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-   -   The Official MLB 2007 Thread (http://forums.operationsports.com/fofc//showthread.php?t=57945)

Logan 05-19-2007 09:38 AM

Oliver Perez continues to impress. What I liked best was how last week against MIL, he was unhittable with electric stuff: 8.1 IP, 2 H, 1 R, 2 BB, 6 K. So last night comes around, and it's clear from the start that he's not hitting his spots. But instead of walking the park, he bears down and just gets outs. 7.2 IP, 5 H, 2 R on a Matsui HR, 2 BB, 5 K. Great sign for a young pitcher.

As soon as his pitches started flying around in the 1st, I was sure the Yanks would have a 9 spot up by the 5th. Good job kid.

Buccaneer 05-19-2007 11:21 AM

I love it when the Pads are the only ones to win in the division as happened last night.

sterlingice 05-19-2007 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chief Rum (Post 1467586)
And 3 of 4 of them were from the A's. Thanks!


Almost stole the 4th game but we'll take 3 of 4 any day.

SI

ISiddiqui 05-19-2007 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Logan (Post 1467648)
Oliver Perez continues to impress. What I liked best was how last week against MIL, he was unhittable with electric stuff: 8.1 IP, 2 H, 1 R, 2 BB, 6 K. So last night comes around, and it's clear from the start that he's not hitting his spots. But instead of walking the park, he bears down and just gets outs. 7.2 IP, 5 H, 2 R on a Matsui HR, 2 BB, 5 K. Great sign for a young pitcher.

As soon as his pitches started flying around in the 1st, I was sure the Yanks would have a 9 spot up by the 5th. Good job kid.


Yeah, he's been doing a really good job. I knew he was better than his record last year, but he's really exceeding my expectations.

DaddyTorgo 05-19-2007 01:39 PM

Red Sox: 7
Braves: baffled by Dice-K

Mike Lowell just hit a slam over the monster in the 5th.
ATL's starter lasted 2 innings

Atocep 05-19-2007 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Logan (Post 1467648)
Oliver Perez continues to impress. What I liked best was how last week against MIL, he was unhittable with electric stuff: 8.1 IP, 2 H, 1 R, 2 BB, 6 K. So last night comes around, and it's clear from the start that he's not hitting his spots. But instead of walking the park, he bears down and just gets outs. 7.2 IP, 5 H, 2 R on a Matsui HR, 2 BB, 5 K. Great sign for a young pitcher.

As soon as his pitches started flying around in the 1st, I was sure the Yanks would have a 9 spot up by the 5th. Good job kid.



Rick Peterson deserves a lifetime contract for the work he's done with Perez (and Glavine, and El Duque, and Maine). When they got him he was in AAA topping out at 85-87mph and couldn't get the ball over the plate. Now he's back to 92-94mph with amazing movement. He also has just 16 walks in 49.2 innings, with 7 of those walks coming in a short outing a few starts ago.

I noticed he didn't exactly have his best stuff yesterday, too, and I expected a very short outing and a Mets loss. Was nice to see him last into the 8th only allowing the homer to Matsui. He's always been a pitcher with #1 starter stuff, now he's actually learning how to pitch.

Fouts 05-19-2007 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ksyrup (Post 1467609)
Watched the end of the Yankees game. So much fun. They lose the first game against the Mets with Pettitte on the mound, and now have to face Glavine and Maine with Razner and some dude making his MLB debut.


Rasner out with a fractured finger in the 1st. Yankees gonna have to find another starter.

Young Drachma 05-20-2007 12:26 PM

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/19/sp.../19giambi.html

Quote:

Because Giambi was speaking publicly about steroids for the first time and did not say he was misquoted, Commissioner Bud Selig will investigate the matter and will probably ask to meet with him for clarification. Some Yankees executives spoke with Major League Baseball officials yesterday about Giambi’s remarks and possible ramifications, but neither side would discuss specifics.

“I think the commissioner’s office is going to be looking into it, so at this point, I just can’t comment on it,” General Manager Brian Cashman said.

Pat Courtney, a spokesman for Major League Baseball, would not say if Selig planned to meet with Giambi. If he wants to punish Giambi, Selig could try to invoke his authority regarding “the best interests of baseball,” which has been used by commissioners in the past.

This has no legs. No way they can void his contract without any evidence of stuff that happened YEARS ago.

Atocep 05-20-2007 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud (Post 1468031)
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/19/sp.../19giambi.html



This has no legs. No way they can void his contract without any evidence of stuff that happened YEARS ago.


Not exactly the best way to encourage cooperation with the Mitchell investigation....

Schmidty 05-20-2007 02:39 PM

Nice sweep by the Tigs over the Cards.

They're just getting warmed up it seems....

ISiddiqui 05-20-2007 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atocep (Post 1468034)
Not exactly the best way to encourage cooperation with the Mitchell investigation....


Yeah, really... I mean Giambi has probably been more honest about steroids in baseball in a 2 second quote than the rest of the sport has been over the last decade. To try to void his contract over that is absolutely absurd.

larrymcg421 05-20-2007 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo (Post 1467778)
Red Sox: 7
Braves: baffled by Dice-K

Mike Lowell just hit a slam over the monster in the 5th.
ATL's starter lasted 2 innings


And the Braves return the favor in the nightcap.

Atocep 05-20-2007 03:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui (Post 1468114)
Yeah, really... I mean Giambi has probably been more honest about steroids in baseball in a 2 second quote than the rest of the sport has been over the last decade. To try to void his contract over that is absolutely absurd.



His honesty is coming across as very fake to me. He has an agenda that he's playing to get some public support.

If you read the interview with USA Today he admits to using steroids, but then goes on to say steroids don't help hitters. That leads me to believe he still doesn't think he did anything wrong or its just not that big of a deal, he just wants wants some positive publicity. Also, if steroids didn't help hitters, why is he calling on the people that used to appologize?

Now, trying to void his contract is absurd and if baseball is going to investigate and try to suspend him its even worse. Baseball has an ongoing investigation in which they've publicly complained about lack of cooperation from players and ballclubs. Why the hell would anyone cooperate if they're going to use that information to void contracts and suspend players?

ISiddiqui 05-20-2007 03:46 PM

I don't understand why, years after the fact, he'd bring it back up to "get some public support". Seems to me, you'd just keep your mouth shut about it and let other people get tagged. It wasn't like he was in any danger of losing his job or anything.

