As am I, Pennywise. There are two explanations that I see for this:

1.) Barkeep is a Sith
2.) The Sith figured they would wait another day for us to spar, as both Barkeep and I alluded to the fact that we were likely to vote for the other one today. If we are both Jedi, this works out nicely for them as they can move on to other targets while the rest of the people pick between us like they did between AE/Dubb yesterday.

Saldana, did we learn anything from searching Schmidty's quarters?

And, of course, I recognize that the rest of you can make assumption #3, that I'm a Sith. I'm obviously not going to make that assumption since I know my role but everyone should have that as part of their logic in assessing the situation as well.

look
at
the
lightsabers. :rolleyes:




:p

I figured Jedi, but wanted to know if there was more info like we got from Lathum, Eaglesfan, Superman=#54, etc. Without additional info, I assume he is an ordinary Jedi, nothing more and nothing less.

I think #2 is more likely although obviously there is 3.) Hoops is a Sith.

Dola, sorry didn't read down.

I'm going to hold off on voting for Barkeep initially. If anyone feels strongly about him as a Sith I'll be more than happy to listen. I did spend a lot of time looking at his posts from the first two days, but perhaps someone has a different take on them than I did. But I feel like I'm playing into the Sith hands by firing off a vote on him right off the bat.

I'm thinking the green saber means he was some type of a duke role, ouch!

1. Lathum - dead; lynched; Jedi
2. Kwhit
3. Hoopsguy
4. Grammaticus
5. TazFTW
6. EaglesFan27 - dead; murdered; Jedi
7. Tanglewood
8. Cartman
9. Kingfc22
10. Desnudo
11. Pennywisesb
12. StKelly52
13. Qwikshot
14. Barkeep49
15. Alan T - dead; murdered; Jedi
16. SnDvls
17. Ardent Enthusiast
18. Superman=#54 dead; lynched; Jedi
19. Dubb93 - dead; lynched; evil
20. JeeberD
21. SackAttack
22. McKerney
23. Schmidty - dead; murdered; Jedi

dola

Is the above post correct?

What is the significance of the green saber?

Looks correct to me, Qwik

Well, I think we have to seriously consider hoops, barkeep, and myself at this point. Power players as I like to call it.

There's only one reason I can think of as to why all three of us are alive. The Sith among the three of us, and I believe there is one, wants to keep the heat off of him by keeping the other two around.

As a bad guy, I know I want to take out key players early and let the not so experienced players or vocal players have a shot to win the game for us. Three games ago, as a bad guy with dubb, we did this well. Despite being typically vocal "power" players, neither of us were really considered until the end.

I think the Sith between hoops and barkeep recognize this and realize that was a learning experience for some.

For example, let's say on day 1 night action I died. Day 2 night action hoops dies. The light shines squarely on barkeep. This could be reversed...Day 2 night action barkeep dies. Hoops looks bad, really bad...and he should, he's probably the Sith in this case.

I submit the only reason the three of us are alive is because one of those two are Sith. The last game in which all three of us were on the good side we won the game based of an increasing circle of trust. I feel one of the reasons we were around for so long was a relatively inexperienced group of wolves in that game. I highly doubt that's the case in this game. I think someone with a lot of experience is calling the shots.

I also have a feeling on one other person that voted for me, a strong feeling that I'll have to review posts for. A very strong feeling that this person is a Sith. However, if I don't feel I can prove it, I won't post it unless it appears I'm about to be lynched.

The green lightsaber in KOTOR signified Jedi Consular – Knowledge and Negotiation. The best fit I can make is a Duke type role. That is also what Hoops had posted as his guess at green.

Hmm. A review of this person's posts does make me question him. Review his posts, and you'll find next to nothing of value. He comes in "finally" to vote me out near the end of the day, and probably thought he had me. I don't believe he's even posted since that vote, one way or the other...yet he has found time to post elsewhere. I'm still concerned about the hoops/barkeep...but I'm going this way. Please take the time to look at Taz.

Vote Taz

I'm going to look back, but I think we're still far aways from panic yet. While I mourn the passing of our Jedi brethren, I'm amazed that we still have very little in substance.

I think that each of us really need to elaborate on our picks before 9:30 tonight. The short pick just isn't going to do it. The problem with these games is that there is very little in the clue department.

So far we have 3 in the lead with Hoops, Ardent, and Bar. Everyone is leaning on how the vet players have lasted so long, well, they are vets for a reason. I wonder if their seer was able to first hit Eagle and set up the two for one kill. Their seer would be methodically hitting our better hidden players...I'm still awaiting some guidance from our seer, I'm sure if I read through the past conversations something, /something/ would by now be hinting someone who is solidly good (dead Jedi don't count).

