I mean, the game changes significantly based on EF's alignment.

If he's scum, JAG looks really bad for not switching his vote yesterDay and then starting toDay with a soft push for EF's lynch. Path, Shoveler and Vaimes also look really good for their placement on the EF wagon.

If he's town, then we can guess that scum were fairly evenly distributed across the wagons, and probably didn't switch a lot. I'd be willing to lynch Shoveler in that case (as I have town reads independent of their votes on Vaimes and Path), but I absolutely won't lynch him without a town flip from EF.

...

Yes.

So, you believe that me being bloodthirsty is not alignment indicative for me.

If Eagle was a wolf he wouldn't believe Brit was the seer - after last game's debacle you'd think he'd reveal as a seer at some stage down the stretch. And the kill doesn't really make Eagle look good if anything the opposite. I just can't believe that wolf-Eagle would put that order in. Possibly if he thought a tie was going to kill him and a villager and he knew it was going to be a tie. But how could he?

That said I'm getting some of what you're saying and Eagle tying the vote is a worse village play than what Chief has been calling Vaimes and you out for. His early reaction today looks wolfy before he blows up but I can't see him making that kill.

I could get behind a Shoveler vote just from what I've seen. I don't want to vote font because if she is good she is so valuable -- but what she is choosing to question is giving me pause.

And where is JAG?

Path, explain why you think the EF situation will be resolved.

Time's up for me

unvote Raven
Vote Shoveler

Best of a fairly crap bunch. I'm almost tempted to leave my vote where it is.

I would re-read what I wrote there more closely. I didn't say who attacked him before or when it happened. I was generally referring to the constancy of your attack on him in this game AND his Day One targeting in the last game, which he referenced, in which he was a Day One lynch as a seer.

The man has dealt with quite a lot of attacking. It was not specific to you outside of this game. I have no idea what sort of history you have with EF (nor is it relevant, really).

Did you ask him? I don't know where EF's mind was at. As I noted, he was clearly quite emotional and frustrated and irrational. He seemed to actually hope if he was going to have to die, that at least maybe someone else would die too who might actually be a wolf, and thus provide us with voting history.

Clearly he felt his own death would not provide us with much.

...

He already told us where his mind was at. I actually quoted the post in my case.

Ironic.

Chief, are you going to do anything actually helpful toDay?

Finally! This is the sort of approach that I could see rationalizing an EF lynch. His death provides us with clarity on that first vote.

That is completely logical to me and a reason to vote for EF, as opposed to "I am getting a scum read, vote EF, vote EF, vote EF".

All that said, what has transpired since still has me reading him as a villager, so I would view a lynch on EF right now as a wasted exercise. I would prefer the seer scan him and get us info on his allegiance at some point going forward (when it is safer to do so).

Ok, the seer strategy makes no sense.

Right now, we know that EF is the least likely person to have been Seer scanned alive. Literally anyone else we go for could have been scanned town, and going after them risks outing the seer or lynching a townie. Having a seer scan EF later as a way to resolve the issue means the seer is not scanning someone else.

Either you want think EF is scum or you do not. Don't depend on the seer to take care of it.

To address Chief specifically, you have once again failed to give your reasoning for thinking EF is town. This is hypocritical, after you attacked me for not giving reasoning (when I have) and fits in the pattern of you attacking people for doing useful things while doing nothing useful yourself.

I agree with you, Narc, that in a very tangible sense (EF makes decision===>bad result for the village) that EF's move was a poor one for the village, in that he either gets no one killed (we lose information) or he gets at least one villager killed besides himself. A wolf would tie the game to hopefully take someone with him.

The problem is, a villager would make a similar decision. If a villager EF is about to be lynched, the villager EF sees that a villager is about to be lynched. So at least by tying it up, he gets a chance to maybe take out a wolf instead or save his villager self.

It's a very iffy decision and only adds to us needing to know EF's allegiance.

All that said, I think there is very real negatives in the strategies employed by Vaimes and font that in the long run are much more negative than the basic decision EF made.

No, probably not. And that won't work with me. I don't give enough of a crap to rise to your baiting. It's a game.

I'm just trying to cut through the disinformation and noise you are throwing out there to find a wolf.

I'm not voting EF tonight, for previous reasons stated.
I could be possibly swayed to switch to Shoveler or Vaimes if a convincing argument was presented.

For now will go with timmae based on Path's potential tell since he has played with him as a wolf last game, and timmae is generally far more active (and often questions anyone that is not). Seems out of character for him.

vote timmae

I'd also like to hear more from timmae

My read on EF is that he is a villager, because of how he responded to your attacks. I believe that reaction is real and not faked. EF is a very good wolf, but I do not think he would fake what he did.