Young Drachma 05-20-2007 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui (Post 1468136)
I don't understand why, years after the fact, he'd bring it back up to "get some public support". Seems to me, you'd just keep your mouth shut about it and let other people get tagged. It wasn't like he was in any danger of losing his job or anything.


Exactly. I think the guy is truly remorseful and that he's telling the truth. If you've watched carefully over the past few weeks, more and more guys -- under the radar -- are making comments basically saying, "I play baseball. I do this for a living. You're not telling me that this is going to put a guy over the top." And then usually, in reference to the Bonds discussion, they basically say what a lot of us have been saying all along.

If he's juiced and is still doing crap that no one else has come CLOSE to doing, how can you single him out?

But regardless, I think Giambi should be left alone. MLB is a joke, Selig is a scumbag and they need to just go ahead, embrace what's been said here and move on. No one really cares and we all know that they're not going to expunge their records -- nor should they.

The steroid era is an ugly time, we all know that. But given that we'll never know the "truth", trying to conduct a witchhunt for the purposes of appeasing losers in Congress who are too busy ignoring what we've sent them there for, is far more phony than any apology from Giambi.

MrBug708 05-20-2007 05:28 PM

Somehow the Dodgers lose three straight to the Angels. Such a farcry from last year where the Dodgers managed to go 4-2. Such is the life I guess.

It was good to see the Angels using the Dodgers to set attendance records though...

Chief Rum 05-20-2007 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrBug708 (Post 1468193)
Somehow the Dodgers lose three straight to the Angels. Such a farcry from last year where the Dodgers managed to go 4-2. Such is the life I guess.

It was good to see the Angels using the Dodgers to set attendance records though...


Somehow? You must not have paid attention. 19-4. That was the collective score of the series. The Angels didn't "somehow" win. They thrashed the Dodgers in every phase of the game.

Last year is last year. Sad that you feel you must go to last year or to ripping attendance figures to make you feel better about your team. But then when the scoreboard looks like that, I guess you'll go far lengths to find small straws of moral victory grasp at.

MrBug708 05-20-2007 05:45 PM

lol

Too predictable...

The Dodgers bats are cold and the Angels hit well. Too many things went right for the Angels. I have no qualms about that, it's the nature of the game

Atocep 05-20-2007 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dark Cloud (Post 1468140)
Exactly. I think the guy is truly remorseful and that he's telling the truth. If you've watched carefully over the past few weeks, more and more guys -- under the radar -- are making comments basically saying, "I play baseball. I do this for a living. You're not telling me that this is going to put a guy over the top." And then usually, in reference to the Bonds discussion, they basically say what a lot of us have been saying all along.



I don't see how a guy can be considered remorseful when in the same interview that he appologizes he tries to lessen the impact of what he did. Is that really remorse?

To call out baseball and other players to appologize when he doesn't see it as something that even helps players is lo. Its a way of taking the moral high ground so he feels better about himself and to get fan support. Nothing to do with remorse.

Chief Rum 05-20-2007 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrBug708 (Post 1468201)
lol

Too predictable...

The Dodgers bats are cold and the Angels hit well. Too many things went right for the Angels. I have no qualms about that, it's the nature of the game


If you mean, "too predictable" in that I would respond to you disrespecting my team, yeah, glad to be predictable. Better that than taking pot shots at the team that just wiped the outfield grass with yours.

MrBug708 05-20-2007 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chief Rum (Post 1468216)
If you mean, "too predictable" in that I would respond to you disrespecting my team, yeah, glad to be predictable. Better that than taking pot shots at the team that just wiped the outfield grass with yours.


Your comments are much more disrespectful then mine were but *shrugs*

Chief Rum 05-20-2007 07:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrBug708 (Post 1468230)
Your comments are much more disrespectful then mine were but *shrugs*


Dude, you're kidding, right? Unprovoked, you come on and take digs at the Angels after they beat your team bad. Do you really think your actions have no consequences? Are you that blind to the lunacy of your posts? If I am disrespectful, it is only because I am reacting in kind. Your actions deserve no better.

At last I resorted to the most recent and relevant and spoke about the teams on the field now. You had to take shots at the fans and last year's team.

The Dodgers are actually my second favorite team. My brother is a diehard fan. Although I want my Angels to win, I know this sweep hurts him, and for him as well as my secondary allegiance, I feel bad that it hasn't been so close.

But fans like you are the reason why there is hate between otherwise perfectly harmonious franchises who for the most part co-exist in the same are peacefully.

My good luck to the Dodgers and to their fans who don't resort to the sorts of psost you make. My comments are in no way a reflection of how I actualyl feel about the Dodgers or their general fan base. It is entirely reserved for pathetic fan bashing like Bug did.

MrBug708 05-20-2007 07:19 PM

Why? The Dodgers, heading into this series, had a better record then the Angels. The matchups failed the Dodgers. Again, I tip my hat at the Angels for beating the Dodgers rather surprisingly.

As for the fans, I can remember when the Angels had hardly anyone at the games. Now it's full of bandwagon fans who seem to think that the Angels are the greatest thing since sliced bread. I'm sorry if you took offense to anything I said, but the Angels fans (wasn't really including you to start with but whatever) are on the whole, not a really intelligent group of fans who really seem to think baseball is a rather new concept. I liken thtem to USC fans barely hoping on the bandwagon and couldn't tell you who Mike Van Raphorst (spelling might be off)

Chief Rum 05-20-2007 07:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrBug708 (Post 1468244)
Why? The Dodgers, heading into this series, had a better record then the Angels. The matchups failed the Dodgers. Again, I tip my hat at the Angels for beating the Dodgers rather surprisingly.

As for the fans, I can remember when the Angels had hardly anyone at the games. Now it's full of bandwagon fans who seem to think that the Angels are the greatest thing since sliced bread. I'm sorry if you took offense to anything I said, but the Angels fans (wasn't really including you to start with but whatever) are on the whole, not a really intelligent group of fans who really seem to think baseball is a rather new concept. I liken thtem to USC fans barely hoping on the bandwagon and couldn't tell you who Mike Van Raphorst (spelling might be off)


I see, it's matchups why you guys lost, huh? Can't be because the Angels are a better team, I guess. It just goes to show how amazing matchups are when they can explain away a 15-run deficit over three games. If you didn't again downplay the Angels with your first sentences, I suppose I would find your "tip of the hat" more believable.

