I find it amusing that you didn't complain about the debt aspect of this proposal before attacking the one team you really dislike. Your attempt at neutrality and displaying ideological purity is not very convincing.

I said it sounded good for me personally, somebody pointed out the dependent thing and I changed my mind. I had heard prior it was only for really rich people.

As far as disliking one party more than the other... I don't find many politicians I like in either party. Ron/Rand Paul in the GOP and maybe Dennis Kucinich when he was in Congress. This board is just very left leaning so the debates tend to seem more against them. What's to defend with Trump? He's a worthless president of whom my only hope is that he keeps us out of a war. Laughing at and criticizing Democrats doesn't need to equate to supporting Republicans. What's good about any of them?

27 years ago.

If Obama had made a comment on Twitter using a racist term against white people while how many minutes would it have taken for someone from the GOP to ask for his impeachment.

Trump does it and it's just another Friday.

As for fiscal responsibility, it comes down to how much additional depth helps the people of this country. In order to pay for the massive cuts to taxes for businesses they're going to end up cutting social programs. The Trump administration has already shown they have no problem targeting programs that help the poor and middle class.

This is the same bullshit economics Republicans sell to the public and its never worked. Kansas thought they could lower taxes on businesses and the economic growth would cover the lost tax income. It destroyed their economy. Trickle down is a republican scam that they continue to sell to uneducated voters.

Benjamin Wittes on DJT and the rule of law:

“The Saddest Thing�: President Trump Acknowledges Constraint - Lawfare

tldr:

Almost as cringeworthy as "LOLDems", which you so thoroughly articulated.

Louisiana as well.

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2

3

4

5

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That's what happens when you make the same fucking post over and over again.

U.S. Army's Bergdahl spared prison for deserting in Afghanistan

Trump thinks he should have been executed.

And yes Donald, climate change is a hoax:

Trump administration releases report finding 'no convincing alternative explanation' for climate change

Did a pretty good job under Clinton. Obama cut the deficit by almost two-thirds. When you look at what Reagan, the Bushes, and now what Trump wants to do, I'd argue that the Democrats have been the fiscally conservative party.

If you add new programs, you need to also find the revenue to pay for it. If you want to cut revenue, you need to cut the spending somewhere. Democrats at least have abided by the first one, Republicans don't abide by the second.

One of the things that bugs me about the selling of the tax proposal is the supposed "simplifying" of it. You can fill it out on one small card!

That'd be a nice feature 30 years ago when we'd sit around doing this shit by hand. But just about everyone just plugs their info into a computer program and it spits out what you need. It's honestly not that confusing to file your own taxes these days.

I'd also add that while I benefit from the mortgage interest deduction, it is kind of a bullshit deduction pushed by the real estate industry. I'm fine with eliminating it if the revenue wasn't just going toward the cutting of rich people taxes.

Kind of ironic considering the report that came out today.

Republican tax plan kills electric vehicle credit | Ars Technica

I heard a bit of an interview on CNN the day this came out, and the subject came off as if taxes were a challenging thing for him. Spoke in real simple terms (and ignored or intentionally misunderstood most of what was being asked of him for pre-packaged soundbytes).

Of course I think it was the Ways and Means chairman...

So Donna Brazile was full of it...

https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/ele...c-deal-n817411

Turns out the memo Donna spoke about applied only to the general election. If so then this memo is standard operating procedure for 15 years https://t.co/fsU1kMZoSp

— Howard Dean (@GovHowardDean) November 3, 2017

I'll grow old and die before this primary is over.

Nah. See, what happens is, when they want to cut taxes, they also bleat about how the social safety net is destroying America and that we need to dismantle it so that people can bootstrap themselves into untold millions. They're perfectly fine cutting spending when it comes to cutting revenue, as long as that spending is intended to help the poors not be poor.

Cutting spending has never been the problem. The problem is that there's a push-and-pull effect for conservatives when it comes to government spending. The impulse to tax cuts is probably equal with the impulse to SPEND MOAR on the military; as you whack a few tens of billions from the social safety net to "pay for" tax cuts, there's always someone who'll go "the military needs another $50 billion this year you don't hate America surely."

