Woot! Finally a "break" goes our way.

Prediction: We won't see Eric Gagne tonight.

Really? Was that necessary?

Amen. Dear god, what a blowhard.

Don't mind him, he must still be bitter about the ass-whoopin' Manny delivered in 2004.

Calling someone a piece of shit v. not hustling

It's not clear which is worse.

I hope Manny hits a home run tonight and takes 5 minutes to run the bases. Just because I think it's funny when people freak out about stuff like that.

At some level, me too.


Tell me, is there a baseball fan alive who thinks Tim McCarver has something intelligent to say? If Deion Sanders did it again, would anyone object?

All set and done, this is a masterful performance by Beckett.

I have a question for the people who kill Manny for not husteling, etc...

Would you rather have Manny and his antics or David Eckstein who hustles every play?

Yes.

Probably the reason baseball is really losing me as a fan. Oh well, he'll continue to get paid because he can hit.. no skin off his back.

For the recored, Pujols does that too and it irks me.

Considering we won the WS last year, those memories are gone.

You're one of those fans who thinks it's cool when your team is down 42-7 in a game and your favorite player gets a sack, spends 10 mins showing off about how good "he" is.

Lets pick a comparable player shall we?

Manny or Matt Holliday?

meh. manny is right in a way with his comments. he's the smart one. gets paid 20 million a year to hit, go home and call me when the next game is.

I had no problem with what he said since in fact it isn't the end of the world if the red sox don't win the series and yes they'll play again. Part of it is I get a kick out of all the tears shed and angst by red sox nation. It's pretty funny actually.

the point is "hustle" is overrated. I'll take a guy like Manny anyday. It's great if you have a guy who does both.

A Manny divided against itself cannot exist. Laid back Manny and Hustling Manny meet and world's collide.

And that compelled you to call him a "piece of shit" - are you frigging serious? You can have your lineup of HTWG's - I'll take good players. Without Manny, this series is almost certainly over - he's been the best hitter, by far.

Manny's been a beast since Year 1. Holliday took forever just to get to the majors and it's no guarantee that he's gone to be able to sustain it on a non-Coors aided team for a decade.

I wouldn't say it's "cool".

And I've never ever seen someone spend 10 minutes celebrating a sack, so it's difficult to cut through your hyperbole and see a point. If someone celebrated for 5 seconds for a sack - I might be mildly annoyed if he's a guy that hasn't proven himself, otherwise, I understand that emotions can come out in a game. A brief few seconds of celebration never killed anyone, and may simply be a natural response in a lot of cases. Playing a game is a different experience that watching it.

But in any event, it's not going to ruin my day. It's really not that big a deal. Who the fuck cares if someone spends 2 seconds looking at a home run? Don't you have better things to worry about?

The only Manny things that have annoyed me during his Red Sox run is his tendency to (apparently) stretch out his rehab time from injuries. He's a guy that enjoyed his Pawtucket rehab stint so much he didn't want to come back to Boston. He preferred the AAA ballparks. I feel like that's a legitimate thing for a fan to be pissed about.

Lack of hustling can occasionally cause an in-game effect, but pretty rarely. I refuse to get worked up over that. Sports is entertainment for me - so the things that upset me are few. Manny's lack of hustling cost him a base last night. Big deal. I wouldn't trade home runs/average/plate discipline for an extra base here and there.

A-frigging-men. As hitters go, Manny is probably one of the best - a career OPS+ of 154 is stunning, and while 2007 was a disappointment, I'd bet on him to bounce back. Holliday's single season best OPS+ was 150 - this year. Manny's defense is god awful and detracts from much of his value, but self-righteous posturing doesn't change just how good he is. I'd much rather see Manny play than a lineup of Ecksteins.

And I think it can't be emphasized enough that the Manny forgiveness/analysis depends on the fact that he's not a criminal, has a good relationship with the fans, and comes across as a nice guy. Add all of that to being a complete player on the field, and the quirks are really very minor.

So Manny's one step ahead in likeability over the great player who doesn't hustle and is a total asshole (Barry Bonds).

And that's where I think you're trying to have your cake and eat it to - carving out an exception. Bonds was the single best player on the Giants - by far. I'd much rather have him than Eckstein and co as well. Red Sox fans (and consistent fans like me) love Manny - rest assured, Giants fans love Bonds. We'd much rather see him not hurt his knee running out a meaningless fly ball than "hustle" for the sake of a bunch of old farts.

