Relevance?

Who said they did? At least with Los Anaheim. There's your relevance about who placed the call, we've got no reason to believe that Toronto called the Angels to propose a deal in the first place.

My whole point is that they don't want to do the deal, given the offer that's out there. Who has said they did want to do a deal is also not relevant. I have not been seeking disagreement, just responding to you.

And once again, who made the call still has no bearing on my point. I am guessing everyone interested in Halladay called the Jays, and not the other way around, after Ricciardi publically revealed his availability. You could actually say Ricciardi's announcement was a call to all other 29 teams.

But, regardless, that is still not relevant to what I am talking about.

Which seems to be that the poor Angels didn't get the deal they wanted. BFD.

Presumably they asked what it would take to get the deal done & Ricciardi answered the question. How is there anything wrong with that?

Maybe that's the only package he would accept from them? What in the bloody hell is he supposed to do, tell them "nah, there's really nothing you could do" or tell them the one thing that he'd take in return? It's up to the Angels to say no if they don't want to trade themselves weak at a position, it's not remotely Ricciardi's place to protect them from doing so by declining to ask for it.

Damn, CR, I really don't get what else you wanted him to do unless it's to take less than he wanted for him or simply not answer the question at all.

i think CR's point was just that it seems obvious from the nature of what Ricciardi is demanding in return for Halliday that he is unlikely to get him dealt at all, and maybe never really wanted to deal him, so he was trying to price him out of the market in effect. which is certainly his right, but it does beg the question: "if you're going to set the asking price so high that nobody will meet it then is the asset in question really truly for sale?"

If I offer to sell you my house for $100 billion, knowing that you don't have that much money, is my house really actually "for sale?" Or is it just a case of "everything has it's price so i'll put an astronomical price on this."

Given that they'd get Halladay next year too, I'm kind of surprised the Phillies aren't just willing to suck it up and get the guy. With that lineup and Hamels/Halladay it would be tough for anyone to beat them in a postseason series.

Did anybody really think he wanted to deal him except in return for a near perfect offer? I never had any sense of desperation or even urgency on their part, which makes sense given that he's not leaving in a couple of months.

If the Angels didn't like the deal then I have to imagine that's just fine by Toronto. But this whole attitude of having some burden of answering the question with less than what you actually want/would strikes me as somewhere between bizarre and unbearably arrogant. And it leans STRONGLY toward the latter.

was there some of that attitude in CR's posts? i didn't see it, but i wasn't 100% focused on them, so maybe i missed it

That's very much how it came across to me, as though there was something wrong with the Blue Jays asking for what they wanted ... (edit to add) specifically because it wasn't something attractive to the Angels.

+1

aaaah okay

No, not my point. You're really bad at this.

My point is that if the Jays want to get a deal done, they should spread the talent request around, so that a team considering their offer might actually consider accepting (be it the Angels, or whomever). Since they did not, I propose they don't want to do a deal.

I'm not sure what is difficult about that point for you to understand. Apparently stating it and restating it for you isn't working, though.


I don't "want" Ricciardi to do anything. I am just proposing a possible interpretation on the events unfolding.

I'm not entirely sure this encapsulates my argument, but it's a fair approximation.

If you want to say Ricciardi wants to deal, but not the Angels, I can get behind that. It would certainly work in the Jays favor to move Halladay to the NL.

That said, the Jays' proposals to the Phillies and Dodgers, by all reports, have also been pretty exorbitant. So maybe it does hold true for all teams the Jays are negotiating with.

ahem...... cubs are officially back in their rightful place atop the nl central

No one has argued that the Jays should take less than they think Halladay's worth.


See, the issue here is "less". You think I am arguing the Jays should ask for less. Wrong. I am saying it's nonsensical to ask for both prospects at one position from a team, because you can almost be sure, just on pure logistics, that team will turn it down. The Jays can ask for the same level of talent or even more, but if they have an interest in the offer being considered, it would make more sense for them to ask for, let's say, Wood and Kendrick, who play different positions, instead of Wood and Aybar. Presuming Aybar and Kendrick are on a same level talent wise (arguable, I think they're roughly comparable in level of talent, but I digress...), the Jays aren't asking for less---they are just asking for a deal the Angels are more likely to consider.

Since I never proposed the Jays as needing to ask for "less", I reject your "bizarre and unbearably arrogant" characterization, as it is just another example of your inability to read my posts correctly.

You read it correctly. JIMG read into it what he wanted to, not what I said.

