I think he should get a calendar year. Colin Campbell needs to set a precedent for actions which negatively reflect the entire sport. As I stated previously, this is the kind of thing which makes it on the nightly news, the same news stations which often do not even show highlights from NHL games on a regular basis. Bertuzzi's actions are embarassing to hockey fans everywhere. The ball's in Campbell's court, but anything less than the rest of the season and at least the entire playoffs will be an incredible disappointment for me because I know the league will never have the guts to make a guy sit out a whole year*. Additionally, I think Bertuzzi should be criminally prosecuted as well.

edit- *besides McSorely because Bertuzzi is a "star" player and I doubt the league is willing to lose him for that long, despite my belief that they should suspend him regardless of his "stardom"

well, the entire sport is going to get "suspended" for a calendar year, so i guess they may as well knock him out just for playoffs at this rate

:eek:

I don't think he should be suspended for a year, or criminally prosecuted... if Moore wasn't punished for a hit that resulted in a concussion, then how can Bertuzzi be suspended for a year? What Bertuzzi did was horrible, but the NHL should've punished Moore for a good number of games as well.

Well then we respectfully disagree, sir. Moore's hit did result in a concussion, but he was not penalized on the play and the tape went to the league and Campbell did not act on the hit because he did not deem it to be a dirty hit. There's a big difference between hurting a guy with a hit (intentional or otherwise, although Moore had his day in court and Campbell opted not to suspend him because it was a clean hit) and sucker-punching a guy from behind. One is an accident, the other cowardace.

Nope. Not so much as a two minute minor for roughing. It was a "clean" hit by all accounts. Just caught Naslund with his head down.

I hope Moore is ok. If he smashed his face and requires surgery, his career could be in jeopardy. Look what happened to Kevin Stevens. His face got smashed and just like that, he went from a 50 goal/200 PIM power-forward extrodinare on a Stanley Cup winning team to a poor journeyman forward who spent his off-nights smoking crack with hookers in East St. Louis.

Moore's hit was clean.
If that hit was against a 3rd line winger, no one cares. But because Moore didn't hold up against one of the game's elite, the Canucks cry about it. Sami Salo in last night's game hit Alex Tanguay on a very similar play - you see hits like that in almost every game.

Kevin Stevens is the first thing I thought of when this happened.

My "sources" (I do have sources, dammit) say DeVriest to Ottawa, although it's not being reported yet.

DeVries for Karel Rachunek and Alexandre Giroux

After watching it myself, I don't think what Bertuzzi did is as bad as everyone seems to be saying. He wanted to fight Moore, chased him all over the ice, Moore wouldn't do it (cuz of course Bert would slaughter him). So in frustration Bertuzzi hit him anyways. There is no way Bertuzzi intended for everything after to happen, just as Moore didn't intend for Naslund to be so hurt when he hit him.

Bert should be suspended for the sucker punch, but no way should he get anything close to what McSorely got. I'd say 10 games, and only because he is a past offender.

Sportsnet is reporting that Bertuzzi broke Moore's neck.

My god...

So stalking someone down the ice and sucker-punching them from behind, then slamming their face into the ice after tackling them is only worth ten games, and then only because Bertuzzi's a repeat offender? You're kidding, right? :rolleyes:

Ah ha! Samifan24 is Maple Leafs' source! The truth has been revealed!

I thought Rachunek was very promising. DeVries is overrated and overpayed.

It looked like the ice broke his neck, but regardless...ick.

Rachunek is terrible. He's a complete mess, a giveaway waiting to happen. He's still young, so there's "upside", but right now he's just a soft, lousy defenceman.

Morris hasn't been terrible, but he hasn't quite turned into the player they thought he would be when they gave up Chris Drury for him. I think it's less a matter of wanting to get rid of Morris (like the Skoula trade) than it is about Lacroix using Morris to get a player (Gratton) he needed. John-Michael Liles had been eating up more and more of Morris's ice time on the power play, and with the acquisition of guys like Sauer and Boughner, Morris was essentially expendable.