This is just a waiting game sometimes until the seer reveals themself and points out one of the baddies.

Does everyone feel from the descriptions that the same Sith has made all night kills so far?

Good points. I just hope our seer is using their skill wisely. I'm almost positive the reason both hoops and barkeep are around is because one of them is a Sith and is keeping the other around to cause confusion. AE's play towards Dubb has moved him up my trust list so at this point I'm probably leaning towards either a hoops vote or a barkeep vote.

The thought has definately crossed my mind. The descriptions all seem to be of the same figure.

That's really not good if that's the case. With still no sign of the seer, we have to hope it's self-preservation, and not that the Sith already got him.

I've been doing some thinking on the seer, and I'm wondering how useful the role is for us this time.

I remember a mafia game where there was a cursed - the Don's Son, I believe he was called - who showed up on seer scans as a villager until the conversion. Not knowing who the seer is (if there IS a seer at this point), I have to wonder if dubb a) was scanned, and b) if he was, if he showed up as villager or Sith sympathizer.

If he showed up as a villager, and if saldana is sticking to the canonical Sith-and-apprentice model, it's going to be tough to root the Sith out with a seer.

Tough enough that I hope there are more than two Sith, and that we have a seer. Although, numbers are both our enemy and our friend at this point. More Sith would make it easier for our seer to find them, but it would also put the Sith closer to victory. Catch-22.

True enough, but AE's also making a play towards Taz right now.

What does that mean for the hoops/barkeep showdown?

No, hoops is making a play towards Taz

I'm sorry. I understand that my vision isn't what I wish it were, but if hoops is leading the charge, ardent is certainly following.

Yes, I agree with Gram and Penny that the same figure is doing the killing each night. Based on the movies, different Jedi/Sith all have their own different styles. And each night we have seen a warrior with two blades - I would be very surprised if Saldana is just having every Sith fight with two weapons.

So what do we take from the idea that the Sith have the same guy doing the killing each night? Are the other Sith (one or more) also taking some other kind of night action? Is only one Sith out of the faction capable of killing during night actions?

Also, I am dying to know if the Sith knew about Dubb. Not that I'm expecting anyone to have a definitive answer on this, but it is hard to know how much value there was in the voting patterns from yesterday without knowing:
1.) Is AE a Sith (I don't think so at this point)
2.) Did the Sith know about Dubb and/or did Dubb know about the Sith?

Based on Dubb's votes for Lathum/Lathum/Ardent I am leaning towards him knowing the identities of the Sith.

Finally, what stock do we place in the people who did not vote yesterday? Pennywiseb, Kingfc22, and Stkelly? If they were Sith, and they knew about Dubb, they would have had a lot of incentive to get their votes in before the deadline. Is it wrong that I'm giving these guys a tad more trust for missing a vote? Probably, but ...

I'm positive that I'm not leading a play towards Taz. That is Ardent in Post #815, which is the only vote on the record so far today.

Yes, I was wrong, it was AE indicating a look at Taz.

Also Eaglesfan in the bonded role had a Emerald green lightsaber blade. I guess we do not know what color Alan had, but probably green

doa, Sack you seemed to know a bit about the bonded thing. What do you think all of this means?

Gramm, everything I know about the Force Bond comes from playing KOTOR II, and what they had to say about it.

As far as "all of this," to what specifically are you referring? The presence of the vets? The similar silhouette making the night kills? The indigestion I got from last night's pizza rolls?

Assuming there is a seer in this game then I would have expected him to scan either me or Barkeep by now, if not both of us.

I generally agree with the logic that the Sith are leaving Barkeep and me around for a reason, although I'm not sure that it is to provide cover.

Ardent - left because he was nearly lynched last night, hope that this would be picked up today

Hoops/Barkeep - 2nd day in a row promising a showdown between the two

Now if we are all still around two days from now I'll be considerably more skeptical. But I'm not yet at the point where I want to lynch a good player because the Sith didn't lynch that good player.

Oh. I'm guessing this is what you meant by "all of this."

A Jedi's lightsaber color can indicate the general path he follows within the Force, but I doubt very much if the colors are specific to their roles.

I think with the traditional colors, saldana is pointing us in a general direction, but I think the specific lack of roles may be designed to obfuscate the picture for the Sith remaining. They won't know who they've killed, beyond that the person is Jedi, except in extenuating circumstances, such as the EaglesFan27/AlanT kill.

Schmidty's blade may indicate that he was the duke or the seer.

It may be saldana having a blast with mind games.

That my friend is the million dollar question.

I would hope it means we'll take a chance on Taz, and see if the Sith let one of the three of us live another night.

Regardless, one of the three of us is likely Sith.

