Yet his team was able to take the number one seed to game 7. LeBron is without a doubt in my mind one of the top 2 players in the NBA. Once he develops a jumper and gets a supporting cast he will dominate.

Aren't you in the "Celtics suck" camp? You can't have it both ways.

Lebron sucked.

If what people said about the Celtics in this thread is true, Lebron is a disaster and needs to get the hell out of Cleveland.

I am not in the Celtics sucks camp.

My bad

Pearce fouling Lebron on the prior possession when he was already shooting, and leaving the 3 point shooter with a 6 point lead and so little time left are just fundamental basketball mistakes that I am surprised to see any NBA player/team make at the end of a game.

Good FT shooting will always win those close games though, grats Celtics.

I agree 100% but Pierce was the man today.

It wasn't a 6 point game last year. The situation here dictated that a 3 pointer was mandatory. Not the case last year.

Lebron's problem is just like McGrady's, he shoots too many 3-pointers. Still, I'm shocked at how bad the supporting cast for Lebron is. I'm guessing he can't wait to get out of there.

The Cavs are a definite lottery team without LeBron. They may even be bottom-5 in the league without him.

LeBron James eFG% for the series: 46.84%, 53 assists
Rest of Cavs: 50.29%, 71 assists

When you consider that LeBron got them a lot of the open shots they did get and that pretty much nobody else on the team can reliably create their own offense as evidenced by the assists, it's a little silly to say LeBron blew the series.

Even after today, he shot 35% from the field in the series after shooting 48% in the regular season, and he turned the ball over at a much higher rate than he did during the season. Scoring points is great but a missed shot is practically a turnover.

It's a given that the rest of the team ain't great, but if he played as well in this series as he did during the season they probably would have won. That's blowing the series to me.

Expecting a player -- any player -- to put up the same numbers against an elite team focusing their defense on him as they did against average teams over the course of a season is ridiculous IMO. The whole point of showing the series stats was to point out that the rest of the team didn't play great either. They missed shots at almost the same rate as LeBron did, so it's as much their fault as it is his.

When the team is built around you and you make most of the $ you're ultimately responsible. You'll get the praise if you win and the blame if you lose. KG would be getting hammered right now for his standard big-game disappearing act if the Cavs had pulled it out.

QFT. Anyone who can't see that is blind.

Nobody said anything differently. I just said Lebron's game 7 tonight (and series) wasn't as good as Nique's in '88. And it's funny to me to compare Lebron's performance in this series to Jordan's or Nique's when they were on the way up in the playoffs because Lebron didn't meet expectations here. Lebron barely showed up until game 3, I think the hype is a little much when he shot like crap.

I was responding more to SirFozzie than your post. Nique in 88 was excellent, but even with Nique's accomplishments in 88, he didn't create like LeBron does. He never has had the assists numbers of LeBron, he didn't rebound as well as LeBron did either (except in 95 when he concentrated on rebounding with Boston.)

Also, while LeBron had a poor shooting series, unless I'm mistaken he shot around 50% tonight from the field (although the FT misses down the stretch were bad.)

Dola -

About an hour ago, I got offered a ticket to tomorrow night's Game 7 at the New Orleans' Arena. The only catch is that it is in the far corner, not a great seat. I'm guessing people here will say I should go anyway? I'm not a huge Hornet's fan, but I've enjoyed the games I've gone to when the Sixers have been in town. Not to mention, it is hard to pass up the chance to go to a Game 7.

Molson I am not sure I understand why your being overly critical of LeBron. So side question for you who is at fault for New England losing the Super Bowl?

You should go because Game 7 have a tendency to begin out great performances in people.

I'd go - but then, being over here in Australia, I'd catch a Knicks-Grizzlies preseason game if I could. ;)

If you expect the same thing out of two players regardless of differences in their supporting casts, you're not making sense IMO. I think it's obvious to most people who saw the game that there was a rather large difference in what happened to Boston when Pierce didn't have the ball, as opposed to what happened to Cleveland when James didn't have it. If that's a non-issue and the final result is all that matters, let's fire every player, coach, and GM on every team that doesn't win the title every season.

