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It'll be interesting to see what the general themes are that McCain and Obama are trying to hit tomorrow - does McCain pick up the ball from Palin and continue the Ayers attacks, and if so, does Obama respond with counter attacks or does he attempt to re-direct the discussion back to other issues? I agree with the idea that, since Obama holds a big advantage right now, he should avoid letting himself get dragged into a mud-wrestling contest. On the other hand, he can't completely ignore it either. I think as long as he lets the DNC and others pick up that fight for him while he keeps his talking points on the stump related to the economy and Iraq, he'll maintain his lead (if not increase it) as he appears to stay above the fray. |
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I can accept that except why swing it all the way over to the other extreme? Instead of Thomas and Scalia, we would have more Ginsberg and that is just as bad. Look, there are 5-4 rulings that should go right and other rulings that should go left. I don't want all rulings to go left any more than I want all to go right. Do you think an Obama-Reid partnership would want a Kennedy-like jurist? |
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Certainly not, because any suggestion that he's moderate is ridiculous and certainly not supported by statistical measures. Kennedy votes with Alito more than he votes with any of the liberals. Furthermore, the next two justices to go are likely Stevens and Ginsburg, so appointing a moderate in their places would make the court tilt to the right even more than it does now. |
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Also, as an aside, do people really think companies will stop providing health insurance? I thought this plan was just to cover those who currently lack coverage. Any major/medium company that pulls insurance will be killing themselves as no quality people would work there. |
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Unless the majority of them do, in which case it becomes far less a factor in employment. |
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Agreed. Quote:
Disagreed. I've had a much better experience with private coverage (except for cost) than I ever had with any employer group plan. And I mean by such a wide margin that it isn't even close. From a cost standpoint I wouldn't mind going back to some sort of group, but from a service standpoint we've done an exponentially better job selecting the right coverage for us than any employer ever did. |
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I can tell you that our company would have a max exodus tomorrow with people leaving for Intel, microchip, Motorola and American Express (all close nearby) the second we did. |
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Really- that refreshing to hear as it runs counter to everything I've heard with one exception (BCBS of KS was supposed to be quite good but you pay insane amounts for it). Who do you get yours through? SI |
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Since we opened our own business 11 years ago, I believe we've been with three different companies. (Incidentally, that's fewer insurers than we had in the same time when insured through work). I believe the present one is Globe (although we may make a change after a bit of a rate bump in the latest premium cycle). The others I don't even recall the names off the top of my head to be honest, but never had a claim denied or disputed. Hell, even my cancer-survivor wife has gotten reasonable service from an insurer who took her on after her illness. They seem a little slower in processing claims at times but I've heard nary a whimper from any of the providers about that, they appear to be accustomed to it. It's definitely not cheap, but there were ways to make it somewhat bearable in our case and they're head & shoulders better to deal with than the various insurers that I had the misfortune to inherit through work in the past. I wouldn't give you a bucket of warm spit for most of them, especially Blue Cross, who ought to just be taken out & shot one joint at a time if they give everyone as much headache as they gave us. |
More Fox News/Rasmussen state polls...
OH: McCain 48-47 FL: Obama 52-45 VA: Obama 50-48 CO: Obama 51-45 MO: Obama 50-47 McCain can't afford to lose any of these states. |
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The best argument, in my opinion, for Single-Payer Health Care is that it'll free up businesses to not have to worry about administering or paying for it anymore. Quote:
Couldn't happen to a more deserving slimebag. Quote:
You're thinking about it the wrong way. Companies aren't going to drop health coverage overnight. They will (and indeed many already do) slowly lower the amount of premium they're paying into the plan, and choose less costly (and less comprehensive) health plans. |
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Heh. Still touchy because he took out his sorry excuse for a predecessor? |
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Not that he took him out, but the way in which he took him out. I would hope that even you would agree that attacking the patriotism of a triple-amputee veteran should be beyond the pale. |
Hope dies hard.