It isn't that Republicans don't abide by logical necessities so much as that they have diametrically opposed Pavlovian reactions where spending is concerned. They can't help themselves. Their view of "the greatest country in the world" is "fuck you, got mine" with a healthy dash of "we need to have the firepower of the next ten militaries combined because we secretly don't think our military's training and professionalism could take any of those countries in a straight up fight."

We were joking yesterday that our CEO would, under this proposal, have a significantly lower tax rate than a good portion of our employees despite making significantly more money.

They also know that they can't seriously cut Medicare or Social Security without destroying their base. Given that military, SS, and healthcare are the big parts of the budget, they can't cut anywhere near enough to cover their tax cuts.

This article pretty much sums up my feelings on DFA's moronic statement on the VA governor's race. Every day, I grow to hate the left wing of the party more and more.

The Most Self-Righteous Political Act of 2017 Just Took Place in the VA Governor’s Race

Not everyone is going to be happy; some will benefit and others will not; some will benefit more than others.

The important thing to me is will this tax plan grow the "economy" significantly and will it help sustain the stock market?

Regardless of what I think about Trump, I believe it will and that's a good thing.

Is the deficit a consideration? Sure but I think we've seen both parties lie about it when its their time in/out of power. All things held equal, if the deficit grows regardless of party in/out of power, then I certainly want more robust economic growth and stock market gains.

Does Trump get all the props for both, no because Obama certainly laid the foundation to stabilize things after the Great Recession. Trump hasn't screwed things up (so far) on the economy and stock market so he does get credit here.

What examples do we have of a tax plan like this growing the economy? We have multiple showing it can actually slow economic growth.

I think the bottom line angst to many people is -

If the rich and corporations are paying less taxes, where will current social/entitlement/defense programs be funded from?

Unless the economy grows larger/faster where tax collections exceeds the cuts, that probably means the social/entitlement/defense programs will have to be reduced.

And that's where the rubber hits the road ...

You don't believe corporate tax cuts will increase economic growth?

Cutting corporate taxes will not boost American wages | Economic Policy Institute

https://www.usnews.com/news/economy/...conomic-growth

For a recent example check out the cooperate tax cuts Kansas tried and the impact it had on their economy.

On your first link, I'm actually not associating corporate tax cuts with wage growth.

On your second link, looks like a toss up to me.

So I'm all for Trump allowing the release of info relevant on the JFK assassination but am troubled by the additional MLK stuff, not sure why they released the MLK notes. I don't think its a Trump thing/ploy to stir things up ...

The MLK files are pretty critical of him and there are probably some truth but its not as if JFK (or other powerful men) haven't had their indiscretions.

JFK Files: New documents allege Martin Luther King Jr. had secret affairs, orgies | The Sacramento Bee

Ryan is touting an analysis that says the tax bill will create one million jobs.

5 trillion/1 million = 5 million dollars per job created

I hope somebody is clever enough to point this out.

It didn't in 2004 when they allowed companies to repatriate money at a 5% rate. In fact, a few years later we saw one of the biggest recessions in our nation's history. It'll make some major shareholders happy as dividends could go up. I'm sure bonuses will be bigger for top execs. But how exactly does it help everyone else?

Here's the huge flaw in their thinking. Companies already do everything in their power to maximize profits. If $1 of R&D equals $2 in profit, they'll spend as much as they possibly can in R&D until that profit is no longer attainable. A company will hire the least amount of labor to reach the maximum amount of profit. Giving Pepsi an extra billion in cash doesn't mean they run out and hire people. If they felt it was a good decision to hire more people, they would do it without this tax cut.

Every single time they do a repatriation, the benefits that these politicians claim will come from it never do. It's just a cash grab for giant companies who don't want to pay taxes to a country they benefit a great deal from.

Hence my general (key word) support of the cuts, 2 of those 3 should be nowhere near the size they are now.

This a 1,000 times over.

I'm not sure I follow the logic on your first paragraph to second. I'm not talking about repatriating overseas $. Its the corporate tax rate from 35% to 20% that I am referring to.

On your second paragraph, I agree that its not just about hiring more people, those days are long gone. Give Pepsi and extra billion in cash they they likely will invest some in hiring, also in technology e.g. robotics, also in additional R&D, and yes, also paying out dividends. Don't think that's a bad thing.

