When all this talk started, I was firmly on the side of the players, but I've been driven to the owners side of things because the players have not put forward any convincing arguments or attempts to reach a resolution. Time is running out.

I'll remember not to disagree in the future.....


Again though. The NHLPA has made it clear they won't discuss a cap, so why continue to offer them one? All of those 6 proposals are a cap of one form or another anyway, they're just not called a cap specifically.

The first one admittedly was a hard cap. The other 5.

1. A performance-based salary system, in which a player's individual compensation would be based, in part, on negotiated objective criteria and, in part, on individual and team performance.

While not a salary cap, it's certainly not market based. I suppose you'd get rid of the Claude Lapointe type contracts, but why is it the players job to police GM stupidity?

2. A payroll range system in which teams could spend within a negotiated range of payrolls.

A salary ceiling and cap. How is this not a salary cap when there is a defined upper range?

3. A system premised on the centralized negotiation of player contracts, where the league would negotiate individual player contracts, either with players and their agents or with the union directly.

The league negotiating all contracts? Again, why should others have to police GM stupidity. I guess it's a fancy way to spell collusion.

4. A player partnership payroll plan (P-4), which would involve individual player compensation being individually negotiated on the basis of "units" allocated for regular-season payrolls, supplemented by lucrative bonuses for team playoff performance.

"units" so if each team is given x amount of units to be divvied up at the end of they year, again, it seems to me as though there is an upper limit being set (the # of units x the value of a unit)

5. A salary slotting system, which would contemplate each team being assigned a series of "salary slots" at various levels, each of which would be allocated among each team's players pursuant to individual player-team negotiation.

Again, a plan with a salary ceiling. Each team gets 5 slots at w, 5 slots at x, 5 slots at y, and 5 slots at z. Does this not in effect put a cap on spending?

Yes, if those are what were offered the players, Daly can truthfully answer no to the question of whether all proposals involved a hard cap. I still think he's lying though. Call them units, slots, negotiated payroll ranges or whatever. They all involve an upper limit on spending per team do they not?

:)

I guess my question to you Tekneek is this. If you offer someone something you know they won't accept, are you really negotiating in good faith or playing the PR game with the fans?

Why do they need to fix the owners problems though? I honestly don't see anything wrong with the current CBA. What's so bad about it? The players gave the owners a rookie salary cap years back. How long did it take Boston to fuck that up for everyone?

I am all for every team deciding not to make bigger offers. I'd rather the 'market' correct itself, but apparently that would be illegal. The union wants all the benefits of a 'free market' without the downsides. If both sides would agree to shelve the idea of a CBA completely and let the 'market' decide everything, I would go right along with them, even if it meant the folding of my favorite team (Edmonton).

If I only made one offer, I wouldn't call it an attempt at good faith negotiations. If I made 6 to their one, I would say I was working harder at it than they were.

I suppose that's my point. I don't see how any of those offers are in good faith knowing how the PA feels about a cap.

Am I the only one who sees them all as involving a cap?

Hasn't the market started to correct itself though? Bertuzzi got what? 7mil a season. My guess is a few years ago, that would have been 10 easy. Salaries are clearly on the downswing, much as they have been in baseball for the last 2 to 3 years.

Surely the NHLPA could come up with at least a couple more ideas, right? Now that they have 6 proposals representing the league's position, they could come up with ONE more proposal? They've sat on their very first one.

By the very concept of collective bargaining, you are purposely intending to avoid the free market.

I'd rather the league determine which franchises can go on as things stand and which cannot. Then go to the NHLPA and tell them that they will continue with the same CBA, but x number of teams will fold meaning that x number of players will have to find real jobs. Then let the players either show up or go on strike.

Because the owners aren't bargaining in good faith by giving them 6 different options for a salary cap. We might as well agree to disagree here. The owners fucked this up, they need to fix it.

Things wrong with the CBA from a small-market perspective:

- Rookie Bonuses: Boston didn't screw up; the NHL screwed up in not recognizing bonuses wouldn't count under a rookie cap. Having to potentially pay up to $4 million for a rookie is cost prohibitive but it was just a matter of time before a crafty agent like Mike Barnett exploited the opening.

- Salary Arbitration: An example just happened with Kiprusoff getting a 269% salary increase. The only recourse is to walk-away from the decision and grant the player unrestricted free agency. Clearly, many teams can't afford to let good players go and reluctantly agree to the arbitrator's decision. Meanwhile, where is management's option to reduce a player's salary when the player performs poorly and doesn't meet mutli-million dollar expectations?

- Hold-Outs: A player who doesn't have arbitration rights has the option to hold out and demand either a bigger contract or a trade. Despite the fact that there is restricted free agency, the team has little choice but give in to demands. Derek Morris and Jarome Iginla took this tact with the Flames and the team gave them what they wanted. Mike Comrie pushed the issue with the Oilers and got his trade despite just having received $3 million by reaching rookie bonuses. The current CBA doesn't provide a solution to this scenario.

- Restricted Free Agency: Although a player's rights can be retained by making a qualifying offer, the qualifying offer is at the same salary level (or at salary +10% for those under the league average salary). Chris Pronger had to be qualified at $9.5 million or St. Louis would have lost his rights. Coming off an injury plagued season, why should the team have to qualify him at such a price tag? Why should the Kings have to qualify Allison at $8.5 million? And the 10% qualifying offers for average players are not frequently signed. This year is an exception though and the minimal market correction we've seen is only due to the threat of a salary cap under a new CBA.

