I am a loss thinking what might get Trump to drop out at this point, barring actual death.

Didn't realize the DeSantis-Newsom debate was tonight. Don't think I'll have access to watch it but looking forward to reading about it tomorrow.

Red and blue America square off in clash of the governors

Media sure does promote division.

Why in the hell would DeSantis even agree to this?

Why does this exist at all?

Debates between candidates running for the same office at least let us evaluate them for that office.

But this is just a debate about . . . policy I guess? And watching two dudes argue has to be the least effective way to make policy decisions out there.

I mean, who is thinking "Well, I was for more funding for border patrol, but then Newsome had a pretty good zinger about it, and DeSantis sort of stumbled over his rebuttal to that, so I am going to change my mind?"

It makes sense for Newsome to boost himself nationally. I think the guy is really good at speaking policy and, no, it's not going to change anyone's mind. However, desantis' idea to boost his campaign is to debate someone that isn't running for President? I don't see any scenario where this is a positive for DeSantis.

Depends on the size of the lifts her wears as to how much of a boost he'll get.

I guess I'm just tired of the "Debate Me!" culture.



"I disagree with you that Lizard People from Mars are secretly controlling the Chinese government."

"Oh Yeah! If you are so sure about that, then DEBATE ME!"

"No. I am not going to debate you."

"Then I must be right because you are too scared to DEBATE ME!"

Phillips doesn't stand a chance but this is a horrible look.

Florida Democrats plan to cancel presidential primary, enraging Dean Phillips’ campaign - POLITICO


Florida Dems are such a disaster and need a complete overhaul.

In a normal world I would agree with you.

But isn't this kind of standard procedure nowadays? Didn't the GOP give Trump a free ride through the 2020 primaries?

I need to look up Dean sometime.

It's stupid to have a primary at all if there's an incumbent president. Who's the last dem incumbent to face an actual opponent in a primary? Ted Kennedy v Carter?

Buchanan in '92 was probably the last threat to an incumbent at all.

Props to Newsome for doing this. Hannity has stacked this debate as far against Newsome as possible and DeSantis still comes off as being awful.

Literal example of a question:

"Many people, myself included, feel Biden is in significant mental decline. Do you think he's up to the job?"

Another:

"Is inflation hurting your state, yes or no?"

Another:

My cherry picked stat shows there is more mass shootings in California than in Florida, but California has the strictest gun control in the country "do gun control laws work?"

Taking the entire debate at face value with no context:

Slight win for Newsome. He's a strong debater and Ron either doesn't have the skills or doesn't put in the work. When you opponent is dropping number and after number after number and the best you can do is say something along the lines of "that's not true" then you're not prepared. Ron was able to land a few blows, but he really just didn't have many counters to the facts Newsome was hitting him with.

Looking at this debate with the context of Hannity hosting this on Fox News and loading or setting up every question to benefit DeSantis:

DeSantis got trounced. He's governor that could have coasted on the rep he had built, returned to Seanate after his current term, and then ran again as governor if he wanted.

Instead he's been exposed as not being a national candidate. He loves to bully people weaker than him or those without a voice, but he folds quick when challenged publicly. He has zero stage presence or charisma and looks like he is uncomfortable in his own skin anytime he's on a stage like this.

Newsom sucks but the one thing he is good at is debating. No clue why DeSantis would agree to that.

Didn't really want to waste 90 minutes of my life I would never get back, but let me guess.

Lot's of yelling and insults, very little in the way of policy and the typical attacks.

DeSantis - Your lockdowns in Covid hurt your states mental health.
Newsome - You nonchalance in Covid caused a higher percentage of your citizens to die.

DeSantis - California is lawless.
Newsome - What is your ratio of gun violence again?

DeSantis - You're a bully!
Newsome - You're a wanna be Dictator!

Every single topic Newsome would hit DeSantis with statistics and he didn't have a comeback. Hannity cherry picked crime rate data to show how safe Florida is in comparison to California and Newsome countered with violent crime and murder stats ro show Florida is exponentially more dangerous. The only thing DeSantis could do is continue to point to the numbers Hannity provided.

At one point DeSantis did call Newsome a bully. He also pulled a poop map out of his pocket to show people were pooping on streets in California? DeSantis is weird.

The 10 minutes I flipped over for was Newsome saying "you banned a lot of books, here's a list of some of them" and DeSantis saying "no I didn't" over and over.

I think the weird thing for me with DeSantis is he does stuff conservatives want and then denies them. You're doing a debate on Fox News man. You're running in a primary against Trump where your single best attack is that you actually do the stuff Trump says he'll do. Why fucking back down?

But he doesn't want to have to defend specific books that were banned. Or even specific actions he knows aren't as popular. Pick the popular actions and highlight that so that the other stuff is never focused on.