For that reason, I do not believe that actions that will lynch him are helpful to the village. All we do is lynch a villager and uncover that we pretty much know nothing from our Day One lynch.

I would rather have the seer scan him tonight and keep EF alive as a cleared player.

Had you not gone after him so hard to trigger this reaction, I might be right behind looking to lynch him. I even mentioned at times wanting to lynch EF for meta reasons (not revealing as the seer last game).

As of Post 523

Shoveler 3-EagleFan(360), Narcizo(510), The Jackal(520)
EagleFan 2-Fontisian(355), Jag(356)
Timmae 2-Path(361), Raven(521)
Fontisian 1-Grover(462)
Vaimes 1-Autumn(501)

Nightfall 1-EagleFan(360)

Do I get an explanation?

There are probably very real reasons for their lack of posting, but I would love to get more feedback from JAG, Autumn and The Jackal.

These are all frighteningly good players who have not participated as much, and it concerns me that I have no real read on them at all.

I know The Jackal has OOG reasons limiting him, and that is probably the case with Autumn and JAG, too. So I am not trying to say, "Hey, look, wolves."

Just saying, wow, those are some great players we haven't seen much of.

:popcorn:

I really have been in meetings almost all day, in my last one now .. I'll have more to say later I promise

Friggin hate meetings

unvote fontisian
vote timmae

Still wary on font, but no word from timmae is strange. Let's put some pressure on him.

Sorry for not being around much, I finished page 9 and have to go again, but Chief and Raven made some fairly compelling points re: EF, so I may revisit that vote.

Checking in throughout the day... I did post earlier. I am finding the chief/font conversations interesting. Not necessarily thinking either is evil at this point. Need to reread things tonight when I get home. Probably around 8pm cst. Don't waste your time voting for me, I've claimed already.

I'll decide what's a waste of my time thank you very much

hint: this meeting

but yes timmae, that last line is and/or should be disregarded by everyone

You claimed as a vanilla villager, correct?

Forgive me for not having complete faith in that, when we're all posing as the same to start the game.

Guys, I am pretty sure timmae is joking (and I thought it was pretty funny).

My question, then, is why unvote? Why make the tie a surprise end of day thing? Surely, the actual towny thing to do is to vote the other person up for a lynch and then try to convince people to vote with you. Or, if you're too frustrated to convince people, at least be upfront and honest about the vote totals. The way I see, EF tried to slip in a tie and only unvoted in the hope that it would help confuse the town. That is not a town action.

I listened to your complaints about Vaimes, and found that the only one making poor decisions in the long run was you. I've now listened to your complaints about me and again have found them to be worthless and harmful. Similarly, your idea that someone should be lynched for bad play in a previous game is horrific and unfair to the person. Do you have any further points to make?

Ok. Why do you believe it is real?

Moving on, we are not lynching Shoveler toDay, because he is likely town if EF is scum.

maaaaybe

Partially trying to see what happens, but not a lot of activity at the moment.

Everyone is so serious around here.

I reread from the beginning and I am back to my gut read on autumn D1. Some initial fluff posts. Throwing his vote around a bit. Jumping to and fro. Maybe someone can tell me if that is typical autumn or not. Not sure on his meta rep. Then an easy vote for vaimes. Not much pressure being applied to anyone off the radar. And yes, I see the irony in voting for the guy because of a joke post. :p

vote autumn

I agree that it's unlikely that EF/shoveler are on the same side if one is a wolf

I feel like there's enough questions about EF (move at the deadline, nightfall desperation stinky cologne) combined with knowing his allegiance benefitting us in the vote analysis.

Brit certainly was a strange target, but not sure I want to use that in a linear assumption that the wolf team doesn't have any vets.

To follow-up on that thought - brit could have been a target by the wolves as someone they thought the seer might scan N1, being in the vote and a usually strong contributor as a villager

I read EF's exasperation as legit with my knowledge of what went down last game. It's possible he could be a bit theatrical on purpose but I didn't take it as evil!EF.

I'm definitely not discounting EF as a wolf. I'm not sure it would have been necessary for him to come out that desperately, although if he is a wolf.. it's kinda workin.

Especially if there's a cunning wolf in the game.

I don't have any strong feelings like I did last game with Zinto - heck my strongest feeling yesterday was cheeki and that didn't turn out well.

It's mildly interesting that there was nothing going on with Autumn after Raven threw a second vote on. I know it was questioned at that point as spreading the vote too much, but still interesting.

No doubt, but wouldn't cunning be explained as part of team rocket? Or no?

I'm leaving my vote on timmae for better or worse. (sorry timmae!)