- Unrestricted Free Agency: When the richest teams in the league sign players to multi-million dollar contracts, it has an inflationary effect on every team in the league. The problem with, for example, the Rangers signing Holik to a $9 million/year or Boston signing Lapointe to $5 million/year is that is doesn't penalize them - it penalizes the entire league. Suddenly, defensive centers and grinding wingers want comparable salaries. A cap or similar mechanism would hurt the Rangers and Bruins for making stupid signings without penalizing small market teams.

dola,

On another note, Hal Gill got a broken foot in tonight's game. The US now needs to find yet another defensive replacement.

Keith Carney declined to participate which is disappointing. Derian Hatcher pulled out for "personal reasons". Maybe Lilles from Colorado is the next option?

The salary of Team Canada is over $100 million.

I gotta say, this is the first time I can remember this thread getting hostile and if we count up the NHL threads, that's nearly 5K posts and 35K views. And this is a thread with Wings fans and Avs fans, Wings fans and Blues fans, Wings fans and Hawks fans... hm... those Wings fans have a lot of people who don't like them (H_B!) but it's always been friendly for as long as I can remember.

But my point is that there's a lot of disagreement and it's not that you disagree but the fact that you started out your first post in this discussion with "Wrong answer" directed at a particular poster which just showed a lack of respect. Disagreeing is great, but let's keep it civil.

SI

I heard that USA was thinking of inviting Berard when Martin got the call, so, he is probably on the radar.

You don't think that is what they are trying to do?

That's what I was referring to.

I'll try to remember to include smilies next time.

No, not really. They're trying to force a cap on the players, one they know won't be accepted. Bettman promised the owners a cap and he's willing to blow the game up to acheive one. Won't matter imo, they'll blink long before the players.

The owners collectivelly bargained all these things. Yes, Boston did fuck up the system for everyone. Had they walked away from Thornton he would have gone back in the draft and that's a big loss for them no doubt. What if he went back in the draft, tried for the same contract again and didn't get it from that team either, how long do you think it would have been til he signed with someone for the rookie max?

The players got salary arb, and the owners got later UFA age, it's a tradeoff and one that hasn't worked especially well, but again, they put the system in place.

Yes, the qualifying offer system sucks. But who gave Pronger/Allison those monster deals to start with? I don't believe they came through arb, but I could be totally wrong.

I agree that contracts like those given to Holik/Lapointe affect everyone else, but the fact is, you don't need a 5mil checking winger or a 9mil checking center as everyone short of NY and Boston have figured out.

Honestly, if you can't figure out how to run a team on a budget of 40 to 45 mil when you have control over players from age 18 to 32, I really don't know what to say. Hire good hockey people to run the team and you should be ok. New Jersey in the last 4 seasons has had payrolls of 39, 43, 56, and 48 million and is always a top team. Draft well, have success, and the money will come to increase payroll. The only guys who benefit from a cap will be the owners lining their pockets with the extra reveune. I'm not saying that's a bad thing as it is their investment. But I don't believe they have to have a hard cap to survive which is what they're essentially saying.

Sure, that player may become to rich for you through arbitration, so you move him for someone else. I'm not sure that lowering UFA to 27 or whatever they've discussed is going to be any more beneficial to small market teams, but that's just me.

Don't forget the Flames and Oilers fans. It's amazing we haven't come to blows! ;)

According to the local paper, the Canucks have had talks with Kariya's agent.

That's only because we outnumber you 3 to 1. Unlike Flames fans, we fight fair. :D

Add Leafs fans vs Everybody else :)

Here's another good article from Kevin Dupont of the Boston Globe. I suppose I could be skeptical about all the numbers in the article but any way you slice it, it doesn't look good for hockey.
http://www.boston.com/sports/hockey/...n_labor_talks/

From Karim's article:
Interesting quote.

think he regrets turning down Anaheim's money yet?

Wow. Gretzky continues to spend in the desert....

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/news_story.asp?id=96395


Coyotes load up with Nedved, Gauthier


TSN.ca Staff



8/26/2004

The Phoenix Coyotes announced Thursday that the team has signed free agent centre Petr Nedved to a three-year contract. As per club policy, terms of the contract were not disclosed.



They also announced that they have traded centre Daymond Langkow to the Calgary Flames in exchange for defenseman Denis Gauthier and left wing Oleg Saprykin.



"In Petr Nedved, we have acquired a 6-foot-3 center who handles the puck very well and will be a valuable addition to our power play," said Barnett. "Petr consistently averages 50-60 points per season. Signing him as a free agent has enabled us to trade for Denis Gauthier, the physical defenseman which we were seeking, and Oleg Saprykin, a young, talented forward who brings additional speed to our lineup."



"We have indeed given up a proven and consistent NHL player in Daymond Langkow," added Barnett. "In return, we have enhanced our roster with the addition of three large and talented NHL players."





Last season, the 6-foot-3, 196 pound Nedved played 81 games with the New York Rangers and Edmonton Oilers, recording 19-27-46 and 44 penalty minutes (PIM). Nedved scored 7 power play goals, 3 game-winning goals and averaged 18:43 minutes of ice time per game. He played 65 games with the Rangers, collecting 14-17-31 and 42 PIM and 16 games with the Oilers, registering 5-10-15 and 4 PIM. Nedved has scored 20-or-more goals in seven of his last eight seasons (19 goals last season).



