By all accounts Trump picked the guy he thought would best appeal to young men. Initially Vance was easily the most disliked VP nominee ever.

Your double standard is obvious. By your own standard, Harris' debate performance against Trump and Pence demonstrated she was qualified.

Kamala Harris seen as winner in post-debate CNN poll | CNN Politics

Trump is like a racist and misogynist variant of Stone Cold Steve Austin. Other people that have these beliefs can relate to him.

I was writing too quickly to be nuanced, but I meant "likeable in the traditional sense". It's like when people say he doesn't have charisma, but he absolutely does. Just because his charisma doesn't work on "you", doesn't mean he doesn't have it.


I had been looking for the right word, and "relatable" nails it, I think, for the reasons both you & RM lay out.

When he started out, people described Trump as a guy who was happy to say things that a large chunk of America was told they were not allowed to say. Or, alternatively, he's a walking, talking ID for a large chunk of America. Of course they're going to like that. That's populism. It works.

Kari Lake might actually win. The margin has narrowed significantly.

For whatever it's worth, on Wednesday at my daughter's high school, the male athletes--both black and white, but mostly black--were crowing, high-fiving one another, and telling any and everyone who'd listen that they would never, ever, ever vote for a woman, women shouldn't be able to vote, etc. etc. etc. It's a small demo, of course, but because of reclassing, a significant percentage of male upperclassmen high school athletes here were eligible to vote. (Many of the better basketball players in particular around here are playing at least part of their senior season at age 19.) Based on what my daughter reported--in a county that Harris won 60-38--it seemed like the young bro Andrew-Tate-influenced male vote went HEAVILY to Trump. I've seen "under 30" splits, but now I'd be quite curious to see the under 23ish (i.e. high school and college) male breakdown. Another anecdote: the former youth pastor at our church here was a YoungLife guy, working on the ground directly with a ton of adolescent males like I did, for 15-20 years. (He was part-time with YL and part-time with our church for his last few years officially with YL.) He told me in heavy lament 5ish years ago that he was losing the attention/involvement of males both in his outreach work with YL and in his youth group, mainly to porn, video games, and Andrew Tate. Yes, he specifically mentioned Tate right there with porn and gaming.

Still got that dad shotgun ready? (If that'll even do it these days?)

I'll tell ya, a big part of me was relieved when I heard the Younger Child wasn't interested in guys.

Looks like Garland is going to have to boot up that laptop and fire off another sternly worded letter.

I think a lot of the problems with young men are self-inflicted. I see a lot of guys not willing to work for anything and with no goal either short or long term. They don't have much of any ability to overcome obstacles.

So they put the blame on others and do little to change their circumstances.

You reach adulthood and realize you'll be paying off your student loans for the next 30 years, buying a home is nearly impossible, it's difficult to support a family with depressed wages, and the climate is hitting a point of no return that they'll have to deal with the consequences of. Meanwhile the people who gutted everything for themselves the past 40 years are calling you lazy.

I don't really know what to make of Tate and others. Teenagers are often drawn to that "edgy" kind of content. I think a lot of us grew up with shock jocks, vulgar comedians, and anti-establishment figures. It's kind of a prime demographic for that. I feel like most people will just grow out of it but who knows?

Feels like a generation that was largely abandoned and ignored and they'll turn their attention to anyone that acts like they care.

Obviously super stoked to see Americans shine in the election. I know the majority here are struggling with the result but you know what? It will be alright. The two-party system is alive and well.

Really good and damning interview.

https://www.nytimes.com/2024/11/08/u...interview.html

The guys who care about climate change aren't voting Trump. Only 40% of college aged men are in college. Most young men aren't worried about student loans.

Tate's a sex trafficker and rapist, so fuck that guy.

The obvious irony is, I can't imagine all that Andrew Tate rhetoric is making them more attractive to the girls.

It will be alright indeed. Between funny people who have told some they are going back to plantations. Kids taunting girls in school "your body, my choice" and this:


Totally alright.

I'm so fucking tired of people saying Dems need to be more accommodating to Trump while also allowing Trumpers to mock anyone they please.

