I agree that we should take statements at face value and try not to infer what might not be there. Otherwise it's too easy to talk past each other or create strawmen.


I should've asked my teacher this the last time I failed a math test.

Yeah, I mean politicians, specifically, have no interest in lying or trying to create a place where they can be all things to all people to try and maximize votes. And we definitely shouldn't try to infer the meaning of their actions or true intent. They never talk out of both side of their mouth and should not be held accountable for it, even if those words or actions could cost lives.

SI

No one (to my knowledge) is saying that the government should ban Paul or others from speaking. No one (to my knowledge) is suggesting that he be jailed or otherwise punished for speaking.

Many people are simply not letting him get away with saying wrong bullshit and are calling him out on it.

Despite what the "OMG Cancel Culture!" folks would have you believe, having free speech does not mean that you should be immune from criticism.

Nobody is saying Paul's speech should be banned. Conversely, to SI's point, nobody's saying it shouldn't be criticized either.

What some people *are* saying is that we can judge the motives of one side of a debate, and that side only, based on things they didn't actually say. That we can assume he's not getting vaccinated to make a political statement, but it's not a problem at all if others *do* get vaccinated to make a political statement. That we can assume nefarious motives for the other side of the debate, but that it's unfair to do so if it's something 'our' side says.

That's what I object to. Anybody who so much as posts on this forum, much less is a public figure like a Senator, definitely ought to have what they say examined and criticized. That's what debate is for.

So we're required to believe that voting suppression efforts are about voting security?

Nah, that's stupid. Taking what they say at face value about vaccines and COVID is also stupid.

I agree that people should be given the benefit of the doubt, but that ends at some point when the person proves they are not sincere. That point was long ago passed by Rand Paul. What people have said and done in the past should clearly be factored into whether or not their current statements are truthful.

You're not required to believe anything about the why. Leaving the why entirely to the side and engaging with what people actually say is what I'm advocating for.

Otherwhise we just end up in a situation where each side ... sides differing somewhat depending on the issue ... assume the other side is debating in bad faith because they don't trust them. I.e. so-and-so is against mask mandates to own the libs, Biden's spending bills are about turning the US into a socialist utopia rather than making necessary investments in the future, etc. It's easy to say 'we' don't trust Rand Paul, but 'they' don't trust Biden/Democrats and they think they have good reasons for doing so.

The only way out is to not assume we know what's beneath the surface.

Paul is absolutely anti-vax and has been for many years. He has also supported the proliferation of the virus.

I agree with albion that I doubt his stock picks motivated his pro-COVID stance, but I do think there is a political motivation behind it. And him being really dumb.

THESE PEOPLE ARE BAD AT RESEARCH https://t.co/lt8Tpvkkiy

— Alex Edelman (@AlexEdelman) August 12, 2021

One of our town councilmen, a GOPer, posted an update from the county board of health and boy, did it bring out the crazies.

Actually new report is it was the first time Paul had traded an individual stock in 10 years so definitely some insider trading.

https://www.cnbc.com/amp/2021/08/12/...mpression=true

Proof of COVID-19 vaccination or negative test result required to attend New Orleans Saints games

Good on the Saints. You want to enjoy things like a football game…go get vaccinated

The U.S. Supreme Court will not block Indiana University's vaccine mandate. Justice Amy Coney Barrett rejected the plea without even asking the university for a response or getting her colleagues to weigh in. Justices often act on their own in such situations when the legal question isn't particularly close. Barrett handles emergency matters from the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 7th Circuit, which includes Indiana.

Supreme Court Won't Block Indiana University's Vaccine Mandate

As a guy who just returned to campus full-time after my 18-month Pandemic StayCation, and a guy whose job duties include producing detailed immunization compliance stats, I'm glad that the Supreme Court agrees that these students in particular can go fuck themselves.

But I feel that way about everybody who creates unnecessary work for me when I've got more important things to do.

