Its easy to look back with 20/20 hindsight, but Baker WAS considered to be a genius back in the late 90s. He was in very high demand by other ball clubs and many considered him to be a great manager. A minority was saying he isn't that good, but most people considered him to be great, as evidenced by the Manager of the Year awards.

I remember when the Cubs got Dusty. You had people saying that's the final piece to break the curse.

Now that you mentioned you've coached, do you think there might be some bias here?

Baseball Prospectus had to Tigers picked to finish 2nd in their division behind the Twins and ahead of the White Sox. That was almost a dead-on projection that didn't take Leyland into account. The biggest thing Leyland has done is given his players defined roles. Leyland was hitting Neifi Perez leadoff for a stretch last season and has used Todd Jones as his closer over better relievers.

LaRussa has consistently managed talented clubs in Oakland and St. Louis. As far as talent goes, he's probably been the 2nd luckiest manager next to Bobby Cox. Pointing out World Series wins as part of greatness is ridiculous. A mediocre St. Louis team won last year because of how much luck is involved in winning once you get to the playoffs in the Wild Card era. If we're going to give him credit for a World Series win with a mediocre club are we going to blame him for the A's and Cardinals teams that should have won it, but didn't?

Also, its absurd that you said earlier you were mostly saber guy and then mention Tony LaRussa of all people as a great manager. This is a guy that sent Pujols out to left field a couple years ago with a serious injury to his shoulder. The intent, according to La Russa, was to intimidate the opponent, even though Pujols had to underhand the ball to the shortstop every time the ball went to him. This is after team doctors told LaRussa that Pujols risked career ending injury if he threw a baseball. If you think LaRussa is a great manager, I suggest picking up his book and see if you can make it 50 pages before throwing up.

Girardi was hated by his players. His also sent Josh Johnson out to the mound after a rain delay and he hasn't been the same since. Don't you find it odd that not one single player spoke out on his behalf when the rumors of him being fired started or even after he was fired. His team also finished 2 games under their Pythag record. Last year they finished 78-84, this year they're 23-25, so its not like this was an untalented team that he was managing.

Bobby Cox is generally considered the best manager in baseball and you could make a strong arguement that Baker was the worst so we're working with extremes this year. During that 14 year run there were 3 years in which the Braves won the division by 2 games or less and I'm could easily see teams run by Baker not winning those. However, the next closest finish was 6.5 games and if you think the difference in Baker and Cox is that large then we're talking the difference in All-Star player and replacement level player.

I'd also like to go back to the point about LaRussa winning the World Series with a mediocre team. Cox took his team to the playoffs 14 times. Surely, if a manager as great as Bobby Cox had some sort of tangible impact on the game, they'd have won more than one World Series, wouldn't they? You see, Bobby Cox and the Braves are the best example of how fluky winning the World Series can be in the Wild Card era.

Baker was absolutely considered a great manager by just about everyone outside the stats community (the same stats community that thinks a manager's impact is minimal). Don't you remember the stadiums filled with "In Dusty we trust" signs his first year with the Cubs? Try to find a negative article about Dusty prior to his 2nd season with the Cubs.

Chief, Angels had a nice sweep of the Yankees and are looking a lot better than I expected. With Kendrick back and Kotchman hitting the ball as well as he has, they have a pretty solid lineup.

I expect Oakland to make another 2nd half run, but right now the Angels look like their the class of that division.

What's even better is that we still have GA and Rivera coming back, although I'm not sure how they're going to resolve the Willits-GA-Rivera LF-DH spot conundrum.

By all reports, Kotchman is hittign about what he was expected to if he was healthy two years ago. Kendrick has all the talent int he world. And Napoli has finally bought into some adjustment to his swing that makes him less of the free swinger he once was, leading to how he is hitting now.

Still, this offense is going to go through some tough spots. Willits, Kendrick, Napoli and Kotchman are all so young and bound to continue to have their ups and downs.