The 32-year-old native of Liberec, Czech Republic has scored 76 career power play goals, 13 shorthanded goals and 38 game-winning goals. He has scored 20-or-more goals eight times and 30-or-more goals four times. Nedved has also recorded 30-or-more assists six times in his career and reached the 70-point plateau four times. His best season came during the 1995-96 campaign when he registered career highs in goals (45), assists (54) and points (99).



In 2002-03, Nedved played 78 games with the Rangers, recording 27-31-58 and 64 PIM. Nedved ranked 2nd on the team in goals and 3rd in points. He scored 8 power play goals, 3 shorthanded goals and 4 game-winning goals and averaged 20:20 minutes of ice time per game.



Nedved, who defected to Canada from the Czech Republic on January 2, 1989, represented Canada at the 1994 Winter Olympics in Albertville, France. He helped lead Team Canada to a silver medal by recording 5-1-6 in 8 games. He tied for the team lead in goals and ranked 2nd in scoring. He also collected 19-12-31 in 17 pre-Olympic games.



In 13 NHL seasons with Vancouver, St. Louis, the New York Rangers, Pittsburgh and Edmonton, Nedved has played in 889 games, collecting 301-379-680 and 610 PIM. He has also appeared in 65 career playoff games, recording 17-23-40 and 56 PIM.



Nedved was originally drafted by the Vancouver Canucks (1st choice, 2nd overall) in the 1990 Entry Draft. He is the third highest Czech born player ever drafted behind Roman Hamrlik (1992) and Patrik Stefan (1999).



Last season, the 6-foot-3, 224 pound Gauthier played 80 games for the Calgary Flames, setting career highs in assists (15), points (16) and penalty minutes (113). Gauthier ranked 3rd on the Flames in penalty minutes and averaged 18:43 minutes of ice time per game. He finished the season with a plus-4 rating. In the Stanley Cup playoffs, Gauthier played 6 games for the Flames, collecting one assist and 4 penalty minutes. He averaged 18:33 minutes of ice time per game.



In 2003-03, the 27-year-old native of Montreal, Quebec played 72 games for the Flames, registering 1-11-12 and 99 PIM. He averaged 19:52 minutes of ice time per game and finished the season tied for 1st on the team with a plus-5 rating.



In 7 NHL seasons with Calgary, Gauthier has appeared in 384 games, recording 13-45-58 and 515 penalty minutes with a plus-15 rating. Gauthier was drafted by Calgary (1st round, 20th overall) in the 1995 Entry Draft.



Last season, the 6-foot-1, 190 pound Saprykin played in 69 games with the Flames, setting career highs in games played, goals (12), assists (17) and points (29). Saprykin scored 4 power play goals, had a plus-1 rating and averaged 13:47 minutes of ice time per game. In the playoffs, he helped lead Calgary to the Stanley Cup Finals, appearing in 23 games and collecting 3-3-6 and 14 PIM. He scored one power play goal, one game-winning goal and one game-tying goal for the Flames.



In 2002-03, the 23-year-old native of Moscow, Russia played 52 games with Calgary, registering 8-15-23 and 46 PIM. Saprykin finished the season tied for 1st on the team with a plus-5 rating and averaged 11:53 minutes of ice time per game. He had five multiple point games.



In 5 seasons with the Flames, Saprykin has played in 187 NHL games, recording 29-47-76 and 132 PIM. Saprykin was drafted by Calgary (1st round, 11th overall) in the 1999 Entry Draft.

Last season, the 5-foot 11, 185 pound Langkow played in 81 games for the Coyotes, registering 21-31-52 and 40 PIM. Langkow finished T-2nd on the team in points, plus/minus and game-winning goals and 3rd in goals and assists. He also led the team in faceoffs taken (1472) and had 12 multiple-point games.

In 9 NHL seasons with Tampa Bay, Philadelphia and Phoenix, Langkow has played in 625 games, registering 136-218-354 and 374 PIM. The Coyotes acquired Langkow from the Philadelphia Flyers in exchange for a 2nd round draft choice in the 2002 Entry Draft and a 1st round draft choice in the 2003 Entry Draft on July 2, 2001. He was originally drafted by the Tampa Bay Lightning (1st choice, 5th overall) in the 1995 Entry Draft.

--------------

Ouch. That hurts. Nedved fit in so well with Oil in his short stint there. It seemed like he would stay and be a talent for a reasonable amount of cash. A talent that Edmonton seriously needs. Gretzky's been really agressive down there in the desert. They have signed a ton of free agents so far. Far and away the most of any team. It will be interesting to see if he can turn things around.

No more then he regrets taking Colorado's cash ...

The Stanley Cup visits my town! Love the story of the rookie dinner too!

http://www.nhl.com/hockeyu/history/c...34_082604.html

Last fall's NHLPA luxury tax proposal...
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/Con...acodalogin=yes

$40+ million - 10 cents on the dollar
$50+ million - 20 cents on the dollar
$60+ million - 30 cents on the dollar

The whopping proceeds would be redistributed among smaller market teams. Looks like Goodenow has been drinking too much of Donald Fehr's kool aid.

Wow, that is nowhere near reality.

That NHLPA proposal is the one that was supposed to be such a great deal? Obviously there is room for them to meet somewhere in the middle, if only they were willing. They are playing with fire. I know a lot of fans are willing and ready to walk away if the season gets messed up at all. This will hurt both parties tremendously.

Gosh, can't understand why the owners didn't jump all over that.

That's about as toothless as the Yankee tax for MLB.

SI

Interesting announcement today (no link yet...just heard about this on the radio)...