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This isn't the 1930s mob where Microsoft, Walmart, IBM, Ford, McDonalds and Pepsi are all going to sit in a back room and conspire to all drop health coverage together. The first company to significantly reduce (and/or drop) coverage will be: A. Plastered all over 60 minutes/media B. Face a mass exodus on all their talented skilled labor/workforce Given it would take around 400-500 companies to take the risk for A and B and I think that's not very likely anytime soon. Much more likely would be some "government sponsored" safety net plan to help offset the costs of cancer/life-saving drugs/catastrophic issues and thereby cut down the cost for businesses. But, I think it's a bit "boogeymanish" to think that we're going to have a bunch of businesses raising copays/premiums to huge amounts after either plan is enacted. When you take into account how neutered either plan would need to be to get through congress, chances are it will only impact self-employee/uninsured at this point (which isn't a bad thing). |
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Not one bit. His actions after getting himself blown the fuck up infinitely outweighed any claim to patriotism he may have ever possessed. Or would you still paint Benedict Arnold as a "patriot" simply because he once served the right side? |
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The scenario you paint was also the sentiment when companies started doing mass layoffs in the 70s, which was something that had never been done on a large scale before by companies that weren't shutting down. Sure the first few big companies to do it took a huge PR hit, but eventually it became an accepted way of cutting costs. I can easily see dropping health care following a similar path. |
Heh. I knew whatever Jon came up with would be pretty amusing. I'm certainly surprised anyone thought he would answer differently. I would've been shocked if he had.
Oh, and Saxby Chambliss is a racist, vile piece of putrid shit and I hope Georgia voters wise up and kick his ass all the way from Atlanta through Savannah and into the Atlantic ocean so the slimy, traitorous scumbag can float away and never be heard from again. Just in case anyone was wondering. |
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You don't like him then :eek: |
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This should be the next Bruce Willis movie. |
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This doomsday of a large portion of our workforce going with no healthcare outside of a "cobra-esque" crappy plan is lunacy. I don't see companies dropping healthcare anytime soon and if it does ever happen, there will be an affordable industry (hopefully not the government) waiting with open arms for the people no longer under employer health care. Again, of all things to worry about in the next few years, losing affordable health coverage should rank slightly above the fear of meteor strikes. Now, if you want to talk about better ways to cover small business and the millions of kids without health insurance, we can have a good discussion with some things that should be done. Still, employer health care isn't going anywhere until it can be outsourced to a similar cost/benefit private provider. And I don't see that happening anytime soon. |
Arles: You're leaving out a critical part of the equation. If employers can't deduct health costs suddenly their tax burden is greatly increased. A lot of companies would continue to offer health care, but a lot couldn't afford to.
McCain's whole plan is based on the idea that many Americans, particularly young workers, have too much healthcare. He's trying to create a plan where people overall have less coverage. |
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Reason #47 people are under the impression that southerners are an unintelligent and intolerant (yes, I've seen your sig). FWIW, the reason he called him unpatriotic was because of a way he voted on a UN inspection issue, which Chambliss's party leader (Bill Frist) voted the same way. He won his campaign on nothing else other than smearing a person who gave up a lot to defend his country. He's a disgusting slimebag of a person and the only reason he's in office is probably because he got a bunch of rednecks all fired up about "American values" and the state flag. He's done absolutely nothing except listen to Rove. Since he's been in the house (since 1995), he's sponsered about 110 bills, 100 that have never made it out of committee. Though he was a sponsor of Res. 308, a resolution to congratulate the little league team from Warner Robbins. Reading his list of sponsored bills is like reading Mad magazine, but hey, they took yer flags. Maybe we can get rid of Purdue as well, who's idea of creating solutions to problems is holding mass prayers on the capitol steps. Maybe that's why we still have no gas around here, he needs to hold another prayer service for shipments. |
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I'm thinking that this wasn't the best move in regards to your argument. There's not a congressman who hasn't sponsored one of these do-nothing bills/resolutions during their time in Congress. |
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When that is one of the only things you've sponsored that has made it out of committee, it absolutely helps his argument. |
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Absolutely it is. It is one of the few to make it out committee. If you read his sponsored legislation, most of it is crap. He's a racist, do-nothing scumbag that made it to office because he had the help of Rove and took advantage of a turning sentiment in Georgia that Sonny "they took yer flag" Purdue helped initiate. I'd be shocked if Jon (without help of the interwebs) could tell me why Cleland is so unpatriotic and bad for Georgia, whereas Chambliss is so great (though I suspect he doesn't really hold Chambliss in high regard). |
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I'd bet he could. The D next to Cleland's name is probably good enough for Jon. |
It's funny that people still don't know what to expect with Jon.
