Wouldn't this clear me then? If the WW entered the district and I was there the whole time how could I have been the bad guy?

I already said im sorry lol...your action wont be blocked by me again until day 6. So have fun until then. But yes, im glad you can add credibility to my claims, even if not the facts i present.

It didnt say you were there the whole time, just that you were there. It didnt say if you came and went or stayed the night...it only said that you were the only other player in commerical last night, which can mean you came in for the murder, came in for other reasons, or was there all along.

No complaints as your information seemed to turn up something better than I could ever have done. I guess my main question is probably something I didn't fully grasp since I just skimmed through fast as I got chances here..

You are saying your urchin knew 100% that the only people in commercial district was Tyrith and Barkeep (and the urchin)? THe urchin didn't necessarily see the kill, but saw only those two in the district?

My PM said there was only one other player in the area, you. So either area implies just the death scene and not the whole district(if so, makes you look worse) or your lying.

Barkeep, who do you think was in the district yesterday along with you?

He did not see the kill, but saw the WW break into tyriths home...he was too afriad to go in and watch the WW feed, but he heared it and it was gruesome. He then told me(all in a note) that the only other player he saw was barkeep. He made no mention of seeing the wolf leave, so i assumed barkeep was the WW and turned back into his normal self before leaving.

yesterday being night 1 correct?

To clarify, it said there was only one other person in the area, and that was my BK himself. It was faily clear on that last point.

bolded part mine

if he was the only other person in the area then wouldn't that clear BK as it was the urchin, BK and the WW as the "other" person.

I take other to mean besides tyrith since he never named the WW. Besides, the WW would revert back to normal form after making the kill as to not be seen.

He named two player, tyrith and barkeep...so other to me means barkeep was the only player other then the now mauled to death tyrith in Commercial.

That seems plausible, Blade. However if the urchin was scared by the werewolf (Legitamitely :) ), it seems possible that he was afraid to stay. and reported who was there at the time of the attack.. If this is the case, it does the opposite of implicating Barkeep....it actually exonerates him.

damnit

VOTE BARKEEP

Yes, yesterday being Night 1.

Blade, I'm interested in hearing what kind of defense Barkeep can mount and if others are willing to vouch for him. This is not to dispute your version of events - just trying to get as complete a version of last night as possible.

I think bad guys are going to have to be pretty cautious with their lies this game, especially early on, with the amount of night information being collected.

could the urchin also be the WW? I need to recheck the rules on this

The urchin i paid was not a player in this game i didnt believe. Its possible he is, but i dont think so. Maybe alan can share his thoughts, but my initial PM made it sound like it was just a way for the ability to work

I wasnt sure about barkeep being bad from my PM, but then he made a comment about the WW killing tyrith and now is claiming there was another person in commercial, when my PM says the only person in the area was barkeep.

If he can mount a plausible defense, ok...im not 100% sure on him, but its the best ive got so far

My john. I am a prostitute and learned last night that my john is an innocent. I believe my john on the first night learned the same, though I did not learn that from him.

I'm unsure if I will be in again the rest of the day in a few minutes. I'm guessing I will find myself dead by the end of the day.

So you didnt see or hear anything outside of your john last night? Thats all you did?

My initial take was the urchins were out of game resources to facilitate a story. However Jonathan ended up an urchin, and Schmidty hinted to being an urchin (at least seemed like that to me) last night.

Right now I find Blade's story credible as best he understands it. I guess the question in my mind is how credible the urchins themselves are. I dont feel that Blade is lying as he would have to make alot of guesses and be hitting them pretty directly here.

I think the best thing at this point is Barkeep needs to say why he was there, and name who else was there that he knew 100% was there, and if that person can or can not vouch either for barkeep or for also being in the district at least.

Well if you have had 2 different people that are good guys visit you this game (one night 0, one last night), then thats 2 people who should be able to vouch for you, including one vouching for your wherabouts last night. So your story is just fine with me as long as you get others who will vouch for you.

If no one vouches for you, then it seems like a logical lynch vote today.