I have seen studies that say reducing personal income tax rates do not necessarily impact the economy. I haven't seen much on corporate tax rates.

It's the same concept as the repatriating. They were allowed to bring in money from overseas at a much lower rate. That lower rate and extra money didn't go toward the middle or lower class. So why would this tax cut go toward the middle class?


If Pepsi felt more employees or more R&D led to higher profits, why wouldn't they just do it now?

It's a supply side solution for what certainly looks like a demand side problem. Instead of spending five trillion and hoping that that equals a million jobs, how about spend one trillion on infrastructure and put a shit ton of people to work.

There are an enormous amount of things that need doing that will put people to work, but we can't do any of it because socialism. But I guess if they were to give me five million dollars I'd hire one guy to do my lawn or clean my house or something.

Get another guy and they'll give you $300 million to power an island.

I don't think its the same thing. Only some companies have the offshore assets to repatriate whereas the 35% to 20% is wholesale. The scale is significantly different.


Per my earlier post, its not just hiring people and its not just R&D. There are various reasons -- cash flow, they don't want to take the risk, payback period may be too long (e.g. 5 years), they want to spend money on hiring or building plants overseas, political uncertainty, they want to pay dividends etc.

I don't get your logic (over and over). If Pepsi could make more money by any of those things (R&D, robotics, etc), they would already be doing it. Pepsi is not waiting for a big tax break to make more money. What always happens is that the money goes to the executives as bonuses and big time shareholders.

This idea that businesses and rich people are just waiting for a tax cut to make more money is absurd.

I'm not saying businesses and rich people are waiting for a tax cut to make more money. I'm not sure where you got that from my posts?

What I am saying is if a company can plan for an extra $1B in 2018 to free up due to reduced corp taxes, they will use it -- it won't just be only on employees or wages (nor should it be).

On your question on why Pepsi/company is not already doing R&D, robotics etc. if they can make money? Possible answers are (1) they are already doing it but an additional $1B sure would help to extend/expand what they are doing or (2) they don't have available cash flow to pursue because their budget is allocated to other things.

According to some quick research Pepsi has 10 billion in cash or cash equivalents. Why would an additional billion make any difference to their plans?

I wasn't really thinking about Pepsi specifically since I don't think anyone here knows their cash situation or strategic priorities. It was just a company name to use. If the $1B example isn't appropriate, scale it up to where it is significant for a Pepsi.

According to public filings, Pepsi has 10 billion in cash or cash equivalents, so what would Pepsi do with 11 or 15 or 20 billion that they don't have enough cash to do today?

Beats me what their strategic imperatives are but some ideas ...

Maybe they want to make sure they have enough of a rainy day fund to continue being a Dividend Aristocrat? Maybe they need to keep that reserve/cushion amount because that's what stockholders expect (e.g. if they have $0, stockholders would worry)? Maybe something hasn't come up that gives them the ROI/payback period they want? Maybe they want to save up the money to possibly buy Coca-Cola? Maybe they are investing the money and getting 18% YTD return and they figure this is better than anything else they can spend the money on?

Alot of maybes and there's probably 10 more. What is your theory?

Mueller Has Enough Evidence to Bring Charges in Flynn Investigation - NBC News

LOCK HIM UP!

The point isn't that they should or shouldn't be doing X with their cash, it's that having more cash, through a corporate rate cut, won't cause them to do anything productive for the economy. They have the money currently to hire 10,000 more employees, but they don't, so it is very unlikely having more cash will lead to more jobs.

Paul Ryan brags that his plan will mean 5 million in lost revenue for each job created. That sounds terrible to me.

I don't think a net increase in employees/jobs is necessarily the goal as we already have pretty low employment rate.

How about small businesses who don't have this cash hoard, would they spend the savings on themselves personally or plough some of it into the business? or possibly new small business that are created because of the business friendly environment?

I'm sure it will make the wealthy more wealthy.

I doubt it will do much of anything else. Our problems are wages, inequality and labor force participation. I don't see how this tax bill does anything to help in those areas.

No doubt those are pretty significant issues. I'm happy with strong economic and stock market growth to start of with.