I can remember when there was hardly anyone here, too. I can remember when there was hardly anyone at Dodgers games, too. And Raiders games. And Rams games. And UCLA games. And USC games. And...do you get my point? Only team in this area that draws well at all times regardless of record is the Lakers. Don't mistake the Angels fans as somehow being any more bandwagonish than the rest of the Sourthern California. This has always been a fair weather town, and you know it.

Angels fans are no more or less intelligent than other fans. I'm not going to bash a whole group of fans because of my impressions on a few. It's sad that you have no such qualms to having bigoted views like that.

I would further dismiss your impression, too, because I would guess that since you are from San Gabriel Valley, you don't have much of a clue about the Angels' primary fanbase anyway (Orange County).

MrBug708 05-20-2007 07:41 PM

I live in San Gabriel Valeey, but it doesnt mean I'm not privy to the Orange County Matt.

And when was the time the Dodgers didn't have a very good attendance record? You do know that more people have seen the Dodgers then any other sports franchise...

Atocep 05-20-2007 07:46 PM

Is Tyler Clippard pitching for the Yankees or Clay Aiken?

Crapshoot 05-20-2007 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrBug708 (Post 1468253)
I live in San Gabriel Valeey, but it doesnt mean I'm not privy to the Orange County Matt.

And when was the time the Dodgers didn't have a very good attendance record? You do know that more people have seen the Dodgers then any other sports franchise...


To be fair, if they measured attendance in either the 2nd or the 8th inning...

Young Drachma 05-20-2007 09:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atocep (Post 1468257)
Is Tyler Clippard pitching for the Yankees or Clay Aiken?


Either way, he's doing pretty well.

Chief Rum 05-20-2007 11:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrBug708 (Post 1468253)
I live in San Gabriel Valeey, but it doesnt mean I'm not privy to the Orange County Matt.

And when was the time the Dodgers didn't have a very good attendance record? You do know that more people have seen the Dodgers then any other sports franchise...


Lot easier to see a team when it's right smack in the middle of the second largest population center in the country with 56,000 capacity, isn't it? Given the games played, their location, their longevity and the size of the stadium, I should darn well hope they were seen bya lot of people. Your statement is kinda like "you do know that the Yankees make more money than any other franchise...". Well, duuuuuuuuuhhhhh...

Even when they are drawing at their top levels, the Dodgers average about 80% capacity. And that's paying numbers--LA corporations do a lot of the buying of the pricier spots, and those seats like as not don't even get filled.

Meanwhile, the Angels are 90% or more pretty much every night except the odd Tuesday, and have been for five years running now. And those seats are filled, a sea of red.

MrBug708 05-21-2007 12:21 AM

I could have sworn that the Angels player in the middle of the second largest population center in the country. And yes the Dodgers do average more in a bigger stadium, but seeing as how the Angels don't sell out their own staidum, what good would a 56K stadium do for the Angels?

Chief Rum 05-21-2007 12:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrBug708 (Post 1468397)
I could have sworn that the Angels player in the middle of the second largest population center in the country. And yes the Dodgers do average more in a bigger stadium, but seeing as how the Angels don't sell out their own staidum, what good would a 56K stadium do for the Angels?


More seats means more cheap seats. By and large it's the same number of seats close to the field. It's in the upper levels and around the stadium that seats are added. There is a logjam to get tickets for most Angels games, and getting tickets for prime series (Oakland, Dodgers, Yanks, Red Sox) is practically impossible if yoiu weren't there the day one-day tickets went on sale.

I could walk up to the Dodger Stadium box office and buy a ticket that day to see them play the Giants. The Giants!

And if you think Anaheim is in the middle of the population center, you really are out of touch with where Orange County is, for all your sworn knowledge of it. There are about 15 M people within 45 mins drive of Dodger Stadium. It's probably closer to 6-7 at best for Angel Stadium, as West LA and the Valley are certainly not in convenient driving time to the OC, and Riverside isn't populous enough at all to make up the difference.

We're more off to the side. You can't view downtown LA from any of the hills near Angel Stadium.

Karlifornia 05-21-2007 12:34 AM

Watching MrBug and ChiefRum go at it is pretty much better than anything that has ever happened.

larrymcg421 05-21-2007 12:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karlifornia (Post 1468406)
Watching MrBug and ChiefRum go at it is pretty much better than anything that has ever happened.


What's really funny is that it seemed to be a pretty innocuous statement that started it all.

Ksyrup 05-21-2007 06:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ISiddiqui (Post 1468136)
I don't understand why, years after the fact, he'd bring it back up to "get some public support". Seems to me, you'd just keep your mouth shut about it and let other people get tagged. It wasn't like he was in any danger of losing his job or anything.


I agree. Somehow, he got himself back in the good graces of Yankees fans and even most baseball fans long before this. This statement was unnecessary, but seemed to be a "too little, too late" comment that might get him in some trouble. I find it hilarious that baseball appears to be ignoring the leaked testimony as if they've never read it before, then the guy makes a pretty generic reference to what everyone already knows, and MLB reacts like he's dropped a bomb. I realize they can't use the testimony to do something to him, but any investigation of him could - and should - have been precipitated by the testimony, not some generic mea culpa years later.

If this is the best George Mitchell can do, then it seems to be at cross-purposes with moving forward on this issue. People wanted McGwire to come clean - and I realize he's retired, so there's not much they can do - but if he were to admit having taken something other than andro during 1998, you have to wonder what action MLB would take. It seems baseball really is on a witch hunt, and that's all they care about. This isn't about getting to the truth of how this all happened, it's about finding as many cheaters as they can so they can appear to be the good guys in the public eye.

TroyF 05-21-2007 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ksyrup (Post 1468435)
I agree. Somehow, he got himself back in the good graces of Yankees fans and even most baseball fans long before this. This statement was unnecessary, but seemed to be a "too little, too late" comment that might get him in some trouble. I find it hilarious that baseball appears to be ignoring the leaked testimony as if they've never read it before, then the guy makes a pretty generic reference to what everyone already knows, and MLB reacts like he's dropped a bomb. I realize they can't use the testimony to do something to him, but any investigation of him could - and should - have been precipitated by the testimony, not some generic mea culpa years later.