The Original Stars Hockey League (OSHL) will drop the puck on their inaugural season this coming Friday. What I know of it is this:

- It's basically a barnstorming league -- 6 teams, all games will be played at various locations in Ontario: Barrie, Sarnia, Ottawa, Kitchener, Brampton, Toronto (Ricoh Col.), etc.
- Games are 4 on 4, all the time.
- No-touch icing
- No red line
- No minor penalties -- they'll use penalty shots instead
- There is a shootout at the end of every period, I'm assuming with any goals scored being added to the overall score.

Some of the players who have already signed up: Aki Berg, Nathon Perrott, and Chad Kilger got most of the mentiones (this is Toronto radio, after all), but they also listed Jason Spezza and Doug Weight among those committed.

Also, the league makes no bones about the fact that it will close operations the *second* the NHL reopens for business, whether said time is on the eve of their championship game or otherwise.

If nothing else, it sounds interesting. :)

Toronto or not, Chad Kilger getting more press than Doug Weight or Jason Spezza is just not right.

Dan Cloutier signed up for that league a while back iirc. I also seem to recall them possibly playing in GM place, though maybe that was another rogue league.

I read an article the other day that said Jason Spezza would be willing to report to Binghamton and play in the AHL if there is an NHL lockout. It doesn't seem like he could do both...unless this OSHL is going to be over before the AHL season gets underway.

In fairness, I heard 3 sports updates on my commute home (they do them every 20 minutes), and Kilger was only mentioned in the last one. Berg, Weight, and Spezza were the only ones mentioned in all three. :)

Apparently Hasek is going to be in the AHL too. Apparently, anyone who was on the injured list at the end of last season or is right now (I'm not sure which) is eligible to play in the A for conditioning purposes. I also heard guys on the IL still get paid their NHL salaries until they're medically cleared to play. Not sure about that though.

So it's official now? We're locked out?

Yes you are, are you working out with MoDo during the lockout, going to Europe, or playing in the Original Stars league?! :D

I think I'm going to play NHL 2005 on the XBox. I rule.

Bettman sounded angry (I heard it on the radio). Goodenow sounds like he's willing to wait this one out.

As well he should :)

The numbers released yesterday show a $50 improvement in NHL losses from $275 mil to $224. Trevor Linden was on local radio talking about it. According to him, 6 teams made up $170 mil of the 224. 2 teams he said had horrible leases (My guess is Pittsburgh and .....) 2 teams were just spending far more then their market allowed (he mentioned a guy who wanted a better team then his brother in law. My guess St Louis trying to best Colorado. No idea who the other team would be) and 2 teams that were in non traditional markets who couldn't get good attendance (Carolina ??? and....)

So if the other 24 teams were losing an average of $2.25 million each, why does there need to be a hard cap again? If they just took the players offer of a 5% rollback in salaries, most of those teams would be in the black.

:)

Interesting...

Report: Devils' Madden on the fence

TSN.ca Staff/CP



9/16/2004

The NHL lockout is not even a day old and one player is already saying he would be willing to accept a salary cap if it saved the 2004-05 season. Devils' forward John Madden told the (Newark) Star-Ledger that he wants the NHL Players' Association to do whatever it takes to get a deal done.


"It all comes down to what's fair," Madden told the Star-Ledger. "The only problem I'm having with things is believing whose numbers are right and whose numbers are wrong. Those are the big issues. And if it needs to have a cap, give it a cap, you know?"


The president of the NHL Players' Association isn't concerned. Trevor Linden said Thursday that Madden is entitled to his opinion; however, Linden said he remains confident the majority of the NHLPA is opposed to any form of salary cap.


Linden, speaking on Vancouver's MOJO sports radio, didn't criticize Madden for his comments.

Related Info Mlakar: Sens losses reduced by lockout Peca prepared to sit out season, again Oilers to lose $13 million in lockout

"Obviously we're going to have some guys with some different opinions," said the veteran Vancouver Canucks forward.


"We have a very strong group that feels very strongly about what we have put forward, the concessions we made and our willingness to negotiate. That's the one thing we are saying. We are willing to negotiate."


Wednesday, NHLPA executive director Bob Goodenow put the blame on the league for failing to come up with a new collective bargaining agreement.


"Unfortunately, the league has rejected all opportunities for compromise, while stubbornly insisting that (commissioner) Gary Bettman has the single solution to every problem -- a salary cap," Goodenow said.


Madden said he certainly wouldn't submit to all of the owners' demands to save the season.


"I'm not in favor of giving in," Madden said. "There's a problem that needs to be solved. It's not my final decision to say whether a cap's going to be involved, but I'm just saying we need to fix the problem. There needs to be a season. We have to find a common ground. And that's where I'm willing to go -- the middle of the road -- with everything."


Madden said that a cap would only be acceptable if it was higher that the reported $31 million offered by the owners.


"Be realistic," he said. "How can you have a $31 million cap? I'm not going to go out on a limb and say what I think the cap should be, but be reasonable."


Other Devils, who were taking part in a golf tournament, took a harder stance. Jamie Langenbrunner said the old CBA worked well enough. He claimed financial losses reported by some teams were the result of nothing more than mismanagement. He approved of the union's proposal, but when asked by the Star-Ledger if he believed there was a figure at which a salary cap could be acceptable to the players, Langenbrunner indicated there might room for negotiation on that point.


"I think that depends on what's included in that cap," he said. "Are they taking away our guaranteed contracts, like they're talking about? That's something I don't think any player's willing to do. There are different ways to do a cap. If you're going to cap the top teams at $30 million and you've got the Pittsburghs, or whatever, spending $10 million to $12 million, how does that improve the league?"