I think the A's will make their usual run, as you said, but they have so much injuries and such a weak offense, they're running out of time. So I'm crossing my fingers there. The pitching and defense for us have been terrific.

Now if only we could figure out Ervin Santana.

The Yankees can't keep this up all year, can they? This has been so much fun, I hope it never ends.

According to Verducci on Mike & Mike this morning, the AL WC winner has won 95 games for the past 6 years. If that happens this year, the Yankees would have to go 74-39 to end the season to get to 95 wins. Also mentioned this morning was that on the day Clemens announced he was signing with the Yankees, they were 5.5 games out of first. Since then - in 22 days - they've lost 8 games in the standings. I guess he's setting himself up for legend status if this team can turn it around and make the playoffs, but you have to wonder whether he's wishing he had signed with the Red Sox at this point.

I am beginning to think the BoSox weren't ever an option. I think he wishes he were in Houston if anything. Close to home and in a very weak devision where the top teams can't even beat non NL Central teams.

From the get go this was a two horse race, not that it should matter to BoSox fans, as it this point he'd just be a luxury.

Whether you've heard of Steve Dalkowski or not, this is a fascinating read. The story is amazing and the stats are mind-boggling.

http://www.hardballtimes.com/main/ar...kowski-depths/

Barber again: "I remember one night, Bo (Belinsky, Dalkowski's roommate; how bad an idea was that?) and I were together, and we went into this place, and Steve's there, and he says, 'Hey, guys, come over and look at this beautiful sight'—24 scotch-and-waters lined up in front of him. And he was pitching the next day! Then he stopped on the way home and bought a gallon of wine and killed that, too. The next night they just carried him off the mound in the fourth inning."


I tried this once during a game of Inside the Park Baseball and didn't quite make it through the second inning. :)

Damn, I guess ESPN's looking for every angle they can on the Bonds HR record story. The front page has an article suggesting someone might try to kill him to keep him from breaking the record. Worthy of a front page, "could happen" article? I don't know...

very interesting stuff.

And it just so happens that ESPN has the Giants against the Mets tonight. Seems like a rather low attempt at getting viewers for their game tonight and future SF games they'll televise between now and the time he breaks the record.

Everyone should watch tonight, because Tim Lincecum is pitching. The guy's amazing.

I can't wait to see him. Although as a Mets fan it may sting a little.

I can't believe I missed the start of this game. I was wanting to see Lincecum and Perez go at it.

SI

Kansas City Royals
Texas Rangers
Washington Nationals
St. Louis Cardinals
Cincinnati Reds

Those are the only five teams with a winning percentage worse than the New York Yankees right now. The 24 million dollar Devil Rays are tied with them.

And yet I'm still scared. Is it at all beyond the realm of possibility that they could catch fire in the second half and go into the playoffs scorching hot? Last year the Twins were 25-33 after 58 games. They finished with 96 wins. The Yankees are 21-29 now. They go 4-4 in their next 8 and they are at the same spot.

If they were to do it, it'd be worse than watching them lead wire to wire. Not only would we be forced to follow their comeback on a daily basis, Clemens would move into God like status. The Summer of Bonds and Clemens. I'd be sick to my stomach. It just can't happen, can it?

I didn't post for fear of jynixing so I blame both of you (mostly Mizzou ;) ), for this current skid. And it has nothing to do with a starting pitcher ERA that has to be around 6 or 7 during problem stretch.

SI

Ew... I think I just threw up a little in my mouth.

SI

I hope not. The difference between the Twins and the Yankees is that the Twins have a bunch of younger guys. It's possible, but guys like Damon, Giambi, etc., are physically not in a place where they can turn it around easily. I think this is the Yankees team we all thought we'd see a few years ago, but never believed would happen.

I'm hoping for the worst-case scenario like Olney wrote about a few days ago...Steinbrenner snaps, fires Cashman, brings in a crappy GM who is under pressure to win right away, they sign a bunch of older guys, and the cycle continues for a few more seasons. I doubt that will happen, so I'm just going to enjoy this while it lasts.