I would be willing to take what they said at face value if they hadn't burned those trust bridges and shown many times over. They have shown that they are not interested in the betterment of society in general. Being wrong was frowned upon starting in first grade, and that's a standard that we teach our kids from early on. To believe otherwise is to normalize low education standards. If we know it's wrong, it's wrong, and we strive to be right


Paul never had to eat his words on his fearmongering over Ebola either. He was out there ramping up the transmissibility of it and stroking fears over the dangers that the greater US was in mostly to troll Obama.

He also added this gem in 2014{ Paul expressed concern about the lack of security at the border, saying an insecure “border is not only a danger for national security purposes, it is also a danger for a world-wide pandemic should it occur.” }, yet when we had an actual pandemic with a president who was hyper focused on the border he decided to focus on the people who were trying to contain, and he supported the guy who thought we could solve it with bleach and light.

You can't know someone isn't interested in the betterment of society. There's no way to determine, without being that person, whether or not they take a position because they are simply wrong or because they take it for ulterior motives.

I'm 100% with you on education and correcting wrong assessments, but that's a completely different matter from concluding what someone's motivations are. In every field of study there are highly educated, trained, and dedicated people who come to impressively wrong conclusions - because we are all biased as human beings and aren't robots.

At some point, when a person continues down the same wrong paths again and again, it is fair to ascribe to them the worst of motives. Because if they cared about being wrong and challenging their beliefs and assumptions, they would do something different.

Unless, of course, his actions have showed us again and again what his true motives likey are. But, of course, we can't know it a complete 100%. What are you even arguing again, Brian? That Paul has repeatedly shown he's a craven political weasel, but we can't prove for certain he's not taking the vaccine for political purposes? That's he may be an... "a-hole but he's not, and I quote, '100% a dick'"? I can't even figure out what hair you are trying to split here.

SI

Would like to add that a lot of the Vaccine hesitancy is fomented by Russian social media farms. Lemmings aren't excused and apparently, there's a group of people who seem to more easily be led down the conspiracy rabbit holes...but naw.... it's all a lie and it's an even split because "Who are you gonna believe data or your lyin' eyes?"

This, it's not a clean slate each and every day. Eventually, you can see a pattern unless of course, you don't want to.

This kind of crap is why mandates are a must. Similar to last year when my daughter would come home from school and say she found out someone was likely positive but she had to keep it quiet because if it gets out, sports will be shut down for 2 weeks and she doesn't want to be blamed and take the heat for it at school.

Oh wow. More than 80 students were potentially exposed to COVID-19 on the first day of class in Reno, NV, on Monday after a parent sent their child to attend school, despite both the parent and child receiving a positive COVID test just 2 days earlier. https://t.co/8EpPnJ1mKd

— Caroline Orr Bueno, Ph.D (@RVAwonk) August 13, 2021

I saw a school district in MS, without a vaccine or mask mandate, now has over 400 students in quarantine after only a week.

I hear that disclosing such information is a personal decision.

Is DeSantis'es political window closing along with this covid wave? Any kind of long term political predictions seem like a fool's game these days, but he seemed like a legit GOP front-runner just a couple months ago, yet has slipped so far so fast he seems just as likely to get tossed out with yesterday's trash or sacrificed as some kind of scapegoat as he is to move up in the presidential power rankings.

I'm still sticking with my original statement that whoever emerges, if not Trump, will be someone that isn't an obvious choice right now.

I believe it's a HIPPA violation.

That seems like a pretty good assumption. In this environment it seems like publicly chasing Trump's affections and/or getting your name in the news for any kind of Covid response is high risk/low reward. I have a friend who insists Paul Ryan has been actively playing the long, quiet game.

If (when?) the tide turns on Trumpism, the only thing that will bring people who have abandoned the party back into the fold is someone who can't be directly tied to supporting Trump and all of the "stop the steal" nonsense. I just don't know if that happens by 2023 when you've got to announce your intentions. If Paul Ryan is playing the long game, 2028 or 2032 may be the target.

Paul Ryan has a tough job overcoming his years of statements about cutting Social Security and Medicare. One thing I'll give Trump, he realized that shit was toxic to voters.