Plenty of relevance. If Anaheim called, then Toronto is just telling them what sort of players they'd want. The Angels can counter and say, well, Aybar and Wood are both 2B, how about Wood and Kendrick with Saunders or something like that.

I mean, this is a negotiation. Of course the original offer is going to be too much to stomach. That's HOW you negotiate. Hell, because you never know. One day someone may actually accept and then you get Johan Santana for a package of crappy minor league prospects (for example).

But my point was to debate the likelihood that that specific offer would be accepted by the Angels, given the way it was constructed. It was very specific to that offer in that moment of time, and nothing else. As such, who called who is not at all relevant, only that the offer was made, and here's the offer.

We don't know what else has been negotiated or what responses have been given from either side. I suppose if that ever comes to light, we can talk about that then.

If we're going for a 1B/DH to replace Ortiz going forward, I'd rather have Adrian Gonzalez. He's a great defensive 1B and actually an elite hitter, not just someone considered an elite hitter because they play (poorly) a certain position half the time.

Actually, I'm kind of impressed with the offer Riccardi recently turned down from the Phils: Happ, Carrasco, Taylor, and Donald.

I never thought that current management would give that much up in any trade for any player. So, J.P. seems to be a good job working the angles to get as much as possible.

I still think a deal gets done between the Phils and Jays. My prediction is Drabek, Brown, Carrasco, Donald (which would be a great trade for the Jays, IMO).

I don't see Adrian Gonzalez going anywhere any time soon. His contract is very nice for the Padres, and there really is no incentive for them to get rid of him, at least for the next 2 years. Perhaps if they are not competing when he is due to be a free agent, they likely will deal him. I think he does not like playing at Petco at all, but for the next 2 years, I don't see him going anywhere.

I have the exact same feeling.

How much more obvious would it have to be that there WASN'T ANOTHER SPREAD OF ACCEPTABLE TALENT TO REQUEST FROM THE FUCKING ANGELS to give them?

Ricciardi clearly knows what he wants from various teams (see Phillies, Philadelphia as a prime example). In this instance, he asked for the deal that was acceptable to him. He's not in this to make the Angels happy, nor does he seem the least bit concerned with making it easy for them to do a deal. He wants what he wants & they're free to take it or leave it. I agree that he doesn't particularly give a damn whether they (or anybody else much) wants to deal or not, nobody's holding a gun to their head but no one is really holding much of a gun to his head either.


As am I, and find your interpretation to be wholly based on ignoring the situation as it is, not as you would apparently like it to be.

Bullshit, that's precisely what you've been insisting they should have done because they clearly don't consider the alternative pieces talent as interchangeable or equivalent. Otherwise they would likely have asked for them or presented them as alternatives fairly quickly.


Pretty big word there, that "almost". Do I believe he thought they would bite on the deal? Not particularly. But there's a zero percent chance of them doing so if he doesn't ask.


Now there's a shocker.

At this point, trying to bluster your way through such an obvious thing, apparently figuring if you protest loudly enough that people will believe you, is actually getting to the point of being more offensive than your whiny ass post was in the first place. I think your protestations are pure unadulterated bullshit, I don't believe a single fucking word of them and I'm genuinely & sincerely insulted that you think I'm actually stupid enough to believe them, and so I'll simply take my leave of the subject now as neither of us are likely to change our positions nor our opinions of what the other has said.

How do you know that? Sources deep in the Toronto and Anaheim organizations? Please, pray tell.


I have disagreed with none of this, so I am not sure why you bothered to type it out.


No, I have pretty much stated the specific situation as it is, as I show in my response above to ISiddiqui. It is you who wants to make more of it than what it is, and introduce your own assumptions and falsehoods into what I'm saying.


You're making assumptions again about what the Jays are doing that presumes information you do not have, unless, again, you happen to be Ricciardi's close personal friend or something. You don't have any more of a clue (and probably less) than anyone else what Toronto's thinking.


It's actually risky. He could end up with two SSs. Even if talented, he just inherits the problem the Angels have, or hope that Wood's training out of necessity at 3B and 1B will pan out. He also risks insulting the Angels, which is very risky if he indeed actually intends to make a Halladay deal, and it turns out that the Phillies and Dodgers decide the price is too high, and no other suitor with the same possibilities as the Angels comes up. And don't think that isn't a real possibility--Moreno has shown himself to be sensitive to public sleights from other teams, particular in negotiations (see, Cabrera and Teixeira).


