It is great that Kevin is getting better and all, but how many people who are refusing the vaccine because they were influenced by fox news, etc...have access to the care he is getting? 2% maybe? Majority of people in his situation probably die.

Serious question, isn't a mask mandate illegal in FL?

DeSantis won't say a thing because Disney will stuff him in a barrel.

Private business.

https://apnews.com/article/florida-c...8040ca741aeba1

Was gonna say, Disney >> Florida.

Into the 4th wave of a pandemic which has impacted so much about the world, killed and hospitalized so many, if you're not vaccinated, you're an anti-vaxxer. To me, if you're not getting it because you just feel you're above it all and it's no big deal, you're no better the the people not getting it because of something they read on Facebook.

So you would classify pregnant women as anti-vaxxer?

Definitely.

Okay. We'll agree to disagree.

I know someone attempting to get pregnant and after talking to their doctor, decided to hold off. If you're getting medical advice based on a specific set of circumstances and there's enough hesitance to not be 100%, I don't have an issue with that. But I just don't think those are the majority of people not getting it. Most of them are refusing to ask a doctor because they know what the answer is going to be. It's a combination of refusing to listen to the public medical advice and willfully avoiding to ask the question to their own doctor.

I wanted to propose a specific use case where I believe hesitancy to get vaccinated is perfectly understandable and should not be condemned.

If my daughter was pregnant, telling her to get vaccinated would not be automatic ... I would struggle with it and not sure what I (or she) should do.

This use case is regardless of how much of a covid grognak one is, regardless of political affiliation, education level, race etc.

I agree with both Edward and KSyrup. I think most people who aren't getting it is not based on medical advice or due to pregnancy. There are some in that category but most have other reasons.

The main difference between me and the board on this I think is that I believe there are other legitimate reasons as well. I've found this whole situation to be fascinating in terms of social dynamics.

My wife has crazy reactions and side effects to medication, is very allergic to all stinging insects, has been doing allergy treatments to both environmental and venom over the last 18 months+. During that time, she's had to endure multiple epinephrine shots at the office and took an ambulance to the ER another time.

There were some concerns about the side effects to the vaccines, especially after the warnings about people who have strong allergy reactions, she's already had Covid once as well. But you know what the Dr said? They said, get the vaccine. Knowing the risks and threats, the Dr said, you must wait 3x as long as everyone else after you get your shot, and tell everyone that you're a risk, but go get the shot, because not getting it is worse. She did, and she had no additional adverse reactions.

The risk averse seem to be banking on some solution where they get the benefit without any risk. These people must also see the larger world as risk free. If the risks of a vaccine that will 99.5% of the time make you more safe from dying, are worse than the risks from driving your car, then they are very, very poor at risk assessment. That just comes down to control and the idea that they are better at controlling their world than they think they are. The randomness in life is a risk, but these people simply won't see it that way, and that perspective is ignorant.

Would this be the case for any vaccine or just the one for Covid?

The hard thing for me to get past is the entitlement. Everyone who doesn't get the vaccine think they're special for some reason - a special condition, they're young and healthy, they figured out the government conspiracy, etc.

As with everything COVID, there are people helping, and people harming. The vaccine is the easiest way to be on the right side of that. There's no spectrum of morality like there is with when to wear a mask, when to have family gatherings, etc. The shot takes 2 seconds, it's free, and it's the very best defense we have. The fact that once again, there are people who believe they're superior and entitled and don't have to help out, just pushes me further and further to extreme views on this - and a lack of empathy for people who believe they're too entitled for the vaccine but then die of COVID. Their death at least keeps them from harming and disrupting the lives of innocent people, and increases the % of people who are vaccinated.

For fucks sake I think we can all safely assume that when people talk about anti-vaxxers of course they are not talking about the people with medical conditions. Do the same people really need to hear the same statements fully qualified over and over and over again?

The fact that we have free access to an effective and safe vaccine is absolute miracle of modern medicine and something I'm truly thankful for. There are so many people in the world who don't have that. I'm not sure the extent of the death and suffering and social and cultural impact in those places has even been fully documented. It is the absolute peak of privileged entitlement that about half of us can't be bothered and have decided that they have no responsibility to do their part.

Fortunately I only know a small handful of people who are anti-vaxxers, and there's none in my family, and none among people who are important to me, because it would be a relationship-changing or ending dynamic for me if there was.

More support for molson's point: Literally any negative consequences for being unvaxxed will convince folks to get vaxxed.

NFL says 87.9 percent of players have had at least one shot of COVID-19 vaccine. https://t.co/kAhvbYdl8X

— ProFootballTalk (@ProFootballTalk) July 29, 2021

For my specific use case of pregnant woman, it was for Covid vaccination.