If this is the best George Mitchell can do, then it seems to be at cross-purposes with moving forward on this issue. People wanted McGwire to come clean - and I realize he's retired, so there's not much they can do - but if he were to admit having taken something other than andro during 1998, you have to wonder what action MLB would take. It seems baseball really is on a witch hunt, and that's all they care about. This isn't about getting to the truth of how this all happened, it's about finding as many cheaters as they can so they can appear to be the good guys in the public eye.


Was there ever any doubt about this part? The MLB wants it both ways. They want to pretend that nobody knew anything about the performence enhancing drugs on one end and that they can be the heros in cleaning it up on the other.

All of that said, even the people who want someone to admit it and say they'll forgive the guys who do have to be disgusted by Giambi. The jack ass spends a couple of hours crying and apologizing for, oh, nothing a few years ago. Now he wants some kind of merit badge for it. He also wants to say that they really didn't help him.

Ummm. . . hey moron:

1) If you didn't think they helped and had no proof that they helped, why did you tae them? Why did you continue taking them?

2) You've NEVER apologized for taking them. Get that through your head now. If you want to do so, hold a press conference and say "I'm sorry for taking performence enhancing drugs." Then go out and speak to schools, american legion teams, minor leagues and be a part of the solution of removing them from the game. That's saying your sorry and backing it up by being a part of the long term solution to the problem.

3) Barring that, maybe you should just keep your mouth shut, especially when you are in a 1-24 slump, slugging at a .431 clip and not really helping a team that owes you a boatload of money the next few years.

This guy is beyond clueless. What a moron.

Ksyrup 05-21-2007 07:23 AM

Sadly, when placed next to the other "known" cheaters, the guy does come off like a saint.

The comment that they didn't help him hit the baseball is, of course, ridiculous. First, they have some effect on the ability to recuperate, no? And second, no one says he couldn't hit. But whether they helped him hit the ball further? I don't see him saying he'd have the same slugging percentage without the stuff. The "steroids can't help you hit the baseball" argument is such a cop out and purposely ignores the (supposed) effects of the stuff.

miami_fan 05-21-2007 09:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ksyrup (Post 1468438)
Sadly, when placed next to the other "known" cheaters, the guy does come off like a saint.



I really hope that is not the case.

Ksyrup 05-21-2007 09:42 AM

I don't know...put him next to Palmeiro, and what do you have? One guy offers vague "I'm sorry" comments, the other definitively says he didn't do it, then tested positive and says he has no idea how it happened and it must have been something a teammate, who he names, gave him. It's not difficult to look good next to most of these guys, even if his motive is shady.

Vince 05-22-2007 12:35 AM

Bengie Molina is freaking cool. I love this guy.

Chief Rum 05-22-2007 01:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vince (Post 1469137)
Bengie Molina is freaking cool. I love this guy.


Hands off! No matter uniform he wears, he will always be an Angel. :)

Ksyrup 05-22-2007 07:23 AM

If a record's broken and no one pays attention to it, does it still count? I remember how much play the Sandberg thing got at the time. The Twins people need to do a better job of promoting their players. Yeesh!


Castillo sets errorless streak at 2b

Last update: May 22, 2007 – 1:27 AM

Twins second baseman Luis Castillo set a major league record last week, and nobody knew it until Monday.

Castillo entered Monday riding a streak of 129 games without an error, the longest ever for a major league second baseman, according to the Elias Sports Bureau. The previous record was 123 games, by Hall of Famer Ryne Sandberg of the Cubs.

Twins media relations manager Dustin Morse checked with Elias about the record Monday and discovered Castillo already had set it.

Entering Monday, Castillo had gone 588 chances without an error, with 350 assists and 238 putouts, including 66 double plays.

Butter 05-22-2007 07:29 AM

The Sandberg record was a joke, as he would botch a number of plays during the season, but NEVER got charged for an error at Wrigley.

That makes me question any errorless streak, and whether or not the player who sets it got hometown scoring help or not.

Ksyrup 05-22-2007 07:37 AM

Well, unless the Twins' official scorer was keeping track, I doubt anyone noticed this streak.

Vince 05-22-2007 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chief Rum (Post 1469143)
Hands off! No matter uniform he wears, he will always be an Angel. :)


As much as that pains me...

...the guy is a great interview, he's totally team-centric, and doesn't like to take credit for anything he's done. He's practically automatic with 2-outs and men on base, and he calls a fantastic game behind the plate. Maybe I'm giving him too much credit, but I think he also has a lot to do with our pitching staff putting it all together this season. He really is one of the best acquisitions the Giants made in the offseason.

Ksyrup 05-22-2007 11:26 AM

Given how vocal ownership/management was about the Gary Matthews thing, I find this to be impossible to believe:


Angels interested in Giambi

Posted: Tuesday May 22, 2007 11:47AM ET

Major League Baseball isn't the only outfit interested in Jason Giambi. According to a person with knowledge of the Angels' thinking, the AL West leaders have an interest in acquiring the Yankees' DH to bolster a lineup that is last in the league in home runs.
New York Post

Ksyrup 05-22-2007 03:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ksyrup (Post 1446427)
I see him as an overwight pitcher who will break down once he gets into his late 20s, early 30s. He might win the Cy YOung one year, but then he'll go down like Colon the next. Not the guy I'd want to put a ton of money behind for 5-7 years.



Just following up on my comments about Zambrano from several weeks back, check out the discussion/video of Zambrano's arm slot. The speculation is that he may be hurting. Same with Papelbon, as well.

hxxp://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/carlos-zambranos-lower-arm-slot-cause-for-concern/

Logan 05-22-2007 03:47 PM

Just following up that I'm still desperately trying to trade off Zambrano before he's officially injured.

Atocep 05-22-2007 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ksyrup (Post 1469586)
Just following up on my comments about Zambrano from several weeks back, check out the discussion/video of Zambrano's arm slot. The speculation is that he may be hurting. Same with Papelbon, as well.

hxxp://www.hardballtimes.com/main/article/carlos-zambranos-lower-arm-slot-cause-for-concern/



Yep, a few pages back I said he looked like he was hurting. I've watched him pitch 3 or 4 times this year and his velocity isn't anywhere near what is used to be and he's wearing down at around the 90 pitch mark.

Probably the real reason the Cubs pulled their contract off the table. Though that is probably giving Hendry too much credit.