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Well, I do have a different definition of "treason" than you do. |
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That's my whole point. There's plenty to point out on the negative side of his legislation. |
Someone needs to tell Barney Frank to put a cork in it. The Dems have to be really careful about overplaying the race card, especially in a situation where he was so wrong.............
Frank says GOP housing attacks racially motivated Quote:
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Okay, who else thought he was talking about McCain here? |
Although it's obviously politically motivated, I do like the precedent that this sets. Any move that people can make to get more citizens to vote or get young people into the habit early on is a good idea IMO.
Can Falwell's University Tip Virginia To McCain? : NPR |
Obama's people have been all over Ohio trying to get college students to register and vote at the same time during the late registration/early voting period over the last couple of weeks. I think yesterday was the last day of the register/vote-at-the-same-time combo. I guess time will tell how effective any of these pushes are. Although, cancelling classes seems unnecessary and over-the-top.
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I guess my point had less to do with the registrations and more to do with the idea that colleges and work locations should give people more options to vote. |
I think it'd be pretty funny to see how someone like Bill O' Reilly would react if a school with Democratic ties, say University of Miami, canceled classes on election day.
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It would be better to move the vote to the weekend, but that presents its own unique set of logistical difficulties. |
I don't think that it would hurt once every four years to make that day a holiday. You could even take away one of the other Federal holidays to make up for it. Columbus day maybe.
Of course, people would be pissed to lose a three day weekend once every four years in order to get that Tuesday off. And people might even try turning it into a four day weekend--though November isn't really the best time to be four day weekending. Anyway, it might or might not help to make that a holiday. I like the symbolism of it--but I do wonder if it will get anyone else out to vote vs. the way it is now. |
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I actually agree. I think election day in the country should be a holiday. |
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That's the other side of it. Even if given the opportunity, I don't know how many of Liberty University's kids will actually bother to vote that wouldn't have voted before. Perfect example was all the fuss about the Ohio 'same-day registration and voting'. There was a big fuss by Republicans about the possibility of voter fraud and the Democrats were trying to organize a huge effort to register a bunch of new voters (they said they would fill bus after bus with people and register them to vote). When the final tally was taken, it looks like no more than several hundred people registered and even less voted. All that effort provided very few additional voters. |
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Probably a good call. Leave race-baiting to the likes of Sarah Palin. |
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I think the truth is somewhere between the Obama campaign's wish of tens of thousands and "several hundred". |
So, the 2nd debate is tonight. Given the utter sterilization of the format, is there anything either candidate can do in the debate to move voters? Are there more numbers for Obama to move his way, or is he at his peak with nowhere to go but down? Can McCain show his softer side and get the middle class to believe he is on their side?
In my opinion, McCain needs to come out and not look angry. I saw tape of him last night just essentially berating America for not looking at Obama's character more closely... and it did not look good. He looked angry and frustrated. That will not play well if he plays up that side tonight. |
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The key thing now is that Obama is above 50% in most national polls and also in most of the battleground state polls. McCain is going to have to move those people. The undecideds won't do it for him. However, his negativity in the previous debate played pretty poorly, so he's got to be careful not to lose some of his own independents in the process.
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Blaah, pre-screened questions with no possibility of followup by the questioner or Brokaw.
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I think making election day a federal holiday would kill turnout.
I for one would never vote again (expect possibly by absentee ballot). You have 13-hours to vote for god's sake. If there's a problem with lines, the answer is more widespread electronic voting technology. Or more states could vote-by-mail like they do in Oregon. |
From the Liberty U. story:
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So, I guess she doesn't watch the polls too carefully, eh? Even better than that is that the whole page when I got it is brought to you by the new movie "Milk". Awesome. |
LOL at people who think their vote "counts more" in a close state than a state who's outcome is more sure.