Yeah man, I know, it sucks to lose, I get it, trust me. But nobody’s here to lose forever, which is my point, you’ll have your day again. You’ll be fine.

Who, outside of the wind-up right-wing punditry, is saying this?

My opinion of Nancy Pelosi just went down a lot, and it was already low to begin with

No, I said Trump picked the best person and it showed in the VP debate as evidence.

Harris’ performance was good in her debate, but it was not indicative of her being qualified. She was qualified on the basis of being a woman. Do you disagree that if she were a man, she wouldn’t be VP?

Biden really is a piece of shit. Losing by 400 electoral points in their internal polling after the debate.

“Joe Biden’s decision to run for president again was a catastrophic mistake.” - @JonFavs
Listen to more Pod Save America wherever you get your podcasts. pic.twitter.com/nhtO9hs4aA

— Pod Save America (@PodSaveAmerica) November 8, 2024

MAGA, pundits, some anonymous Dems.

Personally I think it's time for Dems to let MAGA get what they voted for. Rural voters on a GOP budget will feel a lot of pain, and Dems shouldn't ride to the rescue of farmers and rural schools/hospitals, etc. At least not before 2028 when they can offer a platform in response to Trumpism.

As they say, scratch a liberal and a fascist bleeds.

My team lost so kids should go hungry to collectively punish people who may or may not have even voted for Trump. Just sociopathic shit.

MAGA, including apparently you, should get what they voted for.

But keep up the fight for things like farm subsidies and private school vouchers.

No. Do you think Vance would have been selected if he were a woman?

I think you can understand the coping mechanism at play here. And besides, it's only happening when liberals are powerless to do anything about it anyway, so it's not like it's talk of actually doing it. It's a (very extremely) grudging acceptance.

I think there's a pretty big difference between what I'm saying and what you are. Losing, and being threats to your life, bodily freedom, and visions of slavery dancing in some peoples heads isn't really on the same playing field. Just keep minimizing all that because you don't feel like it's 'real' then. I'll be fine. I'm a middle class, straight, white guy. I'm not likely to get raped, and forced to carry a baby, or die during a miscarriage. I'll be just fine.

bullshit. The side that was trying to get a platform of support and protection for marginalized people, including farm subsidies, and the general social network lost. That side is no longer in power. The side that won WILL do things differently. If the side that takes power succeeds, it will be what the people voted for. The people have a right to get what they voted for, right? Keep up that moral crusade though. Maybe you can call out some ethnic cleansing here in the states before too long. Maybe you can blame that on the Dems too?

Trump announced one of the first thing he is going to do is sign an executive order ending birthright citizenship. Yes, he means retroactively. How does that "just illegals" sound now?

I mean like you said, kind of tough to sell the "we're here to protect marginalized communities" when you're actively ethnically cleansing a group of people halfway around the world. Comes across like hypocrites who don't actually believe what they say. Like how quickly you shift to "I hope the kids starve" after losing.

Maybe you lost because people saw through that facade.

When even Bill fucking Kristol is telling you that you're too right wing.

Lmao I missed this, they had BILL KRISTOL telling her to pivot to left populism and they kept handing Liz Cheney the mic! https://t.co/duuRTDWj3Y pic.twitter.com/cXmIGSAVDF

— ça ira glass (@PercyYaBysshe) November 8, 2024

I can't see that holding up in even this court

Not at all. Many demographics voted heavily for policies that will hurt them badly and will benefit a bunch of us, who voted against those policies immensely. I am so happy for them that they're going to get what they voted for. Why can't you be happy for them as well?

I don't think people should be collectively punished for what 23% of the population voted for.

Well the good news is there will be plenty of jobs available in agriculture and food service for Mom and Dad to pick up a second gig to help pay the ballooning grocery bills due to tariffs. Even better news if you can teach Jr. to use a hammer they can pick up a roofing gig. they don't need no schooling.

Well, go and change the electoral system, then.

Keep up those useless arguments. Please tell me more things I supported that cost the democrats the election! I didn't remember saying anything about hoping kids starve, but since you said it, surely I must have. Glad you found a way to get your favorite catch phrase in there though too. Good job.

I mean if you go far enough back none of us white folks are citizens.