Exactly. LeBron was the best player on the court, but he just doesn't have the supporting cast to consistently beat a team like the Celtics. They have too many good players as well as a few great ones in Pierce and Garnett. Everything is easier for Pierce and Garnett now because they have each other as well as a bunch of solid players around them.

It's easy to forget that Boston has three of the best players at their positions in their starting 5.

I don't think Ray Allen and best really qualify anymore :)

He's not the Ray Allen of old (though would probably score more on most other rosters), but he still does a lot of good things outside of scoring for the Celtics. But still, 2 of the best at their pos. and a very good SG is still pretty nice. :)

Hopefully they'll be able to do something this summer with 27m in expiring deals. I didn't really expect much out of the Cavs after they played pretty mediocre after the trade deadline.

Good series, wish it would have ended differently

Nice to see some of you decided to pay attention to the Celtics this year, in spite of last years epic debacle.

I agree with the spirit of your point if I was saying something different. But in THIS series, I didn't think Lebron was that great, and he'll take zero heat for it. Just my opinion. You can be great in a losing effort, and I just don't think he was great in this series. I think he underachieved, compared with this prior performances with this same supporting cast. I know his supporting cast sucks, they always have, but he still could have won this series.

I think you could swap LeBron with Michael Jordan in his prime on that Cleveland roster and the Cavs still don't advance.

Now why did you have to go and bring up that memory? :)

I mainly blame Belichick for that loss, and my criticisms of him would be similar to those of Lebron here. (The coach/player comparison is flawed of course, but if it was EVER remotely possible, this is the context, since football is a coach's game and basketball is a player's game).

Belichick is arguably the face of the Pats over Brady and I thought he screwed that game up bigtime. (And of course the Giants were awesome).

:rolleyes:

I was waiting for someone to come out with the "OMG BANDWAGON!!1!!" nonsense.

To me it would definitely come down to fringe costs... how far is it, how much is parking, how early do you have to leave work, etc.

Also, I assume you'd be able to go with the owner(s) of the tickets and not by yourself?

Anyways, what'd you decide?

molson,

By your definition Tim Duncun sucks too, because he's played average throughout the series on the road. So Lebron sucks, Boozer, Tracy McGrady , Dwight Howard , Ray Allen, Joe Johnson, Pierce, Nowitzki, and Nash all suck. Because obviously nobody was playing defense on them, and they just couldn't score 30+ every game.

And news flash, LBJ doesn't make the most money on his team, Ben Wallace does, and he's got two other 10 million + players on the court (compared to his 13) who suck too.

Too bad they didn't have you on the court tonight, and the field for the superbowl, I'm sure you could school sucky Lebron in basketball and teach Belichick a few things about coaching.

Watch the Detroit series, I'm sure you'll see lots of defense - then if Boston loses maybe you can tell KG, Allen and Pierce how they suck too.

I'll have to take off work 2 hours early (I usually work until 6 PM on Mondays) which is the biggest downside. I don't like cancelling patients at the last second..

That being said, I decided to go. I've never been to a game 7 and it should be a great game. I'm going with the other owner, just two tickets. I live about 70 miles from the arena. I'll drive to his house and then he'll drive us to the game, but I'll pick up parking as well to thank him for getting this ticket cheap (his brother works for the ticket distributor.) I'm paying 35 dollars for the ticket.

OK, so nobody can criticize a pro athlete unless they themselves are a better athlete? You're seriously going to play that card?

You want to honestly tell me you've never said a pro athlete had a bad day or sucked?

Should we just shut down the internet then?

If James' shooting was slightly above "wretched", the Cavs would have won. It's just an opinion. Feel free to disagree without getting all dramatic.