I'll try and get on before the deadline, but my bowling may not allow that.

Maybe - I guess this was intended on being a vanilla game, so there might not be many roles.

Are you referring to yesterday?

Yes

No worries... I have you, autumn and grover down as possible teammates right now anyways. ;)

Just trying to see if I can identify any points in the vote yesterday when it seemed like reactive moves were being made, or trends away from specific people.

TWO GROVERS?!

So you are saying if EF is town then Shoveler is probably scum? (see, I can be hip to new lingo)

For those that are assuming EF good, seems like we'd want to look at people who didn't move their vote much or at all

He seems to be the scummiest on the EF wagon, yeah.

You still haven't explained how the EF situation be resolved if we don't lynch him?

Actually I see you said something very much like that last page.

UNVOTE TIMMAE
VOTE SHOVELER

When did I multiply!

Is the other me evil, or just wicked in nature?

LOL, he's twice as bad. Double kill werewolf, that'd be something.

I meant raven. You guys are the three stooges for now.

I parked my initial d1 vote on Autumn 7 or 8 hours before deadline. Not sure why my vote looks significant to you there, but you're welcome to go back and repost voting logs. I pointed out the error with Narc's voting log, but no one has took on the task of trying to fix it and repost. (2 pages back or so)

As of Post 566

Shoveler 3-EagleFan(360), Narcizo(510), Path(563)
EagleFan 2-Fontisian(355), Jag(356)
Timmae 2- Raven(521), Grover(530)
Autumn 2-Timmae(542), The Jackal(546)
Vaimes 1-Autumn(501)


Nightfall 1-EagleFan(360)

Quick post. I have not been well today (the past few days to be honest) and knew that I wasn't going to be very active today at all. Didn't want to say that yesterday as I thought I was going to pretty much be out all day (sent Z and apology for that as I don't like the idea of missing a lot of time in these games, if it can be avoided). Luckily I am vanilla and meaningless as far as the village goes.

As for my move last night. I was not going to do it but then cheek made the move so I took a shot. Figured the chances are that I was still going to end up being lynched. My guess at that point was that the other two were either vanilla or at least one wolf.

Lynching me ends this font BS and lets everyone move on, hence the nightfall. Additionally, the only person I am getting a wolf read on is Shoveler so I have no second thought about leaving my vote there.

If I was a wolf, I tie it up and we take out either JAG or Narc. No way I would want to clear up day one for the village, let the village waste time trying to figure out what it all meant.

I will gladly fall on my sword but think that Shoveler is the way to go today.

YES I was goading font into nightfall. A villager that is SO CERTAIN would have no problem voting nightfall, a wolf on the other hand wouldn't want their vote to be locked.

Okay, last post for a little while. What I would like to see, in order of preference:

Shoveler lynch
Burn the witch
Let me fall on my sword

Ok.

Unvote
Vote Shoveler.

Pretty sure nightfall votes are locked, not lynch votes.

Wait, we have witches in this roleset also?! :p

Get better EF... we'll see you back here soon. Unless you get lynched or NK'd. Then see ya next game!

To be clear, I was mentioning that as looking at Autumn, not you. I know it was early, and probably grasping at straws.

I felt it was pretty clear he was frustrated when he unvoted. You're trying to bring rationality to the decisions of a frustrated and emotional individual. I think it is a mistake to presume EF was thinking too clearly at that point.




I am not the one making a player so frustrated he votes nightfall at the start of the day. I am not introducing confusion into the village with a false claim. I am not ignoring all other perspectives just to satisfy my conviction--based on a whim or a hunch at the start of Day One.

If I am making harmful decisions, I shudder to think what level of harm you are doing.




Have you never played on Day One before? It's a meta vote to start the game, where everyone but you (apparently) has no information. I (and many others here) often make pointless, meta votes to get a vote going, and then as the day progresses and we start to consolidate, then I flip to a more proper candidate based on the discussion in play and my gut feel (because once again, I don't have information on Day One).

I believe you know this and are using an argumentative technique to attempt to make me look bad. I give this group of players far more credit than you, though, and believe they will see through it.




Not that you will accept, clearly.




Because I have played WW with EagleFan for several years now. And I have seen any number of emotional outbursts and breakdowns in similar situations with others. His reactions are not unfamiliar to me.

While this seems improbable to me, I like the thinking here, in that it is a different possibility I had not considered.

Zinto may have his own rules for this one, but Nightfall votes also lock down the lynch vote of that player at the time he makes the Nightfall vote.

FTR, I did not see EF come back and expound on his actions last night before responding to font's post above.