Ksyrup 05-22-2007 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atocep (Post 1469595)
Probably the real reason the Cubs pulled their contract off the table. Though that is probably giving Hendry too much credit.


:)

I think it is. All indications are that the deal is/was done, and the higher-ups have sat on it.

Chief Rum 05-22-2007 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vince (Post 1469355)
As much as that pains me...

...the guy is a great interview, he's totally team-centric, and doesn't like to take credit for anything he's done. He's practically automatic with 2-outs and men on base, and he calls a fantastic game behind the plate. Maybe I'm giving him too much credit, but I think he also has a lot to do with our pitching staff putting it all together this season. He really is one of the best acquisitions the Giants made in the offseason.


He's one of those tremendously underrated team players that can't be spoken of enough. And a good guy to boot. Of course, that was one of the reasons the Angels caught on so fast around here--guys like Molina, AK, Salmon, Erstad, Washburn, Eckstein and Speizio were here; all gamers, all 100% effort, all team. Strange fact--number of them still with team? Zero.

We have new gamers (philosophy is still the same), but those guys are gone.

Back to Molina, he is terrific calling a ballgame and handling a staff. Always has been. He has deserved more Gold Gloves than he has won (hard to win when Pudge is usually in the same league as you), had a very strong arm and was an underrated hitter. Piazza has spoiled baseball fans. A catcher who hit 10-15 HRs a year AND played great defense used to be a real gem. Now you're forgotten if you don't hit at least 20-25.

Molina has always had some clutchiness to his hitting, but it wasn't until recently (last few years with the Angels) that he really started doing well in pressure situations. I didn't think you could "learn" that.

Favorite play involving Bengie ever was one three years ago where there was a runner on third and K-Rod was on the mound. One of K-Rod's sliders completely got away with him and hit the dirt in front of the base. The ball squirted off to the right, about halfway to the on deck circle. The runner on third broke for home. Molina raced to the ball, and K-Rod ran to cover home. Without looking back, Molina grabbed the ball and backflipped it toward home. K-Rod caught the ball, sliding into home ahead of the runner to shield the plate, and tagged the guy out. Wow. We won that game (I think it was against the Indians) 2-1, and we barely won the division that year (it was the Guillen year where we won eight in a row to catch both the Rangers and A's).

That play was amazing and it didn't even make Baseball Tonight's Plays of the Year. Stupid ESPN.

Molina's great. Keep him as long as you can.

Chief Rum 05-22-2007 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ksyrup (Post 1469374)
Given how vocal ownership/management was about the Gary Matthews thing, I find this to be impossible to believe:


Angels interested in Giambi

Posted: Tuesday May 22, 2007 11:47AM ET

Major League Baseball isn't the only outfit interested in Jason Giambi. According to a person with knowledge of the Angels' thinking, the AL West leaders have an interest in acquiring the Yankees' DH to bolster a lineup that is last in the league in home runs.
New York Post


Yeah, I wasn't sure I bought that story when I heard it this morning either.

Crapshoot 05-22-2007 07:25 PM

Ugh. Bengie's been doing great, but he's a 33 year old C in offensive decline - I expect him to be back to .280/.310/.450 by year end (though I would love to be wrong). I hate the "Gamer" tag - it generally applies to players who aren't good but look like they're "hustling" - Erstad, Eckstein being the prime examples.

Atocep 05-22-2007 10:37 PM

I think Tim Wakefield had sex with Wallace Matthews' daughter or something. Thats about the only way I can explain the amount of hate he has for a guy that has been consistently above league average for what seems like forever.

hxxp://www.newsday.com/sports/baseball/yankees/ny-spwally225224683may22,0,7559777.column?coll=ny-yankees-print

Crapshoot 05-22-2007 11:24 PM

Tim Lincecum = awesome.

Chief Rum 05-22-2007 11:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crapshoot (Post 1469774)
Ugh. Bengie's been doing great, but he's a 33 year old C in offensive decline - I expect him to be back to .280/.310/.450 by year end (though I would love to be wrong). I hate the "Gamer" tag - it generally applies to players who aren't good but look like they're "hustling" - Erstad, Eckstein being the prime examples.


Yup, "gamers" are generally the antithesis of the field of sabermetrics. It must really bug ya when they actually are okay ballplayers, because you can't find a rational, mathematical explanation for it. ;)

Just goes to show numbers don't play the game.

Atocep 05-22-2007 11:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chief Rum (Post 1470031)
Yup, "gamers" are generally the antithesis of the field of sabermetrics. It must really bug ya when they actually are okay ballplayers, because you can't find a rational, mathematical explanation for it. ;)

Just goes to show numbers don't play the game.


"Gamer" is a term used for guys that are generally liked in the clubhouse, but are league-average players, at best. Its also usually attached to the "scrappy" and "hustle" attributes.

Erstad - one of the worst players in baseball since '01
Eckstein - the very definition of league average
Molina - pretty solid the past 2 years. Sucked before that.

Numbers don't play the game, but they are much better measure of a player's perfmance than token titles handed out to "good clubhouse guys".

Chief Rum 05-22-2007 11:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atocep (Post 1470035)
"Gamer" is a term used for guys that are generally liked in the clubhouse, but are league-average players, at best. Its also usually attached to the "scrappy" and "hustle" attributes.

Erstad - one of the worst players in baseball since '01
Eckstein - the very definition of league average
Molina - pretty solid the past 2 years. Sucked before that.

Numbers don't play the game, but they are much better measure of a player's perfmance than token titles handed out to "good clubhouse guys".


I don't deny those guys aren't the best players in baseball. I am just pointing out that stat-centric baseball fans tend to miss that there's more to the game than the numbers.

Atocep 05-22-2007 11:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chief Rum (Post 1470042)
I don't deny those guys aren't the best players in baseball. I am just pointing out that stat-centric baseball fans tend to miss that there's more to the game than the numbers.


There's two extremes and my, admittedly biased view, favors the stats side of the game. As a fan of baseball, however, there are guys that aren't the best sabermetric players that I like. Endy Chavez is a good example. He's a weak centerfield bat playing a corner outfield spot for the Mets, yet he's one of my favorite Mets because he's fun to watch play.

My personal issue with the "gamer" tag is when people try to lead us to believe that guys such as Erstad are good players because they do things the average person just can't understand or when people try to say the Eckstein is a "winner".