Morris is only 25, and this does look like a nice, nice trade for Phoenix.

But the thing about Pierre Lacroix is this - he doesn't micromanage each individual trade to get the best deal; he is always looking at the big picture. So, he has to give up more than he wants to get Gratton, but he gets Vannanen also. Then he pulls off a trade for Salo which makes him look like a genius. He traded Radim Vrbata last year to get Bates SUCKY Battaglia...but then turned Battaglia into Steve Konowalchuk this year...as good a trade as you'll see a GM make. If you look at Locroix's moves on a trade-by-trade basis, some will look bad. If you look at his overall team management...I'm not sure you'll find a better GM in hockey. Except for when he canned Bob Hartley. That was rank.

Do you have a link?

yikes. link?

dola-

Dallas Stars have signed FA defenseman Lubomir Sekeras for the remainder of the season.

No, it's being reported on the radio. Nothing on the Sportsnet site yet (www.sportsnet.ca).

I'm no doctor, but I can't imagine it's a broken neck in the "never walk again" sense. We would have heard something before now if he hadn't moved since last night, wouldn't we?

In other news, Francis is a Leaf.

he was definitely moving his legs on the ice after the hit.
Francis would have been a better fit for the Canucks.

Here's a link on the Moore story:
http://wwww.sportsnet.ca/hockey/show...ntent=s030935A

(Apparently he's from Thornhill, the town I grew up in.)

No, I wasn't kidding. And watch that video again, he doesn't tackle, nor slam his face into the ice. He falls because of momentum and his weight on Moore. When Moore gets hit his legs give out and they both collapse. I'm positive Bertuzzi didn't intend to smash his face into the ice (which is what does most of the damage I'd guess).

I'm not saying what he did was ok, which is why I agree he should be suspended. But it isn't as bad as the outcome makes it look. Sucker punches in hockey are not new.

I have to admit, when I finally saw the video (after hearing about it all morning), my reaction was similar. It was bad, no doubt, but not as bad as it sounded. And I also just don't see the "smashing his head into the ice" part. I don't know if people are getting overly dramatic or whether there's another camera angle out there that I haven't seen, but it sure looks like Bertuzzi slugs him, falls on top of him and makes one more weak swipe at him before everyone piles on.

If you are going to sucker punch someone like that, you are responsible for the consequences. Moore didn't trip over a cat - he was sent face-first into the ice with a great deal of force by a punch he didn't even see coming. It doesn't matter what Bertuzzi intended to happen to Moore.

If Bertuzzi was a man and was not hitting a guy skating away from him...Moore would not be lying in a hospital with a broken neck right now.

I wonder...do you think Marc Crawford is still laughing about the hit?

Well you can choose to blame it on physics or you can hold the man accountable for his actions. Yes, we all agree Bertuzzi should be suspended, but I disagree when you blame most of the damage on the physics of the attack. Moore wouldn't be in surgery now if it weren't for Bertuzzi and that's the bottom line.

Looked to me like Bertuzzi hits Moore.....Moore is out on his feet....Bertuzzi's momentum has him land on Moore.Moore being knocked out cannot get his hands up to break his fall and goes face first into the ice.

I would say end of season for Bertuzzi...including play-offs.

How could it not be?

at first I thought through the regular season.
with the broken vertebraes...I think we are talking about playoff time as well.

That sounds about right. There's no excuse for what Bertuzzi did. No need to sex it up by pretending he slammed Moore's head on the ice or wailed away on the guy when he was down. The sucker punch was more than bad enough.

Hmm, it could be argued that if Moore was a man and hadn't fled all over the ice to get away from Bertuzzi he would simply have a black eye right now... ok, now I'm just going too far :D

I've seen the video. It looks to me like he clearly slammed Moore's head to the ice, and clearly meant to. I don't find the reports sexed up at all. The radio reports all made it sound very bad. But not nearly as bad as it was.