Langenbrunner said he would be in favor of a minimum payroll, too.


Before you start to think that the players were already getting soft, it's worth noting that some players are taking a hard-line stance on the first day of the lockout.


"I just think its one person," Colorado Avalanche centre Joe Sakic said. "He (Bettman) wants a cap and is willing to cancel the year to try to break the players and have us come back next year. I think hes going to be very surprised."


"I think the owners are making a mistake by believing him. Players are trying to find a system that helps the owners and works. He (Bettman) wants everything, and I think hes going to be surprised and the owners are going to be surprised."


Red Wings forward Darren McCarty told the Detroit News, "They (The owners) don't realize that they are dealing with hockey players. Were not other professional people in other professional sports. Were pretty straightforward, and we beat the tar out of each other for a living.


"So we're not going to get pushed around off the ice, either. Weve always stuck to our guns and done what we believe is fair. We dont want it all our way. We want something that we both can agree on. As long as one side feels as if theyre getting cheated, then it's not going to happen."


Goodenow re-iterated the notion that the players won't give in.


You know hockey players. You know what theyre about," he said. "You know how they feel about their profession, their game, their principles. I can only tell you that they feel very strongly about these negotiations. To a man, when I meet with players, the sentiment is very strong. They understand the issues and they are fully prepared to stand by those principles.


"The players have told me they are not prepared to entertain a salary cap in any way, shape, manner or form."

until the players that don't make millions a year start really feeling the pain in future months. of course the superstars don't want a cap, it really only affects them and not the lesser players.

A good nuts and bolts article from Bob McKenzie, demonstrating the inflationary pressure of big contracts and salary arbitration.
http://www.tsn.ca/columnists/bob_mckenzie.asp

John Madden has recanted...as expected. The NHLPA got to him...

http://www.canada.com/sports/hockey/...2-d626a12f08e4

Peter Forsberg, as expected, will play the entire season in Sweden.
this relieves me of a great deal of interest in seeing this thing fixed quickly...

Any update?

Definitely think the penalty shot thing sounds interesting.

they've already played at least one game - the score was like 16-13 or something.

Yeah, these negotiations always scare me. They always go to show how much like sheep each side is. Or how much like a bad horror movie where the one normal person in the town is a zombie the next day after talking to you. Any time a union member or owner steps out of line, they always recant the next day after a likely stern phone call by leadership. This is why the NBA ended in miserable failure for the NBAPA- they couldn't keep their players quiet as well as many other things but when you had Patrick Ewing and his "We make a lot of money but we spend a lot of money, too" out there daily, you just won't win.

SI

As DD said, the final score was 16-13. Based on the article below (from TSN), it sounded like fun. :)

------------------------------------------------------------

OSHL debut ends 16-13

Canadian Press



9/17/2004

BARRIE, Ont. (CP) - Dan Cloutier allowed 13 goals and got the goaltending win.


That's what can happen in the Original Stars Hockey League. It's zany.


It's certainly not where Cloutier and the other locked-out NHL players wanted to be Friday night but, given their circumstances, they'll play anywhere now. They've gone from the big league to a beer league.


``We're all disappointed with the situation,'' Cloutier said of the collective bargaining impasse. ``I'd much rather be in training camp in Vancouver and playing for my team.


``Hopefully, we'll get this settled earlier than later.''


Till then, he'll don an OSHL sweater.


Cloutier's blue-clad team, dubbed Toronto, beat the red-shirted squad, logically identified as Detroit, 16-13 in the SOHL opener. It's a six-team, 13-aside, four-on-four league set up by Mississauga, Ont., businessman Randy Gumbley to give idle NHL players somewhere to skate. A total of 15 games have been scheduled to date. The next one is Sunday afternoon in Sarnia, Ont.


``It was fun out there,'' said Cloutier. ``We had a good time.


``It was pretty wide open for the goalies but at least it was going both ways. It'd be different if it was one-sided.''


Andrew Raycroft of the Boston Bruins was the Detroit goalie. He faced 57 shots. Cloutier saw 55.


``My team came through in the third,'' Cloutier said with a grin.


The OSHL is a goals-galore lark for the players, who'll share the profits - if there are any.


``We were laughing and joking throughout the game,'' said Jamie Rivers of the Detroit Red Wings.


Some fans noticed the lack of big-name players, and some grumbled about the absence of body checking. But youngsters counted down the last 10 seconds and most of the customers left satisfied.


``It's not up to NHL standards but for what it was it had some excitement,'' said Trevor Piper, who drove in from Angus. ``Obviously you miss the hitting but we never really expected any.''


Announced attendance was 2,176 in an arena that can hold 4,500.


``That's pretty good for only three days of promotion,'' said Gumbley. ``And nobody left early.''


Tickets were $34 to $60, which was pretty pricey given the meaninglessness of the show.


``We made some money,'' said accountant Christie Henderson.


Jamal Mayers of the St. Louis Blues, skating for Toronto, scored the first goal and a league spokesman said his sweater, stick and the puck would go into the Hockey Hall of Fame. Like, where? Hope they don't make room for it by taking out any of Rocket Richard's stuff.


Other Toronto goal scorers were Brian Willsie of the Washington Capitals with four, Dan Boyle of the Tampa Bay Lightning with three, Brian Gionta of the New Jersey Devils, Rory Fitzpatrick of the Buffalo Sabres and Bill Lindsay of the Atlanta Thrashers with two each, and Jason Ward of the Montreal Canadiens and Mark Mowers of the Detroit Red Wings.