Well, Taz is definately a risk at this point. You moved up my trust list, so out of you three, AE, Barkeep, and Hoops, I'm pretty sure its a 50-50 chance of hitting a sith between the latter two.

OK, think we are moving far enough in the game to start publishing some form of trust list. Because I'm at least starting to see some differentiation in terms of what I'm viewing:

Absolute Trust:
me and the dead Jedi

High Trust:
none

Medium Trust:
none

Low Trust:
Ardent (kept his vote on himself towards the end, was opposed by a non-Jedi)
mckerney (deciding vote last night, would be higher if we knew relationship between Dubb/Sith)

Marginal Trust:
Kingfc22, Pennywiseb, Stkelly (no votes in race involving a non-Jedi)

No Trust:
Anyone not explicitly listed here

Distrust:
Barkeep - mostly paranoia, coupled with him targeting me repeatedly

Penny, if you think it is 50/50 then you should cast a vote for me or Barkeep. Not that I'm wild about that idea, because it places me at risk, but a 50% chance is significantly better than our odds on a random player.

I posted my thoughts on this back in Post #829. Suffice it to say, I'm a long way from 50% with Ardent (among my most trusted at the moment, despite voting for him yesterday) and Mckerney. And I'm not nearly 50% on Barkeep (maybe 33%) even though that is where I would go with my vote if I had to cast it now.

I'm going to bring up my Qwikshot concerns again. I've already laid out in previous posts my reason for voting for him.

I just seems really strange to me that after getting a lot of votes the first two days, I was the only one to vote on him yesterday, and there was almost no discussion on him prior to yesterday's vote. The lack of reponses to my questions about why the discussion fell to almost zero were not answered. Is this because the other Siths now know that he is a Sith as well?

My problem with this whole scenario is we are letting it play out perfectly. So we lynch either Hoops or Barkeep tonight. FWIW, the probability of getting a Sith is only 50/50 if one is a definitely a Sith. Include the 3rd scenario where both are Jedi and the probability of us getting a Sith drops.

If whoever is chosen turns out to be Jedi, where does that leave us? The next guy goes tomorrow. You couldn't ask for a better scenario if you're Sith. I feel sort of over the barrel here since I don't see any other people that are begging to be lynched.

Sack, yes I meant what did you think about Scmidty having a green blade means along with eaglesfan. I was thinking the bonded thing may apply here as well.

Hoops, I am concerned that we may have lost our seer with Lathum. He spoke of being the strongest force user and he did not change the vote. I know his blade was pink and not yellow. If he was not the seer, he was something.

Saldana, what color were Taz and Tangle’s blade. They engaged Lathum, but you did not describe the color of their blade. Also, did we search Lathum’s room? If so, what did we find?

Well, this stinks. I hate dying so unceremoniously. Good luck guys.

(Good touch with the profanity stuff, saldana :D )

Cartman, the only thing that has changed on my thoughts on Qwik from Day 2 (when I voted for him) to Day 4 is this:

- we have had two more days to get scans from the seer
- we have two more days of voting records to analyze
- we have several hundred more posts from people to look at in terms of determining intent

What I thought was a solid strategy on Day 2 (based on limited info) is a little less convincing for me now with each passing day. Also, one of the people I was looking to clear/condemn with Qwikshot was Ardent (along with Gram and Sack) and I feel better about Ardent now than I did then. Both based on results yesterday and a return to normal posting behavior by him after a bizarre first two days.

Finally, in werewolf games the wolves almost always know who their fellow wolves are from the outset. So I don't think that if he was Sith on Day 2 that it was unknown to the other Sith.

That is my response to the question. I still find it odd that he twice built up big leads only to see them disappear and that we saw Jedi die on those days. But I feel like we should have better options that voting for Qwik to learn about other people by now. Doesn't mean we do, but I'm instinctively and stubbornly reacting that way.

Gram, for Post #838 remember that Taz and Tangle were randomly selected (based on people that voted for him) to engage Lathum. I suspect the lightsaber color was not given because that would be unfair information for us to have on those two.

Gram, I had considered that possibility as well but didn't mention it on the board because I didn't want to embolden the Sith if they had not thought of this for themselves. The worst thing about it is that he wasn't around at the deadline - if he was the seer then he could have posted as such to save himself (at least from that lynching) and cleared someone while revealing his Night 1 (and possibly Night 0, depending on game mechanics) scans.

Also, he sounded disappointed to be out of the game, which I certainly would be if I was the Seer on Day 2 and was lynched by my fellow villagers while away from the computer.

AE, in regards to Taz's vote for you, he did cast it after you told him to do so (Post #647). I agree that I would like to see more posting for him so we have more to evaluate with, but he is never a prolific poster in WW games. Is this a straight feel vote or is there something else that I'm missing?