I know this isn't supposed to be a political COVID thread, but this is some funny stuff from The New Yorker:

DeSantis Losing Support Among Voters Opposed to Dying

In a potentially ominous development for the Florida governor, a new poll shows Ron DeSantis hemorrhaging support among voters who identify as opposed to dying.

According to the poll, DeSantis’s favorability numbers are plummeting among Floridians who describe themselves as “somewhat,” “very,” or “strongly” opposed to being dead.

Asked to name the issue most important to them, an overwhelming majority of anti-dying voters cited “continuing to exist,” with the economy and immigration placing a distant second and third.

Harland Dorrinson, an aide to the Governor, dismissed the poll numbers as “a distraction” and said that “this obsession with not dying is the kind of political correctness the people of Florida are tired of.”

“Governor DeSantis has had a very strong pro-dying message, and that’s not going to change,” the aide said.

That is hilarious.

Satan for 2024!

Pat Robertson with Satan's hand stuck up Pat's ass like a puppet as a runningmate?

Checked worldometers. Even with the recent increase of infections, deaths are still well under 1000 (for now).

Was interested to see how it compares to the "flu". At the current run of approx 700 deaths, still well above the flu.

I see what you did there :cool:

SI

I thought we were at the point in the pandemic where we all pretty much know deaths are a trailing indicator (and that having a 50ish% vaccinated population will drastically cut down on deaths).

SI

I love on FB how some of my Realtor cohorts claim to need more information while at the same time sowing misinformation and lack of trust in science. They also fail to be able to see how they consistently fall in line to the talking points that the Right wing conspiracy gang feeds them through OAN and Newsmax and Parler all the while all of the money and everything is tested back to Russia and foreign entities that are watching and loving how the Christian Conservative Right Wing idealogues have fallen hook line and sinker. It's actually fuckin' incredible and if this isn't some sort of alien social experiemtn on us in a test tube what else could it be. Are people really this stupid? Perhaps we don't deserve freedom if this is what happens to a huge subsection of the populace. I mean a dude just killed his kids over it and he isn't the first nor will be the last idiot.

I'm not sure how I managed to be unclear. I'm not trying to split any hair; my point is much larger than Paul. I'm simply saying that you can't know someone's motivations, full stop.

** As an aside, modern neurological science is backing up what some philsophical and religious traditions have taught for millenia, namely that it goes much farther even than other people's motivations. That is, humans can't reliably assess their *own* motivations for actions, much less what someone else whose thoughts we aren't privy to might be.

Let's consider the implications of this. Someone can't be consistently wrong while still trying to be right? That flies in the face of human experience. Even in modern times, we have plenty of examples of intelligent, successful, and otherwhise well-adjusted people, wanting to be convinced otherwhise but compelled by what they know of the available evidence that the Earth is flat. Including people who once found that idea as ludicrous as presumably all of us on this forum do.

I think there's a great underestimating of the level of bias that all of us as humans have going on here. History is strewn with examples of people who dedicated themselves to finding the truth of a subject and were wrong about their whole lives despite this goal, even with better information readily available to them. And as mentioned, it also exposes 'our' side to accusations of hypocrisy/bad faith every time 'they' find an issue where we are consistently pounding a note they think is obviously wrong.

what? realtors?

Sometimes it really is as simple as when someone shows you who they are believe them.

Absolutely. That can tell you a lot about of what people do, which is visible for everyone to see. It can't tell you about their motivations, i.e. true reasons for doing it. That's the difference.

I'm in the industry so my FB group via my networking has a bunch in my FB "Friends".

Except when they're literally caught on camera lying about it. Ie. Trump, et al. With that I find it rich that some then want to give the subject a 'benefit of the doubt' that their words are representative of their motivations at face value.

It's kind of like statistics. You can draw the conclusions from the statistics or start parsing, spinning and doubting the validity of the statistic but the facts are the facts no matter how twisted in a pretzel you are.

