beat ya to it. But DAMM that's amusing

edit: as someone said over on SoSH:

Unless they're again reporting this, the slight elbow discomfort was reported about a week ago and was the reason that Felix didn't pitch this weekend in New York.

$28 million for Clemens, pro-rated to roughly $4.5 million per month.

Agreed. At least he's shown his true colours here. I can't say I'm completely surprised that this steroid enhanced monster decided to go for the biggest payday, rather than the good story/better team in Boston.

I hope he gets hit by a comebacker in his first minor league start.

I know, it's not nice. But ever since Gord Ash dealt him for a box of chocolate chip cookie and a Wal-Mart Gift Card a few years ago, I've had very little use for him.

I'm very pleased to see Peavy pitching the way he has and not pitching through an injury as he was last season.

hey - unless your Clemens bashing, save it for another day.

Agreed and I'm taking it all the way to the fantasy bank :D

SI

...




























*** WARNING: RANT OF A QUASI-POLITICAL NATURE ***


Sorry, guys, the baseball train may fall of the tracks for the next few posts. But I'm getting sick and tired of being lectured by Joe Morgan and the ESPN universe about how we are all racists here while I'm trying to watch a game between two pitchers who have the potential to be superstars. Yes, I know, consider the source. But, still- it was ESPN's top news story for the day until Clemens blew up the news wire.

For those of you who were mercifully spared this news byte, apparently, we, baseball fans, are a bunch of racists who hate Barry Bonds because he's black. No, not because of the cloud of the steroid controversy or because he's an asshat in a majority (not all) of his public settings. No, it's because he's black.

I just don't know where to start. Maybe first with it being that he's breaking the record of a black man. Right? Even tho it was before I was born, I didn't imagine all the stories about Hank Aaron getting death threats because he was black and breaking the hallowed record held by Babe Ruth, right? Mark McGwire didn't magically break his record and I was just asleep at the wheel and missed that the record is now be back in the hands of whitey so I should cheer against Bonds?

Speaking of which, how is Mark McGwire doing these days? I heard he had a bit of a rough go of it this past season, trying to get into the Hall of Fame, despite some great career numbers. Rafael Palmeiro? How about Sammy Sosa? None of them were black last I checked and all have horrible public images now due to the steroid controversy.

And, unfortunately, this is where the rant will probably go awry but I think it needs to be said. It's amazing that an almost identical 68 vs 67% of blacks and whites agree that either steroids or race are the reason why he's "being treated unfairly" but the split is 1-66 with whites but 27-41 with blacks (tho one could argue if he is actually being treated unfairly). Shame on the 27% of blacks who think Barry Bonds is "being treated unfairly because of race". You're all idiots and racists. All of you.

And shame on Jayson Stark for this paragraph: "We're not so sure they're right in attributing the alleged mistreatment of this particular historical figure to racially charged motives. But for nearly all white fans who think Bonds has been treated unfairly to say race has nothing to do with it is stunning. We say to those fans: You're kidding yourselves if that's what you truly think."

Racism will keep lessening it's grasp on people as two things happen: 1) the old and idiotic who can't get past skin color as a determining factor for anything die out and 2) those who continue to keep pushing it and seeing it when it's not in play just stop doing it. Then we'll all be in a better world.

SI

ya know SI...i'm going to give you props for coming out and saying something that I have always wanted to say, but that is a very unpopular opinion to voice. You need backing up with it. And I absolutely agree with you, in this case and in a lot of other cases.

i'm not saying there aren't legitimate instances out there where race and racism is a factor, but I think that all too often it's a knee-jerk reaction and a knee-jerk blame simply because it generates controversy and headlines.

Like if joe morgan was saying it was because of steroids, there wouldn't be anything for him to go on a rant about. making it about race gives him a pulpit to stand on so he can hear himself talk.

I still havn't figured out why other members of the community buy into something like that...maybe someone on the board can help me with that. In something like this where it's clear it's not about race, why are 27% of black people answering the survey blaming it on race? What's their motive? Or are they just ignorant?

I think I did have one are where what I wrote wasn't clear.

First, here's the link to the survey, so we're all playing with the same data: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2861930

Second, it's 27% of blacks who thought he was being treated unfairly (subgroup A) thought it was because of race (subgroup B). The net answer can be seen in the last blank. That said, a full 46% of blacks think he has been treated unfairly and 27% of those think it's because of race for 12% total of blacks surveyed claim he has been treated unfairly and it is because of race. It's not the 1 in 4 of 27% but it's basically 1 in 8 who took the survey think everyone is a racist who hates Bonds primarily for that reason and that's just a load of crap.

