Seriously. Jefferson is a young, all-star caliber player.

the Gasol trade was a fucking joke that Stern allowed so that Kobe could get a ring and he could rekindle the "Lakers-Celtics" rivalry.

Yeah, I don't know how anyone can say the Wolves trade was worse. Al Jefferson was tearing it up before the injury.

not as good as Jefferson.

Bynum hasn't shown he can stay healthy and produce. Odom is older.

C's deal had Jefferson and also Ryan Gomes, who is playing very well for Minny (and played well for the C's also).

Upon rereading, I think I might have confused the discussion. I thought that MrBug was claiming the Garnett trade was a worse rip-off than the Gasol trade (not a rumored Laker-Garnett trade).

No one knows. The Wolves didn't accept the offer. :)

This deal isn't being done now, it was being done two years and change ago now. Bynum hadn't yet sustained any injuries; he was just a kid with a lot of potential who as generally asked for by just about everyone. Odom's value has actually probably gone up since then, as he has become a little more consistent now with less nightly pressure on him to perform.

Also, at that point in time, neither Bynum nor Odom were signed to extensions, but both were two seasons from even a shot at free agency.

I think Jefferson is a terrific player, and he is the best of the three now, and might be the best of the three in the long run.

That said, Jefferson by himself wasn't worth anywhere near as much as a Bynum-Odom package. I don't know if Gomes as he was valued then, a pick that became Brewer and the mish-mash of other parts would make up the difference or not.

Personally, I don't much subscribe to the McHale took the Celtics' offer over the Lakers' offer over personal loyalties theory. I actually think the Wolves came back with Odom and Bynum, and it was the Lakers that balked at that, from what I recall of the rumors.

IMO, the Wolves took the best offer they had on the table, and it's hard to say they did a "favorite" deal when they got a terrific player like Jefferson.

While I still would take Jefferson over Bynum/Odom, I'm pretty convinced that this discussion was comparing Gasol's deal to Garnett's.

No...it was the rumored deal. Wolves picked Boston over the Lakers. What trade did the Griz turn down in favor of the Lakers? No one else offered anything for Pau Gasol

And Pau's bro is one of the best young Cs in the league.

Oh, then i misunderstood too.

First off, I can factually tell you that isn't true. The Grizz had multiple offers for Gasol, I know the exact particulars of one such offer. (and no, I can't tell it, but you can probably figure out which team it was from)

Second off, even if I couldn't tell you there were other offers out there, are you seriously going to insinuate that the Lakers were the knights in shining armor for the Grizz and offered something for a 7 foot, 26 year old all star power forward when nobody else would? Are you REALLY going to try to push that garbage through?

The Lakers gave up Kwame (garbage), Crittean (he was considered nothing more than a prospect at the time, useless), Aaron McKie (who was working as an unpaid assistent coach for Philly at the time he was signed to a contract on the day of the trade so it would work under the cap), two first round picks (which were next to worthless) and Marc Gasol. (who at the time was an undersized kid that most people thought wouldn't even make the league) he turned into a great player, yippeee. . . it was still a garbage trade.

It was a pure, 100% salary dump and it wouldn't have been allowed if it were any team other than the Lakers getting Gasol.

Didn't mean to start a debate about it. it's something that just doesn't sit well with me even to this day. I cannot wait until Stern is gone from the league.

I keep hearing people say this, and cannot believe it.

The NBA allows trades that are pure salary dumps. Can anyone name a single instance where a trade was disallowed because it was a salary dump? This isn't even the first time a retired player was signed just to have a salary available to work under the cap.

Heck, Shaq this past offseason was a salary dump. I guess it can only happen if its to the Lakers OR the Cavs.

There are lots of examples of trades that were salary dumps that were allowed to happen. I cannot think of a single example of a trade that was disallowed by the league office WHICH MET THE SALARY CAP rules because they judged it was unfair in value of players or impact to the league.

The Grizz owner said it was a pure salary dump. The Lakers actually offered Odom originally as part of the deal and they didn't want him because of his contract.

But... as has been pointed out, when did the league ever not allow a salary dump trade?

Bah I just don't want Gasol on the Lakers. ;)

salary dump trades make the nba less fun and result in less parity

Not just the NBA, has this happened in ANY league in the last few decades?

I think really, the last thing the league offices need to do is micro-manage trades. Can you imagine the resulting conspiracy talk (the commissioner letting one trade through but not another)? I think if it's legal under the cap rules, you have to let it happen. Let the heat go to the owner/gm.

Sheed from Atlanta to Detroit was a nice little "fuck you" to competitive balance IIRC.

When you start signing retired players to make a trade work under the cap, it's a garbage trade. That single trade will destroy the competitive balance of the Western Conference for the next 5-8 years. It should never have been allowed to happen.

The Suns/Shaq experiment didn't work out. Shaq is a 37 year old making over 21 million dollars. A salary dump there is appropriate. A salary dump of an all star 7 footer in the prime of his career is "slightly" different. Like I said, no problem. TR Dunn is an assistant with the Rockets, Alex English is an assistant with the Raptors. I think the Nuggets should sign both TR and Alex to contracts and trade them away for Shane Battier and Chris Bosh.

Oh. . . they created a rule now to prevent that sort of thing. . . because Stern and the powers that be knew they should stop total farces from happening. . . only problem is he didn't step up for the good of the league when it happened and halted the BS. He let that one last big trade go through.

That's where I'm in the wrong though and I know it. The good of the league is to have the Lakers as an elite team. It's not the competitive way to go about it, but it's best for the NBA as a whole. Stern allowed Kings/Lakers game 6 to happen without retribution to anyone. He was damned well not going to get in the middle of a trade to swing the balance of power back to LA either.

Some trades are clearly garbage, but the proper response to them is to make them illegal (or ideally, make them illegal beforehand). Make rules that apply to everybody uniformly.

Stern can't be in a position where he's expected to evaluate the fairness of trades on a case by case basis. That would be absolute insanity, and it would damage the perceived integrity of the league far more than a bad trade does.

Really? Id take Bynum by himself over Jefferson. Jefferson is a good rebounder and scorer but his defense is average at best. Bynum would put up the same numbers as Jefferson and be a beast in the middle IMO. Jefferson has inflated numbers due to playing on a team with no other weapons.

The trade turned out as a win/win for the Lakers.

They got a younger better player than KG at this point of his career without have to give up anything. Athough Im sure the Celts arent complaining much either.

The NBA is more star driven than any other league and it just shows what 2/3 stars on the same team can do.

Im still mad that McHale had 12 years to find a star around KG and was unable to do it. Pathetic.

What's the rule?

:lol::lol::lol:

Take it from someone that watches Jefferson on a consistent basis. Over rated.

You guys do realize that if the situation presents itself, the Cavs will sign and trade wally at some point this year. He made 14M last year so it is possible that basically any player in play could be headed to Cleveland. If it comes down to the Raps being far out of contention in February I could see Bosh and a crap contract going to cleveland for JJ, Picks and wally. Just as a example of course.

Why would someone trade someone great in their last year for someone crappy in their last year? And the Cavs are too good for the picks to be worth something.

I guess maybe if a team is convinced it has no chance at the playoffs or keeping its star player and also happens to really love Hickson's potential, well, then maybe. But other than that, what would be the point?

It would make more sense if Wally was shipped away for a very good player with a lot of time left on his contract. That's a deal a team would be inclined to do.

Sure. I guess my main point was that wally will get overpaid this year to facilitate the Cavs getting s player for 10 cents on the dollar.

I'd love to see where Heisley was quoted saying that. Much was made of the trade by management here regarding the gaining of Marc Gasol, and the two 1st rounders.

I wasn't trying to comment on whether or not the league should have allowed that, or any, trade.

I was just trying to disabuse the ridiculous notion that "if it wasn't the Lakers, this trade would never have been allowed" The league has very specific rules for trades, and if a submitted trade meets them, the league does not overrule them. Sure, signing people off the street to create a matching salary is patently ridiculous, but it was legal, and other teams had done it before the Gasol trade. It would have been allowed regardless of who the principals were.

EDIT: Oh yeah, and while this was clearly an attempt to shed salary, there were other factors. Gasol was very unhappy in Memphis, starting to be a malcontent (bitching about how much he wanted out) and putting forth questionable efforts.

Pau very much needed to get out of Memphis. Becoming a malcontent and putting out questionable effort on a young team is a cardinal sin.

Just imagine if Stern reviewed all trades on a case-by-case basis, allowing some and overruling others.

Every time a deal improving large market team was allowed, and every time a deal improving a small market team was voided, the conspiracy talk would be more unbearable than it already is.

He was rather pro-Lakers until they beat the Nuggets last year in the WCF

Heisley's 'the guy making decisions'» The Commercial Appeal

There is the stuff on the Pau Gasol trade

Marc Gasol has turned out to be a very nice player, but I don't really remember him being positioned as the key to the trade in any way.

I believe it was the rights to Marc Gasol. But then again, Crittanden was supposed to be a good prospect so that ended up being a good sticking point

Huh? I'm not now and have never been a Laker "hater"

If I "hate" one team in the league, it would be the Utah Jazz. (and as you can probably guess, that has little to do with them winning a lot of championships)

As for you bug, I didn't even expect the Nuggets to get into the conference finals last year, much less win it. I predicted at the start of the series that it would be Lakers in either 5 or 7 games. (I didn't expect Denver to lay an egg at home in game 6)

I just HATE that trade. It still bothers me to this day. The competitive balance of an entire conference was destroyed for a 5-8 year period. And it's not like we didn't all know what was going to happen the second the deal was made either. Imagine a trade sending Lebron to Orlando for Brandon Bass and NOBODY else. You think anyone in the East has a chance for the next 5 years without lots of knees blowing out in Magic games? That's what this trade did.

I can't stand it and I can't stand the ridiculous notion that the Lakers were the ONLY team who offered anything for a 7 foot all star in the prime of his career. The assertation is ridiculous.

Yes, that would be an odd trade for a championship caliber team like Cleveland to trade their star away to another championship caliber team. It's not at all what happened in this case. It was a bad team dumping salary. Good luck trying to match salaries for that trade as well.

And you are correct that there were multiple offers to Memphis for Gasol and Heisley outlines his reasons pretty well in the article above on why he didn't think they fit his plan. Criticize his plan all you want. It's his plan.

Onto other things:

The Blazers had a monumental step up last night. Bayless was sensational. They badly needed to get that win with the four road games they have coming up. I think it's clear that their best lineup is Bayless, Roy, Webster, Aldridge, Pryzbilla, with Bayless and Roy splitting the ball handling duties about evenly.

In other news, Michael Beasley is developing into one hell of a player. I think people forget he's only 20 years old. I think he's an all star by the time he's 23 or 24.

Come now, I think Gasol is good, but he isn't Lebron good :)

I dont think anyone questions his offense but his defense is so bad at times they cant afford to keep him on the court. He really needs to step it up and become that 2nd good player on that team or Wade is out the door.

Thanks. The way that was spun locally was that Memphis was trying to get younger guys, Chicago didn't want to divide their core, so we went to LA. At least locally, Marc Gasol was played up as a key part of the trade (the locals had been able to see him progress through HS, etc.). Crittenden IIRC outplayed Conally, but was never really given a shot here. The extra picks were played up as a big deal for either trade bait, or additional players.

You also have to remember, Pau is very soft. He had no big in the middle that would keep the other team from muscling him around. Pau is not a good #1 player, however, he is a stellar #2 man.

He's also the best triangle player for Phil Jackson. In related news, the Lakers and Pau have almost agreed to a 3 year extension with the Lakers

i would probably mind Pau less if he'd fucking shave. He looks like a fucking doofus with the scruffy facial hair and the floppy mid-length hair.

Cant wait til they retire his jersey :)

First things first : Jonathan Bender is back in the NBA !! I was highly intrigued with him back when he entered the league but he was really injury prone and retired at like 25 (and played only 9 games the 2 years prior and 21 the year before that) in 06. Had been working on a comeback all the time with rehab and then intensified it a year ago. Now the Knicks signed him and he played last night allready and played great to top that, 9 points in 15 minutes off the bench.
Really happy for the guy, great story :)



What imo will benefit the Blazers a lot is when they get Batum back. He didn´t play a ton, but kind of stabilized things and improved a lot over the summer judging by his play for France (even with that shoulder injury being imminent allready) . Plus Fernandez is out and was hurt earlier before deciding to opt for that little surgery.
But it´s pretty clear that Blake needs to go, you can´t bring 2 PG-sized and a smallish SG (Rudy is 6´5 but a very thin 6´5) off the bench and play them decent minutes.
And yes, by now i don´t think Miller will fit but he´ll be pretty much untradeable. I maintain that it´s him being misused and Roy failing to adjust more than anything else though ...
Yesterdays win, that was on Phoenix, they simply folded in the 4th with no one able to offer relieve for captain canada. Richardson was out along with Barbosa, which is huge for a team relying solely on their perimeter guys to score and create.

Not having any solid backup-bigs will hurt them as well. I mean, Howard is ok and a great veteran, but him as your main big off the bench at this stage of his career ? Outlaw will be back, but he´s a 4 by very generous judgement ...

Really don´t get their style of play compared to their roster makeup. It´s been a bit better with Bayless getting minutes, but still with that roster (small on nearly every position) they´d need to run more and defend more agressively.



Other things of note :

-Omri Casspi with back-to-bacxk 20 point games as a starter. Clear-cut starter material. Seriously, the guy is so polished offensively allready and not half bad defensively as well aside from some timing issues :)

-Kevin Love is an amazing rebounder.

-Philly beats Boston with Iverson sitting out :lol: Elton Brand with a throwback effort : 23/8 in 26 minutes off the bench.

- Chris Paul is amazing, Last night he scored or assisted 32 of the Hornets 40 FGs :eek: Peja can still stroke that ball, albeit really nothing else at this point.

-Ariza finally with a game with good shot selcetion. His amount of 3 pointers was ridiculous the last couple of games. But then again someone has to take them. The Rockets regularly have 2,3 guys with really bad shooting nights and still win, individually and as a team they are not efficient but since every game also 2,3 guys get hot it works.

-T-Mac is worlds away from being a real contributor. But i like how he doesnßt force it at all, pushes the ball, makes the extra pass and runs the floor.

- Nowitzki and Landry with a pretty nasty collision, both players didn´t return.

Agree for the most part on him being a much better #2. But he's still one of the top 10 players in the league.

I don't know how you can say that. Al Jefferson is much better than anyone that went to Memphis in that deal. He's a perennial All-Star who was building his way up to being one of the best PF in the league. He was averaging 23 and 11 before tearing his ACL.

The Bulls offered Ben Gordon and Andres Nocioni for him the summer before that deal went down. I know the Grizzlies wanted Deng in the deal in some form though.

In any event, the trade was real fishy from the start. Wonder if there were some backroom deals in place to help get Pau to the Los Angeles market. I just can't fathom that Memphis couldn't have gotten more for a top 10 player.

I'd add the same can be said for Minnesota although I don't think the deal was bad for them. I just wouldn't be surprised if there was some prodding behind the scenes to make it happen. These are small market teams that were hurting financially. The NBA has always had a WWE element to it.

For one I was comparing him to Bynum and Oden. Secondly how could he be a perennial All-Star when he has never even made an All-Star game? Id take Bynum over Jefferson was my comment. I'm sure most people actually would. Bynum is a stud defender in which Al Jefferson is not. Jefferson is a 6 10' post player.

Stats are a poor indicator of a player especially on poor teams. All NBA teams average around 100 points and all teams average around 40-50 rebounds per game so someone has to get points and rebounds.

Devin Harris went from a 15 point a game scorer to a 21.3 by going to a poor team. Richard Jefferson has been floating around the league averaging around 20 points per game on bad teams. Now that he is on a good team he averages 13.4. Even Al Harrinton has averaged 21.5 points per game these past two years.

Lack of options=more points.

The thing is that the T-Wolves actually turned into a decent team by the middle of last season. They had a stretch where they won like 10 of 12 games and were a pretty good team from the end of December to when Jefferson got hurt (I believe over .500).

I believe Jefferson has the talent to be a perennial All-Star in this league. He's one of the best low post offensive players in the league and at the time of the trade was only 22. There just aren't a lot of guys who can score like that in the post like that in the league (can count them on one hand).

Bynum is a good player with potential, but I don't think he's as talented as Jefferson. Jefferson is a much better offensive player and in an offensive league, that's a big difference. It reminds me a bit of the Durant/Oden debate a couple years ago. Always go with the best offensive player.

I think Pau is good. But I don't think he's in the top 10. Somewhere in the high teens most likely. Regardless the griz really shit the bed on that trade.

The problem with this argument is that Jefferson is not a much better offensive player. Jefferson gets a lot more shots and scores more points however he also isnt sharing the spotlight with Kobe Bryant and Pau Gasol.

Bynum's offensive game is actually very similiar to Jeffersons. They both use the hook shot quite often as a post up move. Jefferson has a decent 12-15 from jumper which Bynum doesnt have. Bynum is close to a 60 percent career shooter which means his productivity is off the charts. It tells me they should try to get him more involved. Take a 16 point per game scorer that shoots close to 60 percent and get him 3 more shots a game and you have your 20 point per game scorer.

All things being equal Jefferson is the best player on a team that wins 20 games a year while Bynum is the 3rd best player on a team that wins 60-70 games a year.

They are both good players however IMO the Twolves would win more games with Bynum than they do with Jefferson. A defensive stopped in the middle is a great equalizer when the rest of your team is below average.

I'd disagree. I think the fact Jefferson can hit a mid-range jumper is a huge advantage. Bynum has one post move and is more of a finisher off passes and put-backs. Nothing wrong with that at all and he'll be a solid scoring threat in the league. Jefferson is also a better rebounder.

If you're judging Jefferson by this year, he's still coming back from major knee surgery. As I mentioned, when he got hurt, the T-Wolves were not a meddling 20-win team. They were actually average and some could argue above average. They had a big month of January and seemed to be coming together well. He was thoroughly dominant in a number of games and unstoppable in the paint offensively.

I've watched both a lot and I like both their games. But when the trade was made, I'd definitely take Jefferson.

I think his position and size plays a role in my ranking. He's the best offensive big man in the game. The best in the league in the post and solid in the high post. I just don't know how the best offensive big man in the league could be outside the top 10.

They were 17-33 when Jefferson got hurt, were 4-6 in their last 10, 6-8 in the month prior. They did have a 5 game winning streak against the Warriors, Bucks, Grizzlies, Thunder and Bucks in early to mid January though.

If Jeffersons mid range shot is such an advantage you might think he would be able to shoot above 50 percent? Bynum shoots close to 60 percent without a jump shot which is what it is all about, Offensive efficiency. NBA.com:

Jefferson is 35th in points per 48 minutes Bynum is 36th despite averaging 4.9 less shots per 48 minutes.

In 08-09 Jefferson averaged 1.2 points per shot attempt, Bynum averaged 1.4 points per shot attempt. Here is the efficiency rankings Bynum is 6th, Jefferson is 11th.

Jefferson is a slightly better rebounder though. He is right around 14/per 48 minutes over the past 2 years while Bynum is at 13.1/per 48.

Basically, anyway you spin the numbers per 48 minutes Bynum is clearly a better player. At the time of the trade Bynum was an unknown while Jefferson looked to be a very good player in the making so the trade at the time was fine. If we fast forward to today there is no way the Lakers trade Bynum for Jefferson.

I know what they were when he got hurt. They were 13-10 after Christmas. They had a strong month of January and were turning into a decent team.

You are using stats from this season. Jefferson is still recovering from major knee surgery. Look at last season before the knee surgery. He was 6th in the league in efficiency ahead of guys like Gasol.

To compare players using shooing percentage who play different styles and have different roles is ridiculous. I'll use your logic for determining a better offensive player.

Kendrick Perkins shoots 64% from the field. . Dwyane Wade shoots 43%. Perkins does that without a jump shot which is what it's all about, Offensive efficiency.

Perkins averages 1.63 points per shot attempt while Wade averages 1.29 points per shot attempt.

Does this mean Kendrick Perkins is a better offensive player than Wade?

Is Jefferson a point forward or how is his role much different than Bynum? They are post players that get rebounds and block shots as far as I know. The only difference is Jefferson plays more minutes and is more of the focus on offense because the Timberwolves suck.

Wade and Perkins are not comparable in anyway what so ever.

You'd be hard pressed to find 1 other person that would say the Timberwolves were an average to an above average team at ANY point last year FYI.

You can use whatever stats you want to use per 48 minutes. It doesnt really matter to me and you will see what you are missing.

well played sir :D

Before Gasol came back, Bynum was averaging 19.4 and 11.4, since we are throwing out limited samples

Thanks Bug,

Anyway Ive had enough of this discussion. I am fairly certain Bynum would be an absolute stud on the Timberwolves however we wont know this because it wont happen.

The primary difference is that Al Jefferson is a shot creator. You can feed him the ball and he will consistently get a good shot in the post.

I don't understand why being the focus of the offense is a negative. Jefferson was seeing double and triple teaming in the post on virtually every time he touched the ball. They had no other option and he was still able to get shots up and score with efficiency.

Bynum works in an offense where he gets virtually no attention from the defense. 20% of all his shots were dunks (as opposed . He benefits greatly from having Kobe, Gasol, and Odom draw the attention of the defense and leave him unguarded.

I think a lot of people would have considered the T-Wolves an average team before Jefferson's injury. They were beating bad teams and losing to good ones. They were 13-10 after Christmas. Pretty average in my book.

It is not a negative. But you cant say Jefferson is a better player just because he scores more points.

They are very similiar players in different situations. Bynum is 2 inches taller and a better defender that is why I like him as a player more than Jefferson.

In reality neither of them are good enough to be the focus of the offense however the wolves dont have a choice.

Anyway, new topic. This is all about what ifs and if thats.

not even that - it's about opinions. you like bynum over jefferson...rainmaker likes jefferson over bynum. the two of you don't necessarily need to agree on that

I can agree to this:)

On another note. Is it just me or does it seem like Deng and Noah are the only two that care about winning games for the Bulls this year?

I was expecting Rose to step up but he seems to be taking a back seat for some reason.

With that said I see Rose is having a great game tonight.

As the lone Clips fan I am aware of on this board, just want to say I'm decently optimistic about the team's play of late. Beating the Sixers tonight, they are now 12-14. Had they not blown a huge lead against the Knicks Friday night, they would have been .500.

IMO, that's pretty good, considering they haven't had even one regular season minute of Blake Griffin yet.

I still think it's possible for the Clips to achieve those preseason predictions of making the playoffs this year. That might mean first round obliteration at the hands of the Lakers, Nuggets, Spurs, Suns, etc., but, hey, baby steps.

Part of the reason why Memphis did not go for the Jefferson trade was the perception that he was soft. After Pau, they wanted to toughen the team up. They also had a good number of #2/#3 guys they were trying to develop. They wanted muscle up front, and while Odom was good, he was old for what they were looking to do.

Bulls blew a 35 point lead at home tonight to the Kings. I am done.

If Rose continues on the path he's headed down right now (slightly above average PG on a pretty bad team, showing zero leadership skills) where does he rank in terms of biggest draft disappointments of all time?

Of course there have been bigger busts - he achieved more in his rookie season than Olowokandi or Kwame ever did (and probably half the first overall picks in history). But just in terms of him being the local kid, the savior of the franchise and expected to be a true superstar who would lead the Bulls back to the league elite, things certainly don't seem to be panning out that way. Or am I completely nuts to write off a 19 year old kid in his second season in the league? He just doesn't seem to have the temperament that many other great players have.

Kings tie the all-time comeback record tonight. Wow - if this doesn't get Vinny fired I don't know what will.

I think it's still early. He shows signs of greatness at times. He has the worst coach in the NBA developing him. The team doesn't run plays and has no flow on offense. Put a veteran coach like Doug Collins in and he's an All-Star. The kid just has too much raw ability.

I agree that this isn´t entirely on him, not even close. I´l give him a pass until he gets to play under a different coach.
On the other hand Sacramento is a fun team to watch. Really deep, Evans with one hell of a rookie campaign right now (20/5/5 on a 50% team) and a lot of young, energetic players, very deep bench (as witnessed last night) and all that with Martin and Garcia out. Although at this point i am sceptical as to how they are better with Martin back and being again the focal point of the offense despite him lacking any sort of passing ability.

In other news : How about JJ Redick as the Magic´s 6th man more or less ? Seriously, he´s definitely found a role. Very impressed by how he put his head down and just worked himself into that role on the Magic.

As a Duke grad, that was the thing I was most impressed with by Redick when he was in college - he started with a great 3p shot and not a lot else. As each year progressed, he developed something new. One year, a midrange jumper - the next year the drive to the basket. And every year he improved his defense. He's a hard worker - always has been. It doesn't surprise me that he's still working to improve - he'll never be an NBA star, but he can fit well in the role he's in now.

yay redick!

I guess my biggest concern with Rose is that he's real passive. Just doesn't have that killer instinct that most of the stars have. He's not one of those guys who's going to run to the middle and demand the ball and tell everyone to get the fuck out of the way. Maybe that will change with time, but I don't know if you can really change a personality. Ultimately he may be best suited as a 2nd best player on a top team and not the leader that many in Chicago had hoped.

I really think he needs a good mentor who will push him more. Byron Scott or even Avery Johnson crossed my mind as guys who will push him and mold his mindset better. It's not an effort issue with Rose, it's an psychological one. Everytime I get a little down on him he'll do some unbelievable in a game that will make me remember why Chicago has so much promise in him. The other night against Atlanta he did a crossover that literally made the defender fall down on his ass. I've seen it a dozen times last year.

Yeah that was kind of my point. I don't doubt his talent for a minute but he's shown absolutely nothing to suggest he's a leader or wants the ball in his hands when the going gets tough. For a PG and the #1 overall pick that's not exactly ideal, especially with all the extra baggage he carries in Chicago.

Rose is doing all he possibly can to bring the Bulls back against the Knicks tonight.

Sweet jeez. The Bulls do suck this year, don't they?

Theyonly have 3 players that are worth a crap and 1 of them cant score. Rose, Deng, Noah. They also dont really have a go to scorer. Its not a proven great method to have your PG as your go to scorer.

Gibson appears he will be a decent player.

Salmons and Miller need to head back to the Kings. I believe Salmons actually hurts the team by playing he is so bad and he wont stop shooting.

They better fix this fast if they want any chance of getting Dwayne Wade.

They knew going into this season it was gonna be a rough one, though nobody would ever admit it. Which is also why I think Del Negro is going to last the full season (or close to it) -- they're just waiting till 2010, when they can get real players and a real coach.

so, the blazers with yet another injury. Now Przybilla goes down with what apears to be a long term knee injurie (read about ruptured patella tendon) .

Oden - Out
Batum - Out
Fernandez - Out
Outlaw - Out
Mills - Out
Przybilla - Out

Batum and Fernandez might be back by early February, Outlaw maybe by March.
That´s now 5 members of their supposed 9/10 man rotation.

Boston 38, Orlando 27

At the half. Is that right?

Awful offense from Orlando today.

Classy Laker fans throwing water bottles and foam fingers onto the court smh

The Lakers showed a lot of mock outrage out there today. I thought it was a soccer game, with all the pussy flopping and crying.

While I appreciate being able to watch the Lakers on Christmas, hopefully that flop of a game will get them an off day on Christmas next year

That ain't happening until Kobe retires, and even then I can't say I see it happening unless they're absolutely awful.

I'm sure no one outside of the Boston and LA areas was watching, but there was a terrific, fun game going on Staples tonight. Clips ended up pulling out a huge win for them over the Celtics on a last 0.1 sec shot (more or less) by Baron Davis.

Strangely enough, the Clips have now won two in a row at home against the Celtics.

No matter what side you were on, if you were watching you woulda said it was a fun basketball game to watch.

Vinny's gone.

It's official? I heard earlier today that it was reported he pretty much was, but the Bulls wanted to horn in on a replacement first.

Yeah, they won't announce it until they have a replacement in place but its all a matter of time now.

Looks like it's official that he's out, just not official when he's out.

Sources: Chicago Bulls wait on replacement to ax coach - ESPN Chicago

I'll be glad to see him out. I thought it was an odd choice, but hoped they knew something no one else did. The possible replacements are interesting. Out of the people who were recently NBA coaches, Byron Scott would be a good move. Seems he was able to help develop a young athletic PG who played one year in college into one of the best PGs in the league. Maybe he can do the same with Rose.

How is this in any way better than getting rid of him and having an interim coach for the meantime? If he knows he's fired, the players know he's fired and everybody else in the organization knows he's fired, what possible good could it do having him around and pretending to run the team as usual?

Do they think they will be losing leverage with all those unemployed coaches out there if they look desperate or something?

This is the Bulls. Logic doesn't work in their equation.

so the Rockets and T-Mac are aparently all but ready to part from each other... Not suprising since Adelmann never gave any indication he wanted him back, then held him out of the lineup longer than propably nescessary and then came up with the elaborate plan to sub him in after 4,5 minutes to play the rest of the first quarter and then not to return no matter what.

McGrady actually went along with it and did not bitch about it. That after doing this for 6 games he stated that he was ready for more to me is ok, certainly not iverson-stupid (we need a catchy word involving AIs name for player coming back from injury or new to teams that bitch about it after 3 or less games).

Anyways, Adelmann basically took this as an excuse to finally just admit that he doesn´t want him.

Just strange that they brought him all the way back from that injury, than let a bit of excitement built by playing him and then pull the plug. Also not even trying to boost his value by actually letting him play a bit longer.

And yes, i´m fully aware he looked very subpar out there, but even while not being a big fan of his it´s pretty obvious that 7 minutes isn´t exactly what he´s used to and that + coming back after that long a layoff (+ the whole having been seriously injured thing) isn´t exactly ideal to get back into a rythm.

I am pretty sure this is a good thing for the Rockets, but still there was a part of me wishing they´d really work him back and he´d repay the favour with good games come playoff time. Wishfull thinking i guess :(

I was looking up standings since I was curious what the Raptors' position is. I can't believe a 12-17 team is the #8 seed in the East!

Mike Brown is starting to show signs of competency. The rest of the NBA should be worried. I'm just going to chill and try to enjoy the next 6 months of basketball. Whatever happens after that is probably gonna suck.

The way the Bulls have handled this is an embarassment and I actually feel sorry for Vinny Del Negro. So reports come out that he's going to be fired and they are waiting on a replacement. People in the organization are too pussy to comment on it. Then today Gar Forman (who is just a cardboard cutout put in there so that Paxson can make the decisions because Paxson has think skin) gives vague answers that can be construed as Vinny being given a chance to turn things around to him being out the door soon.

Seriously, if you want a guy fired, fire him. Put in an interim on the staff till you have a suitable replacement. Letting a guy hang out there like a lame duck is an insult to the guy no matter how poor of a coach he is. If I was a big name head coach, there is no fucking chance in hell I look at Chicago as an option. Dealing with these low class front office people makes the organization look real bad.

Now they've won two games and looked decent (mind you it's against New Orleans and Indiana). The upcoming 7 games are not all that tough outside of one at home against Orlando. So lets say they go 5-2 in that stretch. Does that buy him more time? I just don't get what the fuck they are doing.

weird sequence at the end of the very entertaining Warriors-Celtics game a couple nights ago :



fast forward to about 4.10 to see the most amazing inbounds pass by Radmanovich :eek:

now Lamarcus Aldridge goes down with an ankle injury, what the hell is hapenning in Portland ? (edit : aparently it´s "only" a medium sprain, but still ...)

crazy game winning 3 by Anderson Varejao (!!) :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkRanEvKZus

Lebron had an absolute monster game with 48/10/6 on 16-23 shooting :eek: Was highly entertaining, glad i stayed awake and decided on this one.

Other random observations :

- Yi looks very promising for New Jersey. The guy has some serious (scoring) skill and mobility, basically looks just like advertised before the draft. Real explosive athlete, too. Injured himself early in the season, now came back a couple games ago scoring 22, 17, 29 and 22. Nets still only won 1 of those 4 and are now an epic 3-29 ...

- Memphis now almost at 50% at 15-16 and they lost 8 of their first 9 games of the season. Since then they are 14-7. That´s a playoff calibre team. And shoot me now, but Zach Randolph looks great. Not just stats (24/14 in december) but he´s also moving the ball, running the floor at times and tries to stand in the way on defense. For him that´s a giant step up.
His stats are allways there because he´s just a gifted player with great instincts on offense, though his last 6 are kind of ridiculous : 28/17 on 57% shooting.
Grizzlies are the best rebounding team in the league (Portland falling back now with both centers out obviously) , a whopping +5 and 14 offensive boards a game. Gasol also still a double double with 15/10.
The one thing they miss is a legit option off the bench to go with that starting 5.

Oh, and Steve Nash got some humour :

How about the now 20-13 Rockets ? That game last night against Dallas was awesome (just finished watching the replay) .

22nd in FG%
15th in 3P%
22nd in FT attempted
1st in getting blocked (a whopping 7 times a game !)


21st in oponents FG percentage
15th in oposing 3P%
29th in blocked shots

so you have team that plays inefficient offense (for the exact same number of PPG the Celtics and Cavs need 7 less FGAs) and is below average defensively in terms of raw team stats, yet is 20-13 ?
They aren´t a good rebounding team either (17th in diferential) and are average at forcing turnovers (13th)

Their 9 man rotation :

-A starting PG with 5 assist to 3 TOs and 0.7 steals who still is well below average in terms of passing ability in vision (almost all his assists are easy passes to open shooters after drawing a help defender) and i shooting at an ok-above average rate (42%, 39% , ok Points per shot or similar stats)

-A starting SG taking the most shots and 3 point shots on the team despite shooting 37% from the field, 31% from 3, 65% from 3 and just topping 1.0 Points Per Shot. Who also does not play good defense at all, way too much gambdling.

- A starting SF averaging 8.5 PPG in over 33 minutes shooting 42%.

- A starting PF who shoots just 2 FTs a game resulting in a very pedestrian PPS and blocked 10 shots all year

- A starting C who averages 5/6, shoots 1 FT a game (high comedy, too) and blocked 13 shots all year.

- A 6th man PF who is their best inside scorer but averages 0.7 assists (and thus doesn´t open things up much)

- A backup PG who shoots 40% and 31% from 3

- A backup SG shooting 41% and 33% from 3 while just topping 1.0 Points Per Shot

- A backup PF shooting 42% and averaging 3 boards in 15 minutes.



Obviously i made an effort to pick the weaknesses, but it´s not like those are sidenotes but key stats.

So the fact that they are 20-13 is beyong incredible, statistically speaking.

What i´m saying : Watch a Rockets game if you want to see what "better than the sum of it´s parts" means in terms of a basketball team.

that should meet my homerism quota for the next week or so :)

OH, and a soon-to-be 36 year old Nash is posting basically the best stats of his career ... 18.4 PPG, 11.2 APG in 33 minutes. Shooting 54% from the field (best among perimeter players), 43% from 3 and 94% from the line (will likely be his 4th 50/40/90 season, since the 3 point line was put in this was reached only 6 other times, with only Bird doing it twice) and lis very close to leading the whole league in a couple advanced shooting statistics anfd does lead everybody in assist percentage and in offensive rating .
Steve Nash NBA & ABA Statistics | Basketball-Reference.com