Balk-o-rama

SI

Holy crap, that was kindof fun to watch even if I'd rather have not seen the Mets win.

SI

Armando Benitez makes me sad.

That was bizarre. Almost like watching a little league game.

And in other news, Ervin Santana has given up just 1 run in 7 innings...at home, of course.

If they fail to make the playoffs, I don't see Cashman or Torre staying. I'm sure with every loss the Tampa group's voices are getting louder and louder for Steinbrenner. I'm amazed that the only move made thus far is firing the strength and conditioning coach.

I still think this is a team that will end up within a couple games of .500. People can say its hindsight, but as you say, this is the team a lot of people were expecting at some point but just couldn't imagine the Yankees falling this far.

Also, judging from Clemens stuff in the minors, he's going to have to get a lot better or American League hitters are going to tear him apart. BP measured his value over what Igawa would give them as 1.5-2 wins from the time he's called up. Hard to believe, but considering we haven't seen Clemens in the AL since '03 its difficult to think he'll have anywhere near the success he had in the NL.

I don't think that's even in doubt if they continue the collapse and miss the playoffs. I think everyone goes. Mattingly may be the only one left after the fallout happens. Steinbrenner is liable to go nuts and increase the payroll to 300 million next year, gutting the organization in the process.

That's why they just can't get hot and win 96 games. I honestly can't think of anything worse in sports than watching them go nuts the second half. I'd rather watch the Raiders win Super Bowls, Duke win basketball titles and the Lakers rule the NBA again. . . all at the same time than to see the Yankees make a huge second half push.

My bad. I knew we'd slide back to losing, but man this has been REAL ugly lately. I'll keep my mouth shut next time the Royals go on a winning streak.

The Reds win 2 straight. They're on the comeback trail! WOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!

Can we take Armando back out and shoot him?

Oh please. If we could do that, don't you think someone would have done it already? :mad:

Captain Meltdown strikes again.

You have to understand how great it was for Mets fans that Benitez was the one that imploded last night. Thats 4 years of frustrations that suddenly don't seem quite as bad.

Mauer's return delayed...
"Twins still hoping Mauer can return on Friday"
MINNEAPOLIS -- Minnesota Twins catcher Joe Mauer's return from the disabled list has been delayed.
The reigning AL batting champion, who was hitting .353 when he strained his left quadriceps earlier this month, showed up sore on Wednesday for the second straight day.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2887537

/tk

So i think A-Rod just called "I got it" on a fly ball except he was the baserunner. Two of Toronto's infielders let the ball fall, a run scored, and they were pissed at A-Rod. I think it's awesome if he did, but the announcers seemed to think it was poor sportsmanship. Is it really that bad and why don't more people do this? I don't think it's against the rules and he's just doing anything to get a must needed win. I think it's a heads up play and he should be praised for it, but I'm sure he'll be criticized because he's A-Rod. This is nothing like slapping Arroyo's glove a couple years ago because that is against the rules. Good play A-Rod.

Well, it can easily be deemed baserunner interference:

http://www.cheatersguidetobaseball.c...5/23/i-got-it/

Yeah, but I don't see it as interference anywhere in the MLB Official Rules. And apparently A-Rod said "Mine." I still like the play and I thought this was more common around the league so I was just surprised at the announcers saying it was Bush League.

A heads up play? It's bush league plain and simple. I wish he had another AB coming so they could put a fastball in his ear. If it was a heads up play guys would do it all the time, you NEVER see that happen. Bush league.

Not everything is spelled out precisely. Some things are subject to interpretation, such as calling out "I got it" or "Mine" in order to confuse the defense being interference.

And yeah, it is a bush league play.

Man, Gil Meche with another awesome game and no run support.

SI

Ping: dawgfan

It looks like neither of us will be wanting to use tonight's game as an example of our young pitcher's quality. So much for a pitcher's duel.

At least it's a fun game to watch.

