My thoughts on the spoilers:

This show gets increasingly frustrating to watch these days. The obvious best talents in the group the past few years are not being recognized as such by the public (but are by the judges). The last season where the obvious talent won was Carrie Underwood's season. 2 years ago Taylor Hicks winning was a joke over Katherine McPhee, who was heads and shoulders better than everyone else. Last season Melinda Doolittle made everyone else look silly and was out 3rd or 4th. I can already see it happening this season with David Archuleta based on some of the comments here. If you don't recognize that as obvious talent over the rest of that group, I honestly don't know what to say.

I'm interested to see the girls this evening to see if there is a clear front-runner in that group like there should be in the guys' group.

(Yes, I know that comes off as sort of condescending, but I don't really care. It is how I feel. This is frustrating to watch)

Imagine is one of my favorite songs ever and I agree. I loved his performance.

MJ4H...

I know we've had this discussion before.

You are WAY too stuck on singing ability. If we want to have a pure singing contest, let's put them behind a screen and have them sing to a mic and play it back then vote.

That's not what it is, it's American Idol. I'm 100% with you on Taylor Hicks - but I think Melinda Doolittle's booming success has proven that America got it right.

Melinda Doolittle was a fantastic singer. The end.

Heh, nice match there for Brooke. And I hope Ramiele sings that well, I like that song.

David Cook strikes me as an uber arrogant prick.

Needless to say, I disagree. Also, I don't have any information on Melinda's success or failures so I can't comment on that. And no way do I concede that it means anyone got anything right.

And this is the entire problem. I'm way too caught up on singing ability because it is a singing competition. My frustration comes from people insisting it isn't and voting and worrying about the fact that a singer didn't do exactly what their favorite version of the song did, or if Melinda looks fat in so and so outfit, and whether someone likes to play scrabble.

FFS

The problem I have with Archuleta is that he performs everything like he's in a pageant. Which is natural to him, because that's all he's known. It's like seeing some beauty pageant chick walking down the street and she gives you the "royalty" wave. It's like that way of performing has become so ingrained that they can't turn it off - it becomes part of them.

It just doesn't feel natural when I watch him. No doubt he's got a very good voice, but the way he uses it feels phony to me. He's not quite as bad as Menard in that respect, but similar. It's all very theatrical, except not quite Broadway-ish. Honestly, if I never knew he was on Star Search, that's exactly what I'd call that performance last night.

I don't know...I'm not the best judge of these things, since I prefer music where the vocalist is part of a band, as opposed to the main (or only) focus. So watching him perform seemed less real to me than, say, David Cook.

It's a singing competition to find a "star" singer. Surely you recognize that it takes more than just pure vocal talent to be a star, right? That's what people are voting for.

DialIdol results:

hxxp://dialidol.com/asp/predictions/Predictions.asp

Quick comment:

It is not a singing competition. It is a competition to find a pop star.

Melinda Doolittle was nowhere close to a pop star. David Archuleta can sing well, but choirs are not part of American pop music.

*ding ding ding*

Again, I've gone round and round on this with MJ4H before. I respect his opinion, but he can't understand that this is not a "who is the purest singer" competition, it's just not - no matter how many times you say it is it won't become that.

It's a pop star competition. Melinda Doolittle was NOT a pop-star. Archuletta, he may be - jury is still out.

In case you are trying to decide whether to look at those spoilers for tonight or not, all it is the song choices for tonight. I'm not sure we need a spoiler for those since we've openly posted them before in previous AI threads, but thanks for putting them in spoilers just in case people didn't want to know beforehand.

Why do you think I can't understand that it isn't? Of course I understand it isn't. That's my whole frustration.

Of course, it should be a pure singing competition in my mind. That is what people should be interested in. People with talent. But if people just want to manufacture the next Britney, I understand it, I just don't agree it is desirable.

Also, David was phenomenal last night. I honestly am in shock that some people didn't see that.

Here's my theory - Archuleta is being groomed for the Disney market. They tried with Jordin, but they really screwed up last year with so little focus on her background. I've noticed over the past month or so that Jordin is all over Radio Disney, when she wasn't played at all before. So they're trying hard to go after the

Case in point: Disney's new American Idol attraction. They tie-in is there, and I suspect they see this as the perfect cure for their CD sales problems. I imagine that after seeing how well Sanjaya did in the voting last year, they realized that if they got a couple of legit 16-18 year olds, they could make a killing in the Hannah Montana demographic.