I strongly believe that Barkeep is telling the truth about being a prostitute - but if he "scored" last night and that prevents other actions (night kill) for both parties that would imply there were three people in the district.

I'm also not 100% certain that someone cannot be both prostitute and werewolf. I'll send that question to Chief Rum in an e-mail.

This is why I was curious about Barkeep's defense. If someone was his "john" I don't really see a downside for them coming out at this point.

Barkeep, did you learn anything about Tyrith's death while you were in that district last night?

I'm going to vote for the only other person with votes

Vote Daddy Torrango

Gotta save myself.

Why dont you tell us who you were with both nights, so they can either clear you or damn you. I dont see much of a downside in clearing you, and possibly 2 others

I hid in mortal fear over the commotion. I hope my john is around today to verify me then.

Seems to me there's more credibility if I don't say.

actually Barkeep did not know there were 2 good guys as his johns. remember he did not say his first night's customer was innocent. He couldn't tell

Id actually like you to...this way, two bad guys can say oh, i was with barkeep last night..if you name two names, its cut and dry. If you dont, any two players in the game can step up. Maybe im wrong, but i doubt with all the kills their is a bad guy side of 3 or more people. So you naming two would be a solid option to me

Ive given yall all the information i have..i will try to get better results on night 6 when i get to have him follow one person. Have a good morning yall, im head off to classes

I agree with Blade. I went back and looked through all of Barkeep's posts to try to get a feel for a validity of his statement. I found some negatives and positives.

One weird thing for me was that Blade was after barkeep yesterday too before there was this urchin proof, and I hate it when "evidence" lines up convienantly. Sometimes its not as convienant as it seems. I however do not have any reason to doubt Blade's story.. someone did pay the Urchin a whole lot of money last night, 10 shillings would be a believable amount to me. What Blade says the urchin did also is believable to me. So I am not putting much weight to yesterday's coeincidences.

Now on to what Barkeep has talked about.. He has asked many many times this game why would people go to visit the prostitutes. This to me either means he is indeed a prostitute and doesn't understand from his perspective why others would spend money on him. He also wouldn't know what type of person is visiting him (are they good people, are they bad people, can both sides visit?) Or the other possibility in my mind is that he has been setting up a prosititute defense the entire time in case he got snagged and wanted to understand the role as well as possible.

I guess the big thing for me is Barkeep preached on day 1 that more information is better for the village. Its time to live up to your words Barkeep. I think you should tell us what you know, who visitied you, where did they visit you. You said someone visited you night 0 and last night. that is two independant factors that can be vefiried and possibly leave an additional trail of secondary verification of people who witnessed those in this line of thinking.

I guess I don't have a feel one way or another if one can be a prostitute + a bad guy. I'm assuming JtR isnt a prostitute, but I don't know about the other roles.

Would it help us any to also put together a list of people who wern't in Tyrith's area last night who we know couldn't have killed him? Mr.W had a good list to start with. I'm sure others might be able to have confirmation of not being in the area.

i find it hard to believe there were only 2 people in a district last night.
there are what 20+ peeps and 4 or 5 districts (i cant remeber). i doubt your urchin is 100% accurate.

I will vouch for Barkeep but do not want to give any details other than that.

Without giving more information on your actions, can you at least verify which part you are vouching to? That you also were in Commercial Rd. District last night and the urchin wasn't correct, or that barkeep is a prostitute and you found that out night 0 (not last night). Its important to know which part.

My last post for a while (maybe 2-3 hours). I find it very disapointing that Barkeep chose to leave without presenting a viable defense.

I've tried to start a map of last night to have an idea of who was where, so we can at least rule out who might not have been who's murderers.

We have the following vouches so far:
Bulletsponge + 2 others he says, but does not state what area
Mr.W states he saw Blade, ntn, St.cronin - whitechapel Rd
Hoops + 4 who he saw leaving cavell but we do not know if they can vouch for him. (as it could be night 0 info he is using based on people's living locations)
Alan - Whitechapel Rd.
Barkeep + 1 other he says who visited him last night. - Commercial Rd.

