Big article on some of the Ivermectin grifters

'America's Frontline Doctors' Peddle Bogus COVID-19 Treatment | Time

And this:

https://www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/cov...mpression=true

It's not a purely personal choice to participate in the Darwin Olympics.

This dude died.

I'm torn between wanting to laugh, cry and punch this dude in the face. Not only incredibly stupid and selfish, but what he did to his own family is the worst part.

Caleb Wallace, head of ‘San Angelo Freedom Fighters’ to “end covid tyranny” is sedated on a ventilator. He has 3 kids and wife pregnant. He treated himself with ivermectin. Here he in interview: “The science is out there, and it’s saying this is perfectly fine to live with.” pic.twitter.com/zCgUdwbbuC

— Ron Filipkowski (@RonFilipkowski) August 27, 2021

If only the hatred of Donald Trump didn't prevent research into ivermectin!

He basically dedicated his life to ensure that as many people got sick and died as possible. There is a dark humor in that. More than anything though, the world is a better place without him.

Where did the Ivermectin thing come from? Trump hasn't taken a stand on it that I'm aware - although admittedly, I've been blissfully unaware of much of what Trump has said since January.

So Paul is just using the hydroxychloroquine thing as a way to pull Trump into the Ivermectin thing? God I hate that guy so much. He just oozes such a know-it-all, I'm too smart for everybody in this room attitude, it makes me sick.

Rand Paul was like the very first politician to get covid, actively avoided quarantining & he somehow thinks that makes him an expert.

Guess he showed us

But he's in Heaven now, so laugh's on us!

We could always take a moment to celebrate the tens of thousands who daily are added to the rolls of those who recovered from COVID.

In many instances, that would simply be a celebration of recklessness and selfishness, and worse, many people take that as proof that they have no reason to get vaccinated themselves. So... I'm thankful for the children who have recovered and for the others who have legitimate reasons not to get vaccinated who survived it, but for the others... no thanks.

you are sooooooo much better than the rest of us.....

Me at the Alzheimer's research fundraiser:

WHAT ABOUT THE PEOPLE THAT DIDN'T GET ALZHEIMER'S?

dola

I doubt the simulation is perfect, although they've often been optimistic in their numbers, but the basic thrust of this is probably our future.

Not at all. I just don't see the point of repeatedly bludgeoning the same people that literally nobody on the forum agrees with. I think a little balance is useful if only for variety's sake. Maybe there's a purpose beyond what I see to constantly going around in a circle talking about how Public Personality X really should have taken the vaccine when they had the chance, how wrong it is for people to inject themselves with the wrong medications, etc.

COVID-19 - Wuhan Coronavirus (a non-political thread, see pg. 36 #1778)
 

To showcase the incredible deadly hypocrisy and irony

That is why it’s done over and over… one because it’s incredible and two because it’s alarming.


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It is also kind of funny.

That's not what drives the narrative right now.

I do think we should be constantly warning of not being vaccinated, presenting the stats etc. Although not near as bad as last year (infections & deaths), it is still bad enough that requires the constant reminders.

Sharing the good stories about recovery may (actually will) confuse the issue for many.

With that said ...

We read about how much more likely unvaccinated will die vs vaccinated. Do we know what the mortality risk is overall in current day with the Delta? If I was unvaccinated, do I have a 1% chance of dying or a 4% chance of dying? I've seen stats but I'm confused. Using just an example from recent articles ...

1.3% of fully vaccinated dies. What is the likelihood of death after being fully vaccinated for COVID-19? | WOWK 13 News

Unvaccinated are 15 times more likely to die (and 4.4x as likely to catch covid) ERROR: The request could not be satisfied

Worldometers reports that raw stats but there is a lag between infections and deaths. And it clumps stuff some last year so that skews the % some. But it reports about 73,000 new infections yesterday. So swagging it ... 73,000 x 1.3 = 949 deaths for vaccinated. x 15 = 14,235 for unvaccinated. So for 73,000 infections, we would expect 15,184 deaths.

We are no where close to that number. We will likely not get near that number. Anyone know the % of unvaccinated dying from covid as a % of infections.

Is there a link to this study somewhere?

I feel like we're still on the front edge of the deaths for Delta because of how they're trailing indicators. Also, that 1.3% number for fully vaccinated seems really high. Looking at the article, I think that's a limited sample pool in West Virginia that's particularly noisy. We saw in the previous, pre-Delta waves that the case fatality rate was under 1%, unless your hospital system got overwhelmed and therapeutics could not be widely administered, at which point it jumped to 3-5%.