FWIW. 3.6M pregnancies a year. 11% of them were fully vaccinated (article on Jul 6). Not saying "most" but by raw numbers, there is a pretty large number not getting vaccinated due to pregnancy.

EDIT: bad assumption, rewording ... there is a large number of pregnant women not getting vaccinated but can't claim it's all due to pregnancy vs being an anti-vaxxer.

CDC study: 11% of pregnant women fully vaccinated for COVID-19 | khou.com

Understood. I guess what I am asking is what are the differences in the specific cases where people have "legitimate" concerns about the COVID vaccine and when they have "legitimate" concerns over any other vaccine or even anything else medical. I put the word legitimate in quotes because well who determines what is or is not legitimate in these cases? We have already seen the concerns of anti vaxxers not deemed legitimate by the society.

I've noted the CDC website before. CDC has approved the vaccines for pregnant women but it seems lukewarm, see below.

For me as an individual, sure I'm willing to play the odds (which are largely in my favor). For my (hypothetical) pregnant daughter, I don't know. I know it won't as easy an answer as some here would suggest.

COVID-19 Vaccines While Pregnant or Breastfeeding

Pregnant people with COVID-19 are at an increased risk of severe illness when compared to non-pregnant people, they're also at an increased risk for preterm birth.

Pregnant and Recently Pregnant People | CDC

That's 100% on them if they face those issues, something they'll have to live with (if they live).

I’ve been saying this the last few months. Even more so after we did some traveling. It should be much more difficult to enjoy the perks of life if you are not vaxxed than if you are. That is the only way to get the holdouts. If they can go to games, travel, etc. with no impediment or extra hoops well of course they aren’t going to get vaccinated.

So the Arkansas governor declared a public health emergency and followed it up with no masks required and we're wide open. So what's the emergency?

The city is on fire so I'm declaring an emergency and also, the fire department still has the week off.

Would Federal dollars be in play with that announcement?

Along the same lines:

Possibly. But what would they use the money for? Running ads during Fox News/OANN pleading with people to get the vaccine? Extra hospital beds/body bags while they wait it out?

This whole thing has been a complete joke. Trump completely ignored the immediate crisis all last year on the promise of a quick "miracle" vaccine which happened far faster than anyone thought possible. But by the time that happened, he lost the election. So, he and his party took a dump on the vaccine when they lost the Presidency and Congress, and now governors like this are using the same playbook - no addressing the immediate issue, everything is business as usual, the vaccine should take care of it. Except their followers have been taught not to trust the government or to give the other side a victory, so they won't get the vaccine.

Rinse/repeat.

Meanwhile the US is now #1 in the world, in terms of new covid cases over the last week, and a new (to us) Colombian variant has started spreading in Florida.

In shocking news, US has highest number of new cases in the world | TheHill

Another coronavirus variant has reached Florida. Here's what you need to know.

EPSILON VARIANT!

Any vaccine, but I think the situation with the COVID one is fundamentally different and there's more reason both to get it and not to in that case.


That's actually happened in my family in the case of the person who, partly due to the advice of their doctor, isn't getting the vaccine. Some others in the family are now on barely-speaking and never-visiting terms with them, and it's also driven somewhat of a wedge between those others and myself because I won't throw that decision under the bus. Those who've read what I've said here over the years know that I think we have to be better than this.

On the lack of empathy, I would again reference the polling data we have on this. There's some of that going on but others don't think the vaccine is safe. Not all of those by a long shot are in the governmental-conspiracy department. This is why we see health professionals being willing to lose their jobs in some places rather than get vaccinated, even when they've taken other more established vaccines.


Just a reminder that this *isn't* the case. Those who say they aren't vaccinated and don't intend to be isn't half. It's a quarter. That is not a small or trivial distinction. Approaching 70% of adults have one shot already.

This is the part that drives me crazy in bold. Whichever Tribe it is will inflate their numbers like when trump says, "Others say..."... No, there weren't others until you said it, then the others said it, and now you claim that they started the saying it but it was you.

The GREAT majority of those against the vaccine, and I mean GREAT, are in the category above (see my post that listed their pattern of support in the post I listed way up on the other page). They're consistent with their tribe and that is 99% political first and then scrambling for reasons other than political to support their already decided notion. Like that witch doctor who went on youtube and claims, women are raped in their sleep by their dreams. HELLO!!! She was cited in the beginning to support the hydrochloriquine / no vaccine mindset. AYFKM

Maybe these ladies can get the vaccine in 12-14 years.

https://www.nbcnews.com/nightly-news...e-117617221941

I watched that report during the news and thought the same thing. "Maybe my kid's kids won't have to deal with polio."