Before we go off on a tangent again...I'm wondering if we should have a showdown between you, Hoops and barkeep.

Right now, of the three, I'm going Barkeep as the most suspicious.

If we go off on a tangent with Taz I think we are going to further divide up and splinter the vote.

Does this seem more logical, or are you deadset in having Taz in your sights?

Interesting that we've moved almost completely away from Qwik being the lynch target, which was initially the bone of contention between hoops and barkeep, if memory serves.

Way I'm reading it, there's one of two possibilities there.

1) Qwik is Jedi, the masses have more or less tacitly accepted that, and have shifted their attentions accordingly.

2) Qwik is Sith, and so is some combination of ardent, hoops, and Barkeep, and the current dustup is designed to draw attention away from Qwik. For this to work, Qwik would have to be the more powerful Sith, or have a materially more valuable role. Sort of a "sacrificial lamb" scenario.

This is kinda where I'm at too.

Here is an idea I've had. I don't have awhole lot of evidence to back it up, so maybe its just me being paranoid, but I think it might be good to get it out there. If I was Sith, one of my first priorities would be to takeout Hoops. Now, the sith could do this by either killing him outright, or trying to get the masses to lynch him (thus not wasting a kill on him) and start to target other individuals. Now, Barkeep kinda came out charging towards Hoops pretty aggressively, seemingly almost out of nowhere, trying to cast suspicion on hoops. He essentially was trying to make it a barkeep v. hoops standoff. Does anyone else get the feeling that his play was alittle suspicious?

Now, I could be wrong and maybe he just pegged Hoops. Or maybe neither is a sith and they are needlessly paranoid towards eachother.

I will say this, the Sith have been doing a good job keeping me confused at this point.

I'm going back to look at the voting records ... took me a few minutes to put these together since they are on the home PC. Here is the information from the first three days, now including the people who did not vote:

Day 1
Alan T - Lathum (142)
Qwik - Qwik (231), Barkeep (159), Eagles (170), Penny (172), Cartman (179)
Super - SnDvls (167), Kwhit (206), Taz (222), Gram (244), Sack (248), Ardent (250)
Eagles - Hoops (174), Jeeber (208)
Schmidty - Desnudo (180), Ardent (209)
Lathum - Dubb (195), Alan T (225)
StKelly - King (223)
Dubb - Mckerney (229)
Barkeep - Stkelly (240)

Not Voted: Tanglewood, Superman=#54

Day 2
Qwik - Hoops (318), Cartman (327), mckerney (358), SnDvls (366), Schmidty (367), kingfc (391)
Lathum - Barkeep (326), Penny (342), Desnudo (359), Sack (361), Dubb (368), Jeeber (370), Grammaticus (375), KWhit (397), Tanglewood (401), Taz (424), Stkelly (429), Ardent (430)
Tanglewood - Lathum (334)

Not Voted: Qwikshot

Day 3:
Ardent - Dubb (532), Hoops (550), KWhit (611), Tanglewood (620), Ardent (621), Taz (653), Barkeep (686)
Dubb - Schmidty (553), Sack (556), Jeeber (578), Desnudo (583), Gram (586), Qwik (588), SnDvls (610), mckerney (687)
Qwikshot - Cartman (594)

Not Voted: King, Penny, StKelly

Here is what I think is the most likely scenario: AE, Barkeep and Hoops are all Jedi. Looking at what's happening now and what happened yesterday, why bother knocking any of them off since they seem to be perfectly willing to do it to each other. Also lost in all this discussion around the three of them is any sort of examination of the other, quieter players. If you look back through thread a large chunk of the discussion is centered on these three players with a little Qwik sprinkled in.

Right now I'm leaning towards Taz. Although I need to reread some things before putting my vote there.

Just thought I'd point this post out.

Voting records, by player. Also, I had Schmidty's vote for Day 1 incorrect in the above post and AE double-booked. AE voted for Superman (250) and Schmidty voted for AE (214).




1. Lathum (dead jedi) - Alan T, Tanglewood
2. Kwhit - Superman, Lathum, Ardent
3. Hoopsguy - Eaglesfan, Qwikshot, Ardent
4. Grammaticus - Superman, Lathum, Dubb
5. TazFTW - Superman, Lathum, Ardent
6. EaglesFan27 (dead jedi) - Qwikshot
7. Tanglewood - No vote, Lathum, Ardent
8. Cartman - Qwik, Qwik, Qwik
9. Kingfc22 - Stkelly, Qwik, No vote
10. Desnudo - Schmidty, Lathum, Dubb
11. Pennywisesb - Qwik, Lathum, No vote
12. StKelly52 - Barkeep, Lathum, No vote
13. Qwikshot - Qwik, No vote, Dubb
14. Barkeep49 - Qwik, Lathum, Ardent
15. Alan T (dead jedi) - Lathum
16. SnDvls - Superman, Qwikshot, Dubb
17. Ardent Enthusiast - Superman, Lathum, Ardent
18. Superman=#54 (dead jedi) - No vote
19. Dubb93 (dead non-jedi) - Lathum, Lathum, Ardent
20. JeeberD - Eagles, Lathum, Dubb
21. SackAttack - Superman, Lathum, Dubb
22. McKerney - Dubb, Qwik, Dubb
23. Schmidty (dead jedi) - Ardent, Qwik, Dubb