You act as if Lebron just tanked the games and he sucks because of it which couldn't be further from the truth. They played excellent defense against him, the best he's seen all year - and it effected his play. Big surprise. He could of done much worse.

They watched a tape of how San Antonio defended him last year.

Of course, that kind of '1-player-targetted-by-5-guys' defense only works if nobody else steps up.

I don't put all the blame on the other four guys though (and certainly none on LeBron, which is ridiculous IMO). The Cavs play some pretty good D, but on the other end of the court... boy. Stagnant would be the kindest way to put it. A few plays that don't involve a couple of meaningless passes before isolating LeBron would be nice. The Cavs have some shooters now, the problem is that they just don't run anything for them. LeBron finds the open guys once he's doubled or drawn the D in on a drive, but that's the only time guys like Wally and co. get good looks.

Got it. As usual the Boston faithful never lost their support for the C's. The bandwagon phenomena happens in other, lesser fanbases, not in New England. Sorry, forgot you guys are so good.

Maybe not you, but like 95% of the Boston cockjockeys never gave a fuck about the Celtics for the last 5 years and probably couldn't name any player other than Pierce.

What the hell are you talking about? I have nothing to do with New England other than rooting for the Celtics. I hate the Patriots with a passion and would stand up and cheer if that franchise folded tomorrow.

I wasn't saying Celtics fans were better or worse than any other fans. I just think it's a silly thing to bring up and one of my pet peeves during sports discussons. It was annoying when Bibby said it (especially since most of the people that attended the playoff series needed to ask for directions to Philips Arena), and it's annoying now. I doubt Cavs were selling out seats in 02-03.

The point is that you were "waiting for someone to come up with the bandwagon nonsense" so you could rip it or "roll eyes" at it away, like it is something to scoff it or that doesn't exist for Celtics fans. If that's not what you meant, well, you need to work on your language skills (and I suspect your language skills are just fine).

Your message was that accusing anyone who is a C fan of bandwagonism is ridiculous, and I find the idea that the Celtic fanbase is somehow devoid of bandwagonism to be one of the most absurd concepts I have heard uttered by a sports fan on this board in some time, and it smacks of the type of elitism I hear often from New England fans. You may not be a New Englander, but choose carefully the company you keep, no?

Shrug. I can't speak for most Celtics fans since I live in Atlanta, but it seems like most of the people posting in this thread have been talking about them for a while. Hell, I remember making a post wondering if the Blount for Olowokandi trade would help us. Heh.

Nope, I never said it didn't exist for Celtics fans. I think it's "nonsense" because it exists for fans of most teams, and the comment I responded to seemed directed to the C's fans in this thread, and not C's fans in general. In that context, I do find it to be inaccurate as I said in my post to steve. I especially find it hypocritical to come from Hawks or Cavs fans for reasons I've stated in earlier posts.

I am of the opinion you don't know enough about the C fans in this thread to say for sure how much they fit into stevew's comment, and I would guess they are as representative a slice of a fanbase as anyone, and there are doubtless members here that have paid the Celtics a whole lot more attention this year than last year, or the previous five or ten years. I don't know either, but I have precedent to back me up--it is entirely likely the status quo is just as true here.

stevew is a Cavs fan, so you can take it up with him if you view him as a bandwagon fan, but I am unattached to either team, so I hope you will view this as fairer, more unbiased (or at least less hypocritical) commentary.

Few different points to hit here.-This is the 2nd most ridiculous thing in the thread. The Celtics are my team, but during the regular season, they weren't my favorite team to watch - that would be Golden State - because it was generally "ugly", defensive basketball. After 66 wins in the regular season and 8 more in the playoffs, those missed shots stop being luck and start being good defense.

- The most ridiculous thing is Molson's claim that LeBron is to blame for the Cavs loss. He needs to work on his outside shot, and he really needs to stop settling for/shooting 3's (game 6 vs. the Pistons aside), but as others said, without LeBron that's a lottery team at best.