No they aren't. All what you posted shows is that the unvaccinated skew that direction to a degree, which I have agreed with. But the polling data I've cited repeatedly *also* shows that

** There are significant numbers of non-Republicans who don't want the vaccine, which means it's more than political. Again, just compare the polling on this to the polling on Trump. Far more Republicans are taking the vaccine than are negative on Trump; far more Democrats & independents are not taking the vaccine than are positive on Trump. This is an issue where there is significant public doubt, regardless of whether we think there *should* be or not.

** Safety concerns are cited by half the people who don't want the vaccine

** There's tribal bias the other way in terms of overestimating the probabilities of adverse outcomes from contracting COVID; Americans across the board have quite inaccurate assessments of the situation both directions

If it was 99% political first as you claim, it would be only Republicans not wanting the vaccine and almost all of them wouldn't want it. Both of those are simply not the case.

I am curious what those differences are. I think everyone should get the vaccine. I don't think it should be mandated. I find it interesting and confusing the amount of compassion and understanding being given to a minority of people who choose not to get the vaccine as opposed to those who say refuse to get the vaccine for chicken pox.

Disclaimer: I am not talking about those who have contraindications. I mean those who can get the vaccine but choose not to.

** There hasn't yet been time for long-term medical studies on both disease and vaccine. That means what we know, we know with a far smaller degree of confidence/certainty. The track record just isn't there, and can't be there, at this point.

** Other hand; we do have a high degree of confidence the virus is a much greater threat than the vaccine is. That's why I'm in favor of people taking it.

** The societal environment can't be ignored here either. The pandemic environment itself is a reason for suspicion. The more the establishment pushes for vaccine acceptance, the more those inclined to be independent and not accept what the establishment tells them distrust it. This goes far, far deeper than wacko nutjob conspiracy-theory types, they're just a subset of the larger group.

It's similar in my opinion to how during the second Gulf War there was a push to support the war or be branded a traitor etc. And then there was pushback on that as well. The pro-war narrative was distrusted for some people both because of how hard it was pushed and who it was that was doing the pushing. Tribalism is involved here of course but again it goes deeper than that. A lot of it comes down to 'who do you trust'. For those who don't trust the medical establishment - a group that is again much larger than anti-vaxxers and includes pretty much everyone with the slightest inclination towards alternative medicine/natural healing/etc. - talking heads on TV isn't going to cut it.

Delta has hit China. Nothing massive yet. It'll be interesting to see if China can stop it effectively. They've done a great job of containing it so far, estimated 57% fully vaccinated (I would have thought more by now).

https://www.washingtonpost.com/world...2d8_story.html

I see a booster shot in our future.

I know Biden donated some of the stockpile to other countries, assume he reserved what he needed in anticipation of boosters being needed.

Is this really big news though? Isn't this similar to the annual flu shot? Just mix it in with a flu shot (wll okay, maybe flu shot on left and Covid shot on right) and call it good. New normal.

Pfizer says immunity can drop to 83% within four months in people who got its COVID-19 shot, further bolstering the company case for a booster - MarketWatch

I appreciate this.

I still am not seeing the distinction between the nutjobs conspiracy types and the people who are more inclined to independent thought and not trust the medical establishment. It seems like the distinction comes from I know/like/agree with these people over here so they are in the latter category, while I don't know/don't like/ don't agree with those people over there so they are in the former. I am not talking about you specifically, I mean in general. I admit that is a me problem.

Your Gulf War example is very good and shows why I struggling with the compassion being shown in this instance.

My issue is not with those who chose not to follow the establishment line. I get that. I have seen that. I have seen how the society deals with and treats that minority group. My issue is the compassion that is being shown to that group when it come to COVID and why it is appearing in this case. Those who opposed the war were branded as traitors and were treated as such short of being put in front of a firing squad. They faced consequences that for some have lasted to this day. I am not saying it's right. I am saying that that is the way we as a society have handled people who did not support this country's wars in the past. That is the precedent. I suspect that is the way we are going to treat those that oppose wars in the future. I feel the same way with the current medical situation. There is a clear history that shows how we as a society deal with those who lean towards alternative medicine/natural healing/etc. We are not compassionate to them. We are not here to consider their distrust. That compassion hasn't been there in the past and I have zero confidence we are going to have the compassion moving forward when people who are more inclined to independent and not trust the whatever establishment in the future act in the future. The compassion is this current situation is an outlier IMO.

I would suggest two things possibly:

** Where do you see this compassion in action? I see a big cultural divide with the vaccinated having less and less tolerance for those who are not. That's been reflected on this board obviously but it goes far beyond that. My perception is that there's actually been less compassion here than in the example we're discussing, not more. So I'm quite curious what you're seeing that makes you not think that.


