Err, what? Manny has a 152 OPS+ this year. Which is very impressive, but less than his OPS+ in 1996 with Boston and somewhat akin to his 1994 and 1995 in Boston, and, of course, a deal below his peak years in Cleveland and Boston. Wasn't the common Boston refrain that he got bored and wasn't trying... now he's just a "castoff"?

And Holliday started off really poorly this year in Oakland (sometimes it isn't all that easy to figure out a new league), but in the months before he was traded was massacring the ball. And Holliday's Batting Average for Balls in Play was insanely high right after he came over to St. Louis (for the entire month of July, which was split between Oakland and StL, it was .462).

For a guy who hasn't pitched in forever, this guy Wagner has some set of balls on him. Last week a report from his agent says "oh Billy can't wait to go to a contender and fight for a World Series", now Wagner is saying he won't waive his no-trade clause, although the Mets can just let him go for nothing, unless the Sox agree to decline his option AND don't offer him arbitration. I really hope the Mets just let the Sox claim go through.

I'm a Royals fan. I haven't seen a highlight in over two months.

Billy Wagner is a douchebag.

I'm going to give Wagner a pass on this one, and that's coming from someone who hates him and wishes the Mets could get whatever they can. He's leaving money on the table by wanting his option declined (there's no way he can be that delusional to think he'll make more) so if he wants to be a closer, and is willing to be paid less to do it, he is more than welcome to try. He negotiated that no trade fairly.

But there's no way the Sox pick him up without being able to offer him arbitration (in order to get that draft pick compensation when he signs elsewhere). I think the deal is almost as much about that sandwich pick in potentially one of the last few drafts without a slotting-system in place then it is about getting Wagner to pitch for the Sox. That's why they're willing to eat that chunk of his salary.

I'm with Logan. He's exercising his rights, and doing it smartly. If the Sox are only interested in the draft pick compensation, that hurts Wagner. If the Sox are interested in bringing him back as a setup man, that hurts Wagner. The only way Wagner gets to close next year is if the Sox trade him or he blocks the trade and hopes the Madoff-hit Mets don't offer arb. It looks like the smart move to me.

I can't believe Wagner hasn't pitched all year and is still a type A free agent. Compensation on relievers is utterly retarded, (LaTroy Hawkins is a type A!) and needs to be fixed.

First of all, I don't think Wagner would even be considered a Type A or B free agent at this point even if he was offered arb.

Second, why should Wagner care about what else Boston would receive? He quite literally wants nothing from them (unless there's a buyout associated with declining the option, in which case I would hope he would be waiving that...if he's seeking that consideration and isn't willing to, I would agree with you).

You beat me to this. Is this actually confirmed somewhere or speculation? I thought this comes out prior to free agency and after arbitration?

Oh I don't think Wagner should care what the Sox would receive.

I'm just saying from their standpoint I doubt the deal makes a ton of sense unless they have the chance to get a Type A pick for him. And if the deal doesn't make sense for the Sox it won't happen either.

I'm all for Wagner trying to get what he can, just saying I think in this case nothing is likely to happen because he's not willing to give what they want and they're not willing to give what he wants.

Rankings 082209

Some dude on MLBTR reverse engineered the ratings, and has been updating them from time to time. Wagner rates as a type A somehow.

I guess part of the problem with relievers is that there are more of them(at least 7 per roster) than most any position but 1b/OF. So, if like 10% of the guys are type A and something like the next 10% are type B, you're at the point where potentially each bullpen has 2 comp worthy guys.

Like if I were to re-do compensation, i'd cut the relievers down by at least a half.

Compensation is not based on just this year. Wagner was pretty decent before this season. I have no idea if he would rank an A or B or what, but I wouldn't be shocked if he is still a type A/B free agent.

Hence the NTC being a useful tool for a player.

Nope. Not at all. How many times can a team fail to move a runner over or hit a sac fly to get a guy home. Then when they finally get the hit that they have been waiting 3 hours for they give up 5 runs later in the inning to lose.:banghead::banghead::banghead:

Yeah, i believe it's just the past 2 years(or is it 3), and he's thrown 2 innings this year. And is still firmly a type A. Something's broken with that.

I disagree. It is working as intended. It purposefully was set up to protect teams from a player who was a star player that encountered either a down year/off year or injury year from leaving for free agency for big bucks without the team getting any compensation.

It prevents a Manny Ramirez from purposefully dogging it in a final season and possibly leaving at only Type B free agency and hurting a team (and basically allowing the agent to hold that team hostage saying they need to meet their salary demands or get nothing for them.)

In this case, Wagner might not be some in his prime stud, but he was one of the best closers two seasons ago in the league. There should be something said for that. The system isn't perfect, but I have no problem with it looking back at more than just this season in considering compensation.

All this aside, I could've sworn that if a team declines an option, they can't offer arbitration, which means no compensation. This whole thing is blowing my mind. If the Mets trade him for anything less than an A prospect, that's reason #438 to fire Minaya.

Declining an option is not the same as declining arbitration. If you decline to pick up a team option, it simply means that player becomes a pending free agency and all other free agency rules still apply (ie: being allowed to offer them arbitration and receive compensation if they turn it down)

I'm almost positive you can decline an option and still offer arbitration. Just that chances are that you wouldn't do that.

Because in many cases you'd be setting yourself up for a potential 1 year contract through arbitration that was more than the option would have been in the first place.

Not only is Wagner an asshole, he's also an incredible pussy.


Yeah, just the kind of attitude you want from a potential closer.

The irony of a guy freely admitting that he's not as good as he once was, saying it would be hard on him because he's working on getting better and the fans wouldn't stand for it...and you coming on here and posting it.