So this makes my map so far like this:

Bishopsgate:


Whitechapel Rd: (Fouts & BrianD dead)
15. MrWednesday (unverified)
18. AlanT (unverified)
4. Blade6119
13. st. cronin
23. ntndeacon


Commercial Rd: (Tyrith dead)
1. Barkeep49

Cavell:
19. hoopsguy (unverified)


Unknown area:
5. bulletsponge (unverified)


No info:
2. DaddyTorgo
3. Schmidty
7. saldana
8. Lathum
12. path12
14. LoneStarGirl
16. SnDvls
17. dubb93
20. Dodgerchick
21. Raiders Army
22. Swaggs
24. Izulde

Barkeep is a prostitute.

I know who at least one of the prostitutes are and Barkeep isn't it. Also, if we lynch Barkeep, then we have a strong indication as to if Barkeep is bad or good. Blade's evidence suggests there's a possibility that Barkeep's bad, so I'm willing to go that route to clear path or damn path, depending on the Barkeep lynch result.

VOTE BARKEEP

I live in Cavell St., so hoops may have seen me.

You do not visit an opium den to find prostitutes.

The information I'm looking for is someone to vouch that they were with BK last night. That would give more credence to him not being able to commit a murder as a werewolf - I think it is less likely (not impossible) that he could complete multiple actions.

Of course, Chief coming in to say that it is not possible to be both a prostitute and werewolf would clear this up as well.

Alan, if we are able to establish a good reason to reveal where people live I'm happy to reveal the information I know about people leaving Cavell last night.

For what it is worth, Tyrith was from Commercial. So he was killed in his home area - don't know if that helps in terms of learning the order actions are processed as he potentially could have stayed in his district last night.

ok i guess its time to save Barkeep. i was the John who visited Barkeep last night for some "matress rodeo". i learned he is good. i also learned who his john from the previous night was and that he too is good

I was a little disappointed with my night action; I was hoping on a bigger circle of trust but the person I visited in Bishopsgate has already been cleared. Bummer.

I was also robbed... bastages. One thing I found out was that Mr. W was passing through Bishopsgate last night.

dola

i met Barkeep in the commercial district

so the fact that i too was in comercial dist means Blades urchin didnt see everything or that Blade is full of it. im pretty sure you never get 100% of the info, but i also dont trust blade

I do trust Blade because some of the stuff he said corresponds with what I know to be true. Right now, bullet defending Barkeep seems really odd... 2 people whom I don't trust fully right now.

for the record, I didnt leave my house last night...i was trying to save my shillings to bribe an urchin with last night....the night before, i was in the bishopgate area looking for hookers, but didnt find any.

if bullet is to be believed (no reason not too), Blade's info is incomplete at best, and a fabrication at worse, and since both path and bullet are vouching for Barkeep's being a lady of the night, i am going to hold off on voting for anyone right now

Oh yeah and dang Blade, you spend 10 schilling to hire an urchin? I was thinking of offering a lot less than that.

dola, i stayed home yesterday because my attempt from day 1 to get an urchin was turned down, i assume by blade's use of the action.

barking up the wrong tree here Izulde ;)

i did offer less...damn little capitalist bastards....

I don't get your reasoning. We don't want the prostitutes to die and there are obviously multiple of them around. For you to place that vote after I came out and vouched for him raises you on my suspicion list.

It's not a matter of clearing or damning me, it's a matter of not lynching someone who is good when the bad guys obviously have the potential to thin our numbers rather quickly. I strongly suspect we have very little margin this game to waste on lynching good people to learn info. We have plenty of ways to gather info in this game. It's a matter of finding a way to coordinate our seperate pieces of info without putting too many targets out there to get killed at night.

there are 5 players that I have little to no info on in my notes anyone have are read on the following?