Let's revisit this thread topic after 2-3 years after passage and see where we are on economic growth and the stock market.

It seems if the decrease in tax revenue does not cause cuts in government spending AND the ensuing deficit increase doesn’t bother/effect people- then, sure, good idea.

Small businesses are using tax structures like LLC where profits are passed through to the owners. This doesn't benefit them at all.

As for the cash flow of big businesses, banks are healthy and profitable companies should have no problem borrowing or luring investors.

Paradise Papers coming up with some fascinating stuff. Maybe their love of Russia is because they want America to be setup like a kleptocracy too.

Trump commerce secretary's business links with Putin family laid out in leaked files | News | The Guardian

The wealthy men in Trump's inner circle with links to tax havens | News | The Guardian

Stock market I'll give you economic growth isn't truly stronger than under Obama - its just better marketed by Trump.

First off he originally claimed he'd get 5% growth not the 3% he's now touting as 'great' ... secondly 3% growth in a quarter isn't unusual, Obama did that regularly and even several a 4% and 5% growth in fairly recent quarters (2012, 13 & 14) ... he just didn't tweet about them ;)

You can expect the next quarter growth to be lower as traditionally the winter and spring quarters have lower growth - so overall GDP under Trump is fairly normal tbh, which you'd expect as nothing has changed from Obama yet.

• Real GDP growth in the United States, by quarter 2011-2017 | Statistic

The fact that Rand Paul's assailant was a neighbor and that nothing is coming out as to motive is very strange.

Yup. My guess is it went beyond political views.

Article said it was "fourth degree assault." What'd he do, throw an egg at him?

hey, Rand Paul requires that you address him as Dr. Rand Paul. Get it right.

Agree on the stock market. On economic growth, also agree on his bluster.

But wasn't thinking about now on economic growth. What I was proposing revisiting in 2-3 years is -- after the tax plan is passed with significant corp tax reduction from 35% to 20%, that economic growth (assume GDP/GNP) will increase.

Also, as RM pointed out, small businesses will also be impacted by the reduction/simplification of personal tax rates (vs corporate tax rate reduction) and other various proposals in the tax plan.

Not sure how to "measure" this but think there'll be plenty of articles for us to digest and comment on.

Supposedly, he has 5 broken ribs.

There were some fractured ribs. Pretty serious I think.

Rand Paul recovering from 5 broken ribs - Chicago Tribune

That only makes a misdemeanor assault and no motive even more strange.

Well you have to figure that the initial assault didn't break any of the ribs. Rather, Rand broke those ribs himself because as a libertarian he doesn't feel it necessary to rely on society to do anything for him.

@sethhanlon has an excellent thread about how the tax bill looks like it was written by Trump's accountant.

Seth Hanlon on Twitter: "The Republican tax bill looks like it was written by Donald Trump’s accountants and tax lawyers, and I’m not even joking. 1/"

I could've sworn I read that the guy tackled him from behind while Paul was cutting his grass and that there was a history of disagreement between the two of them about grass-cutting. I assumed Paul was either cutting his grass too early in the morning (WHICH IS NOT POSSIBLE) for some lazy neighbor, or perhaps there was a disagreement about cutting near the property line, and the dude snapped and tackled.

If you're mowing your lawn before 8a on Saturday morning, then fuck you.

Lazybones. :p

I know this is just point-and-laugh stuff at this point (that our POTUS is, ahem, "enthusiastically ignorant" is already well understood) but... oh wow...

Mark Knoller on Twitter: "Pres Trump asks Japanese auto makers if they could build their cars in the US and not just ship them over."

(Knoller is no agenda buy, either, he seems to be the straightest shooter of the pool reporters, as nearly as I can tell)




later edit, with more detail out: see my follow-up apology here: https://forums.operationsports.com/f...postcount=7278

This is basically like Palin in Game Change, except much, much worse.