Hmmmm. I'd rather have Bonds than Eckstein on my team, definitely. But I wouldn't be a big fan. I dion't know if I would get behind him or defend him like I do with Manny. I really can't think of a comparsion. It seems with Boston teams, once the fan base really turns on someone, they're quickly moved out of town, so it's not something I've really experienced. What are the most overall unlikeable athletes in the last 20 years of Boston Sports? There's not a ton. (I'm sure that if Larry Bird was around today, he'd be considered an arrogant jackass, but his team's fans would still love him).

I don't just tolerate Manny - I'm a big Manny fan. I was just expressing that lack of hustling and the quirkiness is SO minor in the overall Manny picture.

Hey, I'm with you on that - Manny was/is my favorite Red Sox player from when I was in Boston (well, after Petey). Then again, I like Bonds as well - a lot. I always admire guys who couldn't give two shits what the media and the world at large thinks of them - who just do their job, damn well at that. They're both joys to see hit.

I think there is a distinction though between being aloof and just being a dink. In both cases you don't care what anyone thinks but it would seem to be different.

Worry about? I'm not fucking worrying about anything. I just don't like the way Manny goes about his business, is that ok with you?

That's not quite how you phrased it earlier, which is the post I was responding to.

"Piece of Shit" tells me you're more conerned about this than most people.

Edit: and also "Probably the reason baseball is really losing me as a fan. Oh well, he'll continue to get paid because he can hit.." expresses the importance you have put on this. That's what I was responding to.

I'd argue that Big Papi has been equally good.. and Manny's hitting didn't win games 2-4.. but whatever.

POS might have been a bit harsh, but at the time that ticked me off.

manny doesn't play well in middle america

It just frustrates me when someone who is as good a hitter as Manny is has to do shit like that.

I don't care how he looks, dresses, talks to the media, or how his relationship with the team is.. what I do care about is how he plays the game of baseball.

better then 98% of anyone else in the game, regardless of his antics

Hilarious.

And I love what Beckett said about his ex-girlfriend. Totally called that. They probably miscalculated as front office folk usually do. It's like when Chuck Finley played for the Indians and that team played a Whitesnake song that had a video that featured his ex-wife and he got shelled or something and the White Sox had to apologize.

Beckett is pretty f-ing clutch and so, if the Indians thought they were being clever, clearly they miscalcuated.

Nice, you'd do fine as a BoSox GM!

Wow never thought I could get fired up about a series with the INDIANS! But, this has me ready to get game six on. Shit they should make it a doubleheaeder! I didn't think to much until the Indians got cocky and such.

http://www.chroniclet.com/2007/10/19...eam-wont-fail/

What'd he say? I missed it.

Oh come on. I really doubt the Indians had Danielle Peck come in to "distract" Beckett. If the Red Sox did something like this, Red Sox Nation would be beside itself with glee.

and RedSawx/Pats fans wonder why everyone hates them and their teams...

He thanked the Indians for flying one of his friends to the game and letting her watch it for free.

Legitimate question - is there anyone people would take over Beckett in a playoff game at this point? He may or may not have deserved to win the Cy Young award this year, but it seems his mentality is perfectly suited to the postseason vs. certain other pitchers who wilt under pressure.

Can't wait for tonight. If we lose throwing an over the hill 40yr old out against the best pitcher in the AL, so be it, and if we win that's even better. Although Westbrook in Game 7 scares me for some reason - probably because he's the type of pitcher we struggle against, first pitch strikes and all forcing us to change our approach at the plate.

And for the 2nd time this thread and 9th time this postseason, start Jacoby Ellsbury. WTF are you waiting for Francona.

Yeah, no reason to get up just because it's the ALCS.

SI

Speaking of dreaming about being in the ALCS, the Royals hired Trey Hillman yesterday. Anyone with any thoughts there (other than he was mentioned in ESPN.com's article as "Yankee mangerial candidate" as his reason we should know him :mad:)? A friend of mine has already ordered a Nippon Ham Fighters hat :D

SI

Can you can over this angle for 1 day? Jesus.

The obnoxious Indians fans thought this was over at 3-1. The obnoxious Rockies fans think the World Series will be a cakewalk.

90% of your posts in this thread are this tone - can't you start another thread so we can talk about the ALCS/World Series/Off-season stuff in here?

:D

That's just awesome.

There's actually a fair amount of history between the two teams, for those who have memories prior to 2004.