I can appreciate players that are fun to watch or others think are fun to watch. But sometimes people need to cut the BS and admit that a player can be a good guy, a fun player to watch, and still suck at baseball.

Chief Rum 05-23-2007 12:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atocep (Post 1470046)
There's two extremes and my, admittedly biased view, favors the stats side of the game. As a fan of baseball, however, there are guys that aren't the best sabermetric players that I like. Endy Chavez is a good example. He's a weak centerfield bat playing a corner outfield spot for the Mets, yet he's one of my favorite Mets because he's fun to watch play.

My personal issue with the "gamer" tag is when people try to lead us to believe that guys such as Erstad are good players because they do things the average person just can't understand or when people try to say the Eckstein is a "winner".

I can appreciate players that are fun to watch or others think are fun to watch. But sometimes people need to cut the BS and admit that a player can be a good guy, a fun player to watch, and still suck at baseball.


I can definitely agree with that. I actually follow and generally agree with the logic in the numbers as well. I just try to meld it into a view that takes into account that numbers are just numbers, but no actual human being can be so quantified. Not saying you do that, but I have seen some who do, and go way too far with it.

I don't consider gamers to be "winners". I consider gamers to be smart, tough players who play the game the right way and are never a problem in the clubhouse. You don't see guys like that quail under the pressure of the postseason, which is the only way I would equate them with "winners". In and of itself, being a "winner" means nothing in baseball. Being able to raise the level of your game when it matters, though, is a tangible quality that certainly has an effect.

And, yes, gamers are usually more fun to watch, too, and that only adds to it. Eckstein may have little to no actual quality skills (other than good hands and some speed and baserunning instincts), but it's damn fun watching a little guy who obviously plays as hard as he does be a catalyst on two World Series champs.

BTW, for all the gamers the Angels had in 2002, we couldn't have won without K-Rod's wicked stuff, the power of Glaus and GA (and Salmon, who had skills on top of being a gamer), and a steady pitching staff. Those aren't gamer qualities, but actual talent. I find you don't usually get by in baseball without a decent helping of both talent and "gamer" mentality.

Crapshoot 05-23-2007 12:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chief Rum (Post 1470031)
Yup, "gamers" are generally the antithesis of the field of sabermetrics. It must really bug ya when they actually are okay ballplayers, because you can't find a rational, mathematical explanation for it. ;)

Just goes to show numbers don't play the game.


Oh god - want to throw in a "baseball's played on the field, not on the computer NERDZ" line while you're at it? People who run away from sabremetrics are the same people who look at data and reject it, because it doesn't fit their preconcieved notions - being educated about a subject apparently doesn't fit into the worldview :rolleyes:

Darrin Erstad is a bad player. He's been an bad player ever year since 2000 - which is the last year he had an OPS+ over 100 - 1b who are below league average offensively are not assets, no matter how much "hustle" and "grit" (and other cliches) you throw out there. He did have some value because he was a great CF, but even that isn't true anymore.

Crapshoot 05-23-2007 12:31 AM

Dola,
that's meaner than I intended to CR (who's a decent guy), but I really hate the fact the fact that people ignore the data because it doesn't match their perceptions.

Chief Rum 05-23-2007 12:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crapshoot (Post 1470079)
Dola,
that's meaner than I intended to CR (who's a decent guy), but I really hate the fact the fact that people ignore the data because it doesn't match their perceptions.


I had a much meaner response in place until I saw this. I deleted it.

I think if I had your devotion to these numbers, it would frustrate me, too, that others don't accept it as an end-all as you may. I know it frustrates me when I see people who appear to be blind to the beauty of the game and all the unquantifiable elements that are a part of it, simply because they can't put a number to it.

I never said Erstad was a great player. He wasn't even an average player after 2000. It killed me that we were paying him so much for so long. But that doesn't mean I can't love having him on the team for all he meant to the guys in that clubhouse and to the fans, and even to the game of baseball.

I don't dismiss sabermetrics. It just appears that way because A) strong proponents of sabermetrics on this board (in particular) are so married to their precious formulae that they automatically reject anyone who doesn't accept it as a worldview hook, line and sinker, and B) my favorite team, of which I am a well known and impassioned advocate, runs quite contrary to sabermetric theorems and succeeds in spite of them, often putting me at odds with sabermetricians because they don't "like" my players or my team.

I actually enjoy the theories of sabermetrics and the math behind them. This sorta thing interests me a lot. I just believe there is much more to the game than numbers, and I believe I see the evidence every day I watch a baseball game.

Vince 05-23-2007 01:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crapshoot (Post 1470027)
Tim Lincecum = awesome.


Yes.

kingfc22 05-23-2007 01:59 AM

Seeing Lincecum in person and standing about 15 feet away from him warming up in the pen prior to the game was awesome. He has incredible pop on his fastball for such a slender guy. Almost felt bad for Molina having to catch all those throws.

Bad-example 05-23-2007 02:25 AM

Cain
Zito
Lowry
Morris
Lincecum

That is a pretty nice rotation there, with Morris the only one over 30.

Fouts 05-23-2007 03:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chief Rum (Post 1470042)
I don't deny those guys aren't the best players in baseball. I am just pointing out that stat-centric baseball fans tend to miss that there's more to the game than the numbers.


Wasting your time Chief. Can you imagine trying to watch a game with one of these sabr guys?

I like Erstad and don't consider him a bad player. Can you imagine a manager who won a world series actually having a bad player leadoff day after day? What a dumbass! Doesn't he know what sabr says about Erstad? :rolleyes:

Ksyrup 05-23-2007 07:05 AM

Erstad, hitting like he did for the past few years, at his salary and playing first base, was pretty much useless. Good teams can win with useless players in the lineup. They just can't have a team full of them. So that really doesn't say much about Erstad as it does about the strength of the team. That's not to say he wasn't a plus in the clubhouse or with fans, which I don't discount like some do, but purely for what he gave on the field, he was a waste.

dawgfan 05-23-2007 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fouts (Post 1470110)
Wasting your time Chief. Can you imagine trying to watch a game with one of these sabr guys?

I know! It would probably involve learning things you never knew before, and that would be horrible!

Atocep 05-23-2007 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fouts (Post 1470110)
Wasting your time Chief. Can you imagine trying to watch a game with one of these sabr guys?