I too would be upset and lash out if I spent the past year being wrong and had to watch the party I unconditionally support eat shit in historic fashion.

Ending it would instantly move him into the top 3-5 Presidents in U.S. history. And give him a shot at the GOAT conversation.

With all due respect, I'm amazed at how low your standards are and how simple your requirements are.

Balance the budget? Fix the debt? Decrease unemployment and homelessness? Make a dent in the mass extinction crisis? Stop the wildfires?

Nah, just reverse that post-Civil War amendment and instantly become one of the best Presidents of all-time.

And for what? Literally nothing, just to punish people you will never know, in a way that will benefit your life not at all.

Really wild, but that just goes to show how different folks' priorities are, I guess.

My ancestors have been here longer than the USA has been a country, and I know they never filed any immigration papers, so the whole thing is bewildering. Within the tide of history, where the only constant is migration, and this continent has been steadily gaining population from the rest of the world since time immemorial, who really cares?

To be fair, top 3-5 is a relatively low bar afaic.

Recency bias plays a role too I imagine. The past 100 years ain't exactly been stellar.

I'd rather live in the US now than 100 years ago. If because only because of prohibition

Almost nobody would actually take 100 years ago over today if you really gave them a choice and they fully understood it. The differences in available technology, in convenience, in medical advances ... I'd be dead already if I lived 100 years ago and so would many others.

People get rose-colored glasses and don't fully apprehend how much progress has been made in how many areas, and what 'going back to a simpler time' or whatever would really involve giving up.

The GOP absolutely wants to roll the clock back to when white men had all the power. They want to bring back things like no fault divorce, rolling back Roe, attacks on education, etc..

It amazes me any woman or person of color could vote for them.

The horrific attacks are already starting with that text message about plantations and people like Nick Fuentes screaming "your body my choice"

We are in for a dark period

In complete seriousness, was it not clear that I was talking about presidencies of the past hundred years?

I mean, it's not like there wasn't context aplenty there.

Or at least I thought there was.

As the saying goes, we understand what we want to understand. :popcorn:

Stupid (but honest) question - if you don't determine citizenship based on birth, how do you determine it?

Dude, you talk more shit and know so little about me, even after 20+ years here. You listen so little you think you have it all solved. You run around here like Chicken Fucking Little year after year. That one time you can act like your right about something you shit all over everyone just to boost your own ego. Rinse and repeat.

I'm only lashing out at your incredible asshattery.

Wanted to know how the House race is going.

Per NPR at late morning today ...

Here are the House races that haven't been called yet : NPR
Doesn't sound like the Dems will net +4, so all GOP for next 2 years.

OK. So why have you been lashing out for the past 4 years?


I feel you're missing the point of the modern GOP. They want to return white men* (and women, to a lesser extent) to the position of strength they held 100-200 years ago, but with all the modern conveniences. And it looks like they'll do it.

As an middle/upper class white man I guess I should be looking forward to it, since my attempts to vote my conscience against my benefits has been so handily rebuffed by those who would be assisted by those benefits.

*mainly white men of means, but a rising tide raises all (white) boats.

I don't agree. I think there are elements of truth here, but it's far overstated. It's also a conversation that's been had many times on this board, and not one that is beneficial for me to dive into again.

I would imagine the citizenship status of the parents.

Birthright citizenship is protected by the 14th Amendment, as such:


I would imagine the primary goal here is to make it so a child born in the United States to two (or even one) undocumented parents is not automatically a US citizen (i.e. "anchor baby").

It's not unheard of, many European countries require one of the parents to be a citizen: Jus soli - Wikipedia

I'd like to see how they'll get enough states to repeal the amendment, although if they did, it would also get rid of that pesky "can't run for federal office if convicted of insurrection" clause in the same Amendment.

Because it's insane to me that the party would call Trump an existential threat to the country and do jack fucking shit for 4 years. DOJ sat on its ass for years until it was too late. No real life-changing bills passed to improve the lives of people. No effort to build up a strong candidate who could win in 2024. And absolutely no party platform outside of orange man bad.