Here's how I personally would break it down. I have a former co-worker who is full-on QAnon and refers to the vaccine as the 'cemetery shot'. Short of a literal gun to their head, I don't think they'll ever take it, they're just that far gone barring a major psychic shift. They are extremely functional as a person and there are admirable things about their character, but in terms of the views of geopolitics I would unquestionably call them a nutjob.

I think being reticent about a vaccine that by established medical standards is still experimental is in a completely different category. People who simply prefer to largely not interact with the medical system any more than they have to are on one side, people who think it's actively out to get them are on another. Others may have different POVs but to me there's a pretty clear line between the two.

I think it's big news. Pre-pandemic, flu vaccine participation was typically a hair under 50%. A significant amount more people will be willing to get a one-time, two-shot vaccine than will consistently take boosters annually or more often. Basically, under this scenario I would be surprised if the annual vaccination rate approaches the current COVID ~ 70%.

[quote]
Ironically, the compassion is coming from the establishment.

https://www.huschblackwell.com/newsa...s#linktojump10

I don't remember such protective actions for the Gulf War opposition nor any alternative/natural medicine minorities. Especially if the majority believe the practice to be a public good.

There is A LOT of this. It's apparently a conservative value to be anti-vaxx (at least once Covid was turned into a political issue).

“I was strongly against getting the vaccine,” Barker said through labored breathing. “Just because we’re a strong conservative family.”https://t.co/j7nZLo5TDw

— Charlie Sykes (@SykesCharlie) July 30, 2021

I don't know if it's me and my viewing habits (watch CNN, Bloomberg TV, the Olympics, HGTV etc.) but I don't remember seeing/hearing PSA ads on getting vaccinated?

I read plenty about it online but don't remember seeing ads or billboards etc. I only listen to music when driving and admittedly that doesn't happen a lot nowadays. I don't remember hearing any radio station ads either.

In my line of work, when we do implementations we do "change programs", essentially a structured push out of information (and training) to those impacted to reduce hesitancy, resistance etc. and increase acceptance.

The Olympics is a pretty good 2 week period to start doing this.

I have seen PSAs on TV and heard them on the radio. I am not sure what good more PSAs would do. It seems that would be just another example of having the vaccine shoved down a person's throat for some.

A lot of philosophies of governance are based on the axiom that people act in their own self interest. And that self-preservation is a universally shared value.

Now that we are learning that people will literally die to own the libs, it has to change the persuasion calculus a bit on a whole range of issues.

I tried for a few moments, again, to understand what being conservative has to do with opposing vaccines. "Owning the libs" I guess is a fair explanation. They just want to make liberals mad at them. I definitely am mad. But I'd rather be mad than on a ventilator, so, I win I guess.

I take it as a shortcut of the response: "The people who I listen to in the media and in politics identify as conservative, and they've warned against the vaccine or that the risk of the virus isn't that bad, so I'm not getting it." I can definitely see how that can become the reality that GOP/Fox News is against it and I have always voted GOP, so I have to adopt this as my stance. Because, you know, RINO and all that if you break in any way from the talking points.

I still think this is an example of there being less acceptance if you dig deeper. Why are those types of things even being contemplated? With the Gulf War/alternative medicine examples, pre-COVID you didn't have aspects such as 'follow societies line or you can't do basic activities'. I.e., nobody contemplated mandating people to have certain medical treatments or political beliefs if they wanted to go to a grocery store, have their hair cut, eat at a restaurant, fly on an airplane, etc. In the service business it would have been considered absolutely beyond the pale to even think about asking a customer what vaccines/etc. they had and use that as a consideration from whether or not they can frequent your establishment.

These laws are all examples of pushback against the kinds of policies that were never even under consideration in those examples.

@molson stop trying to understand… the guy above says we’re all wrong and it’s not political on the whole. The outliers are the political ones… not Vice versa
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He’s wrong


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Actually that's not what I said at all. I suggest re-reading the actual posts I made with the data to back them up, which I note nobody has yet interacted with, in contrast to how I've treated the supporting statements others such as yourself have made.

yet you are completely ignoring the data that shows 14 of the lowest 15 states in vaccinations are overwhelmingly red states.

Coincidence because science is wrong on this and climate change both!!! MAGA!!!


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No, I'm not ignoring it at all. That fits in quite well with what I said.




I've literally been agreeing that there is a significant political element since the beginning of this conversation. All it takes is a small one to make vaccination rates lower in states that lean one direction politically, that's how statistics work. And the skew in this case isn't small.