No, I mean you made those comments seemingly (?) to refute whomario calling Paul anti-vax after he listed some things Paul has said and done things to undermine vaccines. So what specific point are you trying to make about Rand Paul?

SI

It was the same point. whomario made statements assigning various motivations to Rand Paul, I said his statements should be taken at face value and we shouldn't assume he meant something else by them. People objected to that, and here we are a page later :).

The catch is that they are then fools if they are consistently wrong despite "better information being readily available to them." So you choose... bad actor or fool? Either way, a person that has shown this level of incompetence or bad faith should have no role in running the country. Or my county, for that matter.

We are all fools in that sense. There's some of this in all of us.

Again same crap of equivalency, excuses, and statistic ignorance/manipulation

It’s unbelievable

They literally catch people on camera or on audio telling you their true motivations yet you say take them at the word that they said and ignore the hot mic? The hot mic is the truth… what they said when they thought they could curate was the farce.

Same with statistics… I’m sure this lady is a lefty lib

https://twitter.com/jerrijamz/status...255106049?s=21

BS for BS


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Feel free to stop lying about me at any point. It would make for better discussions.

I never said ignore the hot mic. At no point have I stated, implied, or otherwhise indicated we should ignore what people say. I'm also not making excuses for anyone or manipulating anything. You're shadowboxing something here that just plain isn't happening.

I fail to see the point of your link, I've never posted anything supporting the 'plandemic' POV and it has nothing to do with anything I've been talking about.

Riiiiiiigggghhhtt


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COVID-19 - Wuhan Coronavirus (a non-political thread, see pg. 36 #1778)
 

The reason it goes on for pages is because you have said and inferred exactly those things that you say you didn’t!!

Multiple people for pages have called you out for the exact same stuff so at some point you have to realize there are 4 fingers pointed back at yourself.

Or don’t, it doesn’t matter but your credibility was set to fire when you argued the anti vax stats stuff and under withering statistics continued to argue the trash POV you’re stuck with as to why people on whole, en masse, are anti vaccine


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If so, it should be easy for you to cite a specific example. Feel free to do so. That's what debates are for. If I've done so, I'll clarify or retract as the need be what I said.


And yet another lie. This is not what happened. What happened was, I thought different statistics were more relevant than what you and others did, and said so. I also said why, and gave basic logical explanations of why the stats you were citing didn't demonstrate what you said and were being misused. I can't control others opinions of my credibility, but I can say as I did then that I stand by the tenor of my comments in that discussion, and I'm confident that any reputable instructor in basic statistics would agree with me on the way the cited stats were being distorted and did not at all represent what was being claimed.

It's too bad this wasn't entirely predictable.

JUST IN: Hillsborough County Public School Board will hold an emergency meeting Wednesday after 5,599 students and 316 staff have entered quarantine for COVID. The Tampa-area district, seventh largest in the U.S., has only been in school four days.

— Travis Akers (@travisakers) August 16, 2021

Jay Cutler is going to run for school board to fight these mask fascists. It's always the ones you kind of expect.

I’m sure the Tampa students and faculty are just lying


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It's covid season in Florida, it's completely normal for people to catch a little sniffle!

My son tried out for a travel baseball team in Tampa on August 7th.

We found out he made the team on August 8th.

My wife contacted the team yesterday August 15th because we have not heard anything from them since he made the team. No reply to her email.

Today, August 16th, we found out that three of the coaches have contracted COVID with two including the head coach for his age group currently in ICU.

On a completely insignificant but related note, the team's entire travel ball program for all age groups have been suspended for the fall season.

Maybe remdesivir can sponsor the team?

Or until Desantis signs and executive order banning the shutdown of youth sports.

I'd say too many hits to the head but I think most people questioned his decision making from day 1

SI

Thinking about getting a vaccination passport. I can see myself traveling to other countries next year. I did some googling but there doesn't seem to be a centralized way of getting one (don't think Fed/States are mandating it so the solutions are hodge-podge).

I got my vaccinations from Publix and nothing on their site. Didn't see anything on CVS either.

Has anyone gotten a vaccination passport? If so, how?