- I don't know why this bandwagon talk came up in this thread (or why lately it always seems to be mentioned whenever Boston sports teams do well) but can we just leave that out of this? There's obviously a huge number of bandwagon Pink Hat fans for every successfull team, but this is FOFC, not the MBTA. There's 3-4 Celtics fans posting in this thread, but we've all been C's fans as far back as I remember. We just didn't post heavily in past year's Playoffs Threads because of the whole lottery thing.

- While this might finally have been the game that gets Pierce mentioned with the other elite talents, was I the only one disappointed with his offensive effort in the 2nd half? I'm sure he was tired, but most possessions he would walk up after everyone else and stand 5 feet beyond the 3-pt line unless/until he was passed the ball. Considering he was being guarded by LeBron, the best(only) offensive player for the Cavs, allowing him to rest for 10-15 seconds each time is inexcusable. I hope the decision not to ever run Pierce through off-ball screens was Doc's, but it was still quite annoying to see a player on fire with 35+ points standing around while Rajon Rondo, PJ Brown and Eddie House dominated the ball.

The bandwagon argument is ridiculous and irrelevant. The Cavs lost and their fans can't bash the Celtics since the Celtics just defeated the Cavs so they bash the Celtics fans and label all of them here as bandwagoners. Every team has them to it's silly to cry about it and it just makes you look like a sore loser. But the Celtics sucked last year! Whatever helps you sleep at night.

Anyway, we now have the inevitable matchup between the Celtics and Pistons. Should be another excellent series. How effective will Paul Pierce be with Tayshaun Prince guarding him? How hurt is Billups and will he be able to take advantage of his size over Rondo? Hamilton vs. Allen, KG vs. Sheed, McDyess, Maxil. I can't wait! I'd like to see Spurs vs. Lakers in the West. I've got a feeling the Spurs will come out on top tonight in New Orleans.

Guys, there seems to be some kind of conspiracy. Last night (I'm in europe) I thought I was watching Game 7 of the Celtics-Cavs series. What I saw was one of the ugliest contests ever. One of the "teams" did nothing on offense other than set an occassional pick for their designated scorer, who took so many bad shots that I was laughing. This morning I checked the news and apparently there was an "epic" battle. Where was this game? Epic? An epic thug-fest where some guy wearing Kevin Garnett's jersey hid from the action and then choked on a jumper that could have sealed the deal. Some guy who was supposed to be Ray Allen made a cameo appearance and picked up a bunch of fouls before the real Ray Allen showed up at the end to make a pair of free throws. And the King? Are you kidding me? Can we please, PLEASE get this guy a coach. I think Tim Floyd could have coached Cleaveland to a sweep. The only guy who played well was Pierce, who was great. Reading the media's fawning over this game makes me question all of the "great" games I never saw. Does anyone have any stats on Lebron's pass to shoot ratio? I think it might have approached Jordan's in the classic game against the Celtics. Hmmm, against the Celtics.
My favorite in yesterday's game was when Cleveland came out of a timeout. I had already been joking with my friends about "i wonder who's going to shoot this time," and there was Lebron in a set play after a time-out, and I said "no, really, he's going to pass this time because Mike brown just drew up a play." Lebron made two pathetic fakes like he was passing and launched again. And at the end the game was close so it was a classic. Thank God Cleveland lost.

I think they were still pissed off about the Harper for Ferry trade.

How many Cavs fans gave a shit before LeBron came along?

This thread is about as entertaining as the last two minutes of a regular season NBA game.

And for the Celtics.

2006-07 690,576 16,843
2005-06 692,513 16,890
2004-05 656,081 16,001
2003-04 664,248 16,201
2002-03 709,049 17,294
2001-02 659,751 16,091
2000-01 629,201 15,346
1999-00 683,608 16,673

The last time C's fans were uninterested as Cavs were in '02-'03 was 1975.