Taz voting record: Jedi, Jedi, Unknown.

Not good, but there are a lot of lousy voting records since we have had two horse races every day and 5 of the 6 dead are Jedi.

Best voting records so far:
22. Mckerney - Dubb, Qwik, Dubb
Two votes for Dubb (first was supposedly random) and an unknown

8. Cartman - Qwik, Qwik, Qwik
No votes for known Jedi

9. Kingfc - Stkelly, Qwik, no vote
No votes for known Jedi, one no vote

13. Qwikshot - Qwik, no vote, Dubb
A no vote, an unknown (vote for self) and Dubb.


I didn't see anyone who has voted for three dead Jedi - would be hard to have done with Dubb going down yesterday. Here are the ones who have voted for two dead:
2. KWhit - Superman, Lathum, Ardent
4. Gram - Super, Lathum, Dubb
5. Taz - Super, Lathum, Ardent
10. Desnudo - Schmidty, Lathum, Dubb
17. Ardent - Super, Lathum, Ardent
20. Jeeber - Eagles, Lathum, Dubb
21. Sack - Super, Lathum, Dubb

With the information that we have right now I think the worst voting record would be two dead Jedi and Ardent (given that all but Cartman voted Dubb/Ardent).

Here are the people with that profile:
2. KWhit - Superman, Lathum, Ardent
5. TazFTW - Superman, Lathum, Ardent
17. Ardent - Superman, Lathum, Ardent

Given that Ardent voted for himself, the only way I see that making sense is if they have the same role, were able to PM, and agreed that he would lay down at the end to protect Dubb. Dubb walks away trusted when Ardent shows up as evil character.

I strongly suspect I'm thinking too hard for this scenario, which leaves me with the other two candidates: the much discussed Taz and KWhit.

Wow Hoops, you never cease to amaze me with your analysis.

Desnudo has me seriously doubting my suspicions at this point so I think I'll lay off the Hoops V. Barkeep vote.

I agree that the worst voting record would probably be 2 dead Jedis plus Ardent. I think with AE being one of the main contributors to Dubb going down, that this voting pattern is almost akin to voting for 3 Jedis. My vote today will probably be between TazFTW and KWhit. I want to hear their sides before voting though.

Ok, today is the first time I have actually read this thread. Sorry for not contributing earlier. Hoops I agree with your analysis so far. I think Taz or KWhit is likely to be a Sith.

:eek:

Sorry KWhit, I have no evidence as to whether you are a Sith or not, but it looks like it is being arranged to be me vs you.

VOTE KWhit

I think voting records are valuable and a good resource to use. I do not think assessing by who voted for the most “known” jedi versus bad guys pans out though. At least not by itself. Without a circle of trust or something else to support it is just one tool.

The only people that really know who is good and who is bad at the start are Sith. Then as the game progresses, some specialty roles can start to hit on who is good and bad. Until you know who they are and then review their record, it is tough. I would say a Sith has the best chance to have a cleaner record at this point, as they know who to go for and who not.

Maybe some of them laid off the horses and I’m thinking they spread votes around as well. I don’t buy the who voted for the most confirmed Jedi routine. Hitting Taz because he lays low may be a good reason, but not for me at this point. I’m willing to bet one of the two between Hoops and Barkeep are Sith. I am feeling pretty good about Ardent, I’m in the middle or have no read on Barkeep. Hoops seems to be the most suspicious. I think he has made a lot of posts that are circular in their logic and yield little, but sound like a lot of input. Much like Ardent’s BS post in the HP game where he said he did hours of research and posted a bunch of re-paste’s and said Coder was shaky or something like that. So, I will go with my vote

VOTE HOOPS

About to sign off and I’m not sure when I will be back on, so I want to get my vote in. If I get back and see something else developing I will try to commit my vote to a horse in the race.

Anyone think it funny that for all the posting that Jeebs does, that he's been really quiet in this thread?

I'm going to lay off Hoops vs Ardent vs Barkeep.