My wife is friends with the head of pulmonology at the largest hospital system in SC. They're out of vents and ICU beds in the region. They're telling new patients to come back in a few days when they're worse because they have nothing to treat them with. Most patients are on their 30-40s with a few as young as 18. They don't expect most of them to make it.

Booster shots coming for everyone.

I'm not sure I like the idea. I have to do more research but can you get too much of the vaccine? I won't be first in line but prob wait 2-3 months (unless all hell is breaking loose with Lambda or whatever).

e.g. Does booster shots need to go through same rigor as the first set of vaccinations for adverse/side effects? I don't remember reading about a robust study on additional booster shots.

I find it odd that anyone is surprised by the booster shot. I was expecting this to be like the annual flu shot before they had ever developed a specific vaccination.

Me either, I'm guessing most of us here get a flu shot every season, not sure how a booster for COVID is any different

I am frustrated by the fact that the administration has apparently been working overtime to get the FDA to get off its ass and get boosters approved but appears content to let the < 12 EUA remain a back burner issue.

Yeah, I don't get this flurry of news around booster shots. You want to stop this virus quicker? Get vaccines in kids' arms before school or as soon as possible.

SI

New Zealand doesn't mess around:

https://www.cnn.com/2021/08/17/asia/...hnk/index.html

My daughter's bday is next month and started school this week. We're tempted to just say she's 12 to get her started. I dunno, maybe there's something in the microchip that keeps it from working if the person's blood is a day less than 12.

I wonder if the slow FDA approval for under 12 is a political one. It's one thing if a bunch of science denying dopes in red states don't get vaccinated. It is a very bad look if vaccinations in kids under 12 lag in blue states, which I suspect they would.

If that's the calculus, it is a bad one.

Right now, the anger is at the anti-vaxxers.

But the anger will switch to the administration as kids start dying and their parents give tearful interviews about they would have given them the vaccine if only they had been allowed to.

If they approve it and after a few months we are looking at a 35% vaccination rate in kids (this is an arbitrary number) it is going to make the admin look equally as bad if not worse.

Why?

It will be a 24-7 cycle of "even blue state parents don't trust the vaccinne for their kids"

"Biden vaccine roll out for kids is an epic failure"

It will turn the narrative from anti vaxers and bad policies in red states killing kids to a failure in Bidens vaccine rollout killing kids.

I think we just agree to disagree. I think that giving parents the choice will be seen as an overall good. If some parents (which will certainly be the case) choose not to do it, I don't know if that will come back on the administration.

Axios/Ipsos poll: Overall 69% of Americans support mandatory masking in school, with 44% of Republicans and 92% of Democrats supporting.

This is definitely another one of those 'Twitter isn't real life' data points. pic.twitter.com/moEMN1Ekch

— Josh Jordan (@NumbersMuncher) August 17, 2021

dola: The LOUD minority in this country makes it easy to forget just how out of step they are.

44% of Republicans support mandatory masking in schools.

But they aren't going to school board meetings with assault rifles and misspelled handmade Don't Tread on Me signs, so they don't get the attention.

At what point does the "oh but we are just being rational" trope unravel ? Yes.



At least some variety to ye olde Nazi comparisons.

One of the spearheads of this crowd, key figur for the Great Barrington dump as well as advisong deSantis. And oh, a Harvard Professor. No wonder he deleted it later. Also no wonder he did it without comment (after even 80% of his deranged following called him out), much less apology.

https://www.reddit.com/r/southcaroli...oo_many_votes/

So Lin Wood is the crazy "election was stolen" guy. He also got a not insignificant amount of votes to be the head of the SC GOP.

Presley Stutts recently organized a hostile takeover of the Greenville GOP and has been in the hospital with COVID.

These people don't deserve to live and it's borderline criminal that doctors have to waste time and resources trying to keep them alive. The doctors at these hospitals are working every day, 18 hour days with no breaks keeping these deplorable, ungrateful pieces of shit alive. The world would be better of without them and we could see the light at the end of this hellscape if they would just slither into a corner and die.