SI

SI

*sigh*. That's not what I'm doing.


I view this as being like going up to random smoker and warning them about the health consequences. What's the chances of them saying 'Bless you, citizen! I've been walking around smoking these things for decades and I had no idea they were killing me!! You've done me a great service!!'

Anybody who cares to know, knows at this point. I think it's *always* valuable to have an accurate, proportionate picture. We are also paying a price for the lack of it in the exaggerated views much of the country has of the impact of the virus. But I will bend to the obvious will of the forum and leave everyone be to go round and the round the mulberry bush covering the same exact territory with nobody in opposition, no contrary view entertained, nothing new learned, etc.

Oh, my bad. I have definitely learned something new today. Thank you for these enlightened facts that add greatly to the conversation. And definitely are not being contrarian just for contrarian's sake:


EDIT: Carrying around a persecution complex isn't something that helps teach or understand. Where's the new view? The new perspective to learn from that distinguishes it from just being a contrarian rebuke?

SI

Dunno if that helps, but some general thoughts without bothering to look for hard data:

Vaccinated individuals are less likely to get tested, both because of on average much milder symptoms and being required less llikely to be routinely tested,making this a moot point. CFR for Vaccinated in many places will be much inflated compared to Unvaccinated because a) there's more people having virtually no symptoms and b) even with the same 'level' of symptoms might be less likely to be tested. That's just the reality, wether that's sensible or not. As a result the 'cohort' of vaccinated individuals will already be preselected to include comparatively many with significant symptoms and risk factors. And ironically vaccines are expected to be less effective the older the person is, though it is as little a factor here as one could hope for in a first 'draft' especially.

CFR is dependent on test frequency and distribution, making it similarly problematic, doubly so in small samples. And it's never your risk, unless you are the average personified. This also depends on available treatment, available care etc, etc.
Delta is quite a bit more likely to result in hospitalisation or death all things being equal compared to Alpha/Wildtype based on half a dozen big studies now from the UK, Canada, China and a couple more places i forget (correcting for age, vacc status, sex and even time of test and place of test to correct for testing volume going up/down).

Only reasonable way to measure nowadays is either by preselecting samples (like the UK infection survey) or look at hospital data, the more detailed (f.e. by different demographics and age groups) the better. Then calculate odds vacc/unvacc taking into account % of population/age group so you don't get stupid headlines like "more vaccinated in hospital than unvaccinated" at UK levels of Vaccine coverage (where f.e. 3-4% of over 50s are unvaccinated and thus 'only' 40% or similar are unvaccinated in hospital).
Everything else is utterly pointless to communicate to the general public.

Smokers know for the most part it is bad for them, they choose to take the risk.

Anti vaxers truly believe taking the vaccine is worse than the prospects of Covid, for a variety of reasons. Then you have people like these radio hosts who validate those thoughts.

I fail to see how your example makes any sense.

Why don't we talk more about the 85% of smokers that don't get lung cancer? Even smokers that get lung cancer often die from something else. Kind of puts the anti-smoking campaigns into perspective, IMO.

Why don't we talk about the houses that aren't destroyed by the hurricane?

On a more serious note, tomorrow I'm going to a funeral for a fellow church elder that died last week from COVID.

:lol: :D

This is a tremendously interesting thread.

This is a good point.

When anti-vaxxers cite their freedoms, constitutional rights, and–the whitest thing of all–the Founding Fathers to rail against vaccine mandates, do they know what they're talking about?

What if I told you this happens EXACTLY every 100 years?

A thread. https://t.co/oKHhVozGhO

— Michael Harriot (@michaelharriot) August 29, 2021

I don't understand why all of these people have to die when we could just stop counting cases so they don't exist.

Average US deaths/day via @CNN:

Right now: 1,274 deaths/day
10 days ago: 820 deaths/day
20 days ago: 514 deaths/day
30 days ago: 305 deaths/day

— Ryan Struyk (@ryanstruyk) August 29, 2021

Duke is not messing around. The freedom that private universities get to protect their students without having to get the blessing of GOP members of the state legislatures is nice.

If employees don’t get vaccinated by Oct. 1, they will be terminated and will not be eligible for rehire with Duke in the future. https://t.co/Dxh0hHdBnB

— The News & Observer (@newsobserver) August 29, 2021

Similar to what you said. There's a difference between wishing death upon someone, and acknowledging karma.

No one had to wish death upon him. He took care of it himself.

My employer did the same (although I'm not sure about the "future employment" part). There are 6-9 holdouts in my company of about 50 people. They have until September 10th to get the first shot or tender their resignation on the 11th.