I think my voting record speaks for itself, I may not be the most sane player, but I at least tried hard not to implicate or kill a Jedi (besides sacrificing myself).

so I'm going with AE's vote...but should Taz be innocent, I will be the first to be voting for AE.

Vote Taz

Trust: Gramm

Prepare to vote AE then.

I'm gonna stick with the vote I've had all along.

Vote: Qwikshot

I think there might have been more to schmidty then has been said so far. I get this from the line


Now I thought long and hard about this post and I'm guessing the Sith did too. It clearly could be innocent, in that we all started this journey as Jedi, but I'm guessing it was a disguised message. I think Schmidty was saying that Dubb was converted during the course of our game.

I have to go back and really read what has been said against Taz, but I'd just like to say that Hoops has made more lists and done zero real actions today. Meaningless lists are once again the hallmark of wolves...

Well, between Taz and KWhit, I'm going to cast my vote to KWhit. Usually he's a good contributor in these WW games but he's played this one pretty low key (compared to past games) which seems like a technique a wolf could possibly employ to stay under the radar. His voting record is pretty bad as well. So I'm gonna
Vote KWhit

Barkeep, I really think I've made enough excuses for not voting for you up until now.

If you are a Jedi, then I really think you have have allowed yourself to be badly misdirected and brought this one on yourself.

VOTE BARKEEP49

I don't believe ardent is Sith. I don't believe Qwikshot is either, at this point. They've both had questionable moments, but I don't see the percentage in their plays if they're Sith, as I've seen too many instances in the past where the self-vote was a quick way to get lynched.

The fact that they're both voting for Taz, combined with Taz's voting record, makes me think they might be on to something.

Vote TazFTW

Hoops I expected an opus. I didn't even get a stanza. When I voted for you I gave examples. I would ask for the same.

Agreed.

VOTE QWIKSHOT

I feel myself siding with Barkeep in the argument to this point if I had to choose between the two. The question to me is, is Hoops suspicious enough to earn a vote or are there better candidates out there? As was mentioned, where happened to Jeeber?

Well Qwik has become more and more suspicous to me and I am very glad to see this as the movement rather then myself or taz; perhaps even Hoops. I still think Qwik is a Jedi, but I agree that all too much attention has been paid to 4 of us when there is a larger Sith community to be worried about.

God my grammar has gone to hell since I started playing this game.

Further I have played a game where we left "senior" players alone and went for quieter ones. That game has scary parallels in terms of how little danger the wolves ever faced. I think looking at the quiet ones, such as king who hasn't read the thread might be the way to go.

I think I'm going to go look at king's posts. If he seems well informed despite never having read the thread it seems like we should be looking at him as a Sith.

But one thing that's been bothering me: Ardent should not be cleared. As I read it, it's possible that Dubb knew who the Sith were, but it's equally as likely that he did not and was really trying to acomplish some other mean, even perhaps getting lynched himself, by going after Ardent. And even if dubb did know who the sith were I can ENTIRELY see him pulling a fast one by either getting himself or ardent cleared.

I want to go in a different direction but there have been several games where two wolves/evils have been on the block and when one gets killed and found it, it gives too much leeway to the other. The most famous example I can think of is when Ardent duked it away from one werewolf to another and was declared a hero in the Spawn game.

Sure, if you want more logic behind it then here you go. Some of these I believe more than others, but these are notes that I have from earlier and have modified since you asked the question:

1.) You have pressed against me on Day 2, Day 3, Day 4
2.) You vote for Qwikshot on Day 1, then go after me for doing the same thing on Day 2 when there were more compelling reasons to do so at that time
3.) You call me out for putting some thought into the game (lists) rather than just following a herd, saying that this is 'wolflike'
4.) I can reach on the "don't scan me" comment from earlier, but never really wanted to because I think it is a neutral comment
5.) You were the first-mover on Lathum on Day 1 (known Jedi, Post #144), even though your vote didn't end there. You moved it to Qwik when he self-voted, making it an easy excuse if he was lynched as a Jedi.
6.) You never put in a post in the role-call indicating you were a Jedi.
7.) You have attacked me for suggesting that the game rules might actually follow Star Wars rules in terms of the number of opponents we would be facing, saying that Saldana suggested this would be a 'simple game'
8.) Post #163 is the first time you suggest your role, only it isn't Jedi. It is that you are not Sith. Hmm, Dubb technically was not Sith
9.) You ask me to do post summaries (#224) and then attack me for posting lists
10.) You suggest that you are much better at finding innocents than guilty, but then decide to jeopardize me (who I consider a valuable asset to the Jedi) with your attacks over the last 3 days.
11.) Earlier in the thread both Barkeep and Stkelly have expressed concern about you. Those are two of the names on my initial trust list from today (yes, another list)
12.) Your posts about voting records discouraging that line of thought on Day 3 and then coming in now after being gone all day when the topic is once again being discussed. It seems like you are going out of your way to discourage this train of thought even though several others think that this is a logical way to approach the game.
13.) Post #494 you say that you think a blessed came into play when the description read much more like the bodyguard.
14.) I didn't think your list of reasons for me in Post #511 was well thought-out. Which makes sense when you have to fabricate reasons for me as a Sith. Still, with as much as I post I would expect a little better effort.
15.) You never, ever answer my questions about the motivations of a Sith to be a late-voter in the Qwikshot race (Post #522, although I raised this point multiple times on Day 2 as well)

