But that does not mean that Palpatine KNEW... which was the point, yeah?


I caught the line as well. Though some say Palpatine was Plagueis's apprentice. I don't see it that way (though it could be, who knows). I know that Palpy said we can discover the secret, but it seems he didn't care about the secret and just wanted Anakin to turn.

And apparently, from what I've read on other forums, in the novelization of RotS, the scene where Vader breaks all the droids, he is trying to get at Palpatine after being told Padme was dead (thinking he was fooled) before he realized it was useless. Can someone who has the book confirm or deny that?

So you believe Palpatine had the foresight to keep all these things in motion, and know what would motivate Anikin to do what he wanted. Including seeing Padme's death without being told by Anakin about it.

Yoda even has problems seeing things before they happen.

Yet, he isn't powerful enough to keep someone alive? The movies do a terrible job of explaining what the force is capable of, and such. Books, and games do a much better job.

IMO, keeping someone alive is FAR harder than looking into the future. We have seen that Jedi and Sith have some capacity to see into the future. But for keeping someone alive, all we've been told is one man figured that out and told it to his apprentice.

We don't KNOW that is a lie though. No plotline revelation in the storyline of Star Wars has been shown to be false, that I can think of, anyway. And besides, the good-evil paradigm of Star Wars would lead you to believe that the good guys are always telling the truth, and the bad guys can not be trusted. Palpatine is almost expected to lie.

As you alluded to Obi-Wan does say that Vader killed Anakin. Now perhaps you can say he was streaching the truth, and Anakin was dead to him when he turned, but I'd still say it was a lie.

Obi-Wan does tell a lie when he tells Luke that his father wanted him to have his lightsaber. Anakin says no such thing.

Well, if StarWars.com can be taken with any salt.

http://www.starwars.com/databank/cha...ker/index.html

In KOTOR, someone did it who wasn't even a Jedi master. Wasn't on the council ... nothing. KOTOR happened long before the movies, but it's hard for me to imagine that someone not even a council member can do it, but the dark lord of the sith who was taught everything by his master who could do it ..... can't.

Just doesn't make sense.

Who says Plagieus was Sidious's master? That's just speculation and I'm not sure any of that story Sidious said was true (or rather was merely legend).

KOTOR also had battle meditation, which would have been useful for Jedi's to use during the Clone Wars ;). The fact that KOTOR had it doesn't say anything to me. That was 1000 years before Ep 1. Knowledge could have been lost... especially with what occured in KOTOR II.

And, after all, Palpatine spoke as if only Plageius had discovered how to do it AND that it was ONLY knowable by the Sith... not the Jedi. So it seems things have changed since KOTOR's Jedi.

The Zahn trilogy has Darth Sidious as a person that used battle meditation.

Interesting... it seems that he wasn't trying to get at Palpatine... unless 'the shadow' can be a stand in for him. But I think that means his internal shadow. Though I could be mistaken.

Was it used during the Clone Wars (don't know about books for that) or was it too specialized for any of the Jedi at the time?

Just gonna say that I saw the movie tonight and that I really enjoyed it...despite the bad Anakin/Padme lines...

I don't think battle meditation has been mentioned during the Clone Wars.

Since battle meditation was used in KOTOR, I guess someone could write up a reason that it was too powerful (perfect for a sith) and erased from the archives, or a sith stole it. The person able to use it in KOTOR did turn.

dola

This question was asked earlier, why is Leia, a princess?

In the novelization of ROTS, they mention Bail is a prince. So it can be assumed that he becomes King sometime between Ep. 3 and 4.

[edit]Read the last chapter again and Bail says his wife the Queen. So maybe he is already the King. I brought up prince because it mention's prince consort hands Leia to the queen.

It's been a long time since I saw the original trilogy (but taking care of that soon, just placed all three and The Clone Wars in my Netfilx queue) but maybe Leia is a princess in the same way that Padme was queen...as an elected official?

Is that whole book written in second person?

I'm assuming that yes, Palpatine learned everything from Plageuis, but he had not yet used the power to create life/cheat death, or discovered its effects/side-effects. (seeing that Plageuis was the only one who had ever achieved it, if my interpretation of the 2nd quote is correct.)

I think it's all meant to be subjective. A metaphor for all of us to ponder upon until Lucas is forced to reveal all when Lucas Arts files for bankrupcy.

DAMN.

I'm getting the fucking novel.

Now THAT is what I call an emotion-filled transformation from human to machine.

Far better than the cheesy scene in the movie.

I believe that the Jedi used battle meditation as well in the Clone Wars. They influenced their soldiers (the clones) to fight better than the droids. there's some sort of Battle Meditation involved as well, I'm sure.

This is evident with the RotJ novel, wherein the death of Palpatine brought ruin to the Imperial Fleet, since he was no longer influencing them through the force. Same thing with Admiral Thrawn in the Corellian Trilogy.

If I remember that shadow was Sidious.