It also isn't the overwhelming, dominant factor that has been repeatedly claimed. But I don't know how to say it in a way to get it through to you, Flasch, etc. that I'm not dismissing the political element. I'm just not willing to flagrantly lie and character assassinate those who refuse the vaccine for other reasons and pretend that the number of them is tiny, because it isn't.

Except that I've been anti-Trump since he announced his candidacy, didn't vote for him in either election, voted Biden in 2020, and am ardently in favor of more aggressive climate change policy.

Literally none of this applies. And that's without getting into how much the science has changed over time on COVID, to the point where statements that were getting removed from social media as 'disinformation' are now being made by official government spokespeople as facts to accept.

You're free to explain to me anytime you want why significant numbers of Democrats, Independents, apolitical people etc don't want the vaccine, but yet it's all political. I'm all for engagement on that. What we have now though is conspiracy-level behavior, where I present counter-evidence, it's ignored and blatantly false caricature of what I've actually said is propounded in contrast to what I actually did say.

the problem is that the amount of people on the right who are anti vax are the reason we are in this spot and are screwing it up for the rest of us. If there was an equal amount of vaccine hesitant on the right as there are on the left we would be a lot better off. If the red states had the same levels of vaccinated as blue states we would be looking at putting this behind us instead of bracing or more lockdowns. That is why it is largely political.

Again, that just doesn't square with the facts. The poll numbers I mentioned showed (as of a month ago, I don't have more recent data than that) that unvaccinated Democrats are half as many as unvaccinated Republicans. That means Republicans have more responsibility there. It doesn't mean they have all of it. It doesn't mean that they are screwing it up for the rest of us.

That's just a flat-out counterfactual take to make it that one-sided. If we blame those Republicans, we have to also blame those Democrats who aren't taking it proportionally. I know that doesn't fit the narrative/axe to grind, but it's also just the way it is.


We don't know that. We'd be in a better situation sure, but we don't know that would be enough to prevent more restrictions. The more vaccinated the better, but nobody knows for sure where that line is, where states and communities are going to draw the line, etc. The fact that California - as blue as they get - is ramping up restrictions shows that this simply isn't so.

Man, what a shock to find Brian in here absolutely whipping the shit out of the weathered corpses of several people's internet generalizations.

Speaking about facts, let's add another data point to the conversation.

Looks like Asians have been pretty good. Whites, Blacks, Hispanics vaccinations have been below their relative population. However, in the last "14 days" there's a marked uptick for Blacks and Hispanics.

FWIW, this is based on at least 1 shot. You would think they have the info for 2 shots (fully-vaccinated) so not sure why they don't share that info.

There's another chart in the link that shows the breakdown by states. It shows GA pretty much same as broader US.

Latest Data on COVID-19 Vaccinations by Race/Ethnicity | KFF

Man, what a shock to find someone falsely accusing me of doing that, and in so doing creating an environment where apparently it's not appropriate for me to challenge any statement in a debate forum. Take statements such as this:


I don't know how to translate GREAT into an exact number, but based on the wording here I'd definitely put it upwards of 90%. Either way though, this isn't a generalization. It is a fairly specific claim that can be evaluated. It's either true, or it's not.

Similarly with what Lathum just said. Specific claim. These can be evaluated for veracity. This kind of exchange of ideas are what debate forums are *for*. I can challenge the ideas, they can show me where they think I'm wrong, we can have a back and forth. That's what we do here, is it not?

Unabashedly, the latest news about fully vaccinated people who are infected with Delta, having the "same amount of virus" as unvaccinated, has made me think about stocking up on toilet paper (and other stuff) during my weekly shopping run tomorrow.

I think the odds are low < 10% that this will cause near the same level of havoc as last year (e.g. we are about 70% with at least 1-shot vaccinated). But last year has shown that we will eventually eat through the stored pasta, rice, spam, soups, bacon (!) etc.



On a side note, I've been clearing my throat, have a slight runny nose. No fever. I was in FL during July 4 week so it would be about 3 weeks since. Reading about FL being a top 3 state for new infections makes me wonder if I should get tested.

The argument isn't how many in each but the delta between the tribe's #'s and their numbers. THAT shows the pol. poison in it.

The commentary isn't about you although you baffle me in your willingness to imagine things in the face of overwhelming statistics but that of the actual groups that are so unbelieabl\y consistent in their theme(s).

I think we're 20-30 days away from rolling shutdowns and mandates...

Go get tested and stock up on things you'll use anyways.

That is literally contrary to what you said earlier in the thread. We're now shifting the goalposts from claiming that almost everyone against the vaccine is doing it for political reasons to no, it actually doesn't matter what % of people think that way for political reasons, the fact that there is a political correlation at all is all that matters, and of course the fact that 'our' tribe is also misinformed and wrong on the pandemic also doesn't matter and isn't political poison we're going to care about.