Also, considering the way the song choices are made, does anyone doubt for a second that it isn't just a coincidence that Imagine was among the 50 or so song choices OK, I'll take my tin foil hat off now...

EDIT: What the hell is going on with this board today?

Yes. What part of what it takes did David not have last night? People say they don't see why the judges praised his performance last night. So, let's hear it. What part of that did he fail in?

One of mine, too. I almost missed your comment. I'm glad someone else felt that way. It was a very moving performance, and pitch, for once, was spot on. I don't care how likable you are, or how much you like crosswords, if you can't sing in tune, you are not going to make it.

Actually, one of the worst live performances from a big name pop-star I've ever heard was Avril Lavigne. Either she was having a really bad night when I heard her or had a cold or something, or she can't sing in tune a lick. Maybe they are really good at covering pitch problems up now through some sort of processing or maybe they have her record little bits at a time over and over again until she hits the pitches, but I almost thought I was listening to a different person.

(by the way, this was a live performance on TV. haha like I would be at an Avril Lavigne concert)

I've already posted a couple of times what my personal problem is with him. Maybe you didn't get what I was trying to say, or you didn't read it. Not sure which. And don't worry, based on the DialIdol numbers, there are plenty of people who agree with you.

I'm not sure if this makes any more sense than what I've already written about it, but...it felt like watching a performance of a performance. Like he was acting the performance, instead of just...doing it. It came across as very choreographed, down to every nuanced movement, facial expression, etc. Maybe I'll like him better if/when he's forced to do something he hasn't been doing since before he reached puberty.

This is actually my biggest pet peeve with the judges, Randy and Simon especially. They go on and on about how its a singing contest yet comment on their personality, appearance, and performance. You can't have it both ways. If its just a singing contest they should be commenting on their voices and nothing else.

As for Archuletta being a pop-star or not, he reminds me very much of Josh Groban. Not sure if he's considered a pop-star or not. I think David may struggle a bit when they hit more specific themes like disco.

Fair enough. It was a very good act. Maybe if you didn't know he'd done it before, you wouldn't have felt that.

I would argue that the ability to do this convincingly would make for a great pop star these days. I can see how that would feel hollow to you, though. I would still say it is light years better than anyone else that night in a purely technical sense. If nothing else, you'd have to agree the raw ability is there. Right? I don't see anyone else that night that performed better, even if I did feel it was stiff and robotic. He nailed the crap out of it.

edit: this was a reply to Ksyrup

(also, mmmm syrup)

I'd say Josh Groban is definitely a pop star. Not the same pop as Justin Timberlake, but still a pop star.

They are looking for the "American Idol." Singing is of primary importance, but without any of the other stuff, they do not fit the title. Of all the winners, who has NOT been able to sing, at least competently enough to record? I'm not saying they're all great, but we haven't seen the likes of a Hillary Duff-type contestant make it all the way to the finals yet, I don't think. People like Ace Young get weeded out in the middle rounds. He was not a good enough singer to win the competition.

Don't get me started (*cough Taylor Hicks cough*)

Really, though, it breaks my heart to see that you are assigning the criteria for a winner as "sing at least competently enough to record." I think that's where the biggest disconnect between me and the American public is.

In a nutshell.

MJ4H you act like we're all saying David sucks. I don't think anyone has. I think we've all recognized that he has an amazing singing voice. It's the *performance* that some of us have not liked.

I view "Imagine" as one of the most emotion triggering songs I have ever heard in my life. Music rarely pulls emotion from me and Imagine does every single time I hear it.

David's performance was very technical sound and "flawless". It had no emotion for me. He's so polished that I can't get into the emotion of the song.

There is much, much more to music than technical ability. Maybe not for you, but for many, many other people. I can't tell the difference between perfect pitch and very good pitch. Often when a judge says they missed some notes, i'm clueless. I want to see a singer that I ENJOY. Some of the best musicians of our time, imo, were not necessarily the greatest singers.

Chris Daughtry is a good example. In the 2 (going on 3 now) seasons that I have watched he was by far the contestent I enjoyed the most. However, he is not a super-proficient technical singer. Put him up against Melinda Doolittle and I will pick Daughtry and give them 100 songs and I probably ENJOY at least 80 out of 100 songs that Daughtry does more (and that's probably generous to Melinda).