Feel free to add to the discussion at any time. (though I suspect you just said this because you think you're funny)

I was talking about Pierce's freethrow where it almost missed but bounced in.

If I talked about the playoffs, I'd be discussing it with myself. Must've missed the thread title of "Who has the biggest whiny bandwagon fanbase?"

Fair enough and agreed Ronnie.

Boston fans are really uptight. Thankfully their time has come to pay the Billups.

It has nothing to do with my fanbase, it's just that my #1 message board pet peeve is people who drop into a thread just to say that the whole conversation sucks. That's what I was responding to.

I like this.

My #1 message board pet peeve is when people take a thread off topic with a pissing match. That's what I was responding to.

And just for the record, just because someone doesn't have 100 posts in a thread, it doesn't mean he or she "just dropped in."

I don't really follow the NBA all that closely. I keep tabs on how the Pistons are doing, but have probably watched a grand total of 15 minutes of NBA basketball this year (all playoffs).

That said, what accounts for such a ridiculous home court advantage? Does the home team get that many more free throw opportunities?

My apologies for interrupting this fascinating debate with something vaguely on-topic. I beg the board's forgiveness for this faux pax.


Every time I turned on the TV the last couple weeks and Cavs-Celtics was being discussed, it was A) Why can't Boston win on the road, and B) What the heck is wrong with LeBron James. So I think it isn't accurate that he'll take zero heat for it inasmuch as he was already taking a fair amount earlier in the series when he deserved it(the last three or four games he shot a much better rate than the first half of the series). I do give him some blame, but I don't think it's accurate to say that he's underacheived compared to previously with the same cast, since the cast isn't the same(two starters are now playing for the Bulls) and Boston is a better defensive team than he's faced with the possible exception of SA last year and that didn't turn out so well for him.

Might Cleveland have won if he'd played better? Sure. I also think they'd have been more likely to win before the trade of Hughes and Gooden, or if Sczerbiak had provided the shooting he was brought in to provide, or if Gibson had played the way he did against Detroit last year, etc. There's plenty of blame to go around and I wouldn't land a particularly large amount of it at LeBron's feet, particularly since they nearly beat a clearly superior team.

Oh, and I say the winner of tonight's Hornets-Spurs game will be the champ this year.

lol nice foul by Ginobili there.

It's an anomaly this year. Same round last year was 13-10 for the home team, 13-8 the year before.

Ughhh. I despise the Spurs.

Ah well, Spurs-Pistons, here we come...

Still, Hornets are some bench depth and a SG away from being a very, very good team.

Lakers in 6

I have Pistons and Spurs each winning in six. The Lakers are certainly capable of beating SA, but their lack of a bench is a big issue and they don't have anyone who can handle Duncan in the post.

BTW Tyson Chandler was most impressive tonight. Duncan couldn't do a thing against him late.

The better question is who is Duncan going to guard?

Duncan will almost certainly guard Gasol, it's the only matchup that makes sense.

With Duncan on Gasol and Bowen on Kobe, Lakers should be looking to get the ball to Odom in the post.

I'd argue that the Hornets are a very, very good team as-is. They're some bench depth and a SG away from being flat-out amazing.

Agreed, Hornets are pretty darn good and other than LA and Portland I can't think of a team in the West with a brighter future.

As far as posting up Odom -- that may work some but it's not really his strength and I don't see him doing much in there against Thomas, though he could certainly have success against Oberto with a big edge in athleticism much as West had in the last series.

He's not a "back the guy down" kind of player, but his athleticism works well enough for him when he turns his back to the basket. He has some nice explosive spins out of the post and finishes well in traffic.

Lakers do have a size advantage. I would imagine Lakers can hid Walton and Rad Mon on Bowen. He did torch the Lakers for quite a few 3's earlier in the year however.