You're a little biased, but are you saying that if anyone besides A-Rod did this that it wouldn't be construed this way? Hasn't trickery in baseball been a common thing forever? Stealing signs, hidden ball trick, and I'm not so sure that this NEVER happens. I think A-Rod actually said "Ha" or something like that.

Damn, tires out at 100 pitches and gives up a run. Now the O's tack on 2 more and it's probably over. :(

SI

Stealing signs and hidden ball trick don't run the risk of player injury. Confusing two players going after a pop-fly or fly ball can be dangerous and it should be illegal. If I'm Toronto next time I see A-Rod I'm putting a fastball near his chin.

How is it dangerous? If anything they both back away and the ball drops. There wouldn't be a collision between the two players because both players think the other is going to catch it. The ball was hit right where the Toronto 3rd baseman was standing and he was directly under it so why would the shortstop be running all the way over to his right to call him off? I think the 3rd baseman was a little embarassed that he was tricked so easily and let his frustrations out and his teammates and manager defended him. If this had happened to A-Rod everyone would be laughing at him and it wouldn't be an issue.

Doing it once, in that case, isn't dangerous because a players first reaction is going to be to back off. If it ever became more common it would cause major issues with communication when multiple players are going after a ball and does risk injury. So you drill A-Rod once and make sure it doesn't happen again.

Ok, there's issues with communication anyway when multiple players are going after a ball. I don't think it should be illegal, but if Toronto thinks it was dirty then they can drill him next game. No problem with that. The Yankees will just drill someone back and it will be solved. A-Rod was praised for his hard slide into 2nd on Pedroia which could have caused injury so I don't see this as any different. It's a legit play.

I know how that goes. Bedard's win tonight was his only one in May despite a 1.71 ERA for the month.

Exactly, there's already communication issues so anything thats going to compound things and put any doubt as to whether someone is legitimately calling them off is dangerous.

I've never seen a hard slide ending with a player being taken off on a stretcher and spending several days in a hospital. Anything that potentially increases the chances of a collision in the outfield should be illegal. It was cheap, I hope Toronto takes care of it.

Bleah. This was a critical game for the M's if they wanted to remain a legit contender for the AL West. Being 5.5 back is a lot worse than being 3.5 back. And even though there will some side benefits to the M's dropping out of contention (Bavasi and Hargrove will surely be gone if that happens), there's also a big negative - it also likely means Ichiro will refuse to re-sign with the M's. July 31st is going to loom like a black cloud for this team if they aren't a realistic contender, as the team will have to make a very difficult choice - trade Ichiro to try and get something more than just a compensation pick, or roll the dice and see if they can manage to re-sign him (unlikely - he's sick of losing).

Felix has awesome stuff, but when he isn't commanding his fastball well and isn't mixing his pitches he can get hurt badly. Kudos to the Angels for doing as much damage as they did, but that wasn't Felix's best game. Ditto for Weaver. I think he's a better pitcher than his numbers show so far this year (though not as good as last year's numbers).

Yeah, more power to Felix and all, but Weaver isn't close to the pitcher that Felix is. IMO, Felix may be the only pitcher in baseball I'd take over Lincecum (contracts, salary, control and all being part of the consideration)

Lincecum has electric stuff for sure. It'd be good for the game if they can both stay healthy, and for Liriano to return to health and his dominant stuff of last year.

Lots of very promising young pitchers in the game right now...

Nope, I don't care if it is A-Rod or Joe Blow up from the minors. It's a bush league play. They asked some of the Blue Jays players post game if that had ever happened in a game that they were in and to a man they all said that was the first time they had ever seen anything like that.

What ARod did was a joke and a bush league play, plain and simple.

Guys shout in the field like that for each others saftey, for someone to mess with that is BS IMO

Geez...I'm as much an A-Rod hater as anyone, but you guys are making way too big a deal of this. I'm still trying to figure out how it could possibly be dangerous to two fielders if they both think the other will catch the ball. If anything, he's protecting them by not causing them to go after it.