SI

yep. Even with your newly revised data, I agree. That's fucked up.

We're racists but Barry Bonds is not?

All well said SI.

I didn't realize anyone disliked Bonds for merely "being black." There are a laundry list of other reasons for doing so, some of which are as simple as the fact that he is a very good hitter on an opposing team.

No. It's cause he's black.

Sammy Sosa isn't black?

Yup. Sosa is a good African name :)

He's Latino

Ever since Oct 3 1995, poll results like this don't surprise me.

I think it's fairly obvious that people are interpreting the numbers incorrectly. This is not a story because of the "negative" numbers attributted to white votes; it's the "positive" numbers attributed to black votes. It seems clear to me that the difference in the numbers is due to blacks looking past his issues because of his race, not whites holding the color of his skin against him. It's the OJ Simpson Effect, plain and simple. There were a significant number of blacks who probably thought OJ was guilty, but they were happy he got off because he was black. Same principle here.

Although I guess I'm lying to myself, I can honestly say race has never figured into the equation when I've thought of Barry Bonds. I'm probably not as deadset against the thought of him breaking the record than most, either.

Exactly.

Hmmm...why would he go to Boston? They supposedly didn't want him until after the break, and after the way he was run out of town (because he was "done") I don't blame him. I would love to watch him throw at Manny (the true prima donna) for another season. When you've won 350 games and completely dominated like no pitcher in the last 40 years, I think you've earned the right to play on your terms. And he never tested positive or was asked to testify. :D

You're kidding yourselves if you think Bonds hate has nothing to do with race.

Everyone had suspected that McGwire was a user from back in the bash bros. days. But the Justice Dept. specifically targeted BALCO because Bonds was breaking home run records.

Don't tell me that it's becuase Bonds was a jackass. Look back at Big Mac's comments. He was a huge sourpuss during the record chase. But the media latched on to anything positive they possibly could to paint him as a good guy.

Bonds may be an asshole. He is almost certainly a PED cheater. But he's not the only one in either regard. It's not all about race. It's not even mostly about race. But it has something to do with race.

There sre plenty of other steroid jerks out there. But we don't tear after all of them.

But I think the poll is partly to blame. It's asking poll respondants to simplify things down to a simple yes/no (or more appropriately: black/white). When people are asked to provide responses to these simplified questions, it sets them up to answer what they're not truly feeling.

I think he is *somewhat* being treated unfairly, since out of all the suspected-but-not-yet-found-guilty steroid users, he certainly gets most of the heat. But I think the reality is that there are many factors why he is getting the most heat, race being a small contributing factor; his success being the primary contributing factor.



That said, I was also watching the game last night and agreed that Joe Morgan just needed to stfu. I felt bad for his broadcast partner, who was having a tough time dancing around the topic.

There's a huge difference between McGwire and Bonds. Bonds has been a surly jackass for longer than he's been considered a prolific HR hitter. Back when he was a young All-Star, he was known as an asshole. That reputation was cemented long before he started hitting HRs at the rate he hits them now, and then admitted to taking steroids. McGwire's connection was to a substance that was legal at the time, and nobody really cared about until that Orioles pitcher died during Spring Training. He was never considered anything but a private person, and he actually became something of a good guy when he came to STL (from my impression, with the charity stuff and all). And lucky for him, he was long gone from the game when his name was linked to something more than Andro. And I don't think he's been treated well at all since his testimony on the Hill, so much so that a sure-fire HoF career may not make it to Cooperstown.

You can take Bonds out of context and say that he's representative of how we treat black players, but it's just not true. Look at other black players, like Ken Griffey, Jr., - he's never been an outgoing, nice guy, in my eyes. In fact, I still remember seeing him give an interview after the HR hitting contest in Atlanta, I think it was, where he was saying the right things but looked and sounded like he'd rather be anywhere else in the world, and no one gave him crap for it. Between his so-so personality and his injuries, you'd think we'd be all over him because he's black. Hasn't happened.

No, Barry Bonds is a unique player who is getting a ton of shit for 3 things - he's an asshole to everyone he meets, he's a great player who is closing in on one of the greatest records ever, and he'e been all but proven (by his own admissions, leaked or not) to have taken substances that people believe have aided his performance. Sure, there are people out there who will add on top of that their hate for blacks, just like there will be people who would probably would never vote for someone like Obama simply because he is black, but that doesn't change the underlying facts.