Wasnt ardent the captain, and we killed him after he did duke it to a villager...and he turned up good...??

Vote count as of Post #872:
Taz - Ardent (815), Qwikshot (857), SackAttack (864)
KWhit - Taz (855), Pennywiseb (862)
Hoopsguy - Grammaticus (856)
Qwikshot - Cartman (860), mckerney (866)
Barkeep - Hoopsguy (863)

I am a Jedi. I am not a sith. I am not an auxulliary evil. I am a Jedi and only a Jedi. Frankly I think stating that is one of the most over rated things in all of werewolf. Without some sort of role that can test it, why even go through the motion? I tried to use the threat of an empath in the Demons and Elementals game and it came up with Taz, a good guy. I don't see what else can be done with that. Any other statements you would like me to make regarding my complete and total innocence I would be happy to do.

Let me look at some of your other posts, such as my supposed failure to answer questions in 522 before further responding

No Ardent changed it again the following night and it came up an innocent and then people decided to kill ardent.

First let me express my frustration with the Maximum Football thread (of which I still have 18 pages to read) with my ability to quickly find WW related posts.

So king has contributed nothing of substance the whole game. This is bad if only because we get zero information from him; sort of like how people vote for no shows on D1.

I remember it differently...oh well

Self Preservation.

UNVOTE KWHIT
VOTE QWIKSHOT

I think it's likely no more than one Sith is part of the quiet group. The rest are either part of the vocals or the ones posting just enough for people to be aware of them. So yes, we shouldn't just go down the path of eliminating quiet ones.

Hoops I ignored your question of

Because it became irrelevant to where I eventually went with looking at voting patterns as an indication of wolfishness. I think it's entirely possible for wolfs to do just about anything on D1 as people are more willing to grant a flier on that one then on any other day. Some of the early switches might have thought they were going to be safe voting for someone who would finish in 2nd only to have that person then go on and win.

Barkeep, I think the role call stuff is generally junk as well. If I believed all of the reasons that are listed there, I would have voted for you yesterday. As I've stated a few times, I am not close to convinced that you are Sith. But with that in mind, why do you insist on coming after me if you are anything but? If there is a seer out there they would have looked at me by now at your insistence in these threads and because of a general fear of the "vet player". So for you to really think that I'm Sith must mean that you think Lathum was the seer and is now lost to us?

Ok let's look at them one by one.
I pressed against you Night 2, Day 3, and Day 4. You were not really on my bad guy radar until late Day 2. Anyhow this is fair enough and I find no true fault with you holding it against me. Though I would point out that I always do things for a reason as a wolf and if I'm going bold against you what is my alterior motive?

I think there were far more compelling reasons not to as well. It's entirely fair to criticise someone for voting the way you did on a different day. Information changes, the game is a different place. I think this is weak.
I have no problem with you putting thought into the game. Desnudo, for instance, is clearly putitng thought into this game. But it's your failure of the lists to either have any definitive conclusions, or for you to act on them, that I am criticising. Heck except your personal trust list I haven't even appeared on them and yet there you are voting for me.
It's not a neutral comment. It's a comment saying the seer shouldn't waste his time on me, but I don't really quibble with this analysis either.
I thought Lathum was suspicous from the get go. Hence I returned to my #1 suspect on Day 2. Obviously I wasn't the only one to find his suspicious as he got lynched. I was wrong about him no question about it.
Answered earlier. Truly a trumped up charge if there ever was one.
I take the GM at his word; he says a simple game, so I'm not going to go looking for complex Sith conversion mechanisms.
See 7. Way to make 1 trumped up charge into two things on your list. :rolleyes:
That was acutally a probe request because I know for a fact that you've slanted those lists in the past to great success; your reaction was a neutral one in my book.
Still don't think you seem overwhelmingly Jedish. Since this is basically an assertion that you are Jedi I have no real response, nor could there be one.
Everyone's name gets tossed about as suspicious by someone. But I understand this at least.
If you're talking about Days 1 and 2 voting for villagers of being an indicator of being a wolf it doesn't matter if others feel it's logical to me when I have statistical evidence. What is intutive is not always correct and so I do the best I can to base what I can in games on facts. I stand by my study though I do not believe I have specifically called out any for looking at those. I disagree but do understand it's initutive, but apparently incorrect, appeal.
Yes because only 1 person was being faught. If it was the BG a second person could have been involved in the description. I am not the only one who thought that, I believe Desnudo did as well.
I said it was a gut level feeling. I also didn't pad my list with nonsense :)
Done now.