Plus, Willie Mays Hayes did this during the season where the Indians reached the World Series, and no one complained about it then.

It's dangerous because the next time they may not back off thinking that someone is messing with them. Duh.

Shouldn't we be talking about this instead? Duh!

http://www.nypost.com/seven/05312007...an_in_n_y_.htm

http://www.nypost.com/seven/05302007...dan_mangan.htm

I was traveling yesterday in the car, so I heard my fill of Stray-Rod talk and was mildly surprised that no one brought it up here. Apparently his wife packed a couple of suitcases and left last night. And now there are all sorts of sightings of ARod at stripclubs all over the country. It's like the Vick thing, in a way...everyone knew about it, but no one felt the need to talk about it until it became public.

As much as I like to boo A-Rod, this kind of "journalism" really turns me off.

Not saying it's right, but Cowherd made a legit point yesterday that these athletes and their agents who want to increase their exposure to make more money and take them out of the realm of sports have to learn to deal with this now. This wasn't sports journalists, this is what these types of people do to celebs. And people like ARod transcend sports and become fodder for the grocery store line mags that chicks like to read.

I'm not sure I would call it journalism, but it definitely sells. And nowadays, so many athletes are becoming celebrities that this was inevitable.

I think the media uses the term "blonde bombshell" way too much.

You're right, and he in particular brings it on himself. When he comes out and says that people don't like him because he's a good-looking guy, people are going to increase their hatred.

This is a joke, right? I'm sure I've seen guys go sprawling about 5 feet off the bag to attempt to take out the 2B/SS on a double play. The "intention" may not be to injure, but that's a possibility. Heck, when players are trying to score, they do their best to pulverize the catcher...remember, they are going full speed, the catcher is stationary, mostly keeping his eye on the ball.

There are plenty of legal plays with the possibility of serious injury, this is not one of them. On pop ups like that, at least when I play, somebody calls it right away and loud, and everyone else backs up. In that case, the SS should have actually been covering 3rd or 2nd, or wherever the runners were going. It's a case of a "cheap" play taking advantage of poor communication.

Actually, the catcher blocking the plate is illegal, and I still can't understand why MLB allows it, giving the possibility of injury that exists on collisions.

Actually both things you describe here are illegal. The catcher blocking the plate, as Ksyrup pointed out, and you have to be within arms reach of the base if you're going to break up a double play.

As I stated earlier, that play didn't necessarily risk injury, but if it becomes more common it does increase the chances of collisions in shallow center and shallow left.

A-Rod has become a real jackass lately, this is the guy who came out of the baseline and tried to break up a double play by punching a Sox player in the Jimmies.

Can we call him "Just Felix" now?

Phil Hughes just suffered a serious ankle sprain:

The Grade 3 diagnosis is considered the most severe possible strain, in which one or more ligaments are stretched and completely torn. The Yankees made Hughes' results public Wednesday, prior to the club's game against the Toronto Blue Jays at the Rogers Centre.

Yankees officials had hoped Hughes would return in mid-June. But now with the setback, the hurler won't even throw off a mound until somewhere from late June to early July.

Pretty interesting article from Baseball Mogul:

http://www.sportsmogul.com/content/may30.htm

And now Giambi is out!




Yanks' Giambi out indefinitely after tearing tissue in left foot arch

Updated: May 31, 2007, 8:14 PM ET

NEW YORK -- Jason Giambi will be sidelined at least three weeks and possibly far longer after tearing tissue in his left foot while rounding the bases on a home run.

The latest setback in a tumultuous season for the New York Yankees designated hitter occurred Tuesday night in Toronto. Giambi was examined in New York on Thursday by Dr. William Hamilton and will be placed on the disabled list before Friday's game at Boston.

"I'd say it's a severe injury," Yankees general manager Brian Cashman said.

While the best-case scenario likely would have Giambi returning in three to six weeks, Cashman couldn't rule out that Giambi could miss the remainder of the season.