"[Freddie] Garcia bruised and scraped his left shin in the collision, raising question as to whether he will be able to make his scheduled start Monday night in the opener of a three-game series at Arizona. Garcia, who was running to try to catch a fly ball in center field, toppled onto the cart used by the grounds crew and was clearly in pain. He was quickly carted off the field on the vehicle."

If you're going to injure yourself, I guess the best way is to fall onto a cart that can take you off the field.

By the way, that Clemens announcement drew comparisons to Steve Nebraska's debut at Yankee Stadium.

Of course he is. But not "African-American."

Gotta love stupid categories.

God obviously hates the Phillies. sigh.

Joel Zumaya looks like he's going to be out for awhile. He heard a loud "pop" in his middle finger and had "shocking pain." I'm assuming that's not a good sign...

Thursday night...Jeff Weaver pitching in Detroit. Last game he won was against the Tigers in the World Series. I hope they help his ERA stay "aloft."

Diamondbacks finally beat the Mets in "Shea West".

Both of these guys are the sons of major leaguers. Spoiled brat rich kids are pretty much similar no matter what their skin colour is. I don't think exposes much. The record shouldn't change people's indignation at the unsubstantiated perception that Barry has cheated.

I think that's the point.

If you want to be disgusted. Be disgusted at ALL of the high-tech cheating that went on in baseball, that still goes on, that goes on en masse in other sports that no one seems to expose. Be annoyed, frustrated and aghast at the fact that owners, GMs and everyone else turned a blind eye to what was happening because it was part of the status quo in the sport and now has gone underground.

All I know is, if Barry has managed to get to where he has, by cheating..in some small or large measure, that whatever stuff he took should be sold for a lot of money and be investigated to see if it can't solve some rare diseases that scientists are confounded by.

All of the conjecture about what he's perceived to have done versus what he really did is not known. And that's what all of this is about. People just guessing, taking small shreds of 'evidence' to create their own story about the 'asshole' who didn't kiss their societal butts because they feel like athletes should pray at the altar of "fans first."

The legacy of a game that was tainted by its very inception has very weak legs to stand on when you start to get into debates about "purity v. taint" of its records.

Second player in a row that I've dropped from my fantasy team just before he hits the DL.

But the point is, none of this has to do with race. I think the "evidence" of what Bonds says he did is pretty black and white. Even if you want to take his word for it that it was unknowing, that doesn't change the fact that he took an illegal substance. I'm not referring to his head size, etc., but just the black and white of his leaked testimony.

Everything you're railing against cuts across race. There's no racial element to any of it. Yes, a bunch of players cheat, and have cheated, for decades. At this point, only one of them is about to break a huge record. So of course he's going to become the focal point of the rage/indignation of the many who see that as an affront to the sport. No one cares if Alex Sanchez used, because he's insignificant. Even Giambi and Sheffield can skirt by (I don't see anyone treating Sheffield differently because of his race) because, in the long run, they're just a couple of the thousands of really good baseball players in history. They aren't about to alter history in a tangible way. If we had some sort of proof similar to Bonds that Clemens used, he'd be similarlly villified (even moreso than going back to the Yankees!). I can guarantee his possible push to break Warren Spahn's post-1930 record for wins would be largely - hugely - discounted. This is simply not a racial issue, except to those for whom any issue is racial. And those people really don't, or shouldn't, count as legitimate voices in our society.

I hear ya, but there's something illogical or incomplete about this kind of argument. Pointing out that a hated black guy is also a jerk, and then pointing out that there are nice black guys who aren't hated doesn't really prove anything. It's kind of like the whole, "Sure X player used steroids, but he still had to work out a ton and you still need good hand-eye cordination to hit all those home runs" line of thinking. (Just because there's other, more easily understood reasons for a phenomenon, that doesn't necessarily elimiate ALL possible intangible contributing causes)

Of course, there's no way to prove one way or another that Bonds' perception is worse because he was black. Saying he's "bad anyway" certainly isn't proof of anything. It's just opinion, but the viciousness that's directed to Bonds for being surly to the media and using the same performance enhancing drugs that almost everyone else does always seemed a little over the top to me.