Well, I guess we disagree. My honest reaction was that after the initial sucker punch, the worst you could say was that Bertuzzi didn't try to avoid landing on Moore as they both fell. But then again I can't read his mind.

Watch it in slow motion. I see Bertuzzi's legs extending to launch himself onto Moore. During the fall his left arm is clearly on the back of Moore's neck and extending, obviously trying to add force to the impact of Moore's head with the ice.

I agree different poeple will interpret the video different ways, and that was my point to begin with. You can argue intent (which neither of us will ever truly know) and the cause of Bertuzzi falling, but not seeing his left arm clearly aiding the descent of Moore's head is ignoring the facts.

It couldn't have helped that the Colorado guy jumped on top of Bertuzzi , and continued to let Moore's face slide across the ice... and for Moore to run away all game after he gave Naslund that consussion... well, he had to know that they were looking to rough him up to say the least... I'm not saying he deserved what Bertuzzi did to him, but he was building up the Canucks players' hatred for him everytime he was on that ice and didn't get hit...

Well, let's be fair. Moore dropped his gloves in the first period. He did the right thing. That could have been the end of it right there.

He was trying to draw a penalty. That's his job. Bertuzzi just freaked out on him.

Since I don't recall seeing it at the time (or since for that matter), I'll ask ...

Did Moore cheapshot Naslund ? Or was it just a course-of-play hard hit?

watch it again.

http://www.hockeyfights.com/cf277/04...hots_moore.wmv

Bertuzzi was forcing him down and putting pressure on him the whole way down.

just a hard hit. not a cheap shot in the opinion of most - it's a hit you see almost every day in the NHL.

Vancouver was upset because 1) Naslund was hurt on the play and 2) he is a star player, and there's supposed to be a code to let up a bit on star players.

A bit of both. It wasn't a cheap play like a sucker punch or stick to the head. You could argue that it was a clean hit. But it was a headshot to a player who was off-balance and couldn't protect himself. And the fact that it was a fourth-liner hitting the league's best player didn't help the perception.

Still, Bertuzzi's reaction was out of of all proportion to what Moore did.

What a boring trade deadline.

Can't wait to see the tv ratings on this.:)

I did watch it again. Bertuzzi wasn't forcing him down -- the guy was out cold, he didn't need to be forced. Bertuzzi is holding the back of his jersey and doesn't let go of it, but I just don't see any driving going on.

Well, I have to say right now that I didn't see any of the game, and I saw somewhere in this thread that Moore was running all game.. so I assumed that he was ducking all Canucks players for the entire game... you can see why I made my comments now. :D

It'll be really interesting to see what happens now... when do the Canucks and Avs play next? :)

The hurt does'nt stop in Motown...Robert Lang out 3 weeks with cracked ribs.

How ya feeling H_B....any injuries in Belgium? :)

Hnidy to Nashville for a 3rd roundpick..woohoo:D

Well, again, as they are falling, Bertuzzi's arm is extending. Try to explain it away if you wish, but his arm starts close to he chest as to fall and is almost fully extended as they hit the ice.

I do think that the damage caused here is more than Bertuzzi likely intended. Of course, it is not like the decision to take this action resulted from rational thought to begin with.

No. We're doing ok here in the land of frites, beer, lace, and chocolate. Though, with a couple of phone calls to the right people there could be a certain shoe salesmen in Canada who may have an injury or two... ;)

Seriously. Draper, Datsyuk, and now Lang? This is getting out of control. Datsyuk is due back in 2 weeks, Draper 4, Lang 3. This is not good. Assuming they all do make it back in time for the begining of the play-offs, it will be highly unlikely that Draper or Lang will be fully healed. A shoulder injury (Draper) and rib injury (Lang) aren't the kind of injuries you can effectively play through. You just can't. Your ribs will ache every time you breathe and the shoulder with each nudge. Hrmmm... :mad:

That's good deal. You can't think of a better place for "The Sheriff" Shane Hindy to play than Nashville. They'll love him down there!

and the clock ticks.....tocks....ticks.....

trade deadline deals are always anti-climatic.....come on devils, PULL THE TRIGGER!