It may or may not be a thing. Of course, we are still dealing with small sample sizes, pun not intended, but each bit of information that comes out seem to coming to the same conclusion.

COVID-19 could cause male infertility and sexual dysfunction – but vaccines do not

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.raw...ele-2654836582


Another one gone. Good riddance.

My employer has deactivated all building access cards to those who have not provided proof of vaccination (the vaccination card), though we haven't opened the office yet, and most (read: non-essential employees) are still working from home.

So a Cincinnati area judge has ordered doctors to administer Ivermectin to a patient. Good Lord.

EDIT/Correction - a hospital has been forced to provide Ivermectin based on a doctor's prescription.

If the science backs up that this is as bad for you as it seems, I hope doctors like this lose their licenses.

Even if someone wished death on him, that is not what killed him. That would be "magic thinking" and not science. Sort of like what anti-vaccers believe in.

Well, my employer gives us 4-day weekends around most of the major holidays, so these people have to make a decision coming off of an extra long Labor Day weekend as to whether they want to go find another job as good as the one they currently have.

Has to feel shitty to die from a disease you think doesn't exist. Like why are you even in the fucking hospital pal?

I'm sure he thinks the doctors were killing him

COVID-19 - Wuhan Coronavirus (a non-political thread, see pg. 36 #1778)
 

That’s the conspiracy I read

The claim is that the doctors are killing these people to get at Desantis 🤦‍♂️

One of my Realtors falls for every single Russian conspiracy push there is


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If the doctors are killing them, they just shouldn't go to the hospital.

Yeah, a lot of theories that the ventilators are the cause of death.

My favorite I've heard lately is that the 'cemetery shot' is about population control, but also half of the vaccines given out are placebos. In no reality can both simultaneously be true.

i just keep wondering if I've caught covid anytime since getting the vaccine

There are 120 counties in Kentucky. As of yesterday, the only one that is NOT in red is Woodford County, where I live. Not so coincidentally, Woodford just so happens to have the highest vaccination rate in the state.

This is not brain surgery.

Thankfully my two coworkers (father and son) are both very ill with Covid like symptoms, but have tested negative for Covid. One of the other guys might also have what they have.

Also has not taken a tes... tested negative?

SI

I do also. There have been a few stretches where I had a headache, etc...and I wonder.

Hay, guys! It turns out the FDA approval wasn't what was really holding people back from getting the shot. That was definitely unexpected /s

Link: hxxps://yourlocalepidemiologist.substack.com/p/state-of-affairs-august-30-2021 (hxxp'd because it keeps screwing up the formatting)



SI

Mid-April is when they temporarily halted use of J&J based on 6 adverse cases, right? That appears to be right about peak and then a precipitous decline since.

I think there's something there. But there was always going to be a steep fall off whenever we got past the point where "people who wanted the vaccine" met "supply of vaccine". Eventually, we were going to hit the 30% of "it's just the flu, bro" crowd.

SI

I do agree we were always going to reach a tipping point, but it appears the J&J decision made some "yes" people delay getting it, has kept others from getting it even today, and pushed others into the "no way, bro" category.

That's what it looks like to me. It's obviously hard to say with any sort of confidence, but that drop off was quick and deep right about the same time as the decision.

I'm pleasantly surprised there's almost a million people getting a shot every day. There's some booster people on there, but that's a lot of people finally coming around, maybe by necessity for work, maybe because something finally hit them, like the impact of the death of a loved one.

Edit: early to mid-april was also the time in the U.S. that anyone who wanted to be fully vaccinated could have been so. That was a pretty significant threshold. If there was a chart of people I knew getting the vaccine, it would have peaked around then and them immediately dropped to zero or near-zero.

So catering to the anti-vaxxers is the reason we haven't gotten an under 12 EUA yet.

I sometimes wish that some aspect of our local, state, and federal governments dedicated itself--even briefly--to some goal other than trying not to hurt MAGA feelings.



Source: CDC/IDSA COVID-19 Clinician Call: Update on COVID-19 in the Pediatric Population - Hosted in partnership with the AAP

dola: Take all the time you need to give it full approval. But by withholding the EUA for political reasons, you are depriving parents of the choice to give their kids something that might save their lives.

Trust us to do our own risk/reward calculus.

That reads like it was written by an anti-vaxxer troll.

Hmmm. I think that it is probably their actual thought process.

But I guess if you are this guy, and you are frustrated at how your colleagues are (in your opinion) slow rolling the process, you might choose to strategically give this answer, knowing that it will lead to people like me demanding action.