"That I don't know," he said. "Ultimately it simply will be ready when it's healed. Right now I can't tell you how long that's going to take."

Giambi was shifted from first base to designated hitter this year and hit .322 with four homers and 17 RBIs in April. His foot began bothering him soon after he played the field for the first time on April 28, and he batted .117 in May with three homers and six RBIs.

He originally was diagnosed with a bone spur and switched to shoes with orthotics that he said relieved the pain. Giambi then hurt the foot more severely when he homered in the seventh inning Tuesday night.

"Rounding the bases he felt a pop," Cashman said. "There wasn't a tear before. Now there is."

Giambi traveled to New York on Thursday's day off, intending to get a cortisone shot, but Hamilton said Giambi had plantar fasciitis, inflamed tissue that causes pain near the heel, and a partially torn plantar fascia, connective tissue between the heel and that base of the toes that supports the arch of the foot.

Giambi's foot will be put in a walking boot, which will be removed in three weeks. He will have another MRI exam then, but Cashman said the boot might go right back on.

The 36-year-old Giambi, the 2000 AL MVP with the Oakland Athletics, is in the sixth season of a $120 million, seven-year contract with the Yankees and has been in the news this season for his role in baseball's steroids controversy.

In the May 18 editions of USA Today he was quoted as saying, "I was wrong for doing that stuff," which many interpreted as an admission of steroids use, and the Daily News reported five days later that he had failed an amphetamines test within the past year.

Giambi met last week with lawyers for Major League Baseball, and his case has been turned over to commissioner Bud Selig, who hasn't said whether he will attempt to discipline Giambi.

Melky Cabrera is likely to receive more playing time in the outfield while Giambi is sidelined, with Johnny Damon, Bobby Abreu and Hideki Matsui seeing spells at DH. Damon, who has had leg problems, probably will see the bulk of the DH time.

Kevin Thompson likely will be brought up from the minors.

"At this stage we'll just reconfigure the roster and move forward," Cashman said.

Giambi has been among the struggling hitters in New York's lineup. The Yankees are just 22-29, tied for last in the AL East and 13{ games behind first-place Boston heading into a weekend series at Fenway Park.

Notes
RHP Carl Pavano will have reconstructive elbow surgery Tuesday, and Mets medical director Dr. David Altcheck will operate. Pavano will be sidelined for at least a year. ... RHP Phil Hughes has a grade three ankle sprain and won't resume pitching off a mound for four to six weeks, Cashman said.

C'mon, we all know Selig suspended him and this is how they're covering up the steroid suspension. ;)

I thought the Yankees decided to terminate his contract and this is how they agreed to cover it up, so the Yanks can get some insurance coverage for part of the remainder of his contract.

Given his May stats, I'm not sure if this hurts the Yankees or not, to be honest.

Ok, this is funny.

Wow. That should have happened in the spring, when the Giants could have gotten more for him.

Well, the guy was pretty damn good the last time he was with Florida. At least against the Mets...

And the Giants are paying $4.7M of the $5M he's owed. It's basically no risk for the Marlins.

Wow, just read that Zambrano and Barrett were fighting in the clubhouse with Barrett getting a fat lip and a trip to the hospital. Poor Cubs.

Was pretty entertaining. Barrett had a passed ball and an error on the same play. Zambrano was pitching horribly. In the dugout at the end of the inning Zambrano approached Barrett, said a couple things, then started to walk away and then just snapped.

Neither one of these guys is doing much of anything this year, so I think they just let their frustrations out on each other.

The Padres finished the month of May with a 18-9 record and 2.17 team ERA! Amazing.

The NL West is just loaded with pitching. It should be a good race coming down the stretch.

Todd Jones pitches the 8th and 9th, and gives up 7 runs to give the Indians a 12-11 win.

HORRIBLE coaching by Jim Leyland to just leave him in the game. What a fucking joke, you fucking tool. Go smoke some more of your marijuana-laced Marlboros.

And who, prey tell comes on?