What was up with that weird, Curtis Brown, Jeff Jillson, Brad Boyes trade? Jillson headed to Buffalo? Is Jilllson never going to develop? Very strange.

boring deadline.

Canucks do get Martin Rucinsky.
Grier goes to Buffalo (Satan goes nowhere, it seems).
Blues get Savage.
*yawn*

Boston sends Jeff Jillson back to San Jose. San Jose send Jillson away again, this time to Buffalo. odd.

I think DeVries is a nice "get" for Ottawa. Francis would be a bigger pickup for almost any other team besides Toronto - that team is already so loaded with veteran leadership presence he wont add as much as he would have on another club. Might be interesting to see him come in somewhere though where he doesn't have to lead the club and can just focus on playing - he might turn out to be the pickup of the deadline.

love the trade for Salo. Not so in love with losing Morris for Gratton, but that's life. Barnaby? meh.

I must have missed the part where Vancouver got an NHL-calibre goaltender...

That's awful logic. By that same cause/effect token, if some guy is watering his lawn, you slip on the water and get hit by the car then he gets the death penalty for killing you. The sucker punch was not what caused the broken neck or all the blood.

If it was just the cheap shot, Moore falls on the ice, and Bertuzzi keeps on skating by him, this isn't a story today. I'm still up in the air about whether Bertuzzi was trying to get him on the way down. If they decide he was trying to drive him into the ice, there's no way he plays until after the lockout. Sure, a cheap shot is cowardly and weak but it happens all the time in hockey and other guys don't get suspended 20 games for it. Look at what actually caused the gruesome damage.

SI

Stan Neckar was traded to Tampa for a 6th rounder!! Wow! Did you know that back around 1993-1995 or so, there was a big rumor floating around Detroit that the Wings were going to trade Steve Yzerman to Ottawa for Stan Neckar. Yes, the Stan Neckar who was just traded for a 6th round pick. Wow, that would have been the worst. trade. ever. EVER. I would have given up hockey and likely the Red Wings. Phew! Thank god THAT didn't happen.

Good to see Holzinger escape Pittsburg. Granted, he landed in Colombus, but it has to be better than Pitt.

So it looks like Kolzig is the last man standing. The only player on the Capitals with any kind of salary who wasn't traded. The rest of them, ALL of them, Bonrda, Lang, Gonchar, Carter, Nylander, and Grier are gone. Of course, Kolzig is the only one who is on my CURSED ESPN fantasy hockey team, so it's no surprise there...

No. This is totally wrong. For an offense like this you look at intent and track it back from there. Did Bertuzzi intend to hit Moore? Yes, it was premeditated, he chased him half-way across the rink. Did he intend to break his neck with the punch? No. But that doesn't matter, once you have the original intent of the act (the punch) you have to live the consequences. Same thing would happen if you got into a fight. You punch some dude and he just happens to have some rare condition that makes his skull like an egg-shell and he dies, you on the hook for voluntary manslaughter (or some equivalent).

This is totally different from the watering the law scenario. Different ballpark, different sport (pardon the pun).

The logic of the original post was sound.

Awful logic? I don't think so: had Bertuzzi not sucker-punched Moore in the first place, the entire incident (regardless of whether Bertuzzi "drove" Moore into the ice purposely or not) would never have taken place.

You're right about one thing: cheap shots do happen all the time. The difference is that Bertuzzi's actions broke Moore's neck, so regardless of whether or not he tried to drive Moore into the ice, Bertuzzi's sucker-punch jumpstarted the whole incident and he should be accountable for his actions. What caused the damage? Bertuzzi caused the damage, plain and simple.