I get what they are saying though. It's paranoia paralysis because of how well a disinformation campaign works.

I kinda think we'll see the same thing with the next elections. How many elections officials were used to just doing things the old way, not really thinking about or caring how or when the votes were finalized because they weren't used to or ready for the immediate deconstruction and alternate narrative attached to every single vote release. Now, suddenly it's, "Well, hell, we can't just count them in groups for each candidate and dump them like we used to. Now we have to think about how we count them, when we release them, etc., so that someone can't create a false narrative about the votes that are being counted."

It comes across like an acknowledgment that they don't believe it's safe for kids, and have to pick the most politically-opportunistic time to release it to mitigate the inevitable fallout if things go wrong.

I know that's not what they mean, but this is why it's always better to do the right thing than to do what you think others will perceive to be the right thing, or put management of the perception of your actions above the actual appropriateness of the actions and timing for the action.

(This is a common challenge in public service, which is a role that a lot of brilliant doctors and scientists are being thrown into in a way they haven't been before).

And maddeningly frustrating as it's already rolling like wildfire through schools. If you wanted to get the most bang for the buck, the best time was 6 weeks ago. The next best time is now.

SI

Brazilian viper venom may become tool in fight against COVID, study shows | Reuters

Part of me likes to imagine this is all just a game to see how far the right will go for non-vaccine treatments for covid. We're way past the tide pod challenge at this point.

Assume "effective" means infection rates. Want to know about mortality/hospitalization rates also though ... assume Moderna is better at that also but by how much.

Moderna vs. Pfizer vaccine: Which creates more antibodies? - Deseret News

I think 2 of us got Pfizer (including me) and 2 of us got Moderna. I guess I'm glad my wife got Moderna seeing as though she's in flight to Florida for a week to visit her parents.

I wonder if that’s why people seemed to have a worse reaction to Moderna.

That's always been my uneducated guess. We basically "overloaded" the Moderna vaccine to get a really strong immune response while Pfizer was a bit more conservative with theirs

SI

Interesting. In that case I'm a bit scared of what would have happened if I got Moderna. The second dose of Pfizer had me out of commission for almost a week.

I was Moderna and my wife and son were Pfizer. They had the typical kinda-tired, kinda-sore the day after shot #2.

I had a day in bed with fever, chills, etc. Interestingly, though, when it was gone, it was gone. I didn't have that lingering fatigue like you do when you are recovering from the flu, etc.

I had the chills and fever thing for a day with Pfizer. Sucked, but better than getting the real thing.

My wife and I were glad to take the day off work the day after Moderna (2nd shot). But, yeah, woke up the next morning right as rain - basically 24 hours of suck

SI

I didn't even get a sore arm with Pfizer.

Everyone in my family got Moderna and didn't feel a thing outside of a sore arm.

I had a sore arm for a couple days and felt like I had a hangover after the 2nd shot. But not a big deal. Believe it was Moderna.

I'm not fully certain about the demographics of this... but for a decent sliver of America, maybe the best thing to happen to them in the near term would be for Joe Rogan's bout with COVID to be consequential and difficult. I don't wish for him to die or even suffer, really... but if he went through a lot after telling so many people not to worry about this... maybe it could help convince another 1% or 2% of our fellow Americans to change heart and get the vax.

I know we're close to writing people off... but some things are still moving the needle. Stronger incentives, and workplace/travel mandates seem to have some obvious effect. Maybe another brand of influencer could, as well.

The denial phenomenon is a social effect. It may take a social event to help break the spell. Maybe Rogan is the guy.


(I'm honestly not calling for him to die for his sins, though I'll likely catching flak as if I were saying so)

What if instead, he immediately took horse paste and then suggested that was part of why he recovered so easily?

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/joe-rog...19-ivermectin/

It definitely wasn't the proven medical solution in the group that helped. I'm sure it was the rando antibiotics, vitamins, and horse dewormer.

SI

The problem is he will get better, and his toxic masculinity will never allow him to admit he was wrong and afraid. Instead he will talk down the FDA approved vaccine and talk up the experimental and expensive meds that allowed him to get better.

Had he died it would have moved the needle far more.

Yeah, I guess I relent. Was a pipe dream, I suppose.

*BTW, I'm seeing twitterers urge caution here, saying the press coverage of him as a a vax-denier is overblown or unfair... no first hand knowledge here, I'm not a listener, but my original thought was indeed predicated on thinking he had been outwardly anti-vax and covid-dismissive.