As a matter of basic logic, this demonstrates itself then to not actually be about the vaccine or science at all, but abound finding a sword to wield against the tribe we don't like. Because if it's about the vaccine, then we absolutely have to care about how many are in each camp.


Just flat-out making things up. I've provided the statistics that back me up, and show my statements to be provably far more accurate than the ones you've made. That's the opposite of imagining things.

Brian, we do this all the time. We have said that a business has the right to refuse as long as it has legitimate reasons and applies that standard to everyone. We have laws that prevent people from practicing certain aspects of alternative medicine in the name of the public good. Go back and read some of the stories from the AIDS crisis in the 80's and tell me people were not restricted from basic activities due to their medical conditions, PERCEIVED medical conditions, or political beliefs.

Again, I am not saying it was right. I am explicitly saying that it is wrong. What I am saying that states passing laws to protect the rights of a small subset of people by blocking legislation that MIGHT be put in place for the greater public good does not happen. That takes a certain amount of compassion for the legitimate plight of that small subset of people. We rarely if ever take the initiative to do that.

We didn't even do serious shutdowns in spring 2020 when this started. A few closed restaurants was about it. They were mandating masks in Walmart yesterday where my girlfriend was, and they had more pissed off vaccinated people than anti-vax/anti-maskers.

@brian no, you’re wrong and twisting into pretzels to claim you’re right

We’re all saying that the broad red tribe has blended their political bend, their leaders misinformation and attack the liberals no matter what into denying covid is real and anti vax and the statewide numbers and broad statistics prove it. Hello!!! Red states = less vaccines… where’s the biggest hospitalizations and morbidity? I mean it’s over dude… the stars on every channel when you remove the talking head are clear as day.


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I think I knew the below already.

Covid vaccinations in the US: Here's what we know about the people not getting the shot | CNN

The reasons they give


FWIW, for me the key takeaway on vaccine hesitancy is beyond the simple Trump/GOP vs Democrats. No doubt there is more Trump/GOP that are unwilling but there are other dimensions to factor in such as age and race (mistrust of government, mistrust of science etc.).

Hard to understand the severity but article says it was due to airplane cleaners (which implies it originated from passengers on the plane). I'm all for screening passengers, not just being fully vaccinated but also negative test a couple days before. Even with the screening though, I think flying on a plane (especially internationally, thinking of you PM) is a crap shoot right now.

I do hope China can control the spread. Removing human rights/freedoms from the equation, it's pretty obvious they did a great job specifically in containing the spread last year. They share borders and have easy access to way too many Asian countries. Good thing the traditional mass traveling for Chinese NY isn't around the corner.

In China, A Coronavirus Delta Variant Outbreak Spreads To 15 Cities : Coronavirus Updates : NPR

@edward thank you

It may not be 💯 but it’s damn sure closer to it than 0 on the spectrum of why they’re doing it

Even they will twist themselves into pretzels to justify why instead of just saying they have doubts because the people they’ve been listening to have told them to doubt it


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I'm not the one twisting. This is not the same thing as what you were claiming earlier in the thread. Meanwhile my position hasn't changed. You have zero evidence, none whatsoever, that I've twisted anything. I've cited hard data and let the chips fall where they may based on that. You've grossly exaggerated the information you've cited, and disregarded entirely that which doesn't fit your narrative. It's pretty clear who is doing what here.

Anybody who has been through an entry-level statistics course can tell you that the statewide numbers & broad statistics do not support the degree of impact that you have asserted. It would be like me claiming that we have environmental problems because the majority of the highest-polluting states are blue states - an absurd and facile argument that is only skin deep.

It’s a comparison of red people versus blue and the motivations of those red to not get vaccinated

What do you think we’re talking about

As a comparison you just have nothing to disprove the myriad of stats flooding at you but you can continue to deflect if you want to

The fact is a LARGE % that have chosen not to get vaccinated have done so because they’re entrapped by the MAGA motivations which corresponds to the other planks of the beliefs so you can see the circle. In turn they also tribally want to stick it to the libs which also correlates and unfortunately is getting them killed.

Can you find anecdotal outliers and convince yourself that since it’s not 💯 that it is untrue but it’s just fantastic. Facts are facts and this is basic.

That being said I also recognize that debate on what is like basics here imo it’s not accomplishing anything and you’ll never see the same thing others are seeing and that’s fine but in the mean time, the above statements I’ve made and people’s intransigence is getting them killed.