DaddyTorgo
Schmidty
Lathum
LoneStarGirl
Raiders Army

No read on Torgo or RA. Schmidty is playing his regular confounding game, LSG said she'd be a lot more talkative today but I haven't noticed anything from her. Lathum said a couple of things that I noticed but my notes are at home so I forget what they were offhand. I don't recall them being anything major though.

i would be very suprised if we have as many kills tonight as we had last night...that type of mechanic could make a very short game. i think it is more likely that some of the kills were one time or at least every third night type actions, and that all the baddies used them last night to make sure they got them in before they had a chance to get lynched. blade brought this up earlier (expecting alot of deaths), but i didnt see anyone elaborate on why.

Meeting time for me, before I go for a while, to respond to this..

My vote is on DaddyTorgo right now. I don't know what role or side he is on, but I have a good guess what role he isn't. Plus he hasn't been verified by anyone, trusted by anyone and we don't know his whereabouts last night.

Schmidty hinted he was an urchin, but other than that has been rather his normal play (good or bad)

Lathum has kinda been weird this game and Im not sure what to make of it. Might just be busy RL.. dunno.

LSG also hasn't been too involved evidentally due to RL stuff.

I feel ok about RaidersArmy due to stuff he said on day 1. He was one of the early people who I think backed Fouts and I find it likely he is a common londoner.

oh one other question I had...

can someone tell me how you go from cavell st (to the east), to Whitechapel rd (center of town) by going through bishopgate district (to the west)?

Although he does list himself as unverified,. the fact that Alan is claming to have been in whitechapel rd last night is bothering me....there were 4 other people there that have been verified, but not a single one of them has said they saw alan.

i was suspicious of him yesterday, and this type of listing is something he has done in the past when he is a bad guy....he makes a list with a ton of people listed as suspects because they are unvouched for, but doesnt include himself.

Mr. W you seemed to have gotten around a lot last night.

wondering what you were doing? you stated you live in Cavell (hoops is hinting at seeing you there) and we know you were in Whitechapel (per post #484)

any of you three on right now (alan, DC, Sal) see him last night?

lunch break is over for me, see you all tonight.

I wasn't going through Bishopgate to get to Whitechapel.

I would recommend against lynching Barkeep, at this point. We've got several suggestions why we shouldn't, plus, if he is in fact a prostitute, we can expect Jack to take care of him sooner rather than later.

I didn't mean to suggest that they could kill three every night, but it sure looks like there is at least a chance of multiple kills in the evenings. We'll know more tonight I guess.

I do think that the key will be processing all the pieces of information that we have without revealing our good roles. I think it might have been pretty smart for the bad guys to target regular Londoners last night -- they're out and about and the more they see the bigger the chance of someone getting caught.

Umm... NO!!! The lady of the night I visited told me you passed through Bishopsgate, sorry man, this doesn't jive with me.

Actually, I did not see you among the four people I did witness. This is not to dispute you living there, just that you were not one of the people I saw there last night.

too many fingers are starting to point now

vote Mr. Wednesday

his story isn't jiving with me right now

I got a response to my question to Chief Rum on whether someone could be both prostitute and werewolf. Not a direct answer, but here is the part I think was very intersting:

"at the beginning prostitutes are good and count towards good"

This implies that there might be a conversion mechanism out there, but I would be very surprised if it could have been activated on Night 0 or Day 1 to have Barkeep as a killer werewolf on Night 1. So I'm not going down the Barkeep path today.

Just read and got caught up. I think it's a bad idea to vote Barkeep today. Right, now, it is down to DT, RA and Wednesday for me. I think I'm gonna put some pressure on Torgo and see if we can't get something out of him. This vote is subject to change.

VOTE DADDYTORGO

wow. so i get a vote from alan because there's a ton of information being thrown out and I'm having trouble processing it with the killer headache I had the other day? that's pretty harsh.

In case it's not clear, I'm not denying being in Bishopsgate, it's just that my reason for being there wasn't because it was on the way to Whitechapel Rd.

thanks dubb. i was sleeping till 1 (lazy retail worker me). you all want info from me?