For Detroit, Rivers scored three goals, Andy Sutton of the Thrashers, Mike Comrie and Mike Johnson of the Phoenix Coyotes had two each, and Jason Chimera of the Coyotes, Matt Bradley of the Pittsburgh Penguins, Aaron Downey of the Dallas Stars and Eric Boulton of the Sabres one each.


Spectator Remy Tahbazian of Barrie, who brought the whole family, had hoped for more big-name players to show up.


``There could be more name-brand people involved,'' he suggested. ``And if they want this taken seriously the players should be taking it more seriously.


``Apart from that, it's pretty good hockey. It's fast and all the goals keep it interesting.''


Scott DeCruz, clad in a red national team sweater, motored in from Dundalk with his son Mitchell to take in the game.


``It's a good venue to see the guys up close,'' said DeCruz. ``My son wanted to check out the four-on-four with no centre red line and no-touch icing.''


Other innovations were line changes made only on the fly, penalties resulting in penalty shots rather than a man sitting in a penalty box, and exhibition shootouts after each of the 17-minute, stop-time periods.


``I thought it was pretty exciting, and it took only a little over two hours to play,'' said Paul Laus, who coached the Toronto team.


``We should all be happy,'' said Grant Ledyard, who coached the Detroit side. ``The effort was there.


``You saw players who don't usually play in four-on-four situations and got an indication of just how good the level of play is in the NHL.''


Rivers pointed out that the players and all of the fans appreciated what, thankfully, was missing.


``The fans got to see some speed, and no hooking and holding,'' he said.

Wow. 13 goals allowed. Cloutier is already in his playoff form.

That's a keeper!

I wish I'd said that first

Here's a site which shows you the salary history of NHL players. Just type in the player you're interested in.
http://www.hockeyzoneplus.com/search...ies-search.cgi

The NHL is winning the PR battle hands down. Here's a nifty powerpoint presentation from the NHL...
http://www.nhlcbanews.com/cba_pres.ppt

After reading that, I have to know, where the heck can you hide money? In other sports, for tax purposes, I know it's common to create a separate entity for concession and advertising revenue and I've heard that owners don't have to report that. But looking at the list here, I want to know where NHL owners hide their money:



- NET GATE RECEIPTS (REGULAR SEASON AND PLAYOFFS)
- PRE-SEASON GAMES (GATE RECEIPTS AND APPEARANCE FEES)
- SPECIAL GAME REVENUES (INTERNATIONAL GAMES, ETC.)
- LEAGUE-GENERATED BROADCASTING REVENUES
- LOCAL BROADCASTING AND CABLE REVENUES
- LOCAL RADIO REVENUES
- LOCAL PAY-PER-VIEW AND SATELLITE REVENUES
- INTERNET REVENUES
- PUBLICATION/PROGRAM REVENUES
- ARENA NOVELTY REVENUES
- NON-ARENA NOVELTY REVENUES
- CONCESSION REVENUES
- LUXURY BOX (SUITE) REVENUES (TICKETS AND LICENSE FEES)
- CLUB/PREMIUM SEAT REVENUES (TICKETS AND LICENSE FEES)
- DASHERBOARD REVENUES
- SIGNAGE REVENUES (SCOREBOARD AND CONCOURSE)
- PARKING REVENUES
- OTHER HOCKEY REVENUES (SPONSORSHIP AND PROMOTION REVENUES, ETC.)

Many teams own (or are owned by) the TV stations that broadcast their games. In those cases, they can "hide" money by booking lower-than-expected revenue, since they're essentially paying themselves.

Very poignant ad. Props to Nike...

Here's an article Bettman and the owners should read...
http://www.grandforks.com/mld/grandf...ts/9746073.htm

Here's an article Goodenow and the players should read...
http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/Edmont...24/641589.html

It's a nice ad, but it rings a little hollow. How about Nike announces that if the season is cancelled it will not renew any NHL endorsment deals, thus costing some of the top players and teams millions of dollars? Maybe that would be some real pressure on the sides.

Hah. Take a real serious stand? Nike is a company that I hate, anyway. It's better that they provide lip service on this issue just like any other issue that comes up in their business.

The NHL is in serious trouble. The lockout's been on for about a week, right? Has anyone noticed or cared? I suppose there will be some attention when the regular season opening date passes, but otherwise, we may be seeing the end of the NHL as we know it. I just read the Forsberg isn't coming back this year, even if they settle. How many other Europeans might do the same?

About the only positive out of this is that my DirecTV bill won't have the annual football/hockey double-whammy price tag. Still, I'd rather pay and see hockey.

I think the NHL will be like other sports that have gone on strike/lockout, the attention that was paid to it prior to the shutdown will slowly come back. I don't worry about it much cause there is plenty of hockey to watch here with HS Elite League going on and College Hockey will start soon.

There's a daily lockout update up here but there's just nothing to talk about anymore. Both sides haven't talked since September 9th. The next drop dead date is January 10-15 after which there is no way for a reduced schedule.

This season is done, there is no way it gets resolved in time.

Don't think this got much widespread publicity, but a few days ago Sidney Crosby was named Player of the Week in the "Q" for the first week of the season.

He had 18 points in six games. (!!!)

With the strike on, this kid will probably have even more media focus on him. He is a amazing player, should be a interesting season for him.

Actually, after re-reading an article I saw, I must admit I was mistaken.

He had 18 points in five games.

How long before his dad starts complaining about the non-calls of penalties on his poor little boy though?!