“The reason our stock market is so successful is because of me. I’ve always been great with money”-@realDonaldTrump on AF1 en route to Tokyo pic.twitter.com/ygtZu25cgZ

— Jonathan Karl (@jonkarl) November 5, 2017

He's going to have to explain why the stock market climbed from 8,000 to 19,000 under Obama then https://t.co/xpUeirOKUq

— Ben Shapiro (@benshapiro) November 5, 2017

DOLA

Trump says Texas church shooting “isn’t a guns situation” but instead “a mental health problem at the highest level” https://t.co/Wpl4uiufGg pic.twitter.com/qAtt8ullGB

— TODAY (@TODAYshow) November 6, 2017

Blames mental illness, but signed a bill allowing the mentally ill to buy guns & supprted healthcare reform that didn’t cover mental health https://t.co/v5ukaxCfs2

— Stephanie Ruhle (@SRuhle) November 6, 2017

How is it not a guns situation?

Because NRA

I'm not sure it's mental health at all. More along the lines of Red Neck Piece of Shit.

FWIW, now that the full comment from Trump on the Japanese auto manufacturers is out, I think it's pretty clear that he was neither confused nor unaware of them having a major presence in the US. He was lauding two companies for their recent expanded US investment and urging more of the same, which is quite reasonable. Sorry for the pile-on above.

So trivial that both men are keeping it secret.

dola

The Saudis are saying they consider Lebanon to have declared war. This could get out of hand quickly and spark a regional Sunni/Shia war if Jared isn't able to fix it.

If Jared can't bring peace to the Middle East, no one can. He's really great.

Two Kentuckians tell me Rand’s neighborhood fracas stemmed from a dispute over some sort of planting or flora issue around the properties

— Jonathan Martin (@jmartNYT) November 6, 2017

+1

Nice little timeline of the 9 known Trump associates with ties to Russia.

Russians in Trump’s orbit during the campaign and presidential transition - Washington Post

I can totally understand a leaf blowing fight.

If you're mowing your lawn before 8a on Saturday morning, i'm going to bail that guy out, fly him over, and give him a nice helping of bath salts before I turn him loose on you.

I reserve most of that kind of rage for the recycling trucks that beep every time they move ten feet and gleefully crush massive amounts of glass together at 6am every wednesday. WHO SANCTIONED THIS? THEY ALL MUST DIE!

Interesting (Sad?) approach to Trump's fight against climate change-use kids in lawsuits against him:

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-u...-idUSKBN1D62UW

I think his admin is in real trouble with lawsuits after the climate change report they were forced to release last week

Ed Gillespie is a perfect encapsulation of my problems with the GOP. I doubt he's personally racist, but he's built his entire campaign on encouraging the worst thoughts of racist voters. Too many GOP electeds have been doing this for years and there's a direct line from this crap to electing Trump.

Today marks the end for Governor Christie, he of the about 16% approval rating. For which the people of New Jersey can rejoice. Perhaps they will have a party on the beach he closed down for all but his family to celebrate.

That's the base. You don't get to pass unpopular policies unless you give them something they want.

Oh I understand the strategy, but they can't complain when they get called on their white nationalist bullshit. They encourage this monster election after election. At some point it doesn't matter if you're a racist, if you continually rely on racist appeals to win.

Where do they find these weirdos?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/danalex.../#28bbfa567515

That fat sack of shit can't leave Trenton soon enough for me. A corrupt embarrassment in the Governor's mansion, as is tradition.

And no surprise, as soon as the polls closed, Phil Murphy (D) is projected to be the next governor.

Virginia was projected to be a tight race, but has already been called for Northam.

And Dems might also have a chance to flip the House of Delegates in Virginia.

Northam in a walkover. Also, VA makes pretty big news with Danica Roem.

We're seeing the Trump effect quite solidly tonight. He's a godsend for the near future of the Democratic Party.

Is there anyway at all that the UCLA shoplifting incident timed with the Trump east Asia tour will somehow result in a war of words between Trump and Lavar Ball?

Please tell me there is. I would find this immensely satisfying.

Former WWE/TNA wrestler Matt Morgan elected to the city council of Longwood, FL.

Unless you're Donald Trump.

Ed Gillespie worked hard but did not embrace me or what I stand for. Don’t forget, Republicans won 4 out of 4 House seats, and with the economy doing record numbers, we will continue to win, even bigger than before!

— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) November 8, 2017

Danica Roem wins in Virginia, becoming first openly transgender state representative - The Washington Post

The author of a trans bathroom bill in Virginia lost his seat to a transgender woman.