I see no purpose behind a pure singing ability contest. We don't need America for that. Get a computer that can analyze the intended notes and if it's on key and boom, there's your winner. Or get experts to select like you would in a real professional "singing contest".

This is a music star contest. There is FAR more to a music star than singing. This is not about "recreating Britney" and I think this contest has proven that. I think every winner (even Taylor Hicks) can sing better than Britney can - but every successful winner/contestant has had more to them than just pure singing.

You posted this while I was making my main post.

You want something that is not American Idol and will not ever be successful on TV. YOu will need to speak to regional singing competitions, etc. I would almost guarantee you that there are 1000's of singers that are better singers than a majority of the people that have ever made TV for idol. But they're pure singers and have no business on AI or a similar show.

I don't think you can get upset at Idol for not being what you want which is not what it pretends to be.

Without a doubt, he gave a good vocal. But really - and I'm sure I'll get killed for this, but what the hell, it was the honest reaction I had last night after watching him - I came to the conclusion that he is a rich man's Chicken Little. Or that Federov guy from a few years back. Very sterile, technically hitting the notes, but leaving me cold. That performance didn't move me an inch.

Again, I guess I'm just so used to seeing people perform in a less emotionally-sanitized way that I don't see what others see in him - and I'm not limiting this to him or even contestants in this show, either. I get the same thing with legit recording artists. If you compare his performance last night with one of the performances The Clark Brothers gave on Great American Band and don't see a difference, then I guess we'll just have to chalk it up to different expectations or musical backgrounds or something. Because what I saw out of him was the act of sincerity, neatly packaged and designed to score well with the audience and judges, but lacking true emotion/soul. It was a pageant performance. I guess that's the best way I can describe it.

Here, this is a good comparison. This is The Clark Brothers performing Rod Stewart's You're In My Heart, which is a good comparison because it's a song that could be (maybe has been?) performed on AI and it's slow.




Certainly not the best vocal you'll ever hear, but to me, the emotion and feeling of the individuals was authentic and elevated their performance. And hell, I don't even like bluegrass/country, and I thought they were great. But that's what seems mostly lacking from Archuleta. I think it's a combination of his age and doing stuff like Star Search his whole life.

But Wade, David's performance made Paula cry (and want to squeeze his head off), how can you say it was unemotional? :)

I think the problem here is that what you're not getting is that this show is all about finding a recording artist. Sometimes it works - Kelly, Carrie - and sometimes it doesn't - Ruben, Taylor. Because the risk they run in doing this as a TV show is that what makes for a good TV show contestant doesn't necessarily make for a good recording artist. Taylor was undeniably the best story of his season - he was likeable, he was fun to watch on a TV show, he was completely against the grain of what you'd think of as an American Idol - and the voting public ate it up. When it came to buying his records, not many people cared for a poor man's Michael McDonald. But that's the disconnect they are trying to bridge the gap of now.

Keep in mind, I don't care one bit about these people as artists once they leave the show. So none of this breaks MY heart. If Archuleta goes on to sell $10 million records, good for him. If he gets knocked out in the top 5 and Carly wins, I really couldn't care less, other than as it affects my viewing of the TV show. The criteria I assigned to this was what, in reality, I think the producers are looking for. It's beyond obvious that if they truly wanted the best singers, we would have an entirely different set of 24 people up there.

The Clark Brothers rule.

To pull this off-topic - any idea when we can expect a studio album from them?

Not sure. Last I heard, they were writing and recording early this year. I haven't looked lately, but my guess is late summer at the earliest.

And yes, to all the people who disagree with me, I see the irony in comparing contestants from one AI-produced show to another. But that makes the comparison somewhat apt, as well, because there's such a gap in the sincerity of the performances that I think it's the best way to make my point.

For me, I appreciate the spoilers. I like the element of surprise.

Yeah, that kind of stuff should be in spoiler tags because it ruins the show for some people. I like to know everything going in. But I don't want to start anything about what should/shouldn't be in spoilers, so I'll put all of it in spoilers.

Now, what I heard about Captain America being brought back...I ain't puttin' THAT shit in spoilers! :p

No, I'm acting like nobody else thought he was by far the most talented person on that stage last night.