Bobby Seay? Jason Grilli? Jose Mesa? Tim Byrdak? Zach Miner?

We have no one in our bullpen to put in.

At some point, you pull the fucker. Even if you have confidence in him - which he shouldn't, frankly - some nights you just don't have it.

While I do agree, the fact is this pen is abysmal and I am not even sold on Zumaya and Rodney coming back making it anything better then mediocre.

The loss of Jamie Walker is looking more and more painful.

At least you don't take things too seriously.

Your sarcastic wit is like the tip of a guilded silver rapier.

I know I take things too seriously in the moment. It's my nature. It has brought me much embarrassment and confict. I wish I could be more laid-back, but I guess it's just who I am. *




*That paragraph is the perfect example.

Silver rapier? I didn't know Mike Tyson ever even competed in the olympics, much less took home a second place medal.

My fantasy team is laughing all the way to the Jake Peavy led bank :D

Speaking of which, time to go off on a long tangent. There's a bit of a thought that has almost become cliche that last few years that there are #1's and then there are aces. For instance, the Royals #1 is Gil Meche because, well, there isn't anyone else that good on the team. Not to say that he hasn't pitched well this season but he's not being considered for Cooperstown, um, ever. So, the cliche holds that there are a handful of aces out there at any given time.

So I was kindof curious of who people would put on the list. Now, personally, I think you have to have a little sustained "greatness" and this is more a list of "If I were starting a team and had to pick a pitcher to anchor me for the next 3 years, based on track record, who would I pick" and I think my list reflects that. For instance, Dan Haren has pitched great this season but it's really his first and it's not even a half season whereas Carlos Zambrano, stupid fights with his catcher aside, has a good track record and, frankly, his numbers this year all but scream that he's having arm trouble so I'd be more inclined to pick Zambrano over Haren provided we find out it is arm trouble and he gets it fixed.

For me, this is as far as I have gotten, in no particular order once you get past grouping:
"Best": Santana
"Aces": Oswalt, Peavy, Zambrano
"Very Close, if not in": Webb, Halladay, Carpenter, Sabathia
"Needs Work": Zito, Colon, Willis, Escobar
"Not Yet": Lackey, Beckett
"Too Early but Could Be": Liriano, Hamels, Young
"Too Old" but Recently Were: Clemens, Schilling, Martinez, Schmidt, Johnson, Smoltz

A few notes- I guess this is more about peak value over a couple of years more than anything else. Longevity doesn't really count unless it's sustained at a very high caliber (Maddux was like that for quite a while but he hasn't been in the last couple of years, hence why he's not on the last grouping). The "Needs Work" is the toughest- it's basically guys who have been #1's for a while but never had a high enough peak to be considered an ace. There are also a ton of guys who have the potential to be in that "Too Early" group- just look at Lincecum and he's only 3 or 4 starts into his career- but I tried to put players there who have had at least a half season of great stats.

The weirdest one for me, and someone not on the list, is Tim Hudson. If I had to place him, it'd be on the "Needs Work". He had a couple of years in Oakland where he was hitting that ace range but he's since fallen back to earth and this is the first year where he's shown something of that form he used to have.

SI

you stay classy, Cubs fans

beat me to it.

dola- Allthough it was pretty funny when the announcer said " so much for travel mug day"

it reminded me of that scene ion Baseketball when Costas says" what a thing to happen on dozen egg night"

The high point of the year for Cubs fans was watching Lou go berserk today.

I'd say Halladay should definitely be in the "aces" group.

Doug Mientkiwicz got ran the f*** over in the Red Sox game as the Yankees bullpen implodes again.

I don't know what Torre sees in Scott Proctor, but anyone can see he's been getting worse and worse every game yet he's still Joe's go to guy every day.

Torre made a poor decision in walking Manny with no outs, Ortiz on 2nd, and Youkilis on deck who has been on fire all season.