Trump runs as an anti-establishment candidate and Democrats have yet to understand that. His support isn't all just hillbilly racists, it's people who the system has failed for decades. People who can't buy a home for their family, are paying student loans off into their 40's, and are living paycheck to paycheck at best.

It's why all the January 6th and democracy stuff didn't hit home with voters. Those were attacks on the system. They don't want the system to be protected, they want it broken. They don't want the Clintons and Cheneys, they want fresh faces not associated with the establishment like Dana White, Joe Rogan, and Elon.

Neoliberalism died in 2016. The Democratic Party refuses to accept that.

Worth noting that the GOP voter base continues to get more diverse with each election while the Democrats continue to get whiter.

Sure there's some racial components behind it but it also brings back a time where you could buy a home on a median salary, attend college without entering a lifetime of debt, and actually have something in the bank for down times.

Well Trump is already showing you who he is, he is going to ban transgenders day 1.

I do agree with banning biological men from competitive women's sports, but this is going to go well beyond this, and the message it sends will almost certainly get Trump cult worshippers to start doing nasty things to them.

I have zero respect for people (this is why Pelosi's interview aggravated me) who come out and say that knew what to do precisely as soon as it's too late. It's just like the people who talk about how terrible Trump is after they left his administration. Every single person in the 'I warned them and they didn't listen' camp has no credibility. Either stand up and be counted when it matters, or sit down and shut up.

.02

To be fair, you have never left that dark period even when Biden was in office or Obama or even Clinton. And CNN, MSNBC, ABC, CBS, NBC, LA Times, NY Times, AP, Reuters, and the good ole NPR will never allow you to leave. Welcome to the Hotel Propaganda. :)

Stand up, be counted, and be fired. Most people don't want to do that. They're willing to put up with some shit as long as they're on the winning side.

it's not propaganda if it is literally the words out of peoples mouths...A guy Trump had lunch with literally said to his large platform your body my choice.

Elon endorsed a statement that only Alpha males can really think independently.

It’s not propaganda if one speaks on one’s own behalf. He’s one dude with one opinion. Counter it with your own. That’s how it should work.

It is propaganda if the people that work at those mass media outlets and corporations are not allowing their employees their right to freedom of speech. If the companies have a policy where they cannot do that, then they certainly should not be forcing, coercing, or encouraging any of them to speak on the company’s behalf. That’s totalitarianism in practice and that is the true evil
upon our core values of the 1st Ammendment.

You realize the guy who you are cheering on has actually filed lawsuits against major media companies and is on record saying he wants to remove the broadcast licenses of media that speaks poorly of him.

So GTFO with your 1A arguments.

I love that business leaders are signalling that they'll pass tariffs onto American consumers and that abruptly altering the supply of workers is going to lead to higher prices for homes, at restaurants, etc.

"We" voted against these things and we're going to get more of it anyway. But at least it wasn't a surprise!

Read a CPA talking about tariffs and his argument for them was that sure prices will go up, but wages will also rise.

You know, inflation.

I have probably mentioned this before but my wife runs 2 companies for Warren Buffett controlled Marmon group.

Wednesday morning an email went out basically detailing how tariffs are going to effect businesses and consumers and it wasn't great.

Amazing anyone would think this was viable.

Biden just signed a potential TikTok ban into law. Here’s what happens next | CNN Business

Fascinating video. I learned that Trump doesn't even type his own tweets, even the ones that are in all caps. I wonder if that blonde is in bed with him at 2 AM to fire off those rage tweets?

Eh, TikTok is more a delivery mechanism/utility than a content creator. There’s a fair difference between them and a tv network or newspaper.

What a group of ghouls.

Regardless of party, the social media accounts of the President should be clearly labeled as them or others. Words matter and a staffer shouldn't be able to "be" the President.

After the Twitter purchase, a lot of people in national security and in corporate security banned the app from being used on phones due to security concerns. A lot of weird foreign actors involved in the group and it's probably just a matter of him not having it on his phone anymore like he used to.