But both sides or something.

Washington opened up booster shoots for the immunocompromised this week and expect to open it up quickly to other groups.

Would I be the ass hole if I told my sister that living where she does has rotted her brain? She was always considered the smart one of the family but she married a conservative and lives in a super conservative area. Didn’t get the vaccine, now her whole family has Covid. To top it off, they came down with it while visiting bro in law’s super high risk mother.

My parents are too nice to say it, but my inclination is to call her a fucking moron.

no, just expect to be cut off. these people are brainwashed and in a cult

I don’t think they would cut me off. She sent me a picture from some local event where she got to meet that nut job ex-Sheriff David Clarke. I jokingly asked her if MyPillow guy was there, and he actually was. So I told her that her and all the people at this event should be thrown in an asylum.

I consider her husband to be the real nutty one politically but he tries to act all moderate in person. Then he gets on Facebook (I unfollowed him long ago) and removes all doubt that he’s in the Qult.

I’m sure someone on the board will find some way to argue that that statistic/poll doesn’t reflect reality


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Governor Abbott of Texas +

Seemed like a really fun event last night, saw one elderly man in a wheelchair, many more out dancing and having a lovely time. I sincerely hope they don't die, as that just had the absolute feel of a "superspreader" event, even before this unshocking news.

No, not if they are putting your family at risk.

You know your sister better than anyone on this board I'm sure. I'd express your concerns in the way you think most likely to get through.

For most people, calling them a moron would be counterproductive. From your description only, not knowing the people involved beyond what you've said, I would also call it inaccurate. The most likely conclusion I can draw from the limited information available is that she assessed the situation and made a different life choice, choosing to accept a risk that most people would not choose to accept.

My guess, with nothing other than experience with those with authority over children to back it up, is it has to do with covering their behinds. I.e. if you're going to approve something to inject kids with you'd better be *darned* sure there aren't significant rates of serious side effects that you didn't know about and/or in any way understated at approval time.

She's choosing to accept a risk for her AND everyone she comes into contact with. This is not just some choice she's making in a vacuum that doesn't impact anyone else. This isn't someone smoking weed in their home. This is having a few drinks and driving home tipsy. Just a different life choice, really?

We're choosing to accept a risk for everyone else every time we get into a car and drive, every time we go anywhere and do anything, as I've given multiple examples of previously we accept some risk as part of the way we've decided to orient our society, what we accept and what we don't. Some of those have far greater impact that not getting a vaccine.

So yes, it's just a different life choice.

Come on. Driving and anti-vax aren't remotely comparable.

In degree of risk, no they aren't. In there being an element of risk to others involved, yes they are. As I've said though, there are other factors - the average person's contribution to climate change, average person's purchases of goods produced under dangerous, sweatshop-type conditions, etc - which have a far greater impact than someone not getting a vaccine. It's one of those situations where we choose to care about some of those things, and choose not to care about others. There are levels of harm to others that we are simply willing to accept to have the lifestyle we want as a society.

If you could take a shot to drastically reduce your odds, and the odds of those around you, from dying in a car accident, you'd be a selfish moron not to take it.

You could apply that thinking to any number of useful but potential dangerous activities.

You continue to use those analogies and they are terrible. One person's contribution to global warming or sweatshops is infinitesimally smaller than the risk of spreading this particular communicable virus. It's not even remotely comparable. Those are "levels of harm to others" that only exist because we as a collective global community contribute to it happening. But one unvaxxed person with Covid can easily impact a number of people.

Let's put aside driving. How about a man with HIV having unprotected sex with a woman? Not a guarantee of transmission by any stretch (CDC says 8 out of 10K). Just a "different life choice" to go around having one night stands? It's a free country and I can decide what risk I'm willing to take with other people's lives, right?

I would also take a free shot to stop climate change.

No it's not, it's far worse. Almost everyone who contracts COVID does not die. The current US fatality rate is less than 2%.

If you're going to compare it to driving, compare it to drinking and driving, because it's not just you that you're putting at risk.