2-3 months out for Zumaya if it's anything at all like the injury described in the link:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2063980

Coupled with what he's achieved already and what he's about to do? I don't think it's over the top at all. Heck, this country couldn't care less about cycling, and once the dude who won last year came up as testing positive, the country turned on him in a big way (well, as much as we cared). Didn't matter if he was white or black. The dude was considered a fraud. I don't think there's much difference, regardless of whether Bonds has tested positive or not.

You're right it's impossible to prove one way or the other. But if race was as big an issue as some say, then it should be affecting other guys, in some manner. There are always going to be the people out there who have racial motivations for attacking a minority. But by and large, I refuse to accept that your average white sports fan is of the mindset that, "It sucks that an asshole steroid user is about to break the HR record, but it sucks even more that he's black." Which is, in a nutshell, the gist of how the poll results are being spun.

In other news, Major League Baseball has flatly denied the validity of this survey. They've conducted 3 independent surveys using data they won't give out that all find that there is absolutely no difference between white fans and black fans.

They didn't mention that the only people polled were NBA refs.

Well played. :D

On a side note, I HATE Roger Clemens.

Is that because he's white?

Joe Mauer is on the DL now with a strained quadriceps muscle. But it sounds like the team is afraid that there might be a tear in there, which would keep him out longer than 15 days. Seems like no one in the Twins offense can stay healthy right now.

http://www.startribune.com/blogs/neal/?p=109

Never. Race is never a factor in hating a player.

ESPN. Get a clue. The whole country could care less about Roger Clemens and the Yankees!!!

God..did you hear that chick..I think it was Andrea Kremer, after the Clemens announcement? It sounded like she was gonna have an orgasm. Ridiculous.

I wonder if you mean the Yankee Homer: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suzyn_Waldman

she's originally from boston? originally a sox fan? I don't think so. No self-respecting person who would ever call themselves a red sox fan would be caught dead working for the evil empire for any amount of money.

Well, Guitar Hero 2 did come out for the XBox recently. Just sayin' ;)

SI

Apparently I still live under a rock. I saw at Sportsline that the Hall of Fame Game is in 13+ days. I thought that was kind of early since I knew Tony and whathisface won't be inducted until August. I looked it up at the HoF site and they have been playing the HoF game in May/June the past 4 years. Why did they move it out of Induction Weekend?

I dunno. I hate Barry Bonds because he's black.

I mean, Joe Morgan says so, it must be true.

(I hate him first and foremost because he's a Giant. Whether or not he's a cheater - and I think he is - is totally irrelevant to the hate!)

Incidentally, 5 innings, 79 pitches, and 12 strikeouts for Brad Penny so far against Florida. He struck out 9 of the first 11 he faced.

I REALLY love myself.


Signed,

Roger Clemens

dola,

Plus I'm making $156,000 per day. Get over it, haters.


Signed,

Roger Clemens

The bitterness towards Clemens is ridiculous - heck, his "I'm retiring" gig 10 times over is annoying, but why the hell shouldn't he make as much money as he wants?

Again, see references earlier in this thread to "Asshat, re: Bonds, Barry"

SI

Boston would've provided much less pressure, almost just as much money and a great story for baseball...even if he didn't do well there (and it's hard to imagine he wouldn't.).

With the Yanks? He joins a sinking ship. A pretty expensive one, sure. But a sinking ship no less.

But I don't even care about that. I'm pissed about how he got out of Toronto, when no one else wanted his washed up ass. I blame the GM for making that deal, to be sure, but...that doesn't mean I have to like or respect this money grubbing, steroid induced tool.

I hope he gets hit by a bat.

Penny with 14 K's, 0 BB's through 7 innings. Career high K total, pocketed the ball after the inning - he's apparently done for the night.

Again, I see this as "I'm jealous and bitter, re: SI". We expect the players to view the teams the same way we do - as entertainment, not as a job, which is beyond ridiculous. I appreciate Bonds for my team - I don't expect him to take a cheap discount because it offends my sensibilities that he wants to make money.

:D

A great story for baseball? Seriously? I lived in Boston - the Sox are a 2nd team to me, but why on earth should Clemens take a pay cut to go to the team that told him he was washed up? Again, make the case for me that his individual decision should be a result of your (or my) wishes - would we make personal decisions based only on what our customers feel?

Again, I don't think the hatred at Clemens comes off so much this time out because of the money but because he has a history of being a mercenary. Not only that, but a two-faced mercenary. It's no different than what so many other players do, he just does it on a grander and more ostentatious scale.