Nobody individually is going to be the deciding voter in any state. Vote what you believe no matter where you are. |
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No, they actually released the numbers earlier this week. The number that actually registered and voted was less than 1,000 statewide. I'll try to track down the stats and link them if I can. |
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While I understand that North Carolina is currently a toss up state according to some polling data, I'd be pretty shocked if it actually did land in the Democrat column on election day. The demographics in that state are decidedly against Obama. |
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Brokaw has said that he didn't agree to that. And he kind of holds the cards there. If he does ask a followup, then the candidate will have to answer it. A candidate would lose major points for saying "you are not allowed follow-up questions." I do, however, agree that this will be a sterile debate overall. They are legislating where the candidates can walk on the stage for goodness sake. |
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I'd be surprised too, but better safe than sorry, right? Seems a bit naive and presumptive in any case. I wouldn't change my registration place if I were for Obama either. All states give you the chance to cast an absentee ballot... just get one of those and vote in your home state. |
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I thought the AP story I read was 4-5,000. But I didn't feel like linking to it, because that involves work. |
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Living here, I agree with you. While I live in the Triangle, it is but a dot of blue in an ocean of red. NASCAR was started here for goodness sake. However, I think that the events of the last week might actually make things close. Charlotte is the second largest banking center in the country (behind NYC). And Wachovia was kind of the flagship bank of the state. Banking is the business in Charlotte--it's where Wall Street actually meets Main Street. If McCain cannot shake the image that he is more responsible for the banking crisis than Obama is, it could sink him here. Of course, if McCain cannot turn the banking crisis meme around, he's lost anyway, so it might not be that NC is sure to go red so much as NC is not the state that will tip the balance for Obama. |
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I don't get your first two conclusions. Sure, I'd love to see more actual voting machines in use (which would drastically reduce my wait), but I'd love to hear how it would kill turn out and why you'd never vote again. |
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I would definitely make a four-day weekend out of it and be out of town. |
Solution: Polling booths at the airport.
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That wouldn't work in Vegas. Senior citizens would end up sitting in front of a slot machine pulling the slot arm thinking they were at a voting machine. |
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Yeah, but it also depends on where the candidates spend their resources. Obama is making a major push in NC. Right now, the electoral map does not look good for McCain. He's going to have to push hard in Ohio, Colorado, and Virginia and may not have the luxury of defending North Carolina as vigorously as he wants. I could see a scenario where McCain fights so hard in Virginia that he takes it, but ends up losing NC at the same time. |
Looks like PA may be out of McCain's reach now. New SurveyUSA Poll puts the gap at 15 points.
SurveyUSA Election Poll #14507 Obama 55-40 McCain Mason-Dixon poll in Florida keeps the Obama lead within the margin of error at 2 points: http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/msnbc/se...ason-Dixon.pdf And Minnesota has gone from an average of 4 points ahead (pre bailout signing/pre VP Debate) to 10.5 points ahead in the RCP Average... A new poll from the Minnesota Public Radio/University of MN - Humphrey Institute puts the gap at 14 points (54-40) http://www.hhh.umn.edu/centers/cspg/..._President.pdf That narrows McCain's path to victory (he absolutely has to have Florida, no matter what, but that's within the margin of error) It's 3rd and 31 deep in their own end, McCain can't win the election tonight, he CAN lose it by throwing a pick (he's one gaffe away from being pretty much out of it), but he can set up a more makeable fourth down (the final debate) if he makes the play here. (Enough football references?) |
I thinkt he most apt football metaphor is that McCain is losing the field position battle. The battleground right now is being fought on McCain's side of the field (red states). McCain is either losing or close in FL, OH, NC, VA, CO, IN, MO, and NV. He can't afford to lose any of these states.
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That's a big deal--the number of states that McCain has to defend. Let's give Obama Kerry + Iowa + New Mexico. Then let's say that McCain is a 90% favorite in all of the states that you mention (probably a bit generous b/c Obama is leading in most of them). McCain still has a < 50% chance of winning all of those states (90%^8).