I don't get an off period till 12:45

as for what I did last night, I was in Whitechapel Road, where I am staying at the Inn during the events of this terrible time in London. I thought about visiting a prostitute or going to the opium den but figured that there'd be a lot of evil about on night 1 and I didn't want to have my shillings robbed away or possibly worse (turns out it was a good night NOT to go out in Whitechapel). For every night I stay in I gain 4 shillings too, so there was a positive to my not going out, it's $$ I can use later.

Does anyone else accumulate money in the manner DT is suggesting?

Okay guys, again, sorry for having so much real life junk going on, its not like me, i know. Second, after we had a couple of people vouch for Barkeep, Izulde voted for him. That is way suspicious. I stayed at home last night because I thought there would be too much going on and i didn't want to get killed early. I get 3 shillings a night so i thought what the hell. Other than that, nothing exciting happened

Well i guess i answered your question hoops.

The fact that Daddy gets money the same way i do makes me think he is good, but i dont know for certain. So i wont vote for him today. Barkeep was cleared so ill stick off of him. so the only other choice right now seems like

vote mr wednesday

it's what happens when you're a trader passing through town. selling your wares. and no i'm not talking about being horizontal refreshment, although I may check that out tonight...

Is it just me, or does there appear to be way too many people who can visit prostitutes/opium dens/earn money/hire urchins to all be plain villagers?

Also, here is the sum total of my question to Chief Rum and the full answer - I verified with him that it is acceptable to do this and figure that since it is allowed it is the best way to allow everyone access to the same info.

Question (Hoops): Can someone be both a prostitute and a bad guy role (werewolf in this
case)?

If both are "roles" I would think this is unlikely. But if "prostitute"
is an occupation that might allow for someone to hold both the role and
occupation.

Looking for any clarification that you think is fair to give.


Answer (Rum): Sorry, but I don't think I can respond to that within the rules of the game. You will have to go with what information you can surmise from start up information in Post #3, and from any information you
uncover through the course of the game.

I will say that at the beginning, prostitutes are good and count toward
good. I can't say whether I have designed the game to change this or not
as it progresses.

Sorry I can't be more helpful.

Can someone explain to me what the point of money is in the game? I'm reading through things, but I'm not understanding.

It was these two quotes that had me thinking down a tangent earlier..




Which led me to ask this:



It seems Sndvls had the same line of thinking as he later asked this:



I phrased mine a little different just because I wasn't sure if moving between alot of areas on purpose or accidental was a sign of someone being bad or being good. It either implies multiple night actions or something else to me... I don't necessarily find that correlation to mean he is bad.. and alot of my thoughts might be leaning to him being good. It would be helpful if some of the people who he stated came to him in whitegate when he called them backed his story. I am just assuming since Blade didn't deny it while he was here that its true though. I doubt I'll vote for Mr.W on this alone.


This is pretty interesting to me for a few reasons. Saldana (like ntndeacon) has been one that appears to be clinging to a particular role yet not really offering any fresh or new points of interest about the role. Many people have dropped hints or made references to things in regards to the normal generic villager role this game that I have noticed, but Saldana hasn't even though he is piggybacking on the role from my understanding last night of his comments to Dubbs.

I would think if you are truly the role I assume you are claiming based on last night comments, you wouldn't be finding me too suspicious after the hints I dropped yesterday and today (some of which have later been supported by others). Dunno if there is alot to it, but just something interesting that I have been finding.


My comment in regards to this... If we are to assume Barkeep started out as a prostitute (as vouched for by Path and Bullet), then we assume he started good. So two options are: Either converted night 1 somehow without path knowing about it (unless path was involved), or he is still good.








The last few quotes were in regards to DaddyTorgo's comments. He seemed to be very confused about the stuff we talked about yesterday and said so in the thread, yet today is claiming to have those abilities (visit prostitutes, opium den, etc). He stated he gains money if he stays in (4 shillings a night), and LSG said that she can vouch for that.. but I think you might look closer LSG... mine too is only 3 shillings a night like you.. but the thing is I don't have to stay in to gain those. If you double check yours I am guessing you get your 3 shillings a day regardless if you stay in or not.. So while it seems that DT's is like yours.. I think his might be a bit more different than first glance shows.