Yes, because you know that Philly fans have come down really hard on Pedro since he signed. Oh, and Mets fans openly booed Pedro during his start, despite the fact that he wanted to come back and Mets management refused to. "shrug"

So... when did Scott Rolen go from the Jays to the Reds??

at the Trade deadline

I understand Wagner has the no trade clause and whatnot (although, correct me if im wrong, the Mets can just let the Red Sox claim him and be done with it, right?), and that he's trying to re-establish himself. But, for a guy who hasn't pitched in a long time, is pushing 40, he's really a douchebag. Ok, he doesn't want to be a setup man, well he's not gonna close in NY, so why not do exactly what it is he will be doing in NY, except for a team in a fight for the playoffs. To me he is just a selfish guy looking for the $$$. He doesn't want to be offered arbitration so he can cash in next yr as a FA. And with that article about him not wanting to go back to the Phils, ok, it's understandable with the history between them, but at the same time, he is a pussy. Grow a pair, man up and go try to win a damn World Series. Guy is just a selfish bag of douche in my opinion.

Great, those people are d-bags just like you.

Thanks... must have missed that. Stopped paying attention once they started sucking.

Looks like all the caterwauling might be for naught since lots of people are reporting Wagner will waive his no-trade. Be VERY interesting and telling to see what the final deal looks like.

Hoping its a good PTBNL. A decent prospect wouldn't pass through waivers right, unless he's not on the 40? Forget how that part works.

Agreed. I find absolutely nothing wrong with anything Wagner has said in this entire matter. He's actually handled it with a decent level of class.

Logan, I would bet dollars to donuts the Mets get nobody.

Edit: Nobody, or organizational filler.

See post 4369 Ron, I'm sure of it.

Saving $3.5 mil is probably more important than adding talent to a very hurting system.

Extra Bases - Red Sox blog


Even if it's two warm bodies that's more than I expected.

dola

I think the best thing for all involved, come to think of it, is that somehow Wagner is a Type B. Both the Sox and Wagner would be happy there, I'd imagine.

Was just thinking that. If I'm the Sox, I'm praying he doesn't end up an A. Little chance anyone signs him if they have to pay with their own 1st.

I should add, I don't think Wagner went about this the wrong way, and he's doing (or did, depending on what the whole situation is now) everything within his rights, I just find him to be a dbag in the sense that he's so worried about being a closer, has stated he wants to remain one and won't be happy otherwise, and he wants to reach 400 saves and pass franco as the all time saves leader for a lefty. These seem to be his priorities, which are all fine and dandy, but if I'm the GM of team, I wouldn't want this guy one bit, doesn't seem to worried about winning a title.

Nice with the personal attacks. You are a very classy fan.

This.

Also, let's not forget Wagner trashed Phillies fans and the team on his way out. It'll be interesting if he can hold back from laying a few soundbytes on his way out the door or during the next off-season.

You call Wagner "an incredible pussy", I call you a d-bag for it, and I'm the one lacking class?

So the Sox get Wagner and two draft picks for filler. Works for me, even if Wagner doesn't pitch much, with is a definite possibility. They seem pretty set in late-inning relief.

As has been said earlier. Holliday was doing very well in Oakland in June/July and just carried it on in St. Louis (it also helps to be hitting around Pujols). Manny's season has been worse in LA than most of his Boston years.

There are plenty of players that go the other way. Texiera was hitting .280 with a .902 OPS in almost 400 ABs for the Braves in 2008. He's traded to the Angles and has an OPS of 1.081 and .358 average in his final 200 ABs. Then, for the Yankees this season, he's hitting .290 with a .941 OPS. Seems like the NL east was a lot tougher to him than the AL. What about Russell Branyon? I his 300 ABs in the NL from 2007 to 2008, he was barely hitting .200 with 20 total HRs. In 419 ABs for Seattle this season, he's hitting 30 HRs and a .251 average. You can also look at Jason Bay (.745 and .890 OPS in pitt, .897 and .901 in Boston). Sometimes going from a crappy team to a better team makes players try more and do better. It goes the other way too. Just look at Milton Bradley (1.000 OPS in 400 ABs in Texas in 08, .766 OPS in 300 ABs in 09). How many times has ESPN said "Man, Milton Bradley has really struggled since coming into the NL"? Yet, if it was reversed, we'd see 3 columns a week on how the weak NL boosted his stats last season.

ESPN is dominated by Boston/NY AL fans who love to make this argument. But the interleague play is tightening up, the NL is just as successful in the postseason and there are just as many players than struggle in the NL and thrive in the AL as vice versa. Pitching stats are always going to be better in the NL because there's no DH - but that doesn't stop ESPN for bashing the NL for the lower ERAs of Sabathia, Lee and others.

J.J. Putz scratched from a rehab appearance today. So either another trade or another injury (I'm gonna lean on #2).

I'd say math makes that virtually impossible.

Hopefully the next CBA fixes some issues. Like give teams the option to tender as an A(perhaps arb plus a player option on a second season) or Type B(simply arb)

Depends. Are you Billy Wagner?

I wonder how hard the union will push to get rid of the entire compensation system in the next CBA. It seems like it has much more of an impact on team's decisions than was intended. Not that they have a lot of chips left themselves, now that there's some kind of drug testing.

oof

Playoff chances as calculated by Baseball Prospectus

Braves are down to 18.5% due to Colorado's recent form. A Dodger sweep this week would be pretty sweet. Atlanta actually scoring a run tonight wouldn't hurt either.

Capps is such a pile of shit.