It's a great song. I love it, too.


I don't understand this. Is it the flaws that make it emotional for you?


This is a little insulting. I am a musician. I know what there is to music.

Most of the best musicians are not great singers. Usually they do other things well (like compose or play an instrument), though.

Actually, I disagree. He was pretty spot-on pitch-wise. Where he ran into trouble sometimes was running a little low on steam. This is not a major problem for a recording artist (well, not a show-stopper anyway--recording sessions can be marathons). Anyway, I think he was a very accurate (in terms of pitch and clarity). I think that is a big reason he is a relative success.

That's fine. They sing entirely different styles. It is not unusual for a person to prefer one style over another. That shouldn't be the issue here. At least if you are being fair.

A computer cannot analyze a pure singing contest. I'm not proposing anything nearly that robotic. David's performance was moving to me, not just note perfect (it wasn't even that, incidentally). I'm not sure why you continue to polarize the issue as technical vs. emotional. I am taking both into account. I don't feel that you are, though.

Agreed, but in vocal music, it is by far the most important. You must have that mastered before you can do the rest.

Yes, popularity. Not sure I'd agree with you on Taylor, incidentally. Britney wasn't that bad a singer. The times I heard her live, she was ok. Her tone is questionable and she doesn't project well at all, but Taylor had some major control and pitch issues that just can't be hidden. That is why he isn't doing well today. I think he can, though, truthfully, it will just be harder because of his shortcomings.

Look. Stop saying I don't get it. Believe me, I get it. I just don't like it. I think it should not be that way. It is not that I don't get it.

OK, then I don't get it. Why shouldn't it be that way? What makes AI different from any other attempt to find a recording artist?

If you want to argue against the recording industry or what America wants/ like, then fine. But don't act like AI should take it upon themselves to force-feed America with a "star" that America most likely won't embrace. Having Melinda Doolittle win last year might have made YOU feel better, but I don't think the suits who funnel cash into the show and the subsequent recorded product would have felt so good, because they understand the deal.

This probably does a better job of what I'm trying to say than anything I've said.

You (MJ4H) feel I'm not taking technical ability into account enough - I think you're giving it too much weight.. *shurg*..

On David's performance I think we just disagree completely on the emotion conveyed and that's such a personal preference I don't think we can say either of us is right or wrong.

I'll try to explain it similarly to how KSyrup did. David's rendition of Imagine was a well-rehearsed recital of a beautiful song. I don't feel that he even knows what words he is singing. On the other hand, it was clear that John Lennon was singing every word from his heart. You could feel his longing for a utopian world with every note.

You don't have to keep trying to explain it to me. I know you think because I disagree with you it is because I just don't get it. That is not the case.

You said you don't understand how we could not like his performance. I realize "you understand" American Idol and just wish it wasn't that way, but you don't seem to understand how someone could dislike David's performance from last night.

I believe I said if you didn't see that David Archuleta had the most talent on that stage last night then I didn't understand. I understand why people didn't like his performance after I believe it was ksyrup explained his position. I found it surprising, frankly, since I was very moved by it, but I understand it.

The show has very rarely had the best talent win in my opinion. Underwood and Clarkson being the possible exceptions. I say possible for Clarkson only because I've still never been shure how Christina Christian lost and then just vanished.

OK, this is technically a spoiler, so I'll treat it as such. But it's just a photo of one of the girls during her performance tonight. And I thought it needed to be shared (note: it's not what you think/hope it is)...

I think I get extra credit because of the way it springs out at you when you hit the "show spoiler" button.

I don't know that it needs the help. ;)

Something else sprung out when I saw that picture - woweee!!

Really?

I mean, really?

Am I on candid camera??

:D

I'm hoping that was his way of trying to entice people to look at the spoiler.

I mean, really, really hoping.

Honestly, I think you and Wade have him prejudged, and there is not much he could ever do to open your minds. My wife sat beside me a cried as he sang that song. No emotion? Maybe to you, but my guess is you're in the small minority. He strikes me as pretty genuine, honestly. He has skill, which comes from experience, but he also seems to enjoy what he is doing. He'll never be my cup-of-tea, but I can at least credit him for being what he is, and that is performer who is head-and-shoulders above every other guy in this competition.

GrantDawg has my proxy here.