Interesting. If all the damage to Anakin's body in that passage is accurate, then how in the world is he able to speak or see or hear normally when Luke removes his mask at the end of ROTJ?

http://darthdolenz.ytmnd.com/

This made me giggle.

There's this one also-

http://unitedstatesofno.ytmnd.com/

One more question that I hope someone can answer...

Anakin joins the darkside in hopes of saving Padme. Yet, when he's the man-machine Vader, Palpatine tells him that he killed Padme. So, not only did the dark side NOT save her, but he actually killed her himself because of the dark side.

Why does Vader continue to follow the dark side after all this? Is it as simple as he's consumed by the dark side and CAN'T go back?

Go back to what?

He's wiped out all the Jedi. The only ones left are Obi-Wan (who just about killed him) and Yoda (who probably would have finished the job properly).

Padme is dead. He has no idea he has any kids to live for. He's got nothing. At that point, he might as well get on with ruling the galaxy.

The danger of attatchments for the Jedi. He had three things in his life, 1) the power which he would use to 2) create order, guard life, protect the republic, ect for 3) those he cared about. Those he cared about are either dead or, as he sees it, abandoned him. So all Vader has left is his power to create order to the galaxy. And one could see how that power becomes more and more corrupting as the years go by until he himself can't see a way away from it. "It is too late for me, my son." But Luke showing up brings back the people he cared about part of the equation, which allows him to redeem himself as Anakin, by turning on the dark for someone he cares about.

Ah.. I see the part where it turns from 3rd person to 2nd person. It does say the shadow was Sidious... so he WAS trying to get at Sideous when destroying everything.


Yes. Once you enter the dark side, it is extremely difficult to come back. That is why even being tempted by the dark side is bad.

techincally, there were still other jedis alive, since not every jedi was killed in the clone wars...which is what the live action series will be (partly) about.

but i agree with your point.

I didnt like the concept of Obi-Wan walking away and letting him suffer. Surely he should have just finished the job, or perhaps have been fired upon or something so as to give him the reason to leave the site. But he should have finished the job properly.

Well, the way it happened was the only way to tie up some of the loose ends leading into ANH... Vader has to survive, but be horribly mangled, and Obi-Wan has to somehow obtain his lightsaber to give to Luke later on.

I think the earlier theory, that Obi-Wan was holding back for most of the fight, is probably true. I don't think he really wanted to kill Anakin.

Here's an inconsistency that bothers me: at the end of III, you get the impression that Vader is second in command and won't take any crap from anyone. Then by the beginning of IV he is taking orders from Tarkin and Imperial people making fun of his religion to his face. He gets more authoritative as the original trilogy goes on, but in the beginning he is not as much a badass. Am I wrong on this?

I think so. I always saw Vader as being in charge, even though Tarkin is captain of the Death Star. I saw Vader as letting Tarkin have his position while he was the actual power. Vader sees Tarkin as a good soldier and didn't want to destroy him (from the end of Ep 3, it seem Tarkin was there at the beginning).


I wouldn't have disappointed if Obi-Wan did. It's very un-Jedi to strike down an 'unarmed' man. That's why Anakin felt bad after he did so to Dooku.

Here is what I am mostly referring to:

Deference to Tarkin, and Motti doesn't seem to be scared of him. I can see your point, but it just seemed like a different dynamic from one film to the next.

From what I've read outside the movies themselves, Tarkin was regarded as the most brilliant military tactician in the galaxy, and was the supreme commander of the Imperial Navy.

Once Tarkin was dead, Vader assumed his role, and stopped taking any shit from pissant admirals and star destroyer captains.

I think that's right. Also, it seems to be assumed that by the time Ep IV starts the Jedi are pretty much presumed to be wiped out. Vader was probably focused on chasing the last few down, while Grand Moff and the other Imperials handled the more militaristic side of the campaign (crushing the rebel alliance).

Once the Grand Moff was killed there was not only a void in leadership, but by the begining of ESB Vader and the Emperor know Luke is alive and are pretty much focused exclusively on capturing him, making defeating the rebel alliance pretty much secondary. Since the focus has shifted once more to "Jedi" affairs, it makes sense the Vader is the top dog.

Well, there is also compassion for not letting a friend feel pain.

Only one guy makes fun of Vader, and I doubt he would do it twice.

Vader works outside the imperial fleet chain of command and in that scene he is dealing with imperial fleet matters, so he defers to Tarkin.

Dude. Seriously. Did you see what he did to the younglings? HE BUTCHERED THE YOUNGLINGS. A man who butchers innocent little younglings deserves no such compassion.

On the DVD commentary for Ep IV, someone (can't remember if was Lucas), explains that Vader was intended to be viewed as more of a pathetic characater for much of IV, that subscribed to "old school" beliefs that most others dismissed. Thus, it was common for him to be pushed around by politicians and administrative-types. In reality, of couse, Vader comes off as pretty bad-ass and powerful throughout the entire movie. Lucas (or whoever) acknowledged that the Moff/meeting scene didn't really fit how the Vader character actually turned out, and felt compelled to explain why is was there.

i always found the "ancient religion" part weird. i mean, they were ALL alive when jedis were running around kicking everyones ass. it wasnt even 2 decades ago!