Crosby will be one of the rookies "shafted" under the new CBA.

It looks like TSN is going to air a CBA proposal of their own in attempts to spur negotiations...
http://tsn.ca/nhl/news_story.asp?id=100496

In other news, the WHA has folded.

I missed the show, but for those interested, here's TSN's CBA "proposal", as referenced by Karim above.

http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/news_story.asp...97&hubName=nhl

At first glance, it seems to make sense, but I haven't really examined it all that closely. Of course, making sense means it has zero chance of ever happening.

I don't know - it didn't really seem to be drastic enough to fix anything. I do like the rookie salary limits, which should be in place for ALL sports. I don't like the idea of putting even more emphasis on arbitration...that's a screwy system as it is.

If the lockout isn't bad enough, more allegations, suits, claims etc. are coming out regarding Hellemond's tenure as head of officiating. Not only was he asking officials for money, it seems referees and linesemen were fired for trivial things that happen every game. "You got in the way of the puck - you're fired." "You were indecisive on that call - you're fired." Half of the referees Hellemond released have been reinstated by the league.

As much as I love hockey...

Hmm... for talk of Sidney Crosby, I really think this kid iis going to be the biggest bust ever now.

Last week the Halifax Mooseheads defeated Rimouski 4-2. That wasn't the real story however. The real story was that Freddy Cabana, a 6th round pick of the Philadelphia Flyers, kneed Crosby and Crosby had to leave the game. Cabana was kicked out of the game.

A shift later, when Halifax capitan (and New Jersey Devils 2nd round pick) Petr Vrana came to the ice, Rimouski sent their goon Alexandre Vachon to the face off circle with him, and as soon as the puck dropped, Vachon immediately started raining punches down on him without paying any attention to the puck, trying to injure Vrana on purpose.

Crosby and Rimouski started complaining right away about the hit, about how teams (such as Halifax) were gooning it up against him. What is this kid going to do when he gets to the NHL? People are going to laugh at him when his daddy is interviewed and says, "stop hitting my kid" (and I'm not kidding, his dad basically did an interview in a paper out here saying that).

Of course, the funniest part of it all was the quote by Rimouski's coach: "It was clear that Cabana was out to hurt Crosby. Their coach (MacKenzie) sent him out to intentionally injure him and that is unacceptable"

I guess Vachon was just out there to tell Vrana he loved him.

That will not play at all when he is in the pros, kind of sad to see.

True, but remember, he is still a kid, he's got a lot of growing up to do. Both psyhically and mentally. Retribution for cheap shots to stars is as old as the game itself, why would you expect it to stop now?

BTW, for anyone who cares, the guy who hit Crosby, Cabana, got 8 games. Vachon, who was sent out there for payback, got 4.

And the coach who sent him out for payback? None.

The Q is so bush league.

I just read in a local paper that a Canadian TV network is going to show games from the Swedish Elite League this winter... is anyone going to watch that ???

I agree with that, but, if Daddy decides to be a ass like that when he's a pro, he won't be very popular on his own team.

I don't know, guys. If I had a kid who had the talent and the skills to enter an industry and immediately make a multi-million dollar salary once he turns 18, and some other kid without any talent or skill was trying to make a name for himself by taking my kid out before it could happen, I'd be pretty pissed off too.

That might be so, but by his Dad making those comments, he is not helping anything.

Agreed. See Lindros, Eric. :p

Not exactly new news but it's one of those "catch up" articles
http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/news_story.asp?ID=99378&hubName=

Three key contracts helped kill the CBA

On paper, the recently expired collective bargaining agreement should have done a better job keeping NHL salaries under control for players in their 20s, but three contracts signed in 1997-98 blew that out the window.

Joe Sakic, Paul Kariya and Eric Lindros signed deals that season that sent salaries into a spiral that in no small part led to the current NHL lockout.

All three deals did irreparable damage to a CBA that should have worked better. And don't blame the players, it's not their fault.

The hope 10 years ago, from the owners' side, was that the CBA would effectively control the rise of salaries because teams controlled players until they were 31, when unrestricted free agency finally kicked in.

The owners hoped to limit some, if not most, Group 2 restricted free agents to no more than a 10 per cent raise on their salary from the season before - as written out in the CBA - especially those without salary arbitration rights.

Yeah right.

Sakic, 28 at the time, was the first shocker. The Colorado Avalanche felt obliged to match a three-year, $21-million US offer sheet made by the New York Rangers in August '97. It was one of the rare times during the CBA's 10-year run from January 1995 to September 2004 where a restricted free agent received an offer sheet.

The Avs preferred to match the offer rather than receive draft picks as compensation.

"The Group 2 system, with the team having the right to match, works extremely effectively," says Sakic's agent Don Baizley. "That right to match just chills the market place, as it does in most business settings. But Joe's situation was exceptional, the Rangers were looking for someone to replace Mark Messier (who went to Vancouver).

"So they came along and made an offer sheet to him, which rarely happened. And Colorado went ahead and matched it."

It more than doubled his salary from the $3.1 million he earned in 1996-97 (the deal was actually broken down as a $15-million signing bonus and $2 million a season in base salary - giving him an average of $7 million a year).

Suddenly, the benchmark for a top player under the age of 31 went from $3 million to $7 million.

And then there was Kariya, 23 at the time. He was coming off his third NHL season, a 99-point campaign when he earned $2.075 million. He was looking for a big raise, but as a Group 2 restricted free agent with not enough NHL experience to qualify for salary arbitration, he had very little recourse.

Under the terms of the collective bargaining agreement, all the Ducks had to do is offer him no more than a 10 per cent raise.

Kariya rejected his qualifying offer and did the only thing he could do: he skipped training camp and missed Anaheim's first 32 games. He wanted Sakic money.

Disney, its Ducks team struggling without its top star, caved in and gave Kariya a two-year, $14-million deal in December 1997, a monstrous raise which changed the Group 2 market forever. What made it worse is that the two-year deal was broken down as $5.5 million the first year and $8.5 million the second season, meaning the Ducks could never qualify him for less than $8.5 million.

In April '98, Ducks teammate and linemate Teemu Selanne received a two-year extension for 2000-01 and 2001-02 which also hit the jackpot. After earning $3.4 million in 1997-98, $4.75 million in 1998-99 and $5.45 million in 1999-2000, the new extension raised him to $8 million for 2000-01 and $9.5 million for 2001-02.

Those deals would not have happened without the Sakic signing in '97.

"The Sakic offer from the Rangers, which Colorado matched, was the first one that saw salaries go up (for Groups 2s)," said one NHL general manager who requested anonymity. "And then shortly after that, Kariya and Selanne, as Group 2s, with no other rights, not even arbitration rights (in Kariya's case), they signed enormous contracts.

"They were good players, but they hadn't won anything and their new deals took them right up to where Sakic was. So those signings affected the entire Group 2 market and became comparable in salary arbitration. And they really hurt, because Kariya was making $7 million and a guy with numbers almost as good is only making $2 million but he now thinks he's worth $5 million."

And then there was Lindros, 24 at the time, who signed a two-year contract extension with the Philadelphia Flyers in January 1998 worth $16 million. The agreement raised his 1997-98 salary of $3.74 million to $7.5 million for that season, and gave Lindros $8.5 million for 1998-99.

And it went on and on for the game's biggest Group 2 stars, Jaromir Jagr and Peter Forsberg later eclipsing the $10-million barrier.

Baizley, based in Winnipeg, represents Sakic, Kariya, Selanne and Forsberg among others. One of the game's top agents who tries to keep a low profile, he admits Kariya's deal had a huge impact on the market for Group 2 players.

"I don't think we can deny it was a pivotal signing," he said. "But it was a signing that took place in a market-place where revenues for all teams were going up. There was a very optimistic view in terms of economic outlook. So this was paid by a company, Disney, that obviously had some projections that they were satisfied they could handle with this salary."

What made the Sakic, Lindros and Kariya deals even more difficult to swallow for the NHL in retrospect is that all three deals came about only after the league agreed with the NHLPA in June 1997 to the four-year extension of the CBA for 2000-2004.

The damage had already been done. And now the NHL wants a salary cap to fix it.

Ironic that only five years later, two of those three players have turned into big-time busts.

Kariya is a big time bust?

Over the last two years, yes. Certainly compared to his salary.

Remember, the guy went from the top line on Canada's 2002 Olympic team to not even being seriously considered for the 2004 World Cup.

I'm flipping through channels, and on FOX Sports, I see the word Stars. I stop, and it's the Dallas Stars Ultimate Collection, which is a show that hilights big games in Dallas Stars history. The first half hour was the first regular season game in Dallas.

Dallas vs. Detroit.
Moog vs. Chevalde
6-4, Dallas. First goal scored by Neil Broten, of course.

It just made me realize how much I miss hockey, and how strange it is to not have it. I'm yelling "GO!" at the tv, hoping Russ Courtnall will carry it up ice, and leaping when they score.

I miss freaking hockey, and I want it BACK!!! Now, you spoiled fuckers!!!

:mad: :mad:


:(

In the down time Sergei Federov is dating Tara Reid. Not really anything, but not nothing either.

i'd say for his career kariya has been overrated. ever since those concussions started, he's never been the same player. that said, when he was healthy he was one of the most entertaining players in the NHL.

But hes had more subpar (for what he showed early on) years then phenominal ones.

Here in St. Louie, FOX shows a "greatest" Blues game every Wednesday night. Oh how I miss the NHL as well. :(

I believe the Monday night miracle is next week.


Todd

Was that the game where Bobby Orr scored to win the cup for Boston?

Todd

Funny you should mention that. When sachmo mentioned the game replay he caught, I immediately thought of how the local stations here have been showing replays of great games involving the Kings and Ducks.

One of the games replayed was Game 6 of the 2003 Cup finals. The one where Stevens clocked Kariya and he actually had to be helped off the ice. Then a few minutes later he came back on the ice and scored a beautiful wrister past Brodeur from the wall near the blueline. Yeah, we lost the series, but that was again incredibly perfect, and I think that was the most I wanted him back with the club since he left us.

I have also gotten to watch the Frenzy on Figueroa (the Kings three-goal comeback and OT victory over the Wings in 2002), the last game of the playoff series with the Leafs and first game with the Canadiens in the 2003 playoffs and Cup finals, and several Ducks games from the 2003 playoff stretch (including that six period win over the Stars, the Game 1 overtime win over the Wings and the Jiggy shutout against the Wild where he made that amazing, acrobatic save).

I miss hockey, too, but at least they will be talking again. The players have a new proposal and the two sides are meeting next Thursday. I don't know if an agreement can save the season, though. :(

CR

I would argue that his decline is due in large part to his inability to stay healthy. If he were healthy, you can bet he would've been on the 2004 Cup squad.

dola


I miss my Whalers. Where are Frantisek Kucera and Alexander Godynyuk when you need them?