Odom will be the key player

Actually, Odom might be the best player on the team with his back to the basket, and has been for some time. The problem has been getting him to go to the block and to stay there long enough to receive a pass. He isn't all that wild about playing from the block.

David Stern and all the ABC Executives are on the verge of a heart attack.

They are facing the dream Lakers vs. Celtics match-up... or....

the dreaded Spurs vs. Pistons ratings killer!

:D

I really do think the Lakers will take the Spurs next round. My impression of SA is that they needed absolutely every ounce of guile and grizzled veteran experience to eke this one out over a playoff novice that really looked like a playoff novice in its first game 7. I don't think that they will have the same advantage over the Lakers. I just feel like their window is almost closed.

The Hornets' window is just starting to open. More so than in any other sport, in the NBA it's basically impossible for a young fresh team to maneuver all the way to a championship in its first playoff try. They are going to be around a long time and I can't wait. I feel like New Orleans is finally going to get a damn pro sports championship from this team within the next few years. Barring devastating injuries, Chris Paul is going to win at least one ring in his career.

I think the NBA will get its wish for the Lakers in the finals, but I don't know how they're going to be able to get the Celtics there without their interference being incredibly blatant. I'm thinking Lakers-Pistons. Hey, it's still a classic 80s rematch.

That or taking the initiative to actually shoot more. Some of his 4-6 games are frustrating. No matter what you think of Kobe, Odom does see the ball more then just 6 times a game

The negativity on this board sucks! j/k

But seriously, saying the Celtics won't make it there without blatant interference? No, they don't look like they are going steamroll the Pistons, but they do still have home-court and are still a very good team.

We'll see what happens tonight, but I still (blatant homerism) see C's in 6.

All 8:30 starts for detoilet/c's. That's goddamn fucking ridiculous.

They don't look like they could steamroll the Grizzlies right now.

I dunno, I know there's more to this team than what I've seen thus far in the playoffs, but I have yet to be impressed. We'll see. Maybe they've just been saving up the good basketball for the conference finals.

What's wrong with 8:30 starts? That's prime time, baby.

What start times would have made you happy?

earlier obviously

what a joke for kids especially

don't even get me started on the 9pm finals games

6 weeks from now, when the finals start, kids will all be home from school for the summer.

so. doesn't mean they can all stay up all night to watch these things.

8:30 isn't too late. It'll be 5:30 on the West Coast. That seems pretty reasonable.

The kids should be able to stay up to catch most of the game. It will build character.

Detroit fans routinely have to suffer through 10:00 pm starts for hockey playoff games.

An 8:30 start is nothing.

The Spurs have had some bad losses, but (a) the Hornets are much tougher competition than the Hawks and Cavs, and (b) the Spurs won a game 7 on the road in a very tough environment, one of the harder things to do in sports. That said, I don't see them getting past LA either.

Again, I'm sure Boston didn't win 66 games and have a lights-out record against the West by accident, but it's just really hard to see how they managed to do that based on their playoff performance.

Just a heads-up that the draft lottery airs from 8-8:30 (probably more like 8:22-8:30) on ESPN tonight.

The only time that makes people on the East Coast happy is a time when people on the West Coast are still at work. 8:30 is a fair compromise, and I imagine there's been a little research into this to maximize viewership.

bulls jump into the top 3 picks

Wow...Bulls get the top pick.

Minnesota #3
Miami #2
Chicago #1

Derrick Rose back to his hometown?

Well I just shit my pants.

Boy, Mike must be kicking himself for passing up Chicago for NY.

lol seriously

Tough to pick who goes #1 now. If I'm Chicago I probably go with Beasley, which would probably please the Heat as well.

Knicks can kiss goodbye their hopes of getting a quality bigman or PG.

Boy I hope Chicago takes Beasley.

Just got tickets for Game 3 of the ECF. I'm pumped.

That Allen 3 was a chance to make a HUGE statement, his confidence has to be completely shot.

poor Ray-Ray :(