Last night you said something like "urchins rule" or something like that. My assumption was you were hinting to your role. If this is the case, do you have methods of gaining money or spending money? Or was this not a hint and just a random statement that you find young boys attractive? :)

Money allows us to either visit a prostitute or the opium den.

My guess is that this would be considered an "ordinary villager role".

Okay Alan...for the last time let me explain my timeline:

Night Zero: MASSIVE headache. I won't go so far as to call it a migrane, but it was constant throbbing pain all along the back of my head, from one side to the other. It literally hurt to stand up. So I saw my role-PM from CR and said "okay" but then was unable to be in-thread and following along for the first bunch of stuff. So I had a ton to catch up on, which is where things started to get jumbled.

I do understand the mechanics of the opium den and the prostitutes in the game. That's not what confuses me. What confuses me is reading through the whole thread at breakneck speed trying to catch up and either missing the little "hints" that people drop down, or coming too late to them and being unable to give a little *wink-wink* without looking suspicious.

It's not because I'm evil. It's because I had a huge headache and then had to catch up on a bunch of stuff really quickly. Not to mention the fact that I just switched locations at work and am now under the Adolf Hitler of Starbucks managers for the next several months.

As for my money-earning ability, it's the fact that I have to stay in at night to earn it that makes it worth 4 shillings I would assume. And yes, I'm not your *typical* trader who you might expect to make day-calls. It's because what I'm dealing in isn't cloth or food, but lovely flowers.

Hmmm. I'll unvote for now and look at the info again later.

UNVOTE BARKEEP

DC, I think the point is that there are a lot of people who are aligning themselves in the "ordinary villager role" when it seems that there are quite a few special roles out there.

- 3+ bad guys, based on three kills
- I know of three prostitutes and there is at least one more out there
- We have already seen three ordinary villagers killed during Night 1

Just seems likely that some of the "bad guys" are hiding in plain site by acting like ordinary villagers.

After expenses and all, I end up with 3 shillings a day, but I don't remember earning money if I stay home, that would be nice as 3 shillings doesn't do much... especially with all the hoodlums around town.

Thats what I have been saying all along and why I said what I did about my thoughts on St.Cronin yesterday. Without getting into unfair play and quoting parts of my initial PM, it basically says in there that its the normal role. I am not suprised at all to see many people with it. The fact so many people have that ordinary role, it leads me to think the information we get from it might not be entirely helpful or complete (ie: my questions to Blade this morning about his urchin he hired). Part of me wonders if the best benefit we can have is by making a complete picture, as parts of this game is like my tombstone game, knowing who was where over serveral days would have really helped the good guys in that game. THats why I started trying to put that together here as well.

Yeah that was my point.. Daddy's statement makes it clear that he is not an ordinary villager. I am pretty sure ordinary villagers will earn money the way you stated.

So with that said, assuming Daddy is not an ordinary villager, why then would he have other ordinary villager abilities.

Maybe its my normal case of finding suspicion in someone and then every statement that they make that doesn't add up just fueling my suspicion here.. but the more DT talks, the less likely I feel i want to move my vote away from him.

Since DT is not an ordinary villager role as its clear, its a much higher percentage chance he is bad than an average random vote. At least in my mind right now.

There's a lot of process here. I'm still undecided where to put my vote tonight. Just a gut feeling, but I'm tending to trust:

hoops
Blade
Barkeep

I have a strange feeling about Alan and Mr. Wednesday. I can't put my finger on what it is, but maybe I can figure it out later.

Everyone else I don't have a good read on at all. It's also hard to concentrate while you're reading 100+ posts and your wife is having a conversation with you about Christmas gifts. ;)

Anyhow, none of my gut feelings are strong at all. So don't take too much stock in what I'm saying. I need to mull this over and get back to you guys later.

So what of LSG then? She seems to have aligned herself with Daddy.

Alan, here is where I worry about releasing location information - we don't know the order that actions are processed.

Example:
1. Local activities - bad guys act before good guys
2. Move to new area
3. Remