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DaddyTorgo 06-29-2009 02:40 PM
yeah - i chuckle at whoever said this is over. this is a long way from over.

Flasch186 06-29-2009 03:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo (Post 2061166)
yeah - i chuckle at whoever said this is over. this is a long way from over.

I continue to stand by my opinion that we have turned the corner on this and are heading in to the home stretch and I mean all of that in a bad way.

duckman 06-29-2009 04:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flasch186 (Post 2061204)
I continue to stand by my opinion that we have turned the corner on this and are heading in to the home stretch and I mean all of that in a bad way.
Of course you stand by your opinion. That would mean that you were wrong. Heaven forbid! :p

Flasch186 06-29-2009 05:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by duckman (Post 2061227)
Of course you stand by your opinion. That would mean that you were wrong. Heaven forbid! :p

there is nothing more I want to be wrong about than this opinion so I, indeed, hope to be proven wrong and Iran and it's people get freed from that Theocracy. I simply dont see the numbers, firepower, or international support ot bring about the massive change that is needed and see it ending like it did in China did too many years ago.

BYU 14 06-29-2009 07:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan (Post 2061061)

And, well, I'll let this speak for itself.........

Iran recount seen as bid to placate opposition - Yahoo! News

Quote:
President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, meanwhile, asked a top judge Monday to investigate the killing of Neda Agha Soltan, who became an icon of Iran's ragtag opposition after gruesome video of her bleeding to death on a Tehran street was circulated worldwide.

Ahmadinejad's Web site said Soltan was slain by "unknown agents and in a suspicious" way, convincing him that "enemies of the nation" were responsible.


It amazes me this guy can keep a straight face through half of the shit he says.

JPhillips 06-29-2009 07:32 PM
Sullivan has a post that says the recount shows an even greater margin of victory for Ahmadinejad. If you're going to lie make it a big lie.

DaddyTorgo 06-29-2009 07:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JPhillips (Post 2061325)
Sullivan has a post that says the recount shows an even greater margin of victory for Ahmadinejad. If you're going to lie make it a big lie.

yeah - except the people didn't buy the initial lie so there's zero chance they buy the bigger one :lol:

Mizzou B-ball fan 07-02-2009 06:32 AM
Interesting read discussing the current tensions amongst the clerics. The Supreme Leader's integrity and power structure has really been compromised at this point. He's made a lot of enemies in recent days.

http://tehranbureau.com/widening-divide/

Mizzou B-ball fan 07-05-2009 09:38 AM
Huge news coming out of Iran today. The most important religious group in Iran has called out the Supreme leader and his associates and declared the results to be illegitimate. Reports just out say that their site has been blocked by the government. This is likely to be a huge boost to the opposition. It puts the Supreme Council and the President on an island.

Leading Clerics Defy Ayatollah on Disputed Iran Election - NYTimes.com

Quote:
The most important group of religious leaders in Iran has called the disputed presidential election and the new government illegitimate, an act of defiance against the country's supreme leader and the most public sign of a major split in the country's clerical establishment.

The statement by the Association of Researchers and Teachers of Qum represents a significant, if so far symbolic, setback for the government and especially the authority of the supreme leader, Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, whose word is supposed to be final. The government has tried to paint the opposition and its top presidential candidate, Mir Hussein Moussavi, as criminals and traitors, a strategy that now becomes more difficult -- if not impossible.

"This crack in the clerical establishment and the fact they are siding with the people and Moussavi in my view is the most historic crack in the 30 years of the Islamic republic," said Abbas Milani, director of the Iranian Studies Program at Stanford University. "Remember they are going against an election verified and sanctified by Khamenei."

Mizzou B-ball fan 07-05-2009 09:41 AM
More great news. A U.S. programmer has created an application that allows Iranians to circumvent the government controls. Should allow information to start flowing much more freely again.

Austin Heap » Blog Archive » Haystack: Good Luck Finding That Needle

BYU 14 07-05-2009 09:50 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan (Post 2064671)
More great news. A U.S. programmer has created an application that allows Iranians to circumvent the government controls. Should allow information to start flowing much more freely again.

Austin Heap » Blog Archive » Haystack: Good Luck Finding That Needle

As much as the "Government" in place will again acuse us of meddling, something little like this probably has a positive affect on the population in the way they view the west. Of course the population that wants/needs this probably already viewed us favorably anyway, while the ones that hate us will continue to.

Maybe a drop in the bucket, but it allows the opposition to stay informed and in touch and eventually even drops will fil a bucket.

The really good news for me in all this, is the Iranians now have an internal problem that is very much on the world stage and won't be explained away with propaganda and anti-west rhetoric.

Flasch186 07-05-2009 10:08 AM
Unfortunately the stature of the group that is calling out the people in charge, is questionable....the article below calls it a counter:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Yahoo news
TEHRAN (AFP) – A pro-reform clerical group protested against the official results of Iran's June 12 presidential election, in a statement made available to AFP.

Blasting the official electoral watchdog, the Guardians Council, the Assembly of Qom Seminary Scholars and Researchers said it no longer had the "right to judge in this case as some of its members have lost their impartial image in the eyes of the public."

On Tuesday, the unelected 12-member council upheld the re-election of hardline incumbent Mahmoud Ahmadinejad over complaints of fraud from his challengers that had brought hundreds of thousands out onto the streets.

Government spokesman Gholam Hossein Elham is a council member.

The reformist clerics said the council "did not pay attention" to the complaints lodged by defeated candidates Mir Hossein Mousavi and Mehdi Karroubi.

"The voice of people seeking justice was marred by violence which unfortunately left several dead and wounded and hundreds arrested," they said.

"How can one accept the legitimacy of the election just because the Guardians Council says so? Can one say that the government born out of these infringements is a legitimate one?"

The clerical group from Qom, the clerical nerve-centre of Iran, is a pro-reformist body seen as a counter to the conservative Qom Seminary Scholars Association.

The reformist clerics urged the authorities to release those arrested in post-election protests.

Pro-reform clerical body protests Iran elections - Yahoo! News

I love the new program and HOPE that it becomes widespread to get the ball rolling again. As I said before, IMO, this is over and will take another 3-5 years to make another attempt....but like I said to Duckman, I hope and pray I am wrong.

Flasch186 07-05-2009 10:18 AM
DOLA:

This carries more weight IMO:

Quote:
Originally Posted by CNN
TEHRAN, Iran (CNN) -- A former Iranian president who backed the top opposition leader in last month's disputed elections has delivered strong and carefully worded support of the grass-roots protest movement, saying he doubts that "any wakened consciousness would be satisfied with the resulting situation."

Ex-President Ali Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani, here voting in Iran on June 12, says trust has been eroded.

Former President Ali Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani, chairman of Iran's Assembly of Experts and a supporter of opposition leader Mir Hussein Moussavi, was quoted Saturday by the semi-official Iranian Labor News Agency.

Rafsanjani, who heads the group responsible for appointing or removing the supreme leader, was silent and largely unseen during the first two chaotic weeks after the contested June 12 elections. But Rafsanjani -- a key politician in the Islamic republic -- has become increasingly vocal about the elections results that gave hardline incumbent President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad an overwhelming victory.

Last week, Iran's election authority, the Guardian Council, said it considered the election outcome a closed case.

"People from across the country participated in the elections, with excitement," ILNA quoted Rafsanjani as saying in Saturday's story. "But unfortunately the events that occurred after that and the difficulties created for some left a bitter taste, and I don't think that any wakened consciousness would be satisfied with the resulting situation."

He referred to the recent expressions of opinions across the country regarding the election crisis as a reflection of a power struggle "at the highest levels of the system."

"I hope that with proper management and fortitude, in the next few days, we can be witnesses to the betterment of the situation, resolution of the difficulties and the decrease in the number of the families waiting for their loved ones," Rafsanjani said. "We must think about safeguarding the long term interests and benefits of the system."

While the protests over the election results mostly dissolved last week, those dissatisfied with the system continue to chant "Allahu Akbar" -- God is great -- from the rooftops in Tehran. Based on amateur footage viewed by CNN, the nighttime chanting went into its 21st consecutive day Friday.

Hopefully Rafsanjani can move the ball forward behind the scenes but the street protests are largely over while the chants continue at night.

Mizzou B-ball fan 07-05-2009 11:00 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BYU 14 (Post 2064674)
The really good news for me in all this, is the Iranians now have an internal problem that is very much on the world stage and won't be explained away with propaganda and anti-west rhetoric.

Exactly. Many of the pro-reform groups that were listed as outcasts by the theocracy/dictatorship represent the views of the majority in Iran. With the options online being reopened and the groups being termed as opposition or outsiders now carrying the support of the majority (they did before the election, but now they are able to voice their support), it's quickly coming to a point where the theocracy leaders need to start compromising or it's going to be a steady decline of their power structure. The opposition is in an excellent position to undermine everything the leaders think they can control. It can be done methodically and efficiently without much international help.

JonInMiddleGA 07-05-2009 11:26 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan (Post 2064694)
need to start compromising or it's going to be a steady decline of their power structure.

Or alternately they can take the gloves off, cut the head off the proverbial snake (no offense intended, just a useful metaphor), and simply wait for the body to die around sundown.

I'd give you better odds on that scenario than the one you propose.

Mizzou B-ball fan 07-05-2009 01:42 PM
Videos are slow to come out, but they continue to leak out slowly. More video of protesters taking down police two days ago as the violence continues in the streets. The control structure has taken a heavy hit at this point when you have people openly taunting and beating police three weeks later.

YouTube - iranians beating the anti riot police (July 3rd 2009---Please share)

Mizzou B-ball fan 07-06-2009 07:02 AM
Saudi Arabia has now given Israel the OK to fly through their airspace to attack Iran........

Saudis give nod to Israeli raid on Iran - Times Online

Flasch186 07-06-2009 03:00 PM
Perhaps that video was a stealth riot, or one of the last or misdated?

Quote:

TEHRAN, Iran – Iranian opposition leader Mir Hossein Mousavi made his first public appearance in a week Monday, vowing to continue his campaign against a government that he said lacks legitimacy. But his comments suggested he is abandoning massive street protests after they were quashed by a tough crackdown.

Mousavi's statements, reported on an pro-opposition news Web site, reflect his movement's struggles to survive after a wave of arrests that netted protesters, top pro-reform politicians and journalists. Hard-liners have called for Mousavi himself to be jailed. Since the crackdown, the dramatic marches that filled main streets after the disputed June 12 presidential elections have vanished.

Meanwhile, the Islamic clerical leadership is showing its determination to keep control. Supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei on Monday issued a sharp warning to Western nations not to criticize Iran over its crackdown, saying relations will suffer if they are seen as "meddling." Iranians, he said, would "unite against their enemies into one fist."

His warning appeared to be directed at world powers gathering at the G8 summit in Rome this week, who are to consider a coordinated response to Iran's turmoil.

In another sign of the regime's new toughness, the head of Iran's Revolutionary Guard acknowledged for the first time that the elite force — controlled by Khamenei — played the key role in putting an end to street protests.

Gen. Mohammad Ali Jafari vowed to continue to defend the regime. The force's intervention gave "new life" to the 1979 Islamic Revolution and "strengthened the pillars of the Islamic Republic of Iran," he said in comments carried on the state news agency IRNA late Sunday.

"We believe that the Guards, in line with the mission to defend the revolution, must play a determining role in preserving and continuing the revolution (by saying revolution, he means ruling system)," he said.

Jafari's comments suggested that the force, which usually works behind the scenes, could take a more overt hand in Iran's politics after the biggest challenge to Iran's system of Islamic clerical rule in decades. The protests erupted after Mousavi declared fraud in official results that showed a landslide victory by incumbent Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. Khamenei declared the results valid, but the protesters continued even after he said demonstrations would not be tolerated, a rare defiance of the man who holds ultimate political, religious and military power in the country.

The crackdown unleashed by the Guards, police and pro-government Basij militia killed 20 protesters and injured hundreds more. Since then, there have been no major street protests for more than a week, and Mousavi has stayed out of the public eye.

On Monday, however, he greeted well-wishers at his Tehran home for a holiday commemorating Shiism's greatest saint, Imam Ali, according to the Web site Parsine, which posted photos of him sitting in a salon with men and women in chadors.

Mousavi said the election had revealed the "flaws in the system" and that the government had been undermined despite its show of force.

"When a government doesn't take shape within the framework of the law, it has no legitimacy in the eyes of the people. This weakens the government and encourages the government to resort to violence against the people," Mousavi said, according to Parsine.

"The legitimacy of this government is in question because of people's lack of trust. This weakens the government from within even if it preserves it in appearance," he said.

But even while vowing to push ahead, he seemed to suggest his campaign was moving into a new phase, away from protests and into political action.

"That protests subsided or were silenced doesn't remove the basis of the matter. I think this opposition movement will continue," he said. "We need to make efforts to show our protest ... within the framework of the law."

Mousavi said he intends to "work with a group in an organized way," suggesting that he may set up a political party.

But his political options could be limited. Many prominent figures from pro-reform parties have been arrested and could face charges of instigating unrest, making it unclear how much authorities will tolerate opposition political activities that were long allowed. An attempt at mainstream politics could also disillusion young activists who joined protests hoping for dramatic change.

Police say more than 1,000 people were detained in the protests, though they insist most have been released. The pro-reform Web site Norooznews said late Sunday that Hamid Maddah Shourcheh, a member of Mousavi's campaign office in the northeastern Iranian city of Mashhad, died of torture during detention.

Along with the other arrests, Iranian authorities are also still holding a local employee from the British Embassy, Hossein Rassam. His lawyer said Saturday that Rassam has been charged with "acting against national security."

The detention has brought vocal protests from Britain and the European Union ahead of the G8 summit in Rome. The summit includes Russia, which has close ties with Tehran, and Germany, which has substantial economic connections to Iran. Also attending the summit is President Barack Obama, who has sought to open a dialogue with Iran and who says the option of diplomacy is still open even after the election turmoil.

Khamenei's warning on Monday appeared aimed at signaling that any of those policies could be at risk if the West takes a harsh stance on Tehran.

"Some leaders of Western countries at the level of president, prime minister and foreign minister openly intervened in Iran's internal affairs that had nothing to do with them," he said in a speech to thousands of Iranians during ceremonies for Monday's holiday.

Khamenei said Iran will pay attention to the remarks and behaviors of Western governments.

"Be careful. The Iranian nation will show reaction. We will calculate these hostile remarks, these hostile behaviors," he said. "They should know this. This behavior will undoubtedly have negative impact on future relations and interactions between the Islamic Republic and the interventionists."

Iran's opposition leader makes public appearance - Yahoo! News

Im not sure that there wont be a more strategic time for a revolution in the next few years but IMO this isn't the right time once the momentum began to falter.

gstelmack 07-06-2009 03:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flasch's article
Supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei on Monday issued a sharp warning to Western nations not to criticize Iran over its crackdown, saying relations will suffer if they are seen as "meddling.

How exactly can the West's relationship with Iran get any worse?

Flasch186 07-06-2009 03:21 PM
the Evil Eye.

Mizzou B-ball fan 07-07-2009 07:28 AM
Good article that details just how important the clerical group release calling the election illegitimate really is. It puts both the Supreme leader and the religious military groups in a bind. The religious establishment has issues at this point, both in the open and behind the scenes, that won't go away anytime soon.

Mullahs on My Mind

Mizzou B-ball fan 07-08-2009 10:03 AM
Some brutal reports from Iranian doctors...........

Iran: doctors denounce terror in hospitals - National Council of Resistance of Iran - Foreign Affairs Committee

Mizzou B-ball fan 07-09-2009 07:28 AM
Large protests expected today in Iran. Videos have been circulated detailing how to disable Basij motorcycles.

Also, more news coming out regarding the quickly widening cracks in the Supreme Leader's power. He has put his son in charge of the Basij, indicating increased disloyalty amongst the Basij ranks, who are little more than paid mercinary thugs for the most part who have no loyalty to the regime. The problem is that most of the clerical leaders see this move as a power grab. The only thing keeping the clerics from speaking out is a realization that their dissent could cause the entire political structure to collapse, opening the door wide for a full revolution.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009...s-iran-militia

It's amazing that this situation has reached this level of instability and we haven't even reached the 40th day mourning protests that are likely to be very large and bloody.

Flasch186 07-09-2009 09:48 AM
I hope youre right in your expectations.

flere-imsaho 07-09-2009 11:11 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by gstelmack (Post 2065555)
How exactly can the West's relationship with Iran get any worse?

We could begin an indiscriminate bombing campaign that results in the widespread loss of life and turns what pro-Western (or at least ambivalent-Western) people do exist in Iran, against us as well.

Hey, you asked. :p

Flasch186 07-09-2009 11:54 AM
I hope MBBF's definition of Large is flexible:

Quote:
TEHRAN, Iran (CNN) -- Iranian pro-government Basij militia members dispersed crowds of protesters in Tehran Thursday -- sometimes with force -- according to a journalist on the scene.

Protests by Iranians, such as this one on June 15, have been defended by the reformist figures.

The demonstration is taking place on the 10th anniversary of a student uprising that, at the time, posed the biggest threat to the Islamic regime since its inception in 1979.

The protesters are using the anniversary to resume demonstrations against the outcome of the June 12 presidential election.

An estimated 2,000 to 3,000 people crowded the streets and headed toward Tehran University, the site of the 1999 student uprising.

Several protesters were hit on the arms and backs by the Basij, the journalist reported. The militia tried to persuade one man, whose face was bleeding, to get into an ambulance, but he refused.

Some of the protesters shouted "Allah u Akbar," or "God is Great" and "Ya Hussein, Mir Hussein" referring to opposition candidate Mir Hossein Moussavi.

Police blocked other roads leading to Tehran University, while some protesters set trash cans on fire to counter the effects of the tear gas.

Earlier, the commander of Iran's security forces warned that police would "strongly confront" anyone planning to protest on the anniversary of a pivotal point in Iran's reformist movement.

In an interview with the state-run Islamic Republic News Agency (IRNA), Maj. Gen. Esmaeel Ahmadi Moghadam said authorities would confront protesters and that no demonstration permit had been issued for Thursday.

On July 9, 1999, known as the 18th of Tir in the Iranian calendar, 200 students protested the closing of a reformist newspaper, Salaam, which supported moderate President Mohammed Khatami. Hard-line activists entered dormitories in Tehran University, broke windows, set fires and attacked the students.

Tehran's governor, Morteza Tamaddon, issued a warning as the police chief, Maj. Seyed Hadi Hashemi, told IRNA that authorities are trying to encourage people to leave the capital before Thursday because of severe haze.

Hashemi "urged the citizens to consider Tehran's heavy pollution and travel outside of the capital for the weekend in order to help reduce traffic," IRNA reported.

Iranian-American journalist Jason Rezaian said Iranians were frightened after a brutal crackdown on those who protested the outcome of the June 12 presidential elections. Hardliner Mahmoud Ahmadinejad was declared the winner over reformist candidate Moussavi, his chief rival.

Moussavi's supporters took to the streets by the thousands in the aftermath of the vote until the protests turned bloody as security forces cracked down.

Buzz of protests Thursday swirled on social networking sites but Rezaian said it was difficult to predict how such a landmark day might unfold.

He said he had heard something "big" would take place but no one wanted to talk about it for fear of tipping off the security forces.

Six days of protests erupted. According to Human Rights Watch, more than 25,000 people eventually participated, making the demonstrations the biggest threat to the Islamic regime since its inception in 1979.

"Obviously, there has been a crackdown and people are scared, said Rezaian, who covered the June elections and reported from Tehran for about 12 days afterward. He was forced to leave because of restrictions placed on international media outlets.

He said he had been in Iran in previous years on July 9 and had seen firsthand that security was heightened for the anniversary. Iranians, he said, have a penchant for marking all sorts of anniversaries and this one, this year, could not be more relevant.

"There is no fathomable way that after everything we've seen in the last 30 days that they wouldn't take this opportunity," Rezaian said.

Ultimately, he said, "it's one more important day in a succession of important days."

Dutch 07-09-2009 01:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by flere-imsaho (Post 2068462)
We could begin an indiscriminate bombing campaign that results in the widespread loss of life and turns what pro-Western (or at least ambivalent-Western) people do exist in Iran, against us as well.

Hey, you asked. :p

Actually, if there is one thing that historically has turned a group of civilians further away from hostility and belligerence--it's been indiscriminate bombing in rediculously large doses. ;)

Mizzou B-ball fan 07-09-2009 01:08 PM
Incredible videos of the demonstrations over at Huffington Post. Pretty amazing how bad the MSM has been in reporting the number of protesters. They've really missed the boat on Iran over the past month. As Andrew Sullivan has pointed out in recent weeks, their reporting is relatively worthless if you're looking for good information. He's linked some live blogs where good information can be found.

The Daily Dish | By Andrew Sullivan

A dozen are reported dead, which is bad news for the regime. That just adds to the mourning protests and increases the opportunities for future protests. It's yet another situation that mirrors the issues that the Shah's regime had in 1979. It's almost eerie in its similarity.

Mizzou B-ball fan 07-09-2009 01:22 PM
More info coming out regarding protests. Many of MSM reports are only covering one protest, hence the reason for their inaccurate reports. A new tactic used today was to have many small protests across the city. The Basij and paramilitary were preparing for one large protest and are not equipped well for multiple clashes spread out over the city. It appears to have worked well as there are several reports where protesters overwhelmed the undermanned Basij in some areas. Probably will see more of this kind of tactic moving forward.

JonInMiddleGA 07-09-2009 02:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan (Post 2068590)
It appears to have worked well as there are several reports where protesters overwhelmed the undermanned Basij in some areas. Probably will see more of this kind of tactic moving forward.

One would think that it's the sort of tactic that works best the first time it's used & then with decreasing effectiveness afterwards. Unless of course the opponent is simply to stupid to adjust accordingly.

Flasch186 07-09-2009 02:17 PM
if 2000-3000 is large what is your definition of small?

I do not think the words "accurate" or "innacurate" means what you think it means.

Neon_Chaos 07-09-2009 06:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flasch186 (Post 2068640)
if 2000-3000 is large what is your definition of small?

I do not think the words "accurate" or "innacurate" means what you think it means.

Are the numbers from CNN accurate? They have done a horrible job of covering the crisis, and have noone inside Iran anymore, methinks.

Flasch186 07-09-2009 08:12 PM
dunno, but that info is just as good as MBBF's garnered from Blogs....

{shrug}

MBBF has an agenda in this thread (much like many others) and it would be nice to see him be 'real' instead of spinning one way or the other ESPECIALLY considering that 100% of the people in this thread support the Iranian people in this and hope that they do get democracy, true democracy, and their freedom(s). I mean why is MBBF spinning the people that are walking lockstep with him...like were in Jonestown or something.

duckman 07-10-2009 12:10 AM
Just like Flasch trying to prove he's the authority of what is right or decent, but coming off as a self centered piece of trash. It's more important to be right than anything else that is meaningful.

Again, MBBF = Flasch.

Flasch186 07-10-2009 06:19 AM
mmmmk.

Mizzou B-ball fan 07-10-2009 06:46 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA (Post 2068639)
One would think that it's the sort of tactic that works best the first time it's used & then with decreasing effectiveness afterwards. Unless of course the opponent is simply to stupid to adjust accordingly.

They've shown several tactic changes thus far. Most of the changes follow the blueprint of the 1979 revolution and have worked well. They'll have to make sure they keep switching on the fly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Neon_Chaos (Post 2068861)
Are the numbers from CNN accurate? They have done a horrible job of covering the crisis, and have noone inside Iran anymore, methinks.

Crowd estimates on the ground yesterday were around 25,000. As mentioned before, they were in 6-8 locations until joining together late in the day.

Flasch186 07-10-2009 03:12 PM
Link?

CamEdwards 07-10-2009 07:06 PM
Give it a rest Flasch. It's a big enough story that it was on the front page of the Washington Post today (color picture above the fold, story on page A12). You're trying to pick a fight where there's no need for one.

Flasch186 07-10-2009 07:54 PM
I dont get the Washington Post nor do I troll the online newspapers daily (maybe I should). I was truly hoping he could point me in the direction of the data, from a reliable source, so I can believe what he is 'seeing'. We're all rooting for them but he peppers his posts with so much spin it's hard to know what is real and spin...For example the police building set on fire...well not really. Im not asking for much when I ask for a link from a reputable news source as opposed to a blog or twitter account.

and than FWIW we have this thread be a partisan free zone and he starts using these colorful adjectives in his posts that make it hard to get only facts so one HAS to start digging for the data and cobbling their own opinions (like mine). I have no idea if Im right or wrong, much to Duckman's chagrine, but from what I read, from trusted sources (whether or not the right who the F knows) I form an opinion, like everyone else. As I said Im on MBBF's side on this but want the facts (whatever there are and less PS3 spin).

fantom1979 07-11-2009 08:53 AM
It really hard not to get the news from Twitter or Blogs, since thats where CNN is getting their news from. I don't think CNN has a reporter within 500 miles of Tehran.

Passacaglia 07-11-2009 10:15 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flasch186 (Post 2068640)
if 2000-3000 is large what is your definition of small?

I do not think the words "accurate" or "innacurate" means what you think it means.

You call this assy post "truly hoping he could point me in the direction of data"?

First of all, he already said before this that he's seen reports of 25,000. Therefore, he's not saying that 2000-3000 is large, he's saying that 25,000 is large.

Also, I love the princess bride and all, but that line is so condescending and insulting when used in real life. If you want something to respond to, you can say what you're thinking about his use of the word "accurate" rather than pull this crap. And if you ARE going to do it, at least spell "inaccurate" properly, and use proper conjugation!

Flasch186 07-11-2009 10:15 AM
I would venture to guess that CNN, which Im actually quite dismayed about, is filtering through all the twittering and blogging (which makes their channel unbearable) and would vocalize and paint the stuff that has some semblance of credility or slap the all too often used "unsubstantiated" in the bottom right corner of the screen. I dont watch much MSNBC because they seem to be the same as Fox so Im left watching CNBC. {shrug} which aint too bad after all.

Flasch186 07-11-2009 10:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Passacaglia (Post 2070492)
You call this assy post "truly hoping he could point me in the direction of data"?

First of all, he already said before this that he's seen reports of 25,000. Therefore, he's not saying that 2000-3000 is large, he's saying that 25,000 is large.

Also, I love the princess bride and all, but that line is so condescending and insulting when used in real life. If you want something to respond to, you can say what you're thinking about his use of the word "accurate" rather than pull this crap. And if you ARE going to do it, at least spell "inaccurate" properly, and use proper conjugation!

thats not true. In his earlier post he said large and the news reports were 2000-3000 so it is a valid question to ask if he considers that large, small, and vice versa. 25,000 was drummed up later in the thread.

My apologies on the spelling, sometimes my speed trumps my spelling but it doesnt change the fact that this thread, one in which we are all in the same fan club, gets spun when it doesnt need to be, as Wade pointed out earlier.

Everyone is entitled to their opinion. I stated mine a few pages earlier that we are seeing this wind down. I continue to stand by that opinion and hope to be proven wrong. MBBF's newsdrops just simply are not accurate {shrug} but spun....in a thread that doesnt need to be.

The Obama thread, sure. The Palin thread. Ok. PS3 v Xbox. fire away....But why here?

duckman 07-11-2009 10:25 AM
Typical Flasch response. Read the sig.

Flasch186 07-11-2009 10:47 AM
yup, im one piece of trash in this world.

Flasch186 07-12-2009 12:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by article
Troops willing to die to stop Iran unrest, general says

updated 3:47 a.m. EDT, Sun July 12, 2009

TEHRAN, Iran (CNN) -- A top Iranian general said government troops are "ready to sacrifice our lives" rather than back down in the face of protests over June's disputed presidential election.
Iranians have held mass protests, such as this one on June 15, over the recent disputed presdential election.

Iranians have held mass protests, such as this one on June 15, over the recent disputed presdential election.

Gen. Sayyed Hassan Firouzabadi, chief of Iran's Joint Armed Forces, said Iranian soldiers were willing to die as they did in the brutal eight-year Iran-Iraq war in the 1980s, according to the state-run Fars News Agency.

"Some may think that by protesting and chanting their slogans against us, we will back down, retreat and give up," Firouzabadi said. "We are ready to sacrifice our lives, as we showed during the time of the Sacred Defense [the Iran-Iraq war]."

The government has cracked down on Iranians who protested the outcome of the June 12 election in which hard-line President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad was declared the winner over his chief rival, reformist Mir Hossein Moussavi.

Moussavi called the vote fraudulent and his supporters took to the streets by the thousands, sparking clashes between demonstrators and government troops, and members of a pro-government paramilitary force.

"The military uniform, in the system of the Islamic Republic, which is the system of the holy Quran, is the uniform of the Prophet's faithful, Firouzabadi said. "It is the uniform of service to the supreme leadership and the people."

Meanwhile, Brig. Gen. Azizollah Rajabzadeh, Tehran's police chief, announced the creation of a 50,000-strong constable-like force called the "honorary police officers" that will assist police units, state-run Press TV reported.

Rajabzadeh said the honorary police force could eventually expand to 300,000 nationwide.

Troops willing to die to stop Iran unrest, general says - CNN.com

JonInMiddleGA 07-12-2009 12:13 PM
I still find all the folks who seem enamored with the latest urgently breaking mega mond news from the techno doodads incredibly amusing.

Largely out of touch with reality (and realpolitik in particular) & likely targets for future sales of bridges, swamp land, and incredible opportunities for substantial wealth from Nigeria ... but amusing nonetheless.

Flasch186 07-12-2009 12:15 PM
Jon, that sentence hurt my head :)

flere-imsaho 07-13-2009 09:02 AM
I'd like to point out that if you're in the oil business, there are, in fact, opportunities for incredible wealth from Nigeria and most involve being in a swamp, coincidentally. :D

Mizzou B-ball fan 07-13-2009 09:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by flere-imsaho (Post 2071409)
I'd like to point out that if you're in the oil business, there are, in fact, opportunities for incredible wealth from Nigeria and most involve being in a swamp, coincidentally. :D

My wife's great grandparents had a large plot of land in Canada that they farmed in the late 1800s. They sold it after a couple of years for pennies on the dollar. Nothing would grow on the land because they had all this black ooze coming up everywhere on the property. :D

Mizzou B-ball fan 07-14-2009 06:47 AM
More protests and confrontation expected on Friday per links on Andrew Sullivan's blog. Some of the bigger leaders in the opposition may participate.......

Iran Opposition Alert: Friday is the Day? | Enduring America

In addition, the senior cleric in Iran has issued a fatwa declaring the Supreme Leader's regime "illegitimate and defying Islam".........

http://tehranbureau.com/grand-ayatol...tazeris-fatwa/

Flasch186 07-14-2009 06:48 AM
FWIW

This is a very good informative post In my opinion and exactly what people like me are looking for in this thread.

EDIT to add - I still dont like that we're considering 'news' to be bloggish but it is what it is.

flere-imsaho 07-14-2009 09:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan (Post 2072739)
In addition, the senior cleric in Iran has issued a fatwa declaring the Supreme Leader's regime "illegitimate and defying Islam".........

This seems somewhat serious.

Mizzou B-ball fan 07-14-2009 12:57 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by flere-imsaho (Post 2072806)
This seems somewhat serious.

Seems pretty ballsy, eh? I don't think these kinds of things get enough credit. This guy is risking his life with this comment. It'll definitely stir up the masses assuming guys like Mousavi hold up their end and show up for the protests. I think they'll do so.

lungs 07-14-2009 01:17 PM
Can somebody please explain to me why the links in this thread have been my best source of info since the initial rush?

DaddyTorgo 07-14-2009 01:24 PM
cuz the mainstream media has no access and they know the typical american tv viewer likes pictures over substance so they're reluctant to cover it

JonInMiddleGA 07-14-2009 01:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lungs (Post 2073112)
Can somebody please explain to me why the links in this thread have been my best source of info since the initial rush?

In all honesty, because relatively few Americans of working age actually give a serious damn about this.

It's a sidebar at absolute most for the average TV viewer, there's little margin in covering it in more than the most cursory manner & doubly or triply so given the apparent difficulties in covering it accurately.

edit to add: You're getting more coverage on this here than elsewhere because it's essentially a niche deal, same as sports text sims.

tarcone 07-14-2009 04:04 PM
A possible revolution in the regions most powerful nation is a niche? Man that is crazy. This could change the face of the world if, as Im assuming it is correct, a more friendly-to-the-USA leader gains power.

JonInMiddleGA 07-14-2009 04:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tarcone (Post 2073273)
A possible revolution in the regions most powerful nation is a niche? Man that is crazy.

Go talk to 100 random Americans & see how many of them are following the story in anything other than the most casual fashion.

Quote:
This could change the face of the world if, as Im assuming it is correct, a more friendly-to-the-USA leader gains power.

LOL. This is akin to trading one sack of shit for a slightly smaller sack of shit. If that's face of the world changing stuff then the planet is too unstable to last much longer & it won't matter much anyway.

edit to add: On the importance meter, this might amount to a tenth of what Kim's reported illness in NK amounts to, at least there we can still hope somebody also knocks off the chosen equally batshit crazy heir & there could be an actual significant improvement in the situation.

tarcone 07-14-2009 04:12 PM
But if a more western friendly type leader is in power and the ayatollah loses power, and the masses want a more western type country, that could bode well for the USA.

Yeah, I know Mousavi may not be all that. But maybe he is the first step to Iran electing a leader that is pro-freedom in the near future.

JonInMiddleGA 07-14-2009 04:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by tarcone (Post 2073285)
But maybe he is the first step to Iran electing a leader that is pro-freedom in the near future.

I guess I'd have more than a trivial interest (i.e. I'm following this story with a passing interest largely because it's random info that's out there & crosses my path vs something I have any passion about following) if I thought for even a minute that:
1) That would happen in the next hundred years
2) That it would actually be remotely functional as a government even if it did
3) That it would actually make any substantial difference in the relationship between the U.S./Iran or more generally The West/Iran.

But I don't believe any of those things are even remotely realistic, so this is kind of the socio-political equivalent to me knowing that Bruno nipped the Ice Age sequel in the weekend box office receipts. I don't particularly give a major shit, but I know nevertheless.

lungs 07-14-2009 04:22 PM
I understand how the average TV watching American doesn't give a shit, but I'm probably somewhere in between being hardcore news addict and the average dipshit when it comes to my 'give a shit'ness. I read BBC, I read Drudge, I read other news outlets. But when it comes to Iran, I'm getting all my info in this thread.

Unless I'm not looking hard enough. But having others follow sites that I don't follow and posting the relevant stuff here is nice and appreciated because this is a topic I do give a shit about.

Mizzou B-ball fan 07-14-2009 09:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lungs (Post 2073291)
I understand how the average TV watching American doesn't give a shit, but I'm probably somewhere in between being hardcore news addict and the average dipshit when it comes to my 'give a shit'ness. I read BBC, I read Drudge, I read other news outlets. But when it comes to Iran, I'm getting all my info in this thread.

Unless I'm not looking hard enough. But having others follow sites that I don't follow and posting the relevant stuff here is nice and appreciated because this is a topic I do give a shit about.

The average American votes once every 4 years and often only votes knowing a small portion of the information about each candidate. I don't think it should be any less surprising that the average American isn't tuned in to the fact that possible world-changing events are occurring in Iran.

Mizzou B-ball fan 07-16-2009 08:02 AM
More info coming out today. First a brutal raping of a woman who was taken on the streets. Her 'womb and anus were ruptured in an unfortunate accident' according to the government official. That's a helluva 'accident'.

Shirin Sadeghi: The Rape of Taraneh: Prison Abuse of Iran's Protesters

Mousavi will be at Friday sermon and more protests in the street are planned after that sermon.............

Mousavi: Protesters' blood will not go in vain

More video of the nightly rooftop protests that continue into their 4th week........

Last Night’s Chants of “Allah-o Akbar” « niacINsight

lungs 07-16-2009 09:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan (Post 2074898)
More info coming out today. First a brutal raping of a woman who was taken on the streets. Her 'womb and anus were ruptured in an unfortunate accident' according to the government official. That's a helluva 'accident'.

Shirin Sadeghi: The Rape of Taraneh: Prison Abuse of Iran's Protesters

Mousavi will be at Friday sermon and more protests in the street are planned after that sermon.............

Mousavi: Protesters' blood will not go in vain

More video of the nightly rooftop protests that continue into their 4th week........

Last Night’s Chants of “Allah-o Akbar” « niacINsight

And the raped woman will probably be executed for daring to be raped.

Mizzou B-ball fan 07-16-2009 01:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lungs (Post 2074977)
And the raped woman will probably be executed for daring to be raped.

Actually, they won't do that. As was mentioned over at Andrew Sullivan's site, if they kill her, she becomes a martyr. If they let her live, she is a relative outcast in their society (i.e. it was somehow her fault).

Interesting read about tomorrow. Good points in here about how many of the opposition leaders prefer to work behind the scenes to uproot power rather than doing it in an open manner. Also notes the surprising resignation of the leader of the country's nuclear program.

Iran Opposition Leader Plans Public Appearance - NYTimes.com

Mizzou B-ball fan 07-17-2009 10:39 AM
Heavy protests in the streets following the Friday sermon. Lots of confrontations between riot police and protesters. Several thousand protesters now have the State-run media building surrounded and are trying to break in. There are reports that religious police are becoming battle-weary and that government is having to pay more to get more 'volunteer' forces into Tehran.

I'll link the general thread for this week's information over at Huffington Post if interested in more/ongoing details...........

Iran Uprising Blogging: Latest Updates

Flasch186 07-17-2009 11:21 AM
I'd agree that THIS is enough people, IMO, to be considered 'Large':

Quote:
Police tear-gas Iran protesters during prayer
AP


TEHRAN, Iran – Tens of thousands of government opponents packed Iran's main Islamic prayer service Friday, chanting "freedom, freedom" and other slogans as their top clerical backer Akbar Hashemi Rafsanjani delivered a sermon bluntly criticizing the country's leadership over the crackdown on election protests.

Outside, police and pro-government Basiji militiamen fired tear gas and charged thousands of protesters who chanted "death to the dictator" and called on President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad to resign. Dozens were arrested, piled in trucks and taken away, witnesses said.

Plainclothes Basijis stood in front of a line of riot police and pumped canisters of tear gas, which young protesters with green bandanas over their faces kicked away across the pavement, away from the crowds. Some set a bonfire in the street and waved their hands in the air in victory signs.

The opposition aimed to turn the Friday prayers at Tehran University into a show of their continued strength despite heavy government suppression since the disputed June 12 presidential election.

Opposition leader Mir Hossein Mousavi, who claims to have won the election, sat in the front row of worshippers, attending for the first time since the turmoil began. Many of the tens of thousands at the prayers wore headbands or wristbands in his campaign color green, or had green prayer rugs.

In his sermon broadcast live on radio nationwide, Rafsanjani reprimanded the clerical leadership for not listening to people's complaints over the election, which was declared a victory for Ahmadinejad despite opposition claims of fraud.

"Doubt has been created (about the election results)," Rafsanjani said. "There is a large portion of the wise people who say they have doubts. We need to take action to remove this doubt."

Rafsanjani couched his sermon in calls for unity in support of Iran's Islamic Republic. But his sermon was an unmistakable challenge to Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, who declared Ahmadinejad's victory valid and ordered an end to questioning of the results. Rafsanjani said the dispute has split clerics and warned of "crisis."

Worshippers interrupted Rafsanjani with chants of "azadi, azadi" — Persian for "freedom" — and the cleric got tears in his eyes as he spoke of how Islam's Prophet Muhammad "respected the rights" of his people. Rafsanjani said the leader of the 1979 Islamic revolution, Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, "knew that people's vote was the most important thing in our country" and insisted it be enshrined in the founding of the Islamic Republic.

"Where people are not present or their vote is not considered, that government is not Islamic," Rafsanjani said.

He criticized the postelection wave of arrests, saying the leadership should show sympathy for protesters and release those detained. "Sympathy must be offered to those who suffered from the events... and reconcile them with the ruling system," he said. "We need to placate them."

Rafsanjani, a former president, regularly gives the Friday sermon but had not appeared since the election turmoil began. He is bitter rival of Ahmadinejad and is considered Mousavi's top supporter within Iran's clerical leadership, heading two of the three main clerical bodies that oversee the government. His daughter and four other relatives who openly backed Mousavi were briefly detained during protests last month.

In the days after the June election, hundreds of thousands marched in the streets in support of Mousavi. But after Khamenei validated the results, police, elite Republican Guards and Basiji militiamen launched a fierce crackdown on protesters in which hundreds were arrested and at least 20 killed — though human rights groups say the figure could be several times that official toll.

The scene outside the university on Friday was tumultuous. Before the sermon, police fired tear gas at hundreds of Mousavi backers trying to enter. When Mahdi Karroubi, another pro-reform candidate in the June election, headed for the prayers, plainclothes Basijis attacked him, shoving him and knocking his turban to the ground, witnesses said. "Death to the opponent of Velayat-e-Faqih," they chanted as they attacked him, referring to the supreme leader, the witnesses said.

Also arrested was a prominent women's rights activist, Shadi Sadr, who was beaten by militiamen, pushed into a car and driven away to an unknown location, Mousavi's Web site موج سبز آزادی :: Green Freedom Wave and a women's rights site Object reference not set to an instance of an object. said.

Inside the prayers — held on a former soccer field covered with a roof — some worshippers rubbed their eyes as tear gas from outside drifted in. They traded competing chants with some hard-liners in the congregation. When the hard-liners chanted "death to America," Mousavi supporters countered with "death to Russia" and "death to China."

It was a reference to Ahmadinejad's alliance with both countries. Ahmadinejad has come under criticism in Iran for not criticizing Beijing over Muslim deaths in China's western Xinjiang province.

After the prayers, some worshippers joined the protests outside, swelling their numbers to thousands, witnesses said, speaking on condition of anonymity because of fears of government retaliation.

In his sermon, Rafsanjani — known as a mercurial and savvy political insider — was careful not to mention Khamenei. But he sharply criticized the Guardians Council, a powerful clerical body that has become Khamenei and Ahmadinejad's strongest backers. The Guardians Council oversaw the election, then conducted a partial recount that validated Ahmadinejad's victory. Opponents dismiss the recount.

Rafsanjani said the Guardians Council had had an "opportunity to unite the people and regain their trust," but the chance was "not used properly."

Rafsanjani heads two other top clerical bodies, the Experts Council and the Expediency Council. In the past week, a behind-the-scenes power struggle between Rafsanjani and the Guardians Council has become public, fueling heavy hard-liner criticism of Rafsanjani.

Rafsanjani also openly spoke of the split among clerics over the election. Many other prominent clerics have been sharply critical of the government or have failed to announce their backing for Ahmadinejad, including most of the country's "maraje'-e-taghlid," or "sources of emulation," Shiite clerics of the highest rank whose religious rulings are closely obeyed by their many followers.

"The maraje'-e-taghlid have always supported and served (the people). Why some of them are offended?" Rafsanjani said. "We need to keep them beside us. We need to support them and rely on them."

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090717/..._iran_election

Mizzou B-ball fan 07-20-2009 09:04 AM
Lots of news coming out of Iran today (links via Huffington Post blog). Supreme Leader remains defiant, calls for opposition to stand down.......

The Associated Press: Iran supreme leader warns opposition to back down

Intriguing stuff here. 36 Army soldiers of various rank were arrested after attempting to protest government crackdown at Friday sermon......

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009...icers-arrested

Former Iranian president calls for referendum on legitimacy of current government.

http://blog.taragana.com/n/irans-ex-...crisis-114522/

Former parliament speaker calls out government violence.....

Quote:
"How do they try to say that they do not confront people violently or to blame others? All of this took place in front of people's eyes," Karrubi told supporters, according to Aftab. "They kill the youth in front of people's eyes and then say that they didn't have firearms. As a member of this system, I am embarrassed of these thoughtless and clear lies."

There were reports Friday that Karrubi himself was roughed up by members of the Basij, the paramilitary force loyal to Iran's hardline leadership. CNN could not independently verify those reports at the time, but Karrubi said he was "assaulted" and that his turban was knocked off, according to Aftab.

Mizzou B-ball fan 07-21-2009 08:32 AM
This has to be a relatively scary turn of events for many of the police from rural areas who are getting paid to crack down. The opposition is now posting pictures of people who have killed innocent protesters. The one in the below link is a big one......he's the guy that killed Neda.

Arash Hejazi's contemplations

Makes it awfully tough to recruit people when they know they might have their picture posted on the internet as a thug to be targeted.

Flasch186 07-21-2009 08:50 AM
also scary in that how do you know that he is actually the guy that killed her? It flies in the face of trial and justice to do this and I hope that it doesn't sully their gains towards freedom.

Also Im happy to admit that the internal pressures coming from Rafsanjani may in fact be a long term boon towards a change over there and prove me wrong in that I believed it was over (I still think it tapered off too much to achieve their goals)...it's legs are longer than I initially thought. I hope they prove me wrong in full.

Mizzou B-ball fan 07-21-2009 08:56 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flasch186 (Post 2078343)
also scary in that how do you know that he is actually the guy that killed her? It flies in the face of trial and justice to do this and I hope that it doesn't sully their gains towards freedom.

Given that the government is posting the faces of innocent protesters for the same purpose and imprisoning thousands without trial, I don't think its a bad idea at all to post the picture of the man who killed an innocent woman in cold blood. Also, you may not know this, but he has been identified by the doctor who treated Neda on the scene as the one who fired the shots that killed her.

JonInMiddleGA 07-21-2009 11:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan (Post 2078349)
Also, you may not know this, but he has been identified by the doctor who treated Neda on the scene as the one who fired the shots that killed her.

And we all know that eyewitnesses are never wrong, nor do any of them eer have agendas of their own.

As I've alluded to previously, even if the Keystone Koup gets what it wants, the only thing that's going to change there is the faces on the posters.

Mizzou B-ball fan 07-21-2009 11:19 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JonInMiddleGA (Post 2078443)
And we all know that eyewitnesses are never wrong, nor do any of them eer have agendas of their own.

As I've alluded to previously, even if the Keystone Koup gets what it wants, the only thing that's going to change there is the faces on the posters.

Well, in an ideal world, we'd work all that out, but when the government makes efforts to imprison the key witness forcing him to flee the country, it's somewhat difficult to get all of that done. I don't think there's any question who the victim is in this case.

Mizzou B-ball fan 07-22-2009 12:59 PM
Interesting note here. Ayatollah Khomeini's grandson leaves Iran in protest of crackdown, saying that his grandfather would not have approved of the tactics when he was alive.

Khomeini’s Grandson Flees Iran « niacINsight

Mizzou B-ball fan 07-24-2009 12:51 PM
A ton of updates over the past day too numerous to mention, so I'll just post the update thread.......

Iran Uprising Blogging: Friday Updates

Highlights include a documentary video about the Basij, several of Ahmini's cabinet walking out of a meeting in protest, and further calls for Ahmini's VP to be removed from consideration for office. Also a couple of fatwas mixed in concerning the political crisis and an article detailing the worsening nature of Iran's economic stability.

Mizzou B-ball fan 07-28-2009 07:20 AM
Interesting battle developing between the supreme leader and Ahmini.

Two Ministers Forced to Leave Iran's Cabinet - washingtonpost.com

DaddyTorgo 07-28-2009 07:34 AM
the economy may be what "breaks" them in the end - it was in 79

Mizzou B-ball fan 07-29-2009 08:01 AM
Article detailing the general public outrage in Iran as the stories of abuse and murder slowly begin to leak out. More protests are planned. Big day tomorrow (Thursday) as it is the 40th day after Neda's murder, which is expected to draw large crowds for the all-important mourning day.

Reports of Prison Abuse and Deaths Anger Iranians - NYTimes.com

Mizzou B-ball fan 08-03-2009 07:59 AM
Mousavi continues to ratchet up the rhetoric concerning torture...........

BBC NEWS | Middle East | Torture claim against Iran trial

Flasch186 08-09-2009 01:59 PM
This is a spike to the anger level over there, I would imagine, and somewhat push the issue back to the fore....although it seems to me that we're entering the home stretch wherein revolution will be on the backburner at least for another 4ish years :( :

Iran judiciary looks to calm prison abuse outrage - Yahoo! News

Quote:
Iran judiciary looks to calm prison abuse outrage
AP

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In this photo released by the semi-official Iranian Fars News Agency, French AP – In this photo released by the semi-official Iranian Fars News Agency, French lecturer Clotilde Reiss, …

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By ALI AKBAR DAREINI, Associated Press Writer Ali Akbar Dareini, Associated Press Writer – 1 hr 39 mins ago

TEHRAN, Iran – Police and judiciary officials sought on Sunday to calm public outrage in Iran over the deaths of detained protesters in prison, acknowledging abuses and calling for those responsible to be punished.

A senior commander of the powerful Revolutionary Guard, which led the crackdown against the protesters, meanwhile, said that the three top opposition figures are the ones who should be put on trial, striking a harder line that suggests tensions at the highest levels of Iran's power structure.

Iran's Prosecutor General Ghorban Ali Dorri Najafabadi called for those responsible for mistreating detainees to be punished, saying that the protesters weren't even meant to be taken to Kahrizak prison, which has been at the center of abuse claims.

"Unfortunately, negligence and carelessness by some officials caused the Kahrizak incident, which is not defendable," he told the state news agency. "During early days, it is possible there were mistakes and mistreatment due to overcrowding in the prison."

His comments were followed up by police chief Gen. Ismail Ahmadi Moghaddam who acknowledged protesters were beaten by their jailers at the same facility and its head has since been arrested along with three guards there and the prison closed down.

However he maintained that the deaths in the prison were not caused by the abuse.

"This detention center was built to house dangerous criminals. Housing people related to recent riots caused an outbreak of disease," the official news agency quoted Moghaddam as saying. Protesters "died of viral illness and not as a result of beating."

Anger of the events at Kahrizak has extended far beyond just the reformist camp, with influential figures in the clerical hierarchy condemning the abuse of detainees and the three deaths known to have taken place there.

Conservative lawmaker Hamid Reza Katouzian rejected the police chief's explanation that illness was to blame for detainee deaths.

"Murders were committed that led to the loss of life of a number of our youth. This has to be probed," the semiofficial ISNA news agency quoted him as saying in an echo of reformist demands that those involved in the abuse be put on trial.

Mohsen Rezaei, a conservative who ran against President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad in the elections, has led the demands for high-level probes into abuses.

The son of Rezaei's top aide, Abdolhossein Rouhalamini, died in detention. He was arrested during a July 9 protest and taken to a hospital two weeks later where he died within hours.

Iran has confirmed at least 30 people have died in the worst internal unrest since the 1979 Islamic Revolution, though human rights groups believe the death toll is probably far higher. Hundreds have been detained.

The criticisms are implicitly aimed at the elite Revolutionary Guard, which operates with some autonomy from the ruling clerics and led the harsh crackdown and detention of protesters in the tense weeks after the election.

A senior guard commander struck back on Sunday and challenged the judiciary for not going after the three top opposition leaders, Mir Hossein Mousavi, Mahdi Karroubi and former president Mohammad Khatami themselves, who initially led the protests over the June 12 elections on the grounds they were rigged.

"If Mousavi, Khatami ... and Karroubi are the main elements of a velvet coup in Iran, which they are, it is expected that judicial bodies and intelligence officials go to them to put out the fire of sedition, arrest, try and punish them," Yadollah Javani said, according to IRNA.

The Guard was created following the 1979 Islamic revolution as an ideological force to defend Iran's clerical rule. The 120,000-strong force is believed to be better armed and equipped than the regular military. In recent years, the Guard has also amassed a wide network of economic and political power.

The tensions between the Revolutionary Guard and judicial authorities suggests possible rivalries emerging in the highest levels of Iran's leadership as it tries to regain balance after the worst internal unrest since the 1979 Islamic Revolution.

Such internal rifts could pose serious complications for Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei, who has previously relied on near seamless unity at the top to enforce policies and control.

The tensions come as Iran presses forward with a mass trial of more than 100 prominent reformist figures, opposition activists and others accused of offenses ranging from rioting to spying and seeking to topple the country's Islamic rulers through what they call is a "soft overthrow".

The trial, which has included televised confessions that rights groups say are likely extracted through pressure, is the government's latest attempt to crush the opposition.

Iran's most senior dissident cleric, Ayatollah Hossein Ali Montazeri, has also compared the mass trial and the public confessions to the tactics of former Soviet dictator Josef Stalin, former Iraqi dictator Saddam Hussein and other authoritarian rulers.

U.S. Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton said in a TV interview broadcast Sunday that the Obama administration continued to back the opposition, as she said it did in the days just after the vote.

"We're continuing to speak out and support the opposition," she said on CNN's "Fareed Zakaria GPS" program.

Clinton said she was appalled at the treatment of detainees brought to trial.

"It is a show trial. There is no doubt about it," she said. "And it is a sign of weakness. It demonstrates, I think, better than any of us could ever say, that this Iranian leadership is afraid of their own people, and afraid of the truth and the facts coming out."

During a second hearing in the trial on Saturday, defendants talked about helping a shadowy monarchist-linked group planning a terror campaign to destabilize the country as well as meeting with U.S. intelligence operatives in northern Iraq, state-run Press TV reported.

Mohammad Reza Ali Zamani said he met with a U.S. intelligence agent called "Frank" in Irbil, the capital of the Iraqi Kurdish autonomous region, and received money and a phone from him in return for information on the Iranian government and student movements.

Mizzou B-ball fan 08-11-2009 08:00 AM
Pretty heavy insult to the Supreme Leader here.......

The Daily Dish | By Andrew Sullivan

Mizzou B-ball fan 08-24-2009 08:03 AM
The new diet plan.......Iranian prison-style.

http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id...onid=351020101

Flasch186 08-24-2009 09:01 AM
hey I forgot about this thread


/unfortunate sarcasm

Flasch186 08-26-2009 03:54 PM
bump

Flasch186 09-18-2009 05:55 PM
bubbling up:

Dueling marches pit Iran hardliners vs. reformers - Yahoo! News

Quote:

TEHRAN, Iran – Tens of thousands of protesters — many decked out in the green colors of the reform movement and chanting "Death to the dictator!" — rallied Friday in defiance of Iran's Islamic leadership, clashing with police and confronting state-run anti-Israel rallies.

In the first major opposition protests in two months, demonstrators marching shoulder-to-shoulder raised their hands in V-for-victory signs on main boulevards and squares throughout the capital.

Lines of police, security forces and plainclothes Basij militiamen kept the two sides apart in most cases. At times they waded into the protesters with baton charges and tear gas volleys. The demonstrators responded by throwing stones and bricks, and setting tires ablaze.

Hard-liners attacked two senior opposition leaders who joined the protests. Former pro-reform President Mohamad Khatami was shoved and jostled, gripping his black turban to keep it from being knocked off as supporters rushed in to protect him, pushing away the attackers and hustling him away.

The protests were a significant show of defiance after supreme leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei explicitly banned anti-government marches on Quds Day, an annual memorial created by Iran's Islamic Republic to show support for the Palestinians and denounce Israel. Quds is Arabic for Jerusalem.

It was also a show of survival. The opposition has been hit hard by a fierce crackdown in which hundreds have been arrested since disputed June 12 presidential elections sparked Iran's worst political turmoil in decades. Friday's protests could escalate the confrontation — hard-line clerics have demanded the arrest of any opposition leaders who defy Khamenei's order and back protests on Quds Day.

President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, who the opposition contends won re-election by fraud, delivered a nationally televised address, railing against Israel and the West.

Speaking before a crowd of supporters at Tehran University, he questioned whether the Holocaust was a "real event" and called it a pretext for the creation of Israel. He said the Jewish state was founded on "a lie and a mythical claim."

Outside the university, while the speech blared on loudspeakers, opposition protesters shouted "liar, liar!"

U.S. officials denounced the Iranian leader's comments on the Holocaust, which Susan Rice, the U.S. ambassador to the United Nations, called "hateful." She said President Barack Obama would not meet with Ahmadinejad during next week's gathering of world leaders at the U.N. General Assembly.

In protests around Tehran and other Iranian cities, demonstrators chanted "Not Gaza, not Lebanon — our life is for Iran" in a challenge of the government's priority of supporting Palestinian militants in Gaza and Lebanon's Hezbollah guerrillas instead of focusing on problems at home.

The Quds Day rallies, which attracted several hundred thousand people, far outnumbered the tens of thousands who turned out for the opposition — a reflection of the government's freedom to rally supporters.

Opposition supporters wearing green T-shirts and wristbands poured onto main boulevards and squares in the capital, waving green banners and balloons, and pictures of opposition leader Mir Hossein Mousavi, who claims to be the rightful winner of the election. "Death to the dictator!" they shouted.

Just hundreds of yards away, crowds of Ahmadinejad supporters marched carrying huge photographs of the president and supreme leader Khamenei. Some chanted, "Death to those who oppose the supreme leader!"

A group of hard-liners attacked Khatami nearby, surging toward him as his supporters shoved them away and surrounded the cleric, witnesses said.

Elsewhere, government supporters also tried to attack the main opposition leader, Mousavi, when he joined another march. As supporters scuffled with the attackers, Mousavi was rushed into a car and driven away, a witness said.

All the witnesses spoke on condition of anonymity for fear of government retaliation.

The government imposed restrictions on journalists, allowing them to cover the Quds Day rallies but not opposition protests. As often happens during opposition demonstrations, Internet access and phone service was frequently cut, apparently in a state attempt to sever protesters' communications.

In one of Tehran's main squares, Haft-e Tir, security forces wielding batons and firing tear gas tried to break up an opposition march, and were confronted by protesters throwing stones and bricks, witnesses said. Several policemen were seen being taken away with slight injuries.

Protesters set bonfires during another clash in the city, and young men and women wrapped green scarves over their faces against the clouds of tear gas.

At least 10 protesters were seized by plainclothes security agents in marches around the city, witnesses said.

The pro-government Quds Day rallies were held around the country, and the opposition staged competing rallies in several cities. In Shiraz to the south, police rushed protesters with batons, scuffling with them, witnesses said. Footage put out by the opposition showed hundreds of protesters fleeing a police charge in the northern city of Rasht.

Hundreds of thousands marched in support of Mousavi in the weeks after the June election, until police, Basij militiamen and the elite Revolutionary Guard crushed the protests, arresting hundreds. The opposition says 72 people were killed in the crackdown, though the government puts the number at 36. The last significant protest was on July 17.

The Quds Day occasion was established in 1979 by Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini, leader of the revolution that created Iran's Islamic Republic. Customarily on Quds Day, Iranians gather for pro-Palestinian rallies in various parts of Tehran, marching through the streets and later converging for the prayer ceremony.

In his speech, Ahmadinejad hailed the commemoration as a "day of unity" for Iranians and denounced criticism of the election.

Mizzou B-ball fan 09-29-2009 10:28 AM
Thought this would be just as good a place to discuss the Iran situation as anywhere else. Several situations going on right now.

1. New hidden nuclear plant.
2. Direct talks between the U.S. and Iran later this week.
3. Suiss being allowed to check on the three U.S. hostages (who are big-time pawns at this point).
4. Israel ratcheting up talk of an attack on Iran within 6 months.
5. Rooftop protests continue nightly, especially in Tehran.

Other than that, not much going on. :)

Flasch186 10-18-2009 07:12 AM
Now this is a turn of events I didnt see coming

Quote:
Revolutionary Guard commanders killed in Iran bomb
AP

By ALI AKBAR DAREINI and NASSER KARIMI, Associated Press Writers Ali Akbar Dareini And Nasser Karimi, Associated Press Writers – 6 mins ago

TEHRAN, Iran – A suicide bomber killed five senior commanders of the elite Revolutionary Guard and at least 26 others in an area of southeastern Iran that has been at the center of a simmering Sunni insurgency, state media reported.

The official IRNA news agency said the dead included the deputy commander of the Guard's ground force, Gen. Noor Ali Shooshtari, as well as a chief provincial Guard commander for the area, Rajab Ali Mohammadzadeh. The other dead were Guard members or local tribal leaders. More than two dozen others were wounded, state radio reported.

The commanders were on their way to a meeting with local tribal leaders in the Pishin district near Iran's border with Pakistan when an attacker with explosives around his waist blew himself up, IRNA said. The explosion occurred at the entrance of a sports complex where the meeting was to be held.

Top provincial prosecutor Mohammad Marzieh was quoted by the semi-official ISNA news agency as saying that a militant group from Iran's Sunni Muslim minority called Jundallah, or Soldiers of God, claimed responsibility.

The region in Iran's southeast has been the focus of violent attacks by Jundallah, which has waged a low-level insurgency in recent years. The group accuses Iran's Shiite-dominated government of persecution and has carried out attacks against the Revolutionary Guard and Shiite targets in the southeast.

That campaign is one of several ethnic and religious small-scale insurgencies in Iran that have fueled sporadic and sometimes deadly attacks in recent years — though none have amounted to a serious threat to the government.

The Revolutionary Guard blamed Sunday's attack on what it called the "global arrogance," a reference to the United States.

"The global arrogance, with the provocation of its local mercenaries, targeted the meeting of the Guard with local tribal leaders," said a Guard statement read out on state TV.

Iranian officials have often raised concerns that Washington might try to incite members of Iran's many ethnic and religious minorities against the Shiite-led government, which is dominated by ethnic Persians.

The Guard commanders targeted Sunday were heading to a meeting with local tribal leaders to promote unity between the Shiite and Sunni Muslim communities.

In April, Iran increased security in Sistan-Baluchistan Province, at the center of the tension, by placing it under the command of the Guard, which took over from local police forces.

The 120,000-strong Revolutionary Guard controls Iran's missile program and has its own ground, naval and air units.

Iran's parliamentary speaker, Ali Larijani, condemned the assassination of the Guard commanders, saying the bombing was aimed at disrupting security in southeastern Iran.

"We express our condolences for their martyrdom. ... The intention of the terrorists was definitely to disrupt security in Sistan-Baluchistan Province," Larijani told an open session of the parliament broadcast live on state radio.

In May, Jundallah took credit for a suicide bombing at a Shiite mosque that killed 25 people in Zahedan, the capital of Iran's Sistan-Baluchistan province, which has witnessed some of Jundallah's worst attacks. Thirteen members of the faction were convicted in the attack and hanged in July.

Jundallah is made up of Sunnis from the Baluchi ethnic minority, which can also be found in Pakistan and Afghanistan.

The group has carried out bombings, kidnappings and other attacks against Iranian soldiers and other forces in recent years, including a car bombing in February 2007 that killed 11 members of the Revolutionary Guard near Zahedan.

Jundallah also claimed responsibility for the December 2006 kidnapping of seven Iranian soldiers in the Zahedan area. It threatened to kill them unless members of the group in Iranian prisons were released. The seven were released a month later, apparently after negotiations through tribal mediators.

Iranian officials have accused Jundallah of receiving support from al-Qaida and the Taliban in neighboring Pakistan.

Chris Zambelis, a Washington-based risk management consultant who has studied Jundallah, said in a recent article, however, that there is no evidence al-Qaida is supporting the group even though it has begun to use the kinds of suicide bombings associated with the global terror network.

He said Jundallah likely looks to Baluchi insurgents in Pakistan as a source of inspiration and possibly material support. Its ties to the Taliban based in Pakistani Baluchistan are less clear, but Zambelis said any connections are probably limited to smuggling between the two countries.

"Jundallah's contacts with the Taliban are most likely based on jointly profiting from the illicit trade and smuggling as opposed to ideology," Zambelis wrote in the July issue of West Point's CTC Sentinel.

Mizzou B-ball fan 11-06-2009 07:11 AM
Incredible stuff here. This kid just stood up and nailed the Supreme Leader for 20 minutes in a public forum. Better yet, he came off as highly intelligent and did a great job of laying out his argument. VERY brave guy.

Mahmoud Vahidnia, Student, Stuns Iran By Criticizing Supreme Leader

Flasch186 11-06-2009 12:04 PM
is there video of it that we can see?

Mizzou B-ball fan 12-28-2009 07:11 AM
More protests followed by crackdowns. Plenty of video and pictures have been leaked. This will lead to another cycle of mourning protests, which will lead to more deaths, etc......

Iran Police Gun Down Protesters, Protesters Fight Back (PHOTOS) (VIDEO)

JPhillips 12-28-2009 07:17 AM
I'm not familiar with all the details of Shiaism, but apparently the killing of Mousavi's nephew, a Sayyid, on Ashura has the potential to cause a firestorm.

Mizzou B-ball fan 12-28-2009 07:27 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JPhillips (Post 2191613)
I'm not familiar with all the details of Shiaism, but apparently the killing of Mousavi's nephew, a Sayyid, on Ashura has the potential to cause a firestorm.

Yes, and I was just reading more about that where the reports coming back are that he was assassinated rather than just a protester being killed. They drove to his house and ran him over with a truck before 5 men stepped out of the truck and shot him dead after running him over.

http://andrewsullivan.theatlantic.co...i-mousavi.html

I've seen the thoughts in the below article echoed in several places, but it appears that the actions yesterday have left the current regime no options to throw out a sacrificial lamb (i.e. the Supreme leader or Ahmini) and save their power. The irony is that the protesters are now seen as the ones fighting for religious reasons and the regime is seen as clutching for power. We Americans could easily see the motives long ago, but it's now ringing true in Iran's lower and middle class, which is a huge tipping point.

http://www.thenewestdeal.org/2009/12...ng-of-end.html

DaddyTorgo 12-28-2009 07:44 AM
i have a surprising amount of confidence that they'll actually get it done - maybe not tomorrow or the next day or whatever, but this generation will get it done.

CamEdwards 12-29-2009 01:08 PM
Iranian authorities are hitting protestors with trucks.



RendeR will be happy to know that none of the protestors were armed, so there was no chance of any of them "escalating" things by shooting at the people trying to run them over.

Mizzou B-ball fan 12-29-2009 01:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CamEdwards (Post 2192659)
Iranian authorities are hitting protestors with trucks.

Wow. If that doesn't leave you speechless, nothing will.

Mizzou B-ball fan 12-30-2009 01:37 PM
Video of an entire group of baseej being disarmed by an angry mob..........



Another interesting update that the plane for the Supreme Leader and his family that would be used for escape was inspected for flight two days ago, indicating the leadership has real concerns that the conflict will escalate to uncontrollable levels in the coming weeks...........

Shahrzad News: "A jet put on standby to flly Iranian officials"

Galaril 12-30-2009 01:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mizzou B-ball fan (Post 2193324)
Video of an entire group of baseej being disarmed by an angry mob..........



Another interesting update that the plane for the Supreme Leader and his family that would be used for escape was inspected for flight two days ago, indicating the leadership has real concerns that the conflict will escalate to uncontrollable levels in the coming weeks...........

Shahrzad News: "A jet put on standby to flly Iranian officials"


I wonder where the hell they would fly to exactly?

RainMaker 12-30-2009 02:01 PM
I was reading that the government there has gotten a lot better at shutting down people online so the information would be much harder to come by.

JPhillips 12-30-2009 02:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Galaril (Post 2193329)
I wonder where the hell they would fly to exactly?

If it's a negotiated exit I'd imagine it wouldn't be that hard to find a safe haven. Hell, I'd almost give them a condo in the U.S. if it meant they'd leave Iran.


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