something, put your heart and soul into it. Believe it with everything you got. IF on your death bed you find yourself content with what you done, then the afterlife will take care of itself. You can only do now what you believe is best. But you have to BELIEVE in your heart totally and completely.

For me it is God, but I am not saying that is for you. I hope you at least "give faith a chance." But to me I am content and not worried about death too mcuh because when I die I believe I will go to heaven. I am living my life for a purpose. If I find out I am wrong, oh well, what did it hurt? How was my life less fulfilled? Because I lived a "moral" life? Because I helped others? Because I loved my kids, didn't cheat on my wife, didn't use drugs? Because I sang songs and prayed?

If it turns out there is no God I guess I don't see my life as wasted. Heck will I even know it if there is no afterlife?

I am just rambling now, but those are just my thoughts.

Just read through all of this. Great to see a civil discussion of the issues in what can easily become a catfight.

I'm curious if anyone can recommend a book that examines the early history of Christianity, written from a historical perspective. The Case for Christ sounds interesting, but I'd like to pick up a couple of books on the subject. I'd also be interested in a book that examines the historical origins of the Bible.

The classic work is Henry Chadwick's "The Early Church", also Stuart Hall's "Doctrine and Practice in the Early Church" is great, light intro book.

For some fun stuff you can't go wrong with any Peter Brown or Wayne Meeks.

And for a mind blower, Phillip Esler's "Modelling Early Christianity: Social-Scientific Studies of the New Testament in Its Context"

Great discussion here. For all of my brothers in Christ, blessings to you for publically speaking about our faith.

AENeuman: Blessed are the theologians for they will have the best bibliography! But no mention of Early Latin theology? I thought that was pretty cool.

Didnt we go through this last year about this time...with superping:Jesus? I am sure glad we can get this started again. If you dont know where you are going when you die and you worry about it, I say that is healthy, because you will be spending alot more time dead than alive, well not in my beliefs but you will spend more time after this earthly life, so be sure it will be good.