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I respectfully disagree. There was a good deal of hysteria with the AIDS crisis but nothing that remotely approached the scale of what has happened during the COVID pandemic. There hasn't been anything of this magnitude in modern history, both in terms of the health threat and the reaction to it. I just don't think anything related to COVID can rightly be compared, the situation is just far different in terms of scope, magnitude, etc. unless you go back to pre-modern times in which case there are a whole host of other distinctions that make it not relevant either.

Just yesterday you said it wasn't:



Literally nothing I've been saying is about finding outliers. I also didn't say it had to be 100%, but you yourself said it was nearly that:


I've shown that a significant number of those who don't want the vaccine aren't even part of the red tribe. You literally don't have to go any further than that. If you aren't in the tribe, you can't be making a decision based on loyalty to that tribe that you aren't loyal to in the first place. Just to repeat one of the key data points that continues to be ignored, a third of those who say they aren't getting the vaccine are not Republicans. Even if you assume that 100% of those who are Republicans are doing it because MAGA - which again the polling doesn't support at all - the claims you made about the degree of political motivation among the unvaccinated *still* wouldn't pass muster.

You are right about this being about facts and being basic. Which makes it all the more amazing that you simply won't engage with most of those facts so far. I hope you will choose to do so.

In California I definitely know some people who are far from being republican and against the vaccine. These tend to be either anti trusting government/ everybody paranoid individuals or more natural remedy not into anything pharmaceutical (this group tends to be very liberal)

Lost in this pedantry is the fact that the messaging is practically entirely split across party lines & while there certainly may be many individuals that identify as liberal/progressive/Democrat who are anti covid-vaccination those folks can all point to elected officials in positions of authority that actively support & enable that position & practically every one of those officials is Republican.


Further, the suggestion that there are many Democrats who are anti covid-vaccination now, which proves that the current vaccine hesitancy is non-political, is based on some fantasy where the anti-vaccination movement didn't exist before covid. The fact that covid vax deniers are 30% Democrats isn't remarkable because it isn't 100% Republican, it's remarkable because just a decade before covid/Trump vax hesitancy was a 50/50 split in terms of party affiliation. When taken in context that figure only supports the suggestion that this is political, rather than disproving it.

Stop

You must be lying and skewing facts


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

That hasn't prompted significant numbers of Democrats to view Trump favorably or support Republican policies they'd otherwhise be against. If people in leadership positions caused them to be anti-vax, they'd also be causing them to agree in other areas. We can't just cherry-pick this issue and say GOP pols pushed them in this area but had no discernible affect in others. That is a far more relevant context.

As is often the case after 3+ pages, the original discussion topic is no longer clear due to tangents and nuance that were not present originally. Suggest the affected group may want to concisely and succinctly recap their position ... or just let it die on the vine.

********

Now to some more polling data. Just saw this in NYT and it's analysis on just who these vaccine hesistant/refusenik critters are.

https://www.nytimes.com/2021/07/31/u...americans.html

Why People Remain Unvaccinated

• Side effects 53%
• Waiting to see if safe 40%
• Don't trust vaccines 37%
• Don't trust government 27%
• Don't believe I need it 26%
• Other 16%
• Think other people need it more 11%
• Don't like vaccines 10%
• Doctor has not recommended 7%
• Concerned about cost 3

How Two Groups of the Unvaccinated Compare
Race
Wait and See vs Definitely not

• Black 22% 5%
• Hispanic 20% 11%
• White 49% 70%

(I don't get how the White polling can be greater than 100%)

Party
Wait and See vs Definitely not

• Democrat 39% 12%
• Republican 41% 67%

What May Motivate the Unvaccinated to Get a Shot
The question to the Wait & See group, the top 4 answers were (1) full FDA approval (2) available from personal physician (3) required to fly and (4) required for large gatherings.


The FDA approval is not something I've considered. But in retrospect, I can see it. Emergency Use Authorization = not fully tested. Don't know the FDA inner workings but assume this would normally take years which we obviously don't have.

As I proposed in a prior post, I believe Biden needs a really good "change program". It needs more PSA ads showing covidiots on ventilators/widowers etc. telling people to get vaccinated. It needs more black and hispanic celebrities using their platform to encourage followers.

The required to fly is a no brainer. Required for large gatherings like church is more problematic but would be nice. I don't get the available from personal physician ... are there GPs that don't have jabs available?

As a special bonus, the article included a quote that I choked on.

I think that's a good example of how much differently people view the pandemic. From the perspective of a non-trivial amount of people, that's actually a perfectly reasonable thing to say. The pandemic hasn't affected them much, so they don't see it as being a real crisis.

I can see them saying it. However, to believe its not a "pandemic" because it hasn't affected them much (but they know has affected millions worldwide) is a pretty poor and selfish (?) definition.

Nevertheless, these folks fall into my Group #2. Never going to get them to change until there are literally bodies lying in the streets.

Here in Florida, we just recorded the highest one-day total of new COVID cases since the start of the pandemic. Governor Ron DeathSantis blames the surge on a "seasonal increase" due to more Floridians being indoors because of the hot weather with air conditioning circulating the virus.

Florida breaks record with more than 21,000 new COVID cases

Yesterday I was surprised at how many people were getting away with not wearing a mask in the Jacksonville airport.

I wore one for twenty something hours yesterday over 3 flights and 4 airports going home. I really don't know how medical professionals do it.

It didn't take me long to get to the point where I barely even notice I'm wearing a mask.

I'm more flabbergasted by reading shit like "only 60% of hospital employees vaccinated" or "only 37% of patient care technicians vaccinated". Florida way ahead of the pack showing how autumn will look elsewhere despite not even having super low vaccination rate among the older age groups.

People looking at the UK with their 95%+ ration for 50+ (since the start of July) are fooling themselves thinking "oh, but it's only 15/20% lower here !" when the real Denominator is: That's 4-5 times more people unprotected.

I truly wanna relax, but it just makes me insanely angry thinking about people i care about again having procedures delayed or some Shit because too many people even with a clearly considereably high risk refuse what is essentially a preventative wonder drug given it's still miraculous 90-95% risk reduction for hospitalisation all things (age, condition etc) being equal. And remember that average age in hospital has always been way lower than of those dying. Quite ironically many of the most vulnerable aren't the ones in hospital and especially not the ICU because they simply can't be effectively treated because they wouldn't survive mechanical ventilation (much less ECMO).

5000 idiots, seemingly half of them filming themselves, playing guerilla war with police in Berlin does not help feel more mellow.

You must not wear glasses (e.g. fogging issue).

It took me a short while and little unease to get use to not wearing a mask. Mask free now but anticipating to mask up again soon.

I can’t believe this is a conversation now, but get masks with the metal strip on the top, pinch it across your nose… hey presto, no fogging :banghead:

A Classic headline

WV Gov Wanted to 'Pee and Throw Up' Over Delta Variant Info

Yeah, this whole Delta variant thing though -- if this gets one side to finally worry, good -- they will finally maybe take this seriously. At the same time I feel like their take is going to be that up until now, we really didn't need to be worried (it was just the cold until it mutated), and we would have been better off and less fatigued if everyone hadn't been crying wolf this whole time.

I first saw this ridiculous argument yesterday. The vaccine stops the common variant from making you sick, but doesn't keep you from transmitting the virus, so it mutated because of the vaccine.

There are really not good numbers locally.

Weekly Average Of Daily New Covid-19 Positive Cases - Texas Medical Center

We've basically doubled cases each of the last 4 weeks. We were hanging out at 100-200 cases a day for about a month. But now we've gone to 300 -> 500 -> 1000 -> 2200. Not great, Bob.

Weekly Average Of Covid-19 Testing Metrics Across TMC Hospital Systems - Texas Medical Center
Test positivity: 2% for a month plus. Now 3.1 -> 4.2 -> 5.7 -> 9.1 (!) -> 11.5.

This is looking an awful lot like what we saw before the previous two awful spikes here (last summer was worse, in a lot of ways, than last winter here in Houston if you remember the stories about our hospitals filling up then). We were looking so good a couple of months ago, too. But, damn.

SI

Right you are. I'm borderline for them right now. Within the next few years it'll happen.

Edit: That's ... horrible news SI.

Had HR call me at noon because someone asked them why I was wearing a mask. I wanted to say, because I fucking can, but I left it at my daughter isn't vax eligible for a month and we have additional health concerns at home (wife has a heart condition).

I've had a few people ask and I've mildly explained it, but why the fuck go to HR about it.

We had a really thoughtful employee email setting forth all the guidelines, which was important for a red state, in a public agency. Very specific guidelines. I'd rather vaccines be mandated across the board, (state law prohibits that), but at least we have rules like if someone comes into your office with a mask on, you have to put your mask on too. Nobody can ask anyone else about their vaccine status or their mask choice. And we did get a vacation time bonus if we are vaccinated (which was a tip-toeing around the rules, but a clear signal about what the office preference is.)


That's just ridiculous. HR should have told them to shut the fuck up and warn them not to bother you.

sorry you had to deal with karen , ghost :(

We have a mask mandate on our production floor (but not in offices or cubes). I have noticed there are a group of people who feel that if 20-30% of people wear masks when they don't have to, it's going to eventually force them to wear a mask against their will. So, they lash out on anyone wearing a mask who isn't 100% required.

It's sad (esp when people have legit health reasons), but I have noticed it a bunch here in Arizona.