In Proctor's defense, Abreu misplayed an Ortiz flyball to start the inning. Jeter bobbled a hard hit double play ball. But I think they should have brought Myers in to start the inning vs. Ortiz then go to Brian Bruney who is pitching much better than Proctor. Use Farnsworth and Mariano for the 8th and 9th unless one of those guys wasn't available, but I don't see why they wouldn't be.

Oh, and to throw more fuel on the fire, Clemens is out for two weeks with a groin pull and Kei Igawa will pitch Monday.

Wouldn't surprise me at all if Clemens retired in the next two weeks, if the Yanks keep losing.

He might as well. He's worthless with a terrible bullpen and poor defense anyway. And he probably won't get much run support either with only Jeter and Posada hitting well. Cano is hitting better, and hopefully Melky will start to hit now that he's playing everyday. Abreu, Giambi, and Mussina are hopefully gone next year so they can invest in Torri Hunter and a better bullpen.

I looked at the numbers again on some of those guys and I think Sabathia should be knocked down a group into the Zito, Colon, et al group. However, I had forgotten how young he still is- only 26 despite this being his 7th year in the majors.

Halladay really does deserve to move up. I didn't realize how good and how consistent he had been. The 2004 season threw me but I also forgot that was his injury year and it's a small sample size.

That middle group was the most interesting to go back on. Carpenter, I've never had much love for- he's had 2 really good years but he was barely mediocre before that. Oh, and did I mention he's about to miss his second season in five years? Webb definintely needs another solid year or two but he's on his way this year, not quite as good as last year but working his ERA back down again.

So, maybe dissolve that one group to avoid ambiguity and also just get rid of Santana's group, knowing full well that he's #1. So, here's the new listing with Carpenter being the hardest to categorize.

"Aces": Santana (1!), Oswalt, Peavy, Zambrano, Halladay
"Needs Work": Zito, Colon, Willis, Escobar, Carpenter
"Not Yet": Lackey, Beckett, Sabathia, Webb
"Too Early but Could Be": Liriano, Hamels, Young
"Too Old" but Recently Were: Clemens, Schilling, Martinez, Schmidt, Johnson, Smoltz

Also, a little added commentary to before, I think this really explains why fans and team expectations are different. Fans always love saying "We just need to pay $15M a year to get an ace and the team will be a contender"; that kind of sports talk fodder. That said, so rarely is that ace on the market. The last time I can even think of an "ace" in his prime on the market was Mike Mussina unless you consider all of those Clemens dalliances, which aren't even fair considering his age. It's almost always that unless you grow him, you just have to "settle" for a #1 if you're looking to buy.

SI

Whats interesting to me is the varying directions a lot of these guys are headed in and age really isn't the cause.

Santana still appears to be the same old Johan. Peavy is headed upwards and I'd like to take this opportunity to point out he was my Cy Young pick in the predictions thread :). Halladay has always amazed me with his efficiency. This is a guy that threw 266 innings in '03 and didn't rank in the top 40 in pitcher abuse points. Oswalt has maintained his ERA, but his declining K-rate and rising H/9 is troublesome. Zambrano is having a bad year and it isn't because of sample size. All you have to do is look at his arm slot and velocity and you see that something is really wrong and its not going to go away until its fixed.

Zambrano, Willis, and Oswalt were worked incredibly hard early on in their careers and they have declining peripherals. Liriano has struggled to stay healthy and thats a big reason the Giants had no problem giving him up.

Sorry to hijack your discussion, its just that pitcher volitility has always been something that's interested me.

Back on topic, I think Zito is rated a bit high, he's working on his 3rd so-so year in the last 4. I think Haren belongs somewhere on there, he's been solid the past two years (better than Zito) and outstanding this year. Also, Smoltz could easily fall under ace or "too old", he's a very tough one to call. Aaron Harang has also very quietly become one of the better pitchers in the NL and is just now in his prime.

Just a few thoughts off the top of my head.

It may only be AA baseball but this is a Major League ejection.

Nice catch by Nick Markakis tonight to rob Erick Aybar of a homer:

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x25...obs-a-home-run