So taking a look at the list I see several stretches with only a couple of solid charges. I hope my response mitigates your concern.

Enitrely possible Lathum was the seer. I also suggest Schmidty as a seer. Could also be a quiet one. Frankly we'll never really know who the seer is 100% until after the game which flat out sucks for us.

So I am going to be secretly rooting for Qwik to be lynched, but I personally refuse to vote for someone who I believe to be a Jedi. Therefore with only one other viable target today I

Vote Taz

I will be gone until after lynch.

I'm swallowed in work and research papers!!! GAHH!!

I'm seriously considering paying some place to write that 10 page paper on the gas/affect on industry thing. I can't find much on the topic, and it's seriously stressing me out.

That would leave me with two other assignments and the autobiography.

I'm going to go over to the Warren Newport Public Library, which I hear is a good one for the area, and buy the research librarian lunch if she proves helpful. If she doesn't, I'll buy myself lunch and a paper I think. :(

I'm curious if someone ever does read a response like this and says, "Wow, what was I thinking? I was way wrong about him".

That said, I'm still trying to come up with reasons to keep you around.

UNVOTE BARKEEP49

I'm out for a little while, but will get my vote in sufficiently before deadline.

Dola - I had not seen that you voted Taz when I revoked the vote, for whatever that is worth.

Hoops, why did you setup a Kwik / Taz showdown, then vote for Barkeep?

I'm assuming you wrote this in response to Barkeep's in post #865. But I do not understand this one. If you are writing it to Barkeep and you are saying he is on your trust list and he expressed concern about himself, this does not make sense. Also, Barkeep answers this in another post and does not say anything about it being his name on your secret trust list or himself expressing concern over himself, Huh?

Probably just a typo is my guess.

This is Barkeep in post 882.

Everyone's name gets tossed about as suspicious by someone. But I understand this at least.


What, how do you understand this at least?

So, it is a typo and Barkeep in a detailed reply post does not recognize it and says he understands that the most??

dola, then hoops votes barkeep after setting up a duel between Taz and kwhit, only to unvote him after that exchange. They are probably both Sith, screwing with us.

Your guess is as good as mine, man.

I'm just saying, with Barkeep on the brain, it might've just been a brainfart. I'm sure Hoops will set us straight when he gets back from wherever it is he went.

Most Trusted: Gram

Huh...

Well if you guys think I'm not a Jedi, so be it.

Unvote Taz
Vote Qwikshot

I doubt you'll be sorry when I'm gone, I am just a regular Jedi...but so be it.

May the Force be with you all.

Sorry, been at work all day and have been trying to get caught up while fighting with the finacee' because I'm on the computer instead of talking about wedding stuff with her.

Gonna go with mckerney and cartman, Qwik has become teflon too suddenly...

Vote Qwik

It was Ardent, not Barkeep, that I meant in Point #11.

I can assure you that I'm not playing some game with Barkeep to screw with you guys. I fired out the vote on Barkeep because I was frustrated that he continued to throw me under the microscope. The list I posted was something that I had largely compiled over the weekend, but even though I took those notes I had not convinced myself that he was a Sith. Just that he had more posts that I could evaluate than many of the other players.

And I don't want to vote for someone that I don't believe is the most likely to be a Sith, even if he has antagonized me for three days now.

I'm going to have to read point 11 then.

Gram, given that I have yet to back the guy who ends up getting lynched, me setting up someone in a duel ought to be a reason for them to jump for joy :)

Just to answer the question directly, even though I alluded to it in the last post, I was going to cast my vote for one of those two guys (Taz/KWhit) after setting it up in Post #351. I hopped in the car to drive home while I figured out where I wanted to go with this and then the fire up the PC to see Post #861 from Barkeep where he says I'm again being a wolf. I was frustrated and voted on that. Which is not how I normally play the game.

After cooling down a little bit, I decided that I would rather try to get a Sith tonight than vote angry. So I unvoted Barkeep.

I worry a little more about KWhit than Taz because he seems to be deviating more from his usual game than Taz. I thought KWhit played a terrific game in the Treasure Hunter game, but if he is a Jedi here then we are not getting his "A" game. So I'll cast a vote for the guy who feels more "off" to me instead of following the guy I am leaning towards trusting in Ardent.

VOTE KWHIT