Or, he's just not very bright. But dogmatic and angry, which is what passes for bright in GOP circles these days.

So you don't buy the plausible deniability of not telling schools and libraries to ban books while signing into law ambiguous morality legislation that threatens potential financial and legal consequences if others don't ban books?

Jesus, a poop map? DeSantis is the most awkward wanna be cool kid walking the planet.

Lots of fanboying out over that poop map though.

Maybe that poop map is a map of DeSantis's fanboys.

lmao poopmap

If you live in a poop map city, you kind of know where the poop is going to be, but also, I think non-poop city dwelling people underestimate what a big deal that can be.

It is a big deal. It's a systemic failure of some part of the economy. I was in SF the week of the Chinese visit, now we were far away on the north side by Fisherman's Warf, and not down near Union Square where we typically are, but even just driving through the city back and forth it was a marked difference. It's an issue you can't simply throw money at, and you can't force people to participate in things they won't. But at some point poop cities needs to get creative and they need to get realistic about the problem.

Haley getting real. Article doesn't have specific details but good that she is willing to have a frank discussion on Social Security & Medicare. Hope this is a topic for the next debate in a couple days.

Nikki Haley wants to reform Social Security and Medicare. Donors are paying attention | CNN Politics

How about just making the wealthy actually pay into it? If they increased the cap on when you stop paying into it, we may actually be able to keep it going.

That should be the first thing they do before anything else. Once you do that, then you can discuss what else needs to be done.

See link, check out "Revenue" tab.

The Reformer: An Interactive Tool to Fix Social Security

Basically, that alone won't do it. It needs to be a combination of "other" stuff. And then you've got a political fight on what the "other" stuff is.

Don't pay any attention to a 75 year window.

But even given that, taxing all wages and increasing SS taxes by 1% covers 93% and keeps the trust fund positive until 2085.

Yea, simply taxing over $400k makes up 65% or something and keeps it going until 2070 with no other changes.

Last time social security was "fixed" for 75 years was in 1983. We'll be in trouble again in approx. 2034 or in 50 years (so 25 years ahead of schedule).

If you aim to fix it for 50 years, we'll have another crisis in 25-30-35 years for one reason or another.

re: taxing all wages, that would break Joe's promise (and Dems by extension) of only $400K or above. It's been a while since we've seen the 3rd rail at work (e.g. read my lips, no new taxes). Should be fun to see it happen again.

Edward, then let them worry about it 20-30-40 years down the road. Why are we trying to fix something that hasn't even happened yet? Take the cap off, then you have decades before you have to worry about changing the age of retirement or increasing taxes/decreasing benefits.

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That is a fair question. And I don't know the answer. And the model doesn't give the ability to change from 75 to 50 to play around with the different options.

If we want to plan to fix the problem for 50 years with a fair chance of having to worry about it again in 30-35 years, I guess that's an option.

Or we can take this opportunity to do a wholesale fix and theoretically solve the problem for our < 18 children.


EDIT: it may have been tossed out there but I don't remember reading about Dems or GOP trying to reduce the fix from 75 to (let's say) 50 years. I'm going to assume there's probably a good actuarial and/or political reason for that. But I may well be wrong.

I have no clue what the line should be but this seems like a reasonable thought from the co-founder of Home Depot.

Programs for the poor turn into poor programs.

The only reason that SS has managed to survive is that middle and upperclass people have a stake in it.

If giving a billionaire $3,500/month means that the program continues to exist, I'm OK with that.

You can't make SS sustainable because as soon as you do the GOP will spend it on tax cuts. That's what happened in 2000 with the Bush tax cuts and Gore calling for a lock box.

I don't care about the Home Depot guy getting payments. It's such a minuscule amount of Social Security that it'd probably cost more to implement a system that has to look at your income or net worth and change payouts every year.

The solution has always been to remove the social security cap and to tax capital gains. Likely solves the problem right away.

It would be tough but if I have a net worth of more than $7 billion, I feel I would forgo my monthly payments and whatever I money I put into the system to keep it sustainable. That mindset is probably why I don't have a net worth of $7 billion.

Christie just destroyed Ramaswamy.

He did work Vivek over but Haley is incredibly dumb.

She had a rough night. DeSantis probably came out of this one the best, which is stunning.

Christie seems to be trying to set Haley up when he drops out and she fumbled the ball tonight.

Genuinely laughed out loud at her TikTok riff.

Trump up 32 in the gold standard of Iowa polling.

dola


Anybody willing to vote for this guy is a threat to American ideals.

I wonder if Steve King would like to toss his name in for VP? The shoe fits.