I don't see anything in there to change my perspective on things (but I felt it looks weird that my post addresses EF without acknowledging that last post).

Well apparently everyone still has that picture of Dog the bounty hunter in their minds from EF's game. Yeah that guy is scummy, I agree completely.

However, back to this game.

I guess I look bad because I moved my vote off of cheeki when he had a 6 to 4 lead over brit. My understanding was a close race to the finish would reveal more information, guess I was mistaken. Hell I'm starting to draw fire and I didn't tie the damn vote up at the end. Still dont have a clue about the piggyback vote comment. Are you trying to say I am in league with Autumn since he removed a vote off of cheeki minutes before I did?

This will most likely not ease your mind, but here goes.

Vote: Autumn

As of Post 579

Shoveler 4-EagleFan(360), Narcizo(510), Path(563), Fontisian(571)
Autumn 3-Timmae(542), The Jackal(546), Shoveler(579)
Timmae 2- Raven(521), Grover(530)
EagleFan 1- Jag(356)
Vaimes 1-Autumn(501)


Nightfall 1-EagleFan(360)

Good to know, Zinto

I said I was willing to change my vote to Vaimes or Shoveler if a good argument was presented.

Instead, path (who claimed to have a tell on timmae) moves off of timmae and on to Shoveler with no explanation, when timmae starts getting some traction. This is very curious, and they are split among the two top vote getters.

font wants to lynch EF, but then decides to vote with EF? It's clear EF and Shoveler are not aligned. But if she is convinced EF is wolf, why move off of him?

Vaimes has been gone all day, after a taking a lot of attention yesterday. He also pretty much held onto font's coattails yesterday.

So let's see where this takes us...

unvote timmae
vote Vaimes

Well, lucky me. I was busy until now with kids, and still watching them. I just caught up (except for some of the CR/Font posts which I have started to skim past). My vote is on Vaimes becuase looking back through posts this noon I didn't like his more than most, and noticed he hadn't posted at all today. Looks like he still hasn't (?) so I will move my vote (obviously I need to anyway) but I am suspicious there and will return to him until I start seeing something better from him.

Basically he, Shoveler and Raven are my bad reads right now. Seemed like the other two were getting some heat so I focused on vaimes with my vote this morning, but I would vote either of those two. I suspect any of them would possibly target Britrock based on previous games, and their posts and votes haven't convinced me other wise. I'll check the vote count and see where to go.

I want to see more action from Autumn, who can be one of the more dangerous wolves around.

I don't believe Autumn is more suspicious than Shoveler at the moment, but it is more dangerous to not push him.

Plus, as I type this post, he is one vote behind Shoveler, and a close vote always gives us more information.

VOTE AUTUMN

Hi.

Tuesdays are kinda busy for me, I won't be free until 9-ish.

Funny crosspost. Glad for company on Vaimes, but unless he shows up I'm not going to lynch an absent dude. So I'll move to Shoveler and get myself out of some hot water.

unvote vaimes
vote shoveler

lots nad lots of crossposting, lol

gotta get my kid, brb

lol... great timing.

I like that Autumn is here, but to my thinking, I would still like to keep the pressure on him and see what comes up between he and Shoveler (and timmae, if that's how it goes).

I am working tonight, so I am likely to not be available until after the deadline.

Just for the record, I think there is a possible tell there, I can't say for sure one way or the other but it's enough that timmae is not on my trust list right now.

But I'm not totally comfortable with lynching timmae just on a hunch when there are a number of folks (myself included) who are also suspicious of Shoveler and I think that case is a little more solid.

BTW, leaving soon and have to get a couple things done after work. I'll be back by 6:30 Pacific or so and will try to keep track via phone.

I must say I find it a bit out of character for Chief to leave a not so serious vote on me when he's going out and I'm close to the lead.

Looking back at Timmae, I feel pretty good about him. I'd rather those voters decide between me and Shoveler if they feel the need.

As of Post 595

Shoveler 5-EagleFan(360), Narcizo(510), Path(563), Fontisian(571), Autumn(587)
Autumn 4-Timmae(542), The Jackal(546), Shoveler(579), Chief Rum(585)
Timmae 1- Grover(530)
EagleFan 1- Jag(356)
Vaimes 1- Raven (583)


Nightfall 1-EagleFan(360)

I still don't see a case being made for any of the candidates, so screw it. Since I may not be back before deadline, let's tie it up and see what happens.

unvote Vaimes
vote Autumn

Hmm this run on Autumn is also interesting

My router just went out so gonna have to keep up on my phone

Hm. More of my townreads are on Shoveler.

Uh. Are we trying to keep it tied, or. Because otherwise I'm voting Shoveler.