Stan Neckar (pronounced NeshCash, IIRC) is still in the league? really?

And that's why there's the distinction between voluntary manslaughter and murder. If you knew about the condition and were trying to kill him, you get 1st degree murder as opposed to if you just get in a fight and accidentally kill a guy, they don't set you up with a date with ol' Sparky. Intent has to be taken into account. Obviously, I can't read the guy's mind but I don't think Bertuzzi went out there with the intent to put the guy into the hospital, just to ring his bell.

SI

I've always heard it NetzCarsh

Bertuzzi hit more with the intent to injure. That's where the intent lies. The extent of the injury really has nothing to do with the intent. That's the distinction between Bertuzzi's action and the guy watering his lawn.

In hockey, I don't think the crime should be dependent on the injury sustained. Though I think it's hard to divorce the two. If the injury turns out to be serious, I think Bertuzzi has more to fear from the police in Vancouver than whatever punishment the NHL hands down.

i thought it was Nes-Cash

I've always heard it...

"healthy scratches for tonights game....."

Well, then we're quasi in agreement. I agree that it should have more to do with the intent to injure rather than extent of injury.

But I think you're getting caught up in the "hype" of this injury. Should every enforcer who goes out there to cheap shot a guy get the same 20+ games Bertuzzi is going go to get? That's why I made the distinction that if they decide he was trying to hurt him as he was falling (and subsequently dragging his stunned carcass across the ice), then there isn't a big enough book to throw at him. However, if his intent was just to cheap shot him upside the head, there's no way you can justify that as a 20+ game suspension or every bench would have 2 or 3 guys serving 20 game suspensions at any given time.

SI

See, this is the part I can never really get my head around. Should the injury dictate the punishment? I'm still not sure.

If you say "yes", then you have to accept that there will be plenty of cheap shots going on that never get severely punished. Guys sucker punch each other all the time -- not as bad as Bertuzzi, of course, but you see it all the time in scrums. Do you never punish anyone as long as nobody's hurt?

Then again, if you say "no", then it's not really fair to throw the book at Bertuzzi just because the guy he hit happens to get hurt. But the guy has a broken neck. How can that not affect the punishment?

Look at the Havlat/Recchi incident. Havlat swings at his head, but Recchi sees it coming and manages to absorb most of the impact with his arm. Havlat gets a slap on the wrist - two games. What if Recchi is just a little slower and takes the full force of the slash? He's out cold on the ice in a pool of blood, same as Moore. Does Havlat get the season then? Doesn't the difference between 2 games and 20 games for the exact same action seem a little odd?

Vancouver also got Geoff Sanderson from CLB.

I really like Panger, but in a chat tonight...


SI

the ESPN guys are nice, but they are total pussies when it comes to voicing their opinion - Pang, Clement, Melrose...all of them are so freaking diplomatic 99% of the time.

all the more reason to enjoy the various Canadian feeds I get through Directv.

Upon watching the Bertuzzi hit, I can't help but think that the most serious injury might have occurred when Moore's teammate piled on Bertuzzi immediately after the hit. Not that Bertuzzi shouldn't be held responsible for the full extent of the injuries that he caused, but it really looked like the neck injury occurred during the aftermath, not the punch/takedown.

Nice trade analysis from THN:

http://www.forecaster.ca/hockeynews/hockey/tradelog.cgi

Sachmo,

What happened with the Stars last night, shut out in Pittsburgh. I watched some of the game and Aubin stood on his head (45 saves) :)

Todd

Great link, thanks.

Okay, anybody want to take a shot at guessing how much playing time Salo will see down the stretch? 50/50 with Aebischer? Less? More?

(trying to figure out what fantasy hockey value he has left. G is the only position where I'm not even close to my games played allotment)

Aebischer will play in almost all the games. Salo is just insurance - replacing struggling backup Phil Sauve.