I don't recall the last time a player who had retired came back out of retirement during the 7th inning stretch of an ongoing game in Yankee Stadium. And this isn't to say "7th inning stretch of an ongoing game in Yankee Stadium" exclusively just because we all know it hasn't happened before, but on that big of a stage. Most players have a press conference, but, no, Roger has to do it in front of 50K fans because he's an attention whore.

If we want to get into baseball economics, sure, that's a messy debate I'll gladly go into. But, considering it was between the two giant monoliths of slime, it's not like I have a horse in that race.

SI

I think by being the greatest righthanded pitcher in modern history, you are allowed to be as pretentious as you wish. I wish Roger a lot of luck, I just hope he's not a juicer like I fear he probably is. All in all one of my favorite players to watch when he's in the zone.

The fan in me is bitter that he thought my team wasn't good enough.

The capitalist mercenary in me is happy for him, that he found a suitor to succumb to his wishes to do what he loves to do, well into his 40s, in a sport where that doesn't happen much.

Personally, I have very little positive karma for the guy. Add that to the fact that there was 2/3rds chance that he'd go play for a rival team to my favourite and that means that I hate the guy on principle.

It doesn't matter if he decided to give his entire salary to charity. I'd still want to see him fail miserably.

So in short, who cares what they paid him.

And he was washed up before he left Boston. He went to Toronto, took 'roids and proved them wrong much like Barry wanted to prove his critics wrong. He's since traveled the baseball world as some sort of diva who expects adulation at every turn.

Sure he's good.

That doesn't mean I have to like him.

I think all this talk about the Yankees being a sinking ship is waaay premature; with that lineup and a potential rotation of Wang, Hughes, Clemens, Pettite and Mussina, I think they'll give Boston a good run.

You guys sound like the Eastern States Promotional Network.

CY for the Pads pitched another gem on the road against the Braves and Trevor's changeup has been wicked of late.

Oh, 1B AGonzales continues to mash the ball. The trade with the Rangers last season to bring in CY and AGon is going down as one of the most lopsided in Pads history.

Bolded for emphasis.

Bring instant replay to baseball (Mets-Giants).

ugh. Mets got fucked then fucked themselves

Yeah, they've had problems defensively in the past (despite great D from guys like Reyes and Beltran), but this season it seems like as soon as one error is made, the floodgates open and everyone follows.

All this Clemens hate is silly. Why should he ever play for the Sox. They tried to more or less screw his career and ran him out of town. If I were him, I would've made that announcement during the 7th inning stretch while urinating on a Sox cap. He's a mercenary and makes no bones about it. He's got 350 wins and is the best pitcher in the last 40 years. If you want him to leave his family and put his old body through more stress, you will have to pay and do it on his terms. Good for him. Guess what, a lot more people than the Rocket have been hired guns. People couldn't stop licking Ray Bourque's balls even though he left the only team he had ever played for in like 15 seasons to be a mercenary. There are plenty of others.

The fact that he did it the way he did may not have anyathing to do with him but more so the other attention whore in the Bronx.

I knew the Reds bullpen was going to be bad this year, but my God they are truly awful. Maybe the worst they've ever had, and that's saying something with their recent history.

Speaking of instant replay, the Yankees were on the wrong side (for them) of one of the worst, most obvious missed calls I can remember seeing. Dude stole 2nd and was tagged out so far away from the base, from the replay it looked like he was 2 feet from the bag. I have no idea what the ump was looking at, and why Cano didn't raise a stink. I assume that's why Mattingly didn't go out there to bitch about it. Next guy up hits a single, game tied. Then Rivera gives up a HR in the top of the 9th, and Yanks lose! The look on Rivera's face when Beltre took him deep - he looked like Sosa hitting a big fly and then realizing after his hop that it barely reached the warning track. I'm thinking we're seeing the beginning of the end for Rivera.

Is there a reason why a PED suspension has gotten absolutely no publicity? This was linked on the ESPN Insider's "local links" section, and is not only on the front page, it's not even a news item on the MLB page:


Rays Reliever Salas Suspended 50 Games

Skip directly to the full story.
By MARC LANCASTER The Tampa Tribune
Published: May 8, 2007


ST. PETERSBURG - The Devil Rays will have two new pitchers in their bullpen tonight, one by choice and one by order of Major League Baseball.