I like Erstad and don't consider him a bad player. Can you imagine a manager who won a world series actually having a bad player leadoff day after day? What a dumbass! Doesn't he know what sabr says about Erstad? :rolleyes:


Can you imagine a manager that took his team to the world series using Neifi Perez in the leadoff spot during a time that coincided with the team's near historic collapse!?! Oh wait, that did happen.

A manager's job is to not screw things up. They don't win games so pointing out managers that have won a world series is rather pointless.

As for Erstad, you don't even have to use those uber geek Sabr stats to see he's one of the worst everyday players in baseball. His traditional stats are horrible, its actually been a Saber stat (OMG!) thats showed he has some value. His fielding runs above average have been among the best in baseball going all the way back to '99.

Here's his BA/OBP/SLG/OPS the past 7 years. Traditional stats. No funny Saber voodoo here.

.258 .331 .360 .691
.283 .313 .389 .702
.252 .309 .333 .642
.295 .346 .400 .746
.273 .325 .371 .696
.221 .279 .326 .605 - just 95 ABs
.270 .320 .352 .672

I challenge anyone to find a player that has been this consistently bad over the past 7 years and still managed to get over 500 plate appearances 4 times. To top it off this guy was playing a premium offensive position after being moved out of center. I know, he played football at Nebraska so its difficult to imagine him being a bad baseball player, but I'm asking everyone to try really hard and at least consider the posibililty.

It must also kill you to see that Sabermetrics have had an impact on just about every team in baseball and even people that don't agree with the ideas presented in Moneyball are adapting them. The price for players with high OBP continues to go up, there's been less high school hitters and pitchers drafted the past several years, and stolen bases continue to decline. Sabermetrics are changing the way the game is played and the way front offices are run. One day you might stop and think that all of these sabr dorks with their pocket protectors, protractors, and notebooks might just be onto something.

I know its completely irresponsible to use facts and statistical analysis to base your arguements on rather than blindly making claims that are impossible to back up. My apologies for using facts in a discussion about a sport that is based on stats.

Fouts 05-23-2007 06:08 PM

LOL.

Fouts 05-24-2007 07:43 AM

Hate to change the subject (lol), but I just saw Todd Linden hitting for the Marlins. Kind of bummed he didn't make it in SF as I thought he could break out with enough time.

Nice game last night for Benji to cap a sweep of the Astros.

ISiddiqui 05-24-2007 08:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atocep
It must also kill you to see that Sabermetrics have had an impact on just about every team in baseball and even people that don't agree with the ideas presented in Moneyball are adapting them. The price for players with high OBP continues to go up, there's been less high school hitters and pitchers drafted the past several years, and stolen bases continue to decline. Sabermetrics are changing the way the game is played and the way front offices are run. One day you might stop and think that all of these sabr dorks with their pocket protectors, protractors, and notebooks might just be onto something.

I know its completely irresponsible to use facts and statistical analysis to base your arguements on rather than blindly making claims that are impossible to back up. My apologies for using facts in a discussion about a sport that is based on stats.


Gold :). Preach on, brother Atocep!

Ksyrup 05-24-2007 08:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atocep (Post 1470617)
A manager's job is to not screw things up. They don't win games so pointing out managers that have won a world series is rather pointless.


Exactly. The D-Backs won a WS with Tony Womack leading off, but the point isn't so much that they won because of him, but despite him. That doesn't make Tony Womack a good lead off hitter, nor does it make Brenly right for using him in that way.

Calis 05-24-2007 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sterlingice (Post 1467550)
Woo! Royals have won 4 of 5.

SI


8 out of 10 now!

Ahh, we have to enjoy these runs while they last. They are few and far between.

Looking good though, the bullpen finally shaping up a bit with Greinke and Perez moved back there.

I still think I'd stick with Soria over Dotel for closer for a while, I just don't trust Dotel but I guess that's where the money went. Rather see them build someone up who's going to be around for a few years.

Mizzou B-ball fan 05-24-2007 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calis (Post 1470967)
8 out of 10 now!


Yep, actually the hottest team in baseball now. The indicators have been there that they could play well. I can't believe how improved our pitching is this year. We've dropped our team ERA by over a run when compared to last year's team ERA. We finished last in the league a year ago and are right in the middle of the pack this year. Amazing improvement for just one off-season.

Bats are finally waking up as well. Even Alex Gordon has come alive. They're going to have some monster crowds out at Kauffman Stadium this weekend. Friday night will likely be sold out and the weekend games and fireworks should draw well too. Hopefully the rain doesn't stop our run tonight.

DeToxRox 05-24-2007 01:25 PM

Magglio Ordonez is 3-3 vs Anaheim today with 4 RBI, now putting him at 46 RBI, and the new leader in AL. He is hitting over .340 with 12 HR too boot. Definetly should be in the early season MVP talks.

Ksyrup 05-24-2007 01:41 PM

Ervin Santana's inability to pitch well on the road is bordering on comical. He's Johan Santana at home, and Julio Santana on the road.

DeToxRox 05-24-2007 01:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ksyrup (Post 1471114)
Ervin Santana's inability to pitch well on the road is bordering on comical. He's Johan Santana at home, and Julio Santana on the road.


It's like Bondermans ability to pitch first innings.

Ksyrup 05-24-2007 01:54 PM

He did OK today!

DeToxRox 05-24-2007 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ksyrup (Post 1471126)
He did OK today!


Hey, zero runs, I'll take it.

Thanks Garry Matthews Jr!

DeToxRox 05-24-2007 02:01 PM

As I posted in a thread earlier, Ernie Harwell is doing the TV broadcast today for the Tigers and it's just such an awesome stroll down memory lane. Even at 89 years old, Ernie is light years ahead of anyone else calling a game.

Schmidty 05-24-2007 02:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeToxRox (Post 1471107)
Magglio Ordonez is 3-3 vs Anaheim today with 4 RBI, now putting him at 46 RBI, and the new leader in AL. He is hitting over .340 with 12 HR too boot. Definetly should be in the early season MVP talks.


Actually, according to ESPN (up-to-date), he's hitting .361 with 12 HR and 45 RBI.

DeToxRox 05-24-2007 02:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schmidty (Post 1471161)
Actually, according to ESPN (up-to-date), he's hitting .361 with 12 HR and 45 RBI.


Wow. Magz is on a tear. Hope he continues it this weeked with the big Indians series looming tomorrow.