Depending on how this is done, my wife could conceivably lose her citizenship even though she's been here her entire life. She's half Japanese and her dad was on temporary status when she was born. Her dad has been a citizen here for about 20 years and her grandparents gave up their Japanese citizenship in 2016 out of fear of something like this happening. Them giving up their citizenship was a huge deal for several reasons. The biggest impacting them currently is that her grandfather had to give up his Japanese retirement. He was "selected" to come over in the mid 80s for what was effectively semi-permanent Christian missionary work.

Her mom is a native US citizen so she should be ok. There are a ton of details I don't know because it's such a touchy subject but my wife did make the comment a couple days ago that, depending on how they try to eliminate birthright citizenship, it could have an impact on us.

Well, hold on a minute, if the U.S. imposed a 10% tariff on European vehicles (as opposed to the current 2.5%). That would mean VW, BMW, Mercedes, etc would need to raise their prices in the U.S. to match that increased import tax.

One of two things would happen,

1.)
People would buy more American cars, which would need more factories (good for the U.S. worker).

or

2.)
Europe, having its strong sellers presence taking a hit, could negotiate a 2.5% tariff on U.S. cars being sold in Europe (it’s currently 10%). Good for the American consumer.

Either way, we win something.

Trump has made it very clear that tariffs are not a global tariff but industry based decisions to help the American Worker or Consumer.

That’s just one example, but any tariffs that are lopsided (Asia/China come to mind) should and will be reviewed and negotiated for a better deal for us. That seems pretty obvious at this point.

This is not true. Trump has called for a blanket 10% or 20% tariff on all imported goods and a 60% tariff on goods from China. Who knows what he'll actually do, but he's calling for blanket tariffs.

It’s not my 1A argument, the last election should indicate to you—it’s Americas argument.

You can believe what you want, you can get mad at me if that helps, but the MSM needs to read the room. Elon Musk and X are dominating the MSM right now because the MSM simply isn’t trusted anymore. The MSM basically got bent over the table where the ratings are generated and they don’t know what to do. There current status is … status quo (oh, and—let’s shut down X so we can somehow win the next election).

I really had no idea the positive impact of Americans from all over the country having conversations about the news and 24/7 instantaneous rebuttals of any news reporting that was full of shit would have such a huge impact on the voters. Remember, the previous election, Twitter was run by a tool the same way ABC, NBC, and CBS are run. Now it’s Elon Musk who opened the communications to ALL people. You can’t deny the results.

That’s the 1A I’m talking about.

Trump imposed tariffs of 7.5% to 25% on goods coming from China when he was President. China responded by increasing their own tariffs.

The end result because capitalism > communism, is their own people took that right in the shorts (Higher cost for goods hits harder when $10,000 annual for majority of the workers in China is about the average). It forced the Chinese government to implement subsidies to a billion Chinese workers. That’s a massive drain on their coffers.

If Trump goes after the Chinese lopsided trade deals again and I think that’s pretty obvious that he will, they won’t have as much wiggle room to refuse to negotiate this time.

OK, but he's still saying he'll impose universal tariffs. He has not said what you claim.

Twitter isn't as important as Musk would have you believe. The video services are reaching more total people and more low-information voters. Most of Twitter's users are plugged in and not persuadable. Youtube and Tik Tok are reaching millions of non-voters and millions more persuadable voters.

The importance of Twitter is definitely overstated but there are so many outlets for news and information that the point still stands. YouTube, Twitch, TikTok, Facebook, etc. MSM has torched their reputation over the past 20 years and don't appear to be making any efforts of slowing that down.

How is it good for the U.S. worker? Do you think the car companies are going to start passing along the additional profits down to employees out of the goodness of their heart? Are we bringing trickle down economics back?

What it does do is hurt American consumers. Tariffs are why we don't have a cheap EV in the states. Eliminating competition just means car companies don't have to produce a better product and there is no real incentive to keep prices down or innovate.


Yeah, donate a bunch of money to my campaign and I'll ban your competitors. This is just corporate welfare and crony capitalism. Nothing more.

I agree with JPhillips. Trump has stated similar and threatened worse. I've not read him say it was "industry based" (but maybe MSM has been biasedly reporting it?).

Quote:

Though Trump inherits a strong economy and low inflation, he’s proposed a 10 to 20 percent tariff on all imports, and a 60 percent tariff on all imports from China.