MLB announced Monday that Rays right-hander Juan Salas has been suspended 50 games after testing positive for a performance-enhancing substance. The ban is the first handed out this year and the fourth for a major-league player since the new, tougher drug policy was put into place prior to the 2006 season.

Under the terms of that policy, players are tested at least twice each year - once during spring training and again on a randomly selected date during the regular season, with additional tests possible. It is not known if Salas' positive test came in spring training or during the season; that information is confidential, according to MLB officials.

Salas, 28, will begin serving his suspension today. He will not be paid his $382,000 salary during the ban and won't be eligible to return until July 2, one week before the All-Star break. A second positive test would bring a 100-game suspension and a third, a lifetime ban.

Rays officials had no comment Monday beyond a two-sentence statement issued through the team's communications department:

"The Tampa Bay Devil Rays fully support Major League Baseball's drug testing policy. We will do all we can to help Juan get his career headed back on a positive course."
Salas' agent, Myles Kahn, did not return a phone message left Monday

I thought we already covered this. PEDs outrage is reserved when they are taken by 4-5 specific power hitters. PEDs are a-okay for all other hitters and ALL pitchers.

Yes, and we also reserve front page news for inaccurate surveys that claim the white man (fans and refs) is the devil.

It was the top story on Yahoo MLB for a while yesterday because that's where I saw it.

And when did "PED" become an acronym?

SI

When I got too lazy to type the whole thing out.

Uh oh: According to ESPN - Mike Mussina says that Roger Clemens is a #2 or #3 starter and not an ace. "We have to remember" that Roger is almost 45 years old.

Welcome to Hollywood, Roger!

I believe another pitcher, attached to the other NY team, may have a pretty valid argument with such an assessment ;).

I don't recall Greg Maddux ever playing for a NY team. :)

The Maddux vs Martinez debate is going to be one of those classic peak value vs career value things, I think.

Roger Clemens has consistently shat all over the fans of whatever team he plays for. The fact that MLB tolerates, no CELEBRATES, his infantile behavior (along with some others, like Bonds), is one of the main reasons I don't follow baseball anymore. I would sooner watch Desperate Housewives than watch Clemens pitch one inning.

Well, Maddux vs. Clemens vs. Martinez, I guess. And yes, I concur. Though Martinez's peak value is far, far, far above anyone's... even Koufax can't touch him for those 7 seasons when Pedro was God.

I don't think so. In their prime, they both had 7 consecutive seasons with an ERA+ over 160. The difference between them, aside from their K/9 ratio, is Maddux's longevity. Martinez isn't even as good as Maddux, let alone Clemens.

FWIW, I have no problem with Clemens doing what he's doing. Had he chosen Houston or Boston, I'd probably be a happy man. We're at the point where players are making so much money, but pitching effectively much longer, that it seems natural for guys to do this sort of thing. I could see John Smoltz being in the same position in a couple of years. The only two things about Clemens that bothers me are (1) he's doing it for the Yankees, and (2) the whole "being away from the team" thing. But really, if it doesn't bother the other players on his team, why should I care?

Here's the difference, Pedro's 7 consecutive seasons had ERA+ of 221, 160, 245, 285, 189, 196, 212 (average of 215.42). Maddux's were 166, 171, 273, 259, 162, 191, 191 (average of 201.85). Only Walter Johnson matches Pedro's 4 seasons of ERA+ over 200. Now the average ERA+ difference may not seem like much, but that's a difference of 13.5% better than an an average pitcher.

In my lifetime (27 years on May 30), Pedro Martinez has been the greatest pitcher. Maddux and Clemens take close co-2nds.

But the difference isn't so great that it counters Maddux's longevity. It's not like we're comparing Bert Blyleven and Pedro. Maddux was a 1B to Pedro's 1A, plus pitched more effectively for a longer period of time.

Wow, I can't believe people are actually arguing that Pedro was a better pitcher than Rocket or Maddux. Maybe I'm getting old, but I guess 7 seasons of great pitching is where it's at. I don't know how you can compare nearly 350 wins and 7 CY to 200 wins and 3 CY. Pedro was a great pitcher, but not even in the same class as the other 2.

I'd say it comes fairly close to doing so. We are also talking of a pitcher who has a career ERA+ of 160 (best all time) compared to one who's career ERA+ is 144 (Clemens - 8th all time), and one who's at 136 (Maddux, 19th). All are very high, very impressive, and all are first ballot HOFers, but there is a bit of a gap.