Seeing some excitement because in the latest NH poll Haley is only down by... 15.

lol Trump has already won.

What's funny is if the Republicans run Haley, November turns into a red tsunami. Instead, they'll go with Trump and it'll again be a narrow election.

Yes and no. If Trump were a normal politician, I'd agree, but if Haley were somehow the nominee Trump would eventually go all in on sabotaging her. It's hard to know how that would play out, but I don't think it's crazy to think Trump could keep a lot of GOP voters at home.

Plus, all those white supremacists voting for Haley seems a bit unlikely.

Still not sure which way I'm leaning in 2024... Biden is kinda old

I just want one of these non-Christie candidates to actually attack the front runner. It’s insane. They’re all running for a spot in the cabinet.

They're all hoping something like Colorado become widespread or one of the cases eliminates him but no one will actually use those as issues to attack.

It's the dumbest and most pointless primary.

I want Haley & Christie to work together and combine votes. Promise Christie a cabinet post of something.

I think that's illegal

It is, but pretty commonly done. You can't directly promise anything, you just strongly suggest.

I also wonder what the life insurance companies would estimate as his chances of dying in the next year.

One of them is openly contributing to a genocide.

Or he ends up in jail. The D.C. trial should be over by the election.

And the other is totally for it as well. Not to mention ending Democracy.

Democrats don't actually believe "the end of democracy" stuff. Just a scare tactic so people can vote for the guy who didn't do shit for them.

He is openly saying he is going to be a dictator. As for Israel, he moved the American embassy to Jerusalem in violation of international law and guaranteed a Unified Jerusalem as the Israeli capital. He has also said that Israel should be allowed to expanded the settlements in the West Bank. If you claim to support a free Palestine, then voting for Trump is great guarantee that it will never happen. He is after all "Israel's greatest friend" by his own words.

He passed infrastructure, climate, COVID relief, ended the war in Afghanistan, basically stopped drone strikes, some student loan cancellation, some gun control...

But, sure, nothing. Leftists still saying there's no difference between parties aren't arguing in good faith. You can be sure that the left will have even less influence going forward. There's no point in trying to work with people that complain no matter what happens.

With a 51-50 Senate no less.

Biden supports all those things regarding Israel as well.

Guess you can always waste your vote on Cornell West and let the chips fall where they may.

The 2024 matchup, much like the 2020 matchup is as bad as we have ever been given as voters, but the ramifications of electing Trump for my grandkids 20 years down the road is not something I want to think about.

I have dual citizenship so I can easily immigrate to a nice, sane country in Europe down the road, not as easy for them.

That was my thought to,but have you seen Europe lately?

Moreso if NATO is disbanded.

Wasn't this the same philosophy on voting for Trump because he'd never win.

It's really a binary choice here, you either want Biden and sanity or Trump and death.

Yeah, we were just over there last month. Still some nice places to shoot for. Budapest is a beautiful, affordable city that is an under the radar expat haven.

Apulia region in Italy, Portugal, though that is becoming too trendy and Austria are also options.

Austria is pricey. What country of origin is your due citizenship or is it EU total?

I heard Portugal is ending their golden passport program. I have Italian heritage. My daughter has talked about buying a passport from like a place like Monaco.

British, and worst case scenario England is also an option, as I have family there. I hadn't heard that about Portugal, but it makes sense as popular as it has become in the last 5-6 years.

We have a nephew in Germany as well and he loves it there.

Ended emergency SNAP benefits, killed Medicaid continuous enrollment, and ended the student loan repayment pause. Didn't extend the child tax credit, earned income tax credit, WIC, and stripped free school lunches. Poorer people actually had better social programs under Trump.

The infrastructure bill was gutted before it got signed into law and includes a big tax break for the rich (plus free handouts to big businesses) that make up a huge portion of the cost. Splitting the bill from reconciliation crushed any leverage Biden had but that was likely intentional on his part.

And the climate bill which increases fossil fuel production on federal lands and waters. Not to mention subsidizing a bunch of large businesses with tax credits.

The Afghanistan stuff is genuinely good. Best foreign policy decision in decades. Shame about the genocide in Gaza and the hundreds of billions we'll end up spending on a deadend war in Ukraine.

No, I'm saying Democrats either don't think democracy is in jeopardy or don't care. Don't let them play you with that dumb argument.

I think sanity would be picking a younger candidate that people actually like.

Crazy how the GOP had nothing to do with any of this.

Supporting Biden in the last election meant supporting him in this one if he decided to run again. Those were one and the same decision for all practical purposes.

no he doesn't. That is just flat lying. He is for a Two State solution (Trump has said Palestinians can never be trusted with their own state), condemns West Bank expansion. He has stated any two state solution would require the withdrawal of settlements on the West Bank and include a Palestinian capital in East Jerusalem. To pretend the two are the same is just stupid.

I will say this, Biden is not for the death of Israeli Jews like the Democratic Socialist that celebrated the rape and murders of women and children on October 7th. So I get why you are against him.

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You mean the one in Hungary? The country led by Viktor Orban? That Budapest?

Perhaps one of the best foreign policy positions I can think of in Trump's folder.
Accurate AND honest about it.

Be honest, Jon, how many populaces do you personally feel can be trusted with their own state?

I'm a registered Democrat and I think that if Trump wins in 2024 that will be the last free election we have in this country. Already in some red states the 2024 election won't be exactly "free".


For like the millionth time, the election will be won by swing voters in like 4-6 states like Michigan & North Carolina. Instead of making sweeping generalizations, who me the candidate who does better in those states than Biden.

A "younger candidate that people actually like" might goose the results in MA or CA, but that means nothing in our system.

Actions speak louder than words. He can say he wants a two-state solution and withdrawal from illegal settlements. Just like he says he cares about innocent civilians dying. He has the power to make these things happen but refuses.

Nothing would change in regards to Israel with Trump in power.

Save this lame shit for your boomer friends on Facebook. Now that people can actually see videos, actually hear from reporters on the ground, the propaganda doesn't work.

There is one side committing genocide. One side has run an apartheid state for decades. One side operates a giant concentration camp. One side illegally settling on stolen land. One side actively committing genocide.

What Hamas has done is reprehensible. It still compares into the war crimes and atrocities being committed on a daily basis from Israel.

So democracy is at stake (just ignore 2000) and the best possible option to save it is a wildly unpopular 82-year-old man? I feel like if democracy was going to end, wouldn't you have made a better effort to put up a better candidate?


Seems like this strategy is doing great. Glad the future of democracy rests with him.

Access to this page has been denied

Yeah, you ever been there?

And I know how he is, it's not the leader that matters to me, it's what his followers do and I would take him over Trump 8 days of the week.

These your friends, Rainmaker?https://www.politico.com/news/2023/1...srael-00120533
It is not some boomer Facebook thing, this was the good old Democrat Socialist showing their true colors. They have no problem with the murder and rape of women and children as long as they are Jewish.


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You can oppose two things at the same time. I oppose Hamas and the Israeli government. You have to use a strawman that opposing Israel means you support Hamas because it's impossible to defend what Israel is doing. Anyone with a conscience would oppose the actions of both.

I don't support terrorists and I don't support genocidal ethnostates. You can't say the same thing.

You must vote for the guy who is apparently powerless to do anything for you. It's a great political pitch.

I oppose the war. I have from the very beginning. I just also oppose the murder of innocent Jews as well. I don't like you paint Jews as blooddrinkers glorying in the death of Palestinian babies. Both sides have committed atrocities. Both sides have a right to exist without the fear of genocide. That is something you can't say.

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Rainmaker, as opposed to supporting a dictator? Because unless you are for a dictator then anyone elected has to comprise and recognize that you will never get everything you want.

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Who is committing most of the atrocities and perpetuating genocide? What are the number of innocent civilians killed since not just October 7th, but the past few decades?

And I fully agree. Both sides have a right to exist. That's not the current position of our government and not what our tax dollars are supporting.

You can't pretend this is an incredibly important election that determines the future of our country while simultaneously arguing that the President can't really do all that much. The President either has immense power or they don't. Make up your mind.

Some things is not the same as no things. You refuse to accept that anything has been done. There's really no point in even trying to placate the left because they can't see that a half-full glass isn't empty.

At least with Trump, you'll have plenty to complain about, so there's that.

You don't see the difference between voting for a person who works within the confines of the system and one who intends to destroy the system? You can't be that dense.

On the subject of young candidates that people like, what evidence do we have that is even a thing that exists for presidential elections?

We have a pretty long track record now as a country of voting for older candidates even when younger alternatives are available. One of my conclusions from that is that voters don't actually want younger presidents.

Except for Biden, all modern Democratic Presidents have been below the median age for US Presidents when first elected.

Except for Bush 2, all modern Republican Presidents have been above the median age.

I'd say there's a pretty long track record that Republicans prefer older candidates and Democrats prefer younger.

Well if the guy spending billions on war crimes and genocide is doing it within the confines of the system, that changes everything.

The same billions the other guy would send. You know what is really ridiculous? Biden's position on Israel hasn't changed. He was pro-Israel in 2020 when the young people voted for him. His position has always been consistent. What changed was the vast majority of young voters didn't know what a Palestinian was until October when a group of them committed heinous crimes against Jewish people. Now it is the only cause that means anything. Killing Jews and winning friends isn't a good look.