Ksyrup 05-24-2007 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DeToxRox (Post 1471133)
Hey, zero runs, I'll take it.

Thanks Garry Matthews Jr!


I see what you're talking about. He did struggle, but escaped, then was lights out after that.

Logan 05-24-2007 07:28 PM

For anyone watching the Mets - Braves right now, that was the worst check-swing/called 3rd strike call I've ever seen.

Wright just got punched out with the bases loaded when his bat didn't even go more than 45 degrees across the plate.

Chief Rum 05-24-2007 08:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ksyrup (Post 1471114)
Ervin Santana's inability to pitch well on the road is bordering on comical. He's Johan Santana at home, and Julio Santana on the road.


As an Angels fan, personally it's killing me what this guy does on the road. I am sick of waiting for him to figure out how to pitch on the road. I want the first ever home-road platoon rotation spot. It's not like we don't have the starting pitching depth. Mosely and Saunders would be starting for most teams, and Carrasco and Bootcheck could start, too.

It's not like Stoneman's going to trade any of them away for a hitter anyway.

Atocep 05-24-2007 08:40 PM

If the Mets lose this game 2-0 my remote may end up going through my TV.

Chief Rum 05-24-2007 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atocep (Post 1471333)
If the Mets lose this game 2-0 my remote may end up going through my TV.


So you can put an object about the weight of a baseball through a two-foot by two-foot square from some 15 feet away? I'm sold--wanna start on the road for Santana?

Logan 05-24-2007 09:10 PM

Julio Franco has a striking resemblance to Pedro Cerrano while swinging at breaking balls.

miami_fan 05-25-2007 08:15 AM

So what options will Bud Selig be considering in the Giambi case? I don't see where the Commissioner can do anything of substance.

Ksyrup 05-25-2007 08:25 AM

Selig is pretty much in the same position Goodell is right now. Based on their actions, they're setting the stage for boxing themselves in on future issues of this nature. If he does nothing, then can anyone expect any action based on the Mitchell Report (which may name names, but I seriously doubt it will have anything more than "he said" proof)? And if he acts, then he's basically got to act on everything Mitchell reports.

He's screwed. I would not want to be in his shoes. I'd be hella pissed with Giambi right now for forcing this issue so soon.

Ksyrup 05-25-2007 12:12 PM

Interesting follow-up on the Radomski thing. This could be a huge story over the summer. Certainly will be huge whenever information starts getting out.

hxxp://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/writers/jon_heyman/05/23/kirk.radomski/index.html

miami_fan 05-25-2007 06:23 PM

A couple of injury issues in the NL east.

Quote:

Mike Gonzalz will require Tommy John surgery on his elbow and miss the rest of the season.

This doesn't come as any big surprise. Gonzalez's elbow has been a problem on and off for years, and his inconsistent velocity from the start of the spring suggested there was some significant damage involved. Fortunately, the Braves have Rafael Soriano to keep working the eighth inning in front of Bob Wickman. Now they need Macay McBride to step up and take over as the No. 1 lefty in the pen. May. 25 - 5:04 pm et


Quote:

Phillies placed RHP Brett Myers on the 15-day disabled list, retroactive to May 24, with a right shoulder strain.

Ryan Howard replaces him on the active roster. Myers never required a DL stint as a major leaguer until the Phillies opted to have him change roles during the season and then use him 18 times in 36 days. The club will go to a closer-by-committee until either Myers or Tom Gordon returns. Antonio Alfonseca might be the favorite for save chances, though that doesn't mean he'll convert any. Ryan Madson and Geoff Geary are better pitchers. May. 25 - 4:53 pm

Atocep 05-25-2007 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by HiFiRevival (Post 1471977)
WTF? This is idiotic. Managers don't win games? Sure. They definitely don't handle the lineup day in and day out. The most certainly don't know their own personnel well enough to find as many favorable lineups and pitching situations to give greater probability for success. They never make in game adjustments dependent upon how things are going that day. They're absolutely incapable of making decisions with the bigger picture in mind that may seem shortsighted at the time they are made. Well, at least the good ones who win the World Series don't.

I guess I could be a MLB manager, as long as I make sure to not screw things up.

And, yes, I am a sabr guy mostly myself, but this kind of blind devotion that divorces the numbers from reality is just pathetic.


A manager has 3 main jobs. Make sure players have a clearly defined role, manage the bullpen, fill out a lineup card.

The last one is such a joke that it shouldn't even be included, but there's quite a few managers out there that still screw it up. Good players win games, managers don't. I don't know how you could possibly argue otherwise. If you want to, I'm all for listening.

It has nothing to do with divorcing numbers from reality, it is reality. A manager's job is to simply not screw things up. Your post was nothing more than "I don't agree, your statement was idiotic". I'd like to hear some examples of managers winning games.

Chief Rum 05-25-2007 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Atocep (Post 1471981)
A manager has 3 main jobs. Make sure players have a clearly defined role, manage the bullpen, fill out a lineup card.

The last one is such a joke that it shouldn't even be included, but there's quite a few managers out there that still screw it up. Good players win games, managers don't. I don't know how you could possibly argue otherwise. If you want to, I'm all for listening.

It has nothing to do with divorcing numbers from reality, it is reality. A manager's job is to simply not screw things up. Your post was nothing more than "I don't agree, your statement was idiotic". I'd like to hear some examples of managers winning games.


Actually, I haven't seen either of you put up evidence to back your suppositions.

Atocep 05-25-2007 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chief Rum (Post 1471996)
Actually, I haven't seen either of you put up evidence to back your suppositions.


I don't think anyone can argue the 3 roles for managers I mentioned above. You may want to add some things, but I'd be willing to bet just about anything mentioned really falls in one of the three categories (one that could be added is handling starters, but you really could just expand bullpen to pitching staff). In-game strategy in today's world isn't something terribly difficult to do. Its just a question as to whether or not a manager uses the data available and if he do

I think its pretty clear when you look at the managerial careers of Dusty Baker (thought to be a genius until his 2nd year with the Cubs) and Lou Pinella (though to be a genius until he went to Tampa Bay and fared just as well as everyone else had) that a manager's impact is rather minimal.

Here's a fantastic article on managers, which is made even better when you look at the manager featured:

http://www.baseballprospectus.com/ar...?articleid=166

MrBug708 05-26-2007 04:15 AM

Goooooooooooooooooooooo

Go Dodgers!


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