Ooh, I'm scared now. JIMG is insulted. If you spent half the time reading and comprehending my posts, that you spent locking into your own assumptions and misreads and madly typing away, maybe we wouldn't have gotten to this point.

So, good, go away. This thread's better for it.

absolutely. for Gonzalez i'd happily give up something like the package they were talking about for VMart (plus a little more non-elite)

Has there been rumors lately that Gonzalez is on the market? The Padres would be incredibly dumb to move him honestly for anything short of a can't refuse type of deal. I am actually surprised that they would be shopping him if that is what is happening here.

This is what I wrote previously about Gonzalez to the Red Sox.. Is there actual rumors out there that Gonzalez is going to be traded, or is this more just wishful thinking about a player that is untouchable?

i'm not sure...i've heard it discussed but i'm not sure whether there's been any type of actual substantiated rumors from people or if it's just internet-BS

Yeah but Gonzalez really isn't available. He's younger and a better hitter than Martinez but San Diego has almost no reason to move him. The Padres have said a team would have to "overpay" to get Gonzalez, which probably means a package like the V-Mart one plus more.

Actually, there was a lot of talk about Gonzalez in and around the Peavy deal discussions in the offseason, because it seemed to be widely acknowledged that Gonzalez was not going to stay in San Diego past next year (not sure if that's straight from Gonzalez or what, but it was on the level of presumed fact in discussions I read or heard).

The thinking has been that, like with Peavy, the Moore divorce was going to make it hard for the Padres to offer Gonzalez enough money to re-consider.

All that said, in these same discussions, I also heard/read that the Padres are much more interested in moving Peavy, and that they wouldn't be considering Gonzalez until the Peavy situation was dealt with. Plus, as you know, Gonzalez is just locked into arbitration right now, so the Pads don't really see a reason to discuss moving him before, perhaps, this offseason.

Some of this is from the Angels or baseball boards or rumor blogs and a lot from local radio from months back, when the Angels were being discussed as a possible Peavy suitor, and then nutty Angels fans would try to craft huge deals for Peavy and Gonzalez, too. I hate fans who construct trades that have no public basis as being considered, because they are almost always off the wall ridiculous.

I don't think Gonzalez is moving this deadline. Not sure if someone might take a chance on Peavy with his injury, although I'm not even sure players on the DL can be traded.

Gonzo is locked up very cheaply for 2 more seasons after this one. I actually think the Padres would be foolish to move him at this point. Next year around this time, I could see it.

dola-
San Diego is actually a very good bet to get Strasburg next year. If the Nats don't pay, they'll likely be picking 3rd next year and can snag him. I'd be willing to bet he'll be much more likely to sign for them.

i think that might be getting ahead of yourself on several fronts

There haven't been any outright rumors since the team was sold from Moores and his divorce. At the same time, we know the RS amongst others are interested in him, and I don't get the sense he's untouchable in an Albert Pujols, Hanley Ramirez, Longoria, Mauer type of way. If we were actually going to meet the Blue Jays demands of Buchholz, Casey Kelly +2 more B/B- prospects, the Padres would be silly not to take the deal - that's 2 cost-controlled top 20 pitching prospects in baseball. Even if we were to meet the Indians rumoured asking price of Buchholz+ (and if we were trading for Gonzalez, Lars Anderson would probably be included) the Padres would consider it, although we'd probably try to switch in Bowden instead of Buchholz.

It's less a case of credible rumors out there and more a case of if we're going to give up that much, let's actually get a 3/4/5 hitter going forward who is still in his prime. Bay doesn't profile that way going forward, Holliday was exposed in the AL outside of Coors this year and the best bet on the FA market outside those two is probably the injury-prone Nick Johnson. Halladay is superflous going forward because it probably means we let Beckett go after next year, and I don't think Martinez is an impact bat at 1B/DH or going to stay at C long-term. So since they'll be needing to make a monster trade for a middle of the order bat soon since we didn't sign Teixeira, save the chips up and use them there rather than going for stopgap players.

EDIT - or we could just sign a guy like Julio Lugo, who now has an OPS of 1.800 since being traded. I mean, Manny was expected, but even Lugo is great after being traded??? Come on :)

yeah...that's basically my thoughts put as well as i could put them

I think J.P doesn't want to make the deal. That's one of those trades that turns a fan base against the front office, and there's NO WAY J.P survives a rebuilding project of several years at this point. Really, the only way he stays past next year is if he can keep the team together, some of the younger arms make progress and they have a surprise run.

I can see the owners not minding a trade, so J.P. is officially "listening", but he's signing his own termination papers if he pulls it off.