I didn't see him butcher any younglings. All I got was a quick flash of a lightsaber. Now... if they actually showed Anakin slicing down kids and teens in the temple, then I would say that they did their job in turning him against the audience successfully.

Which would be outweighed by not striking down an unarmed opponent. Remember, Anakin was his opponent. He wasn't fighting beside him and then went down.

If Obi-Wan did it, he'd either do it out of anger or a strong compassion for his friend. I think both would be forbidden by the Jedi Code. Remember, even 'good' attachment to others, such as love, can be a path to the Dark Side. The Jedi are like stoics, they are required to be devoid of such emotion.

At least that is how I see it.


I think everyone knew he did it. Lucas didn't want to turn the film to an R rated one for one scene (Anakin killing young children explicitly would have done it). People in the theater I was in gasped, loudly.

I finally got around to seeing the movie. I have to say it was good, a billion times better than the first two crappy movies. I don't know where to rank it yet within the whole series, but stand-alone it was a very good film (besides Portman and Haydens stone acting). The first team I heard the breath from Vader it sent chills down my spine. It ended up answering some of the questions I wanted answered and the last 45 minutes of the film were superb. I went in being a sympathetic to the Dark Side and the Empire (I even got a "Alderaan Deserved it" shirt) but came out of the movie hating the Empire.

I thought this was pretty funny

hxxp://vaderinternet.ytmnd.com/

Ok I haven't read through this whole thread (I probably will later on) but there may be some plot holes in this movie (or maybe I just missed it). How the hell does Obi-Wan not recognize R2 in ANH when Luke brings R2 to his house??? WTF? He says something like "I don't remember owning a droid." Also, Is R2's memory erased too with C3PO's?

Two other things kind of annoyed me, Luke's uncle and aunt have English accents in Episode 2 (I don't know if they talk in Episode 3) yet they have American accents in the older movies.

Did the Trade Federation leaders' asian accents go away completely in this movie or is that just me?

I still don't understand how Vader was concieved. Is he evil Jesus?

The story was rushed, the whole Senate must be retarded because they just accepted whatever Sidious said and cheered and loved him without question. And how does Luke go from "What did I just do?" to Sith-Loving Evil guy in literally 2 secondes?

The gay Noooooo by Vader at the end was out of character completely.

Hayden is a horrible actor. Lucas sucks at writing. He could have made the story so much better. The problem with the script was that there wasn't enough shock value (although the killing of the younglings was "good"). Vader needs a father damnit!!!!

The problems with the plot holes and other little things hurt the movie, but in the end it was satisfying I guess, just to have it all finished.

[quote=Sharpieman]Ok I haven't read through this whole thread (I probably will later on) but there may be some plot holes in this movie (or maybe I just missed it). How the hell does Obi-Wan not recognize R2 in ANH when Luke brings R2 to his house??? WTF? He says something like "I don't remember owning a droid." Also, Is R2's memory erased too with C3PO's?
[quote]

Droids are a dime a dozen, and r2 was never "his" droid anyways

Yeah, the accents were all off.
Its possible that Plageius made Anakin, but its also possible he is evil Jesus. Its not a "for certain" point, probably meant to spur debate and keep people interested in the series.

In Episode 2 Dooku reveals that over 100 senators are under influence of a Sith lord. Im sure the number has increased.


He had already begun the path to the darkside in episode 2, and the guilt associated with killing Windu had to push him over the edge. At that point, Anakin was meat unless he destroyed the Jedi.


Brutally awful, i agree.

Yeah, his writing wasnt as good as it should have been. While i can agree you dont get the R rating, it still wasnt very hardcore for a pg13 movie, he had plenty of room to expand, etc. Basically he wasted far too much film on episodes 1 and 2, only leaving him 2 hours to do episode 3.

Basically he could have cut about an hour out of episode 1 at least, and inserted most of the better episode 2 parts into it. And then perhaps end episode 2 with the saving of palpatine sequence that began episode 3. And then had more time for episode 3.

I'd love to learn a lot more about Darth Plageius, he seems to be the most powerful Sith leader ever.

Not like that pussy Darth Maul who couldn't even take out a padawan.

This is exactly how Hitler came to power. "So this is how liberty dies: to thunderous applause" is such a true line. Revolutions are most often populist, and people will give up anything if there is a perceived threat. Just look at our own country, would you have thought 5 years ago that we would ever make torture a fundamental part of our national policy? Now, to most people, it is no big deal that we do this, because there is a perceived threat that we must do anything to vanquish. It was the same for the Senators in the SW universe. They were ready to give up all of their freedoms to protect their freedoms. It seems pardoxical to an outsider, but it happens all the time in reality.