McCain needs to shrink the map. |
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I didn't say major. I said small to medium (which are already dropping/reducing health plans. This will just increase it). |
dola:
I also wonder about the McCain campaign's lack of message discipline. Go negative, fine. Pull out of Michigan, fine. But telling people that you are going negative in order to change the subject? And announcing that you are pulling out of Michigan? Why do those things? It just makes your moves seem more calculated. McCain can still win this, but I feel like we are watching a team down in the 4th quarter and you look at the bench and all of the players are just sitting there and not looking at each other and the coach has gone into Art Shell mode. It does not feel like you are watching the QB go up and down the bench talking to the O-Line to keep them pumped up. Basically, I wonder if there is more turmoil behind the scenes than we are seeing (as turned out to be the case in Clinton's campaign). |
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I have had the exact opposite experience. I have a feeling the reason was I can't afford the level of insurance that you most likely can. I found it near impossible to even find a company that will insure me (boarder-line diabetic), and the ones who would wanted about $1000 a month. Before the diabetes and when I was younger, I had private insurance with a very highly thought of company. My wife got pregnant with my first child, they tried to drop us. My agent fought to keep us covered, and then they tried to deny claims. In the end, they paid way less than they should, we paid way more, and the hospital just wrote off a good bit of it. |
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No one watching the debate?
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sweet bingo!!
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Still time to get a beer :)
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You'd think they would get better chairs.
McCain looked pretty stiff when he walked out. Not that it matters. Party has started. Even though this format is cardboard, it's still more interesting than watching some moderator asking questions. |
Obama wants to do everything short of bringing back the WPA.
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Government bailout of home mortgage debt. Big gub'ment GOP ftl.
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Seems tonight, Obama wants to contrast the differences unlike the last debate where he kept saying "I agree with Senator McCain" over and over again. But it seems to me like he's almost too defensive and acting like he's on the stump.
McCain looks nervous, but is coming off far more natural so far. |
I do like that McCain is being more specific then Obama
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Look at the smile on Obam'as face as McCain speaks.
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Come again? |
Yup.. McCain goes sharply negative on the Freddie/Fannie.. blaming Obama's "Cronies".. not sure that'll work.. Obama's been in the Senate.. two years? How many years have McCain been in there?
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Fixed it, sorry. |
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No prob...just busting your stones. :p |
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That's ok. :) You probably won't get me for the full debate this time, I get to go home soon :) |
McCain's new mortgage buying plan sounds like Hillary's gas tax holiday.
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wow - that theresa finch lady could barely read her own question. and it wasn't even difficult
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McCain can't do the "I feel your pain" thing. Throwing jabs that don't address the question are not a knock out blow, either.
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Ah... McCain says you can trust him because he trashes his own party often, and Obama can't be trusted because he never repudiates his own party... wait.. what???
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McCain's getting micro-economics again
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Wow. If this is McCain strength....
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Man, McCain looks really old sometimes..he always looks old though.
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Is there some reason that the cameras keep showing Obama from behind?
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Obama started slow and awkward, but seems to be warming up a bit.
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He's walking into the future :) |
Ooooo.. Obama struck a good shot there, by suggesting we get rid of the $4 billion in tax breaks for the Oil Companies.
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Q: What sacrifices will you ask of the American people?
McCain: I will cut earmarks and rein in goivernment spending. Nice :) |
McCain doesn't look strong so far. I'm guessing FOX News will prove me wrong. But...I just think he's just rehashing talking points, spending too much time on details that won't resonate with people.
With the occasional jab at Barry. Maybe it'll be like the last debate when he gets stronger halfway through. "We're not rifle shots here. We're Americans!" |
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LOL :) |
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And Obama goes with energy independence, while reminding Americans of George Bush's admonition that everyone go shopping following 9/11. Point: Obama. |
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He's one pen short of a Bob Dole impression. |
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I have a feeling that if that happens...we'll be the ones paying the price at the pump. |
McCain goes with the "jello to the wall" jab. That was effective maybe the first twenty times I ever heard it used.
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