Unequal numbers is a major premise behind why the Saviors have been successful. 6 v 6 in a parking lot isn't equal numbers in the big picture. Rick & Co. learned that lesson a rather hard way.


I've assumed that's a cost concession honestly. Plus the source material has things (once again) in a place where there's a LOT of people that are part of the story. It really isn't just about the main merry band right now, again, that's part of the point.

There's no shortage of things to be annoyed about with the show in the past year, but I don't think the numbers stuff is necessarily one of them. {shrug}

Problem here is though, by your own words the 'MAIN merry band', is lacking story time.

Ignoring the source material (comics) and all of the characters possibly in it, the TV show has at its core been about the main merry band of Rick and his crew. They are the 'good guys'/'heroes'/protagonists of the story.

I am all about hitting up side stories and characters. It is good for the world development and story, but when I am sitting here trying to think of the last time Carl, Maggie etc. have actively been involved in the show in this half of the season, that is a problem. They are supposed to be MAIN characters.

Good, hit up side stories all you want for half an hour, but give me some of the main cast as well. Don't do an episode dedicated to Eugene one week and we don't see him again until the season finale. They do this shit all the time and it gets annoying.

Too many characters is not always a good thing, especially when you lose focus of the main merry band.

I think that's just part & parcel of condensing a rather complicated story with a lot of elements involved into a TV format.

Plus -- and perhaps more influentially -- using relatively few characters in an episode holds down production costs, at least depending upon how their "per episode" deals are structured.

I definitely think Mo is being too harsh here.

That said, I think hollmt has a point, even if I understand the realistic decision to cut down on costs. GOT has as many if not more disparate scenes and characters, but it is rare that a main character in the series will go an entire episode without being seen in at least one scene. They are okay playing out a story arc across several episodes, rather than condensing it into one episode and letting the others rot away for weeks.

But it's not the first time TWD producers have made some bad decisions with the show, so this really shouldn't shock.

Back to this specific episode, while it wasn't as balls to the wall as I hoped it would be, if indeed the end result is that The Kingdom is finally about to enter this war, than I guess I am happy enough.

It was also highly telegraphed. They spent so much time on that boy in the first 5 minutes, you knew he was getting it somewhere. It's become fairly predictable and downright stupid in some areas. Of course I still watch it, but they sit on my DVR for a few days until I feel like it, unlike GoT where I make the time to watch it Sunday night.

Ahh, to each his own. I just hate the direction of the show. It just doesn't seem like the same show. Somewhere, it went from something different on tv to just absurd. I don't watch a lot of tv and it was one of the few I could tolerate because at least it was different.

Like Jon says it is from a comic book. I have never read the comic book, but I guess at first it didn't seem like it was from a comic book and now it is definitely out there like a comic book. I feel like I'm on mystery science theater 3000 as one goofy B movie thing after another unfolds. Cue Carol yanking a street sign from it's moorings and sitting in a tree and stabbing zombies in their apparently jelly like heads with the sharp end of the sign. Do they not have skulls anymore? How did she climb the tree with a road sign...with zombies after her? Just goofy.

Anyway, not trying to ruin the show for anyone, just observations. I'm pretty sure the creators don't care what I think for sure. I'll quit commenting on it and have my own series finale in a few weeks. :)

Weakest, dullest, least interesting episode in TWD history.

Yeah, that was a snoozer episode. Hopefully a nice payoff is coming in the next two episodes.

Yeah, I watched it and still can't really remember if anything actually happened. Well, I know what happened. They're setting the table for some characters to leave the show is what they're doing. But the overall value of the episode was pretty low.

The problem, I think, there is exacerbated by the fact that several of those who are now primed to be leaving aren't people that most viewers give two shits about anyway.

And that's at best. Hell, I've actively rooted for somebody to knock off Rosita for several weeks now, and haven't given two shits about Sasha at any point.
(Granted those aren't the only obvious candidates, but both are at least prime)

An entire episode focused largely on two of the show's least interesting characters was NOT a great plan IMO.

Yeah if you plan on half the episode devoted to her at least put Rosita in the outfits she wore when they first met the group. I couldn't understand what she was saying in the warehouse scene with Sasha but cared so little that I didn't even bother to rewind. Assume she is a scorned lover or something.

Basically that she slept around quite a bit while learning one survival craft from one person, another survival craft from another person, etc etc. "The sex was just for fun though"

I actually enjoyed the interplay between Sasha and Rosita, and also got a lot out of the Daryl-Maggie scenes and the Gregory-Jesus-Simon stuff. Plus, the Eugene thing at the end. Toss that all in with the likelihood we witnessed the kickoff of the coming war vs the Saviors, I would say that episode got more accomplished than seems apparent.

All that said, yea, if you want more action than dialogue, it wasn't the most ideal episode.

Probably they needed to save money to spend on the splashy final two episodes of the season.

IMO, stopped tonight at pretty much the right spot.