Frankly, I'd throw Pedro on the top, mostly for that ungodly 7 year run (which btw, rather than just being "great pitching" was the best 7 year run for any pitcher in the history of baseball), but YMMV.

So is there some reason why Chris Carpenter is out 3 months, but Joel Zumaya is out 12 weeks? Am I supposed to feel better that Zumaya is only going to miss a bunch of weeks, instead of a few months?

I'm not arguing against the 7 year run (by the way, he averaged just barely 200 IP per season for that run), I'm just saying that's not enough to push him to the best pitcher for the past 40 year category. FTR, Clemens from 1986-1992 was also a great run, and he averaged 256+ IP for that stretch. He won 3 CYs despite being robbed of one in 1990.

But we're obviously going to have to agree to disagree ;)

Well, if we are talking about robbed Cy Young awards, I think Pedro is missing 2 ;).

Yeah, one of those "magical" 7 years he only pitched 116 innings.

Actually, he failed to top 200 3 times during that span (116, 199, 186) and barely topped 200 on 2 other occasions (213 and 217). He was great, but I would barely put him in the top 5 ahead of Glavine, Maddux, Clemens, RJ, and maybe one or two others.

Clemens is probably the greatest RH pitcher of the last 50 years. Pedro has the highest peak of any pitcher - ever. The peak vs career arguements are certainly valid. If I had to pick a guy for a career, I'd take Clemens or Maddux - no questions asked. If I had to pick a guy for a season - Pedro's 1999 or 2000 are probably the greatest pitched seasons in history.

I didn't comment on it at the time, but the plate collision between Josh Phelps and Kenji Johjima in the M's/Yankees game on Sunday really pissed me off. Rob Neyer has spent some time over the years decrying the acceptance in baseball of plate collisions, and I agree with him - baseball isn't and shouldn't be a full-contact sport.

A big part of the problem of course is that umpires don't enforce the rule that prohibits catchers from blocking the path to the plate. If catchers are called on that rule violation, that will reduce the incentive for runners to go for the collision.

But in this case, Johjima wasn't blocking the plate, yet Phelps still felt compelled to knock him over in order to jar the ball loose. This is bullshit, and it needs to stop. I'm not a big fan of intentionally plunking batters either, but in this case I was happy that Washburn hit Phelps the next time he was at the plate.

Updated: May 8, 2007, 3:19 PM ET
Mets minor league pitcher suspended 100 games

NEW YORK -- A pitcher in the New York Mets' minor league system was suspended Tuesday for 100 games by the commissioner's office after testing positive for a performance-enhancing substance. Jorge Reyes is the 12th player to be suspended for violating the minor league drug policy and the first to draw a 100-game suspension for a second violation. A 22-year-old native of the Dominican Republic, Reyes made one start this season for Class-A Savannah of the South Atlantic League, allowing no runs on four hits in five innings.

Indeed, and that is where the argument comes down to. For all those who have Koufax up there because of his peak... Pedro's was far better. His peak is so damned amazing (using ERA+, in that peak, he has 4 of the top 25 seasons of all time and 5 of the top 40 - for the other two season, one was limited by injury to 116 innings, but was on pace for being around the 60th greatest season, and the other was an ERA+ of 160, by far his worst season during that run) that it trumps the longevity argument, IMO.

I had a long-running argument with some old guys over at OOTP on this (a Malleus Dei in particular - think of him as a grouchier and more prickly Bucc, without any of the interesting parts) - their entire argument for Koufax came down to "because I said so" and "because I saw him". I don't know about people our age, but Pedro in 1999 was beyond unreal - he was just so much better than the rest of the league.

To me, the most notable part of those seasons was the K/BB ratio - approximately 9 in 1999, and 8 in 2000 - and without giving the HR (Schilling better the ratio once but wasprone in those seasons to the gopher ball).

Good point, Butter.

Too bad everybody else in the thread is too busy talking about the Yankees and Red Sox like every other talking head in America that everyone's sick of. That's ok, you can continue to ignore the American League like any proper baseball fan should while wowing at the Brewers hot start.

It's just a year later than everyone thought. Cleveland, too. Those were everyone's dark horses coming into 2006. It just took a year more of development to materialize.

SI

Rickey doesn't really want to come back...or does he?


But then he says...


I just want him to get into the Hall and be done with it. If wants to come back after that, that's fine. Not because he should. Just saying...