Unfortunately (for me, not for the Avs) that's pretty much what I figured :(

Aubin earned every minute of his perfect 60. The Stars looked past Pittsburgh, and they got burned. Also, they are a horrible road team, which does not bode well for the #5 seed. :o

Hrmm... That [CENSORED] going on right now really makes you appreciate our little hockey sub-segment we've got here.


edited for thread security.

yep

Shh... druez might hear us.

:)

yes, our conversation ran its course yesterday, now back to bashing bobby clarke!

ok.

Bobby Clarke still sucks

whoooo!

He did get two draft picks for Therian. Apparently, he sucks.

Agreed. I disagreed with some of what was said over here (and being devil's advocate is just so darn fun, too) but it didn't turn into a knock down drag out brawl. We just had our debate and got done with it. I don't know who this druez person is, but people seem to enjoy taking pot shots at him personally instead of the argument. I was thinking of responding over there but thought better of it.

*tries to draw some parallel to code of the NHL thread versus the rest of the board not understanding and drawing a blank* ;)

SI

WHat happened??

a very tearful apology from Bertuzzi tonight...

I think it was obvious that he was genuinely upset. Still, unless the NHL makes an example of him, the league will be even more irrelevant than it already is.

I'm not sure the NHL has the balls to do that, especially to one of its stars on a contending team.

Verdict is in: he's gone for the rest of the season, including playoffs.

The NHL drops the ball yet again. They have the opportunity to fight back against the brutality and negativity surrounding their league and they fail to seize the opportunity and make an example of Bertuzzi. I'm very, very disappointed.

I'm an Avs fan and I think the suspension was about right.

As the exact opposite of an Avs fan ( ;) ) I agree. Therefore, we have a consensus.

The league has been pretty reluctant to ban anyone during the play-offs. It certainly happens, but the sentences are usually much shorter. This is satisfactory and I think sends a strong enough message.

Ahh... Gets more interesting.

From TSN

"Mr. Bertuzzi will be required to meet with Commissioner Bettman prior to the start of training camp for the 2004-05 season, at which point Mr. Bertuzzi's eligibility will be reviewed in light of all the available facts at that time, including Mr. Moore's physical status and the progression of his recovery."

So, in essence, the suspension could last longer...

it can, but I don't think it will.
Bertuzzi certainly appears to be sincerely remorseful about what happen. He still does deserve what he got, but I don't think they'll drag it out longer.

I also have a feeling that Steve Moore would not want it dragged out longer either.

I am dissapointed in one thing involving this. Marc Crawford deserved a suspension.

dola

of course, there isn't even going to BE a 2004-2005 season, so any talk of the suspension going longer is moot. :(

Right, this is effectively a 1.5-2.5 year suspension.

Suspending him for part of "next season" would have been silly given the uncertainty of when that will be.

Wow. What should they have done? Given Bertuzzi's status as a superstar player and his importance to the Canucks playoff hopes, I don't think it's unreasonable to say that this is the most severe suspension in NHL history. It may be the most severe suspension for an on-field incident in North American sports history. He deserved big-time punishment, of course, but what did you want them to do? Shoot the guy?

Well, McSorley nominally got a more severe penalty. I agree with you this has more actual teeth, especially if you count playoffs as 10 times more important than a reg season game. This is an extremely severe penalty. Shooting him would be more severe I think.

I do wish Crawford had gotten a 2 game suspension for smirking, or at least was forced to put on a uniform and skate a shift next time they played the Avs.

The NHL had to give this punishment. I think it sends out a strong message to other players. I also think that Crawford should've at least been fined...

Yeah, that's exactly what I wanted. :rolleyes: They should have suspended Bertuzzi for a calendar year. This incident is an embarrasment to the entire sport and rivals the McSorely incident for the national exposure it has received. The NHL needed to set a precedent with this situation, and I believe that suspending a guy for the rest of the regular season and playoffs is not harsh enough of a penalty given the damage (both to Moore and the league overall) which Bertuzzi caused with his actions.