He's more of a contrarian that questions authority any chance he gets. He stated young people shouldn't get vaccinated but then walked that statement back after the backlash. I don't think he's come out as anti-vax, but instead walks a fine line.

I think he's someone who has the ability to move the needle in a non-conventional fashion. He seems like the type of guy who can reach some folks who "don't watch the news" (though if they do, it will always be Fox).

Unfortunately, this requires him to learn from the experience and I'm skeptical of that.

SI

It's certainly possible that some version of Ivermectin - designed for humans - could be of some benefit. We don't know, although I've read there are some small studies supporting this in other countries. The irony is that if it ever got to the point of serious consideration in the US, by the time the FDA/CDC gave it the seal of approval, I suppose all of these anti-vaxxers/contrarians would refuse to take it on the same grounds as they are refusing the vaccine!

I mean, he just loudly trumpeted literally everything but the vaccination as the cure for his own covid, let alone had an 'emergency episode' of his podcast that was one of the of the earliest promotions of Ivermectin.

A friend of mine is a huge fan boy, talks him up like he wants to fuck him, and this is how he describes him.

The last few years has made it clear that a lot of us in this society never got past angry rebel teen phase.

(Me, personally, I avoided that by never maturing much past about 7; sure I was a contrarian teenager and early 20 but then I regressed back further; now shut up and let me go back to playing Pokemon)

SI

He's like that older guy that hangs around high school kids drinking, smoking weed, and dropping knowledge. When you were in high school he was the coolest guy you knew. But now, for those of us that have grown up, we look back at that guy and realize he was a dumbass.

yeah, my buddy insists I would like him if I listened, and I was like, umm, no I won't.

I don't wanna sound like a dick, but when you are smart enough to know what and who he is there really isn't any way you could possibly find value in his show.

So I requested some info from our CFO yesterday and he told me it would be another week or so before he could get to it because he's assisting our CEO and HR person in preparing for potential departures due to the Covid mandate they put in place. We both got on a call early this afternoon, so for some small talk, I asked him whether they were just preparing in case, or if he knew people would be leaving. He said they are pretty sure several people will be leaving.

I just can't believe anyone would willingly give up employment over this. And yeah, I get that a lot of people are moving jobs in the Great Post-Covid Employment Migration, but this is a great company to work for with a track record for having employees stick around upwards of 70 years (we have a woman who's pushing late 80s who started in 1952).

Just crazy.

Well

If you’re still awaiting evidence that the vaccine work and don’t kill people at a higher rate than covid then you have no choice because you’d be committing dioxide to go get the jab


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Not to mention there just aren't going to be many good companies to work for that won't have a vaccine mandate.

Somewhat concerning article. Basically, Israel had a relatively successful rollout and offering boosters, is still seeing a significant rise in infections but severe illness (and mortality) is still lower than before. The number per million infected is much higher than the US and therefore, a possible preview of what's to come over here.

The new normal may be higher-than-flu infection rates, and higher-than-flu mortality rates ... but "acceptable" mortality rates. The article doesn't state recent % mortality. I do wonder if this is intentional e.g. if recent mortality rate is .3%, there is concern that people will look at that and say I'm willing to take the risk.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/08/30/isra...ases-rise.html

Nothing from my multi-national company yet. I don't know if we have a rush to mandate vaccinations since the vast, vast majority of us are still remote and clients are in no rush for us to be onsite.

We are helping colleagues in other countries in procuring vaccines which I think is pretty cool.

I selfishly want to see this continue just to change the narrative about the people who involved in the Great Post-Covid Employment Migration. I am assuming these are not people who are "lazy and just don't want to work."

whoa you used the phrase "rolling like" without it being followed by "thunder under the covers"

Seen this a bit elsewhere. Crazy thing is how many people 50 and over are willing to torch their careers over it. It's not terribly easy to find good, new jobs at that age.

It feels like they think they'll be some martyr and people will come to their rescue. But it's more likely they'll just be unemployed and struggle for years.

And some states are denying unemployment.

Employment benefits could be denied for those fired over Oregon COVID-19 vaccine mandate | KATU

They can probably get a nice mandate-free job in a coal mine somewhere...

Same with my company. When they announced the mandatory vaccine my middle son said that he heard kids at school say they wouldn't consider working there anymore, and I'm like, you're gonna turn your back on a potential 10M dollar career because of this?

or

The very small % of pilots at the company who are getting ready to vacate too over it and I just don't get why this is the hill your resting your entire career on. It's fucking stupid. It's not like anyone said they had to actually kill someone to stay employed.