It was an okay finale. Didn't like the doublecross and how they were saved seemed too convenient. But it sets it up more war and gore next season.

Overall, the Negan arc has been below expectation for me. Too much, too little, the balance and many of episodes seem off. It may be me, but I prefer the pre-Negan days.

I thought it was solid. My wife and I saw all three "swerves" coming but I thought they were done well enough that it was still entertaining. As somebody said back on page 2 or 3 of this thread we are watching a show about a zombie apocalypse so questioning how the tiger would know who is a good guy and a bad guy is putting a little too much thought into it. If that sort of stuff bothers you I understand but am unsure how you made it to season 6 or whatever season we are on.

Wasn't the tiger per se. It was the exact timing of it.

I get it. The same thing with the French group all pulling their guns at once. I mean what exactly was different with Rick's group all shooting the French group with no casualties taken later on then all putting their hands up at the beginning? Kind of dumb leaps of logic that I have come to expect from the show. A good example of a similar show would be Sons of Anarchy with the machine gun battles on the bikes where nobody crashes or dies. Kind of just accepted both as male soap opera mindless entertainment.

Wait? They're FRENCH? Is that what that's supposed to be?

I've been sticking with some Star Trek explanation so far.

It's probably not just you but I'm mostly in the boat with my son's observation after last night's episode: Negan at this point is one of 3-5 most likable characters left. One of a dwindling number that is consistently interesting on screen as well.

Where I see the show really struggling to hold on to its audience will be the gap between the current "big bad" and the next "big bad".

I don't know what they are supposed to be but they all seem to speak broken English with an accent. The main lady seemed French to me but this is just my guess not something from the comic books or ever said in the show.

Yeah I still find him entertaining as well. They are shooting 4-5 machine guns at his car and he is just flicking them off driving out of town. He is a fun villain.

You know what hasn't gotten enough love, even from me so far?
Ezekiel's proclamation when they arrived for the rescue.

That was spot on perfect for his character IMO.

I'm hopeful that Negan will improve greatly now that they are at war. There will be a lot less stupid menacing and dips of hips and nonsensical approaches to problems and a lot more actual menace. He's a great actor and Negan, the character, has shined in moments, but largely he's been albatross around the neck of the show. Started off strong and then just kept doing the same shtick over and over, it became tiresome, dull, and repetitive. He's capable of so much more. I hope he gets a chance during "The War".

I was talking to a friend of mine last night after the show. I think the presence of a "big bad" is actually not a great thing for the show. I think some of the best episodes of the show were when there was no "big bad". They don't need one. Some of the Governor and Negan conflict-focused episodes have been among the worst.


They're not in the comics. They are only in the show. Their manner of speaking makes no sense. I don't think their French. In really strains any kind of reality where an entire society speaks like that after only 2-3 years of post-apocalyptic life. 10 years? 20 years? More? Sure. Language could change and weird dialects and words would evolve, but it's only been a few years. It's weird.

Other thoughts about last night:

With all the sound and fury, not much really happened. Sasha finally died. I liked how they did that. It was a good tribute to the character. It would have been nice if Zombie Sasha had killed someone important, but she didn't. She just gave everyone an opportunity to win initiative and get the jump on the Up Up Ups. But other than Sasha dying and the Up Up Ups being revealed as the stupid-talking traitors they are, not much else really happened. I guess the three communities finally got together and the Saviors finally learned that everyone else was planning to go to War, but other than some pieces getting shuffled about not too much else happened. Most of the characters are right back to where they were a season or so ago.

The gun fight was confusing as hell. It was really hard to keep track of where everyone was and there were a lot of really weird decisions being made by the Enemy AI. They definitely need a patch or something, because their AI is broke.

Unless the leader of the Up Up Ups had some deal with Negan that she couldn't kill Rick, only he could, I am not sure why she didn't just shoot him in the head. I am sure they had that arrangement. Negan is like that.

Shiva is a very well-trained tiger.

The whole timing of the Hilltop and Kingdom people was very deus ex machia. It was a little too perfect.

Without getting too much into the source material, a lot of things were (finally) taken pretty much from that, best I can tell from my reading up.

The comic character equivlanet arc they essentially gave Sasha did have her making a surprise kill in the comic ... but that character is already dead on TV, so they had to do something different.

Kingdom arrival timing being fortuitous there as well, classic nick-of-time stuff as I understand it.

French? Up Up.Ups?

Jeez, people, if we're just giving out weird names, can we settle on one?

I'm with Jon. I'll call them Trekkes.

I think they are technically called "The Scavangers." I prefer the Up Up Ups, because it reminds me of the "Yeah Yeah Yeahs", which I like, and also highlights their dumb manner of speaking. #teamupupups

They are lame. They deserve to die. And I hope they burn in hell. #atimetokill

Talking Dead references were either "garbage people" or "trash people".

The March to War and All-Out War are excellent in the Comics. IMO, Neegan is just as much of a likeable character as any of the protagonists. I do wish they could allow Neegan to be Neegan as part of his niche in the comics is the way he uses the F word. He'd make George Carlin proud.

I really think season 8 has the potential to be one of the best in the series if they follow the comics.

I've really come to see this show differently this year. Up until now, I've looked at it as a real life adaptation of how people might react and deal with a zombie apocalypse, using the comic book as material to work with. Now, however, I'm really seeing this as a live action, comic book. The characters and action are much more like what I'd expect in a comic book world rather than in any kind of gritty, real world situation.

It doesn't really change my expectations for the show, it's just a different lens to look at it through.

With Game of Thrones over for now, at least we have the Walking Dead to look forward to.

Are you ready? Just two more weeks.

Negan has been my favorite character and got me back into the show after skipping out for a while. The only thing I liked more than him:

It still stupid and not sure their reasoning is good enough but here's the answer on why ...

We Finally Know Why The Scavengers Speak So Strangely On 'Walking Dead' | HuffPost

I'm ready for this Negan arc to be over.

I would like several episodes of "rebuilding" -- mostly peace, crop growing, supply runs, interesting flashbacks, love interests, settlement interactions etc. and massive zombie hordes. I'm tired of Governors & Negans for a while.

We're pretty much opposites then.

That said, honestly, I'm kinda ready for them to put the show in the barn for good. I'm not looking forward to what I expect to happen in this half-season, life is dramatic enough without going overboard on emotional departures.

I'm obviously up for more Negan. Seems like one of the most honest characters on the show. Someone so manipulative and psychotic would be exactly who I think would emerge out of the initial chaos and uncertainty of the beginning of a zombie apocalypse. By the time people start getting their wits about them he would have a pretty sizable, organized army together and slowly but surely continue building his insane little empire.

I haven't read the comics, but I'm hoping this is a brutal season with the loss of several key characters that sends the show into the final arc or two before it finally ends.

New season premiere and no pop?

A solid start, if unspectacular, to start the season. I think we could, especially as strategy buffs, nitpick pretty hard, but as a show, it's alright.

Didn't really feel pop-worthy honestly, in significant part due to just what you mentioned.

I think we've seen the pinnacle with the show frankly, and there's not much left except the slow steady decline. There's enough investment with the show/story/cast that the numbers will be good enough for another season or two, but just as I said at the time, I really don't think the show ever recovers from what it lost with the nature of the Negan/Glenn scene.

Didn't think it was that great of an episode, it was just okay. That wouldn't be my opening shot to Negan, driving a small caravan into his territory just didn't seem right (and where were Negan's men?).

Looking forward to the season though.

So they pulled their crew up right to Negan's gate, and just shot at a bunch of windows, using up a ton of their ammo? I guess bringing the herd was the end goal of this attack, but it felt pretty weak.

Also, Negan was in the open for how long, and no one shot at him. Apparently their goal is to kill Negan and not mass slaughter the entire Saviors group, so why didn't they take a shot?

To me, it felt like a poorly written WWE episode where the end goal is the only thing that matters, and how they get there is irrelevant.

Agree with all of this. Vince Russo wrote this episode without supervision.

Just watched it last night and it was meh. Last season ends with Negan speaking to a mini-army, yet Rick and team just stroll into town after killing off 5 lookout positions and meet a total of 6 individuals at the encampment.

Also, Negan's ploy to use force the Hillsiders to give up the fight seemed half witted as well from what we have seen of his strategic moves in the past.

{whispers} It worked considerably better in the source material {/whisper}

Fan service scene. They did the windows just like in the comic ... except THERE it came after a perfectly good reason.

TV just threw it in there cause they knew a portion of the fans would recognize the scene & expect it.

I thought the episode was better than most of the episodes from last year. A lot of what happened felt right, until they got to the Savior's base.

The whole showdown with Negan just felt tired and something I feel like we've seen a bunch of times before. They went in there with the singular purpose to kill him. They had at least a dozen, possibly more, people with guns trained on him (and five others) and no one is killed? I know it's a show, but that kind of plot armor strains things. I did like the fact that Rick started shooting at "7" though.

I have read most of the comics. Well past where they are in the show and I don't remember the window shooting part. Then again, I have a hard time retaining a lot of what happens in the comics. I buy them as trade paperbacks, which, I think, collects six issues. I can read the whole thing in about 20 minutes because there is so little dialogue for the most part. As a result, I tend to whip through them without retaining too much.

The description of it I read had it showing both sides if you will. Negan snipers fire, good guys shoot up the building in response, Negan figures out that they're basically firing blindly.

Last night's episode was boring.

Why was Rick and Darryl wandering about the hallways by themselves?

How can we have a character named Jesus, and a group named the Saviors and them not be together? It's gotta be a set up to a plot twist. Jesus totally needs to play for the Saviors.

That was tedious. Do we really have conflict within every pairing that is supposedly working together against Negan?