I'm really stoked. The bats have started coming alive. Soriano looks to be going on one of his streaks while Aramis looks to be close to 100%. Bradley is even showing some signs of life at the plate.

I'm still concerned about the injury to Lilly. He's our rock on the staff and always gives us a shot to win every 5th day.

I think he wants to deal and knows he has to. I think he's just playing it cool right now and knows that there is a chance someone comes up with a Godfather type offer for him.

They have to make this move and try and get 3 top prospects from an organization. Rebuilding is their only option at the moment.

Interesting. So you think this is all some power play in the Toronto office, JP has his marching orders to shop Halladay around, but ownership has given him the leeway to make the "baseball decision", and allowing him to keep Halladay if a good deal isn't in the offing? I could see that. Question is, is Ricciardi more influenced by getting what he believes Halladay's trade market value is, or by his own job security?

I could see him doing this on job security. It seems to me, from what Toronto fans here have said, that JP and his decisions haven't exactly made him popular up there.

Ya, I think it's just kind of a general tension that is probably pretty common between owners and GMs who are on the hot seat. The owners are looking at long term, and money, and the gms need to win now. But if the GM appears TOO much to be focusing on the short term and the now, it's a pretty easy decision for the owners to make to let them go and start fresh. I don't know how much of it is literal "marching orders", but I think (just speculation), that J.P. wants to look like he's got the long term future of the franchise in mind, but has to know that he won't be GM for long unless they win next year.

Yes, I heard on the radio on my way to New Hampshire this morning that SI.com evidently was reporting that the Red Sox were inquiring about Gonzalez, so I guess it is not just some wishful thinking on the part of Red Sox fans, but I still wonder how much of it is the Padres actively looking to move him vs the Red Sox being interested in him and the Padres sitting back and saying "Wow us" similar to what Toronto is doing with Halladay.

I just don't think it makes much sense for the Padres to trade him now unless they are fine with telling their fans that they don't intend on competing for the next 2 seasons. That would be the only reason you trade him right this very second.

You can be sure he will:

1. Allow at least one run per inning.
2. Never get past 5 innings.

Padres are the 2nd worst team in the league this year.
The Nationals may not sign Strasburg.
We now know that a player has to allow a team to "redraft" him the next year.

I don't think it's unreasonable to think that Strasburg ends up in San Diego.
Especially cause they'll basically have all offseason and such to work out a deal with him.

Y'know, I figured this was probably one of those hyperbolic statements that the stats wouldn't prove out. That's usually what happens when I get curious and go look.

Not this time.

-- Only two NL starting pitchers with more than 60 innings have a higher ERA (Manny Parra in MIL and Scott Olsen in WAS.
-- Only one NL starting pitcher has allowed more hits (Aaron Harang in CIN) and he's pitched 17 more innings
-- Only one NL starting pitcher has allowed more earned runs (Bronson Arroyo in CIN) and he's pitched 14 more innings while allowing just one more ER.
-- Only one NL starting pitcher with more than 60 innings has a higher WHIP (Parra)
-- No NL starting pitcher with more than 60 innings has a higher Component ERA
-- In his last ten starts, he's allowed no fewer than one less run than innings pitched 8x. For the season, he's been within 1 of runs allowed/innings pitched in 15 of 20 starts.

This guy almost deserves his own thread.

Wow.. although I figured I was close just from watching him this season.

I'm sending this to LaRussa. :D

Oh, I left out something.
-- His ERA is nearly a half run higher than the Nationals bullpen.
-- His BAA is 54 points higher than the Nationals bullpen.
-- His OPS allowed is nearly 100 points higher than the Nationals bullpen.

The Mets fire Tony Bernazard.

Wow, I never thought I'd see it. The rumor was he had Wilpon's ear better than Omar does and was in line to take Omar's place whenever he moves on.

Not long ago, this seemed about as likely to happen as George H.W. Bush coming out and saying that GWB was a shitty President.

:eek:

Some cringe-worthy numbers from this article:

Major leaguers with the least trade value - ESPN



Barry Zito is still owed $89.1 mil through '13.

Soriano is still owed $94.8 million through '14

Vernon Wells is still owed $116 million through '14.


My apologies to Giants, Cubs, and Jays fans for bringing these up. Its just really hard to comprehend these contracts.

That contract for Wells should be a very fresh reminder for Jays' fans as to why they need to deal Halliday because if they want to sign him it'll be for an even worse contract and they should get as far away as possible from something like that.