I think its blustering to base (and it worked) and a negotiating position. And there is no doubt some countries will accede to whatever he wants with this bullying.

Personally, I do believe there are some specific segments, technologies and countries (China dumping) that we need impose tariffs. But not the general "all imports", not most lower value/strategic things like textiles, combustion engine autos, consumer electronics etc. I'd say let much of that business go nearshore like south of the border (help those economies, which should theoretically lessen illegal immigration).

Yes, this is what I see going forward. China is definitely his target. He'll be more selective with others. It won't be his blustering "all imports". Not sure I agree that China won't have more room to negotiate, seems like Russia and BRICS will make inroads meaning less dependence on US. But that's okay, there has been and will continue to be a lower level trade war and it will likely increase in intensity with Trump.

Interesting story, thanks for sharing.

From what I've read on the birthright proposal, she should be okay. Below was introduced by Lindsey Graham this past Sep titled "S. 5223: Birthright Citizenship Act of 2024". I've read other MSM articles similar re: the bolded section

Just a moment...

Quote:

“(b) Definition.—Acknowledging the Citizenship Clause in section 1 of the 14th Amendment to the Constitution of the United States, a person born in the United States shall be considered ‘subject to the jurisdiction’ of the United States for purposes of subsection (a)(1) if the person is born in the United States of parents, one of whom is— “(1) a citizen or national of the United States; “(2) an alien lawfully admitted for permanent residence in the United States whose residence is in the United States; or “(3) an alien performing active service in the Armed Forces (as defined in section 101 of title 10, United States Code).”.

For all practical purposes, there will need to be some sort of grandfather clause like below in the bill.

Quote:

(b) Applicability.—The amendment made by subsection (a)(3) may not be construed to affect the citizenship or nationality status of any person born before the date of the enactment of this Act.

re: losing Japanese retirement (and equivalent US social security), never thought of that. Checked to see what would happen if one gave up US citizenship ...

Should I listen to 23 Nobel prized winning economists or.....

checks notes

random guy on internet....

He literally said he was going to do a blanket tariff. Maybe you should pay some attention to the MSM you demonize so much because you clearly aren't getting all the info you should be.

https://www.cnbc.com/2024/02/04/trum...hina%20tariffs.

Latinos about to get their faces eaten

Trump appoints Project 2025 contributor Tom Homan as his “Border Czar.”

Homan was responsible for the Trump administration’s family separation policy and wants to deport children born in the United States. pic.twitter.com/w5Ifihw21T

— PatriotTakes 🇺🇸 (@patriottakes) November 11, 2024

"I don't know what Project 2025 is."

Facts are stubborn things.

Trump is the first politician in my lifetime who benefits from everyone thinking he lies about everything. It's his superpower.

It’s not about what he says or does it’s about what he REALLY means. What he really means is subjective and generally is what his individual supporter believes is right and/or should be done.

It does have to feel good that you can now go back to opposing this stuff again.

Biden Is Still Separating Immigrant Kids From Their Families - The Texas Observer

Remind me again about that time Biden said he wants to end birthright citizenship and deport actual US citizens.

I don't think any campaign tactics are going to matter to the guy who's willing to vote for Hitler.

This quote is absolutely insane. pic.twitter.com/OqaFOj2rct

— Philly’s Original Harden (@KHJ_Esq) November 11, 2024

Those Obama numbes.

Democrats had the worst performance with the youth vote since John Kerry in 2004.

Harris: +12
Biden: +24
Clinton: +19
Obama: +23
Obama: +34
Kerry: +9

— Cyrus Beschloss (@cyrusbeschloss) November 11, 2024

Hitler, who famously kept his country successfully out of any disastrous wars.

I don’t think people are more stupid than they’ve been for the last hundred years, but I do think social media gives us a unique insight into things that previously would have been laughed off as just another dumb thing that Joe said around the table at the bar after a few too many beers.

One of the great "what ifs" of the election would be how things would have turned out if Biden didn't bailout Silicon Valley Bank. All those tech and crypto bros had their money there and got saved only to use it to heavily fund Republicans in the election. One of the biggest self owns from a guy known for them.