Ya, since the Wild Card started, the Indians, not the Yankees, are actually the Red Sox' most common playoff opponent. (And some of those series were very memorable)

Maybe Galaril is a newer fan, I don't know, but I just get tired of the dime-like antics in every Patriots/Red Sox thread, especially now when I see Indians and Rockies fans even more cocky.

Not a new fan and I am well aware of some of rivalrish type situation we have had going all the way back to the 1948 season when the Indians spoiled a chance for the only all-Boston World Series by winning a one-game playoff against the Boston Red Sox . I have been a Sox fan for 31 years going back to 1976. No pink hats in my closet;) My family have been season ticket holders for over 22 years. I hadn't actually noticed the Rockies fans being arrogant or cocky. The couple of dozen people I know out in Denver were all humble and just happy to be in the big show.

Apparently he's one of those rare managerial candidates. He's intelligent. Here are some things posted about him in another forum:



He has been a big advocate of the big inning - drawing walks and hitting home runs. Then he got to Japan and found a team that didn't do that well. So he adjusted to small ball and it worked really well. Basically, he doesn't adhere strictly to either philosophy, but will do whatever it takes to win with the personnel he has. I love guys like that. He seems to be willing to try new things - to think outside the box, and doesn't seem to adhere to any "book."

He seems to command respect among players. He doesn't dole out playing time according to personalities, but according to results. He is meticulous about studying the best way to use a bullpen.

I can't think of a much better available candidate the Royals could have chosen.


Interestingly enough, Hillman won his title by incorporating certain Japanese ways into his management style.

The 45-year-old Texan had gone through his first three years managing the American way with unsuccessful results.

"It was clear that what I was doing wasn't working," Hillman said. "So I asked my players and coaches for suggestions. First, they told me they wanted longer practices -- no more of this half-day routine, in camp. So, against everything I believed, I kept them there until 5 p.m., working on defense, among other things.

"They also wanted more bunting, which is typical for Japan, but went against my big-inning offensive philosophy. But again I said, 'OK,' because this time we had the pitching."

That season, Hillman's Fighters set a new club record for sacrifices, triple the number of the year before, and the entire outfield won Golden Gloves.

With the help of a solid mound corps, led by 20-year-old sensation Yu Darvish, and a spacious home park, the Sapporo Dome, Nippon Ham had its best won-loss record in 46 years.

At the end of the season, an NHK news announcer lauded Hillman for understanding the Japanese way, saying, "Hillman-san is the first American manager ever to make the switch from besuboru to yakyu."

Given the viewing audience, it was praise of the highest sort.

Fair enough - and while I'm not in Boston anymore, this does seem to be the most-hyped non-Yankee playoff game at Fenway since maybe the 1990 ALCS (not including the '04 world series), so I think your previous comment about getting up for "Cleveland" made sense to me.

And I don't particularly think that Rockies and Indians fans are obnoxious - I just the things they say and express are no different than what Red Sox fans say, and only the latter gets a label. (Usually from depressed fans of small-market teams).

Fuck.

Still waiting for Victor Martinez to finish rounding the bases.......If that was Manny the announcers would still be talking about it.

Oh, sorry, that was Victor being Victor. Just ignore it.

okay we'll agree to continue living in different realities, I guess.

the snide remark at the end was delicious irony, though. in one breath you claim red sox fans are just like any other fan, and in the next breath you make an obnoxious, insecure remark about "depressed fans of small-market teams". at least yankee fans are secure enough to not be so defensive about what they were and what they stood for. I guess sox fans are still noveau riche.

on a serious note, this isn't really personal for me, I don't know any of the posters here on a personal level. I've just always been irritated by the sense of entitlement that some sports fans seem to really exude and revel in. it seems so out of place - the players and coaches might deserve that attitude, but all you do is watch them on tv like everyone else. for the last few years, red sox/patriots fans have really been setting a new high/low with this behavior.

Typically the fans that go overboard on hatred of successful teams resent the success of those teams, because their own team lack similar success. In baseball, unfortunately, economics can play a huge role in the difference between the two.

I have nothing against small markets. I live Idaho in god's sake. I'm not in denial of the fact that the Red Sox success is directly related to the fact there's way, way people in the Boston metro area than say, Cleveland. (Which is the ONLY reason for the perceived "East Coast Bias" - networks are going to play to the larger fan base.) But that's where I grew up, so sue me. I don't think I'm entitled to anything. I'm loving the ride. Where I see a sense of entitlement is some fans of small market teams, who feel like they're entitled to more, and are bitter about it.

The sense of entitlement is an utter myth. My boss at work was giving me shit a few weeks ago about how every Boston.com writer picked the Red Sox to beat Anaheim in the ALDS - he said that it was obvious that New Englanders don't think there's a world outside their backyards. I responded that I was a stranger to Boise, where it's Boise State Football 24/7 - as if no other college football program exists. At tonight's game, they showed the clip from the Cleveland writer who proclaimed The Indians the superior team to the Red Sox. It's exactly the same thing.

I think I'd rather see Lester in game 7 than Dice-K - or at at least keep Dice-K on a very short leash - maybe use 'em 3 innings a piece.

As an Indians fan, this is embarrassing. I wouldn't wish something this demoralizing on anyone's favorite team.

I think it's better for them than a 1-run loss in a game like this.

I think you have to keep Dice on a short leash. It's game 7...if he hits one of his rocky-innings and lets two guys on and then gives up a hit...he gets yanked.

Agreed. I like Dice-K and think he had some fairly lofty expectations placed on him since his price tag was so high. That being said the Red Sox and "experts" had warned it will take this guy some time to acclimate to evrything possibly not 1 season but even 2-2/1/2. The guy is only 27 and the Sox got him itied up for at lest 6 years so no worry IMHO. Now with tonights game depleting the Indians bullpen and the Sox able to use the likes of Gagne and Kyle Snider to finish the game out we are in good shape. I say try to get for 4 quality innings out of Matsuzaka and then go to Lester, Wakefield, and Beckett for in see if you get 2 innings out of Lester than skip Wakefield and go to Beckett for a inning and close out with Okajima and Papelbon. This is all assuming they can get a few runs off of Mr Westbrook.

I agree, and I also have been telling everyone who will listen all year that dice will need AT LEAST a year to acclimate to the American game.

Funny story...he lives maybe...two miles away here in my town.

You must live in the really nice part of town not that Wellseley has a bad part;)

mmhmm...oh that's right...you know wellesley somewhat.

dice-k lives right over...basically...right across the street from Babson College...right on the Wellesley Country Club's golf course

FOX just showed the HR's by Manny in Game 4 and the Victor Martinez one tonight, and Martinez actually took longer to get around the bases

Nice diggs that area.

come on by...i'll point out which house we ASSUME it is (we're not certain, but we know which road its on and there's only 2 houses it could be)

That was great. Can't believe this announcing team actually did something helpful for the fans viewing. Also showed that he took longer to get jogging...

And I loved the miked-up Sox player playing the "J.D. Drew, most beloved Red Sox player ever" card for the fickle fans :D

Cross posting from the HGH thread...

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/playof...=ESPNHeadlines

Family, God, and HGH.

Well, as much as I didn't really like Byrd since he was an ass to his fans in KC. He did get the HGH perscribed as he has hormone deficiency so that' just some sloppy reporting from ESPN which has now appended its front page to say "the Indians now must deal with fallout from Paul Byrd's past HGH use, which the pitcher reportedly said was prescribed by a doctor". I mean, the guy wrote about it in a book that's coming out- I don't think this is a big secret.

http://msn.foxsports.com/mlb/story/7358706


SI

Different league and all, but didn't Wade Wilson, a freakin' coach, get suspended for using HGH for a legitimate health concern?

Excuses - the Indians should forfeit game 4! :)

Ugh. Baseball can't stay out of its own way.

How is this baseball's fault?

SI

Paul Byrd's a baseball player, isn't he?

Uh, yeah, so a guy has an upcoming book that the San Francisco Chronicle and their "crack team" gets ahold of and makes a big deal about him legally getting HGH with his own credit card and he doesn't deny it? How is this a story, even?

I took steroids when I was younger because I had (still have) allergies as they're what you take for allergies. If I had been a baseball player, is this suddenly a story?

SI

If baseball had proactive about this from the start and just established a cohesive policy that says "shit happened in the past that wasn't okay. In fact, it was wrong. We are approaching a vigorous policy that will essentially allow people like this to come out and tell us what happened, so we're aware of it. The MLBPA are on board and during this amnesty period there will be no penalties. At the completion of this investigation by Sen. George Mitchell we will vigorously ban anyone found used illegal substances listed on our schedule of "bad stuff".

Baseball would also announce it's shortening the regular season to 146 games, expand by two teams in 2010 and create 4 divisions of eight teams in each league, formally merging the leagues and bringing the sport into the 21st century. The playoffs will include 8 teams in the newly merged MLB.

The bottom line is, take the story away from goofballs like those reporters in San Francisco who seem to love getting as much attention as they can from "unveiling" their "breaking" stories at the worst possible times for baseball. All MLB can hope now, is that the Indians lose, so they don't have to hear about this through what will otherwise be an interesting storyline -- but poorly watched -- World Series if they're in it with the Rockies.

So it's baseball's fault, because in an era where a football player can be suspended for steroids (for just four games, no less) and be honored later that year and the story barely registers more than a few murmurs and even then, only among the sports faithful....it's clearly a double standard being applied to the national pasttime and under the guise of "purity of sport" when really it's just a witchhunt and baseball ought to know rampant it is and if people don't want to come clear, it should kick them out of the game for good.

And if MLB really did know this dude had a prescription for a health problem, they should've pre-empted this story before ESPN could shove it down our throats.

Depends on what kind of steroid you took. HGH is illegal without a prescription. But these days, just the word of "steroids" or "HGH" is immediate judgment of impropriety in the sport, because like you said, a few intrepid "reporters" feel the need to use their new-found fame and credibility to continue focusing solely on baseball players and making it seems as if the game is full of cheaters.

Because they like the attention they're getting and of course, our friends in the media are all about the lede and it's no accident that corrections are hidden from plain view and that sensationalism passes for news these days.

If you were getting them illegally from an online pharmacy and they were giving you a performance advantage in your career? You bet.

I don't know Wade Wilson or Paul Byrd's medical history, but I seem to recall that Wade Wilson claimed it was to treat the effects of diabetes. HGH is not part of the standard of care for diabetes at this time or in the past.

Which would be all well and good if that were the case. But it's not here at all!

He had them perscribed by three different doctors- not one, not two, but three. HGH does have legal uses. Geez- what's so hard to understand about this?

SI

Particularly since the story notes that he's been working with MLB and the Indians for some time with the issue (pituitary gland tumor?).

Pffft...what do YOU know? ;)

I don't doubt that he has some valid prescription. But $25,000 from an online pharmacy that's currently under investigation? I don't buy it.

All those wrestlers that dropped dead had "valid" prescriptions too.

If these prescriptions were all 100% legit, I'm sure it will be cleared up. (But it won't be).

Players have two excuses they run with when it comes to cheating. 1. I didn't know what my trainer was telling me to use. and 2. I have a prescription from a doctor, no one will notice I'm purchasing 100X that if I do it through shady online pharmacies.

And for the record I could care less what Byrd's doing. I assume every baseball player cheats, so I'm past the point where I'm offended.

Don't forget outright denial in some cases and when it involves a positive test of some sort you must question the testing methods.

I don't really care, to be honest. HGH doesn't make the man.

One of those "doctors" was reportedly a dentist and another was through the online pharmacy that is under investigation.

Does anyone else have crappy sound quality on their FOX feed or is this just the KC feed?

SI

Nice pitch

SI

mine is perfectly fine

that may have been the worst hop i have ever seen

Must be the KC station, either that or the Lawrence feed :(

Great job, Jhonny. First your mom misspells your name and now you ole a ball in game 7 of the ALCS. Your life is an abject failure :p

SI

Yeah - I keep hearing Joe Buck and Tim McCarver.

I'm amazed the indians don't have someone at least warming up

Sorry I didn't have time to post it here (it came together at about 5 minutes to game time) but there was a "free money" opportunity on the World Sports Exchange (betting site) centering on tonight's game. It came and went pretty quickly, but at one point, it was possible to get in on both these bets:

BOS to win tonight's game at -170
CLE to win the AL pennant (long term market) at $37 per share to pay 100

So, if you offset these two bets, you could have basically guaranteed a modest win of about 8-10% of the amount of capital you have available to put in. I'll come out ahead by either $175 (BOS) or $215 (CLE) myself, with basically every penny I had in my account tied up in this now.

So, drinks are on you tonight? ;)

SI

what if they tie?

Then everything's a push. Duh :)

SI

lol at manny

I figured it was a home run as he just stood there and watched it

SI

manny gets a lot of crap, but he's actually turned into a fairly decent player of the wall. Don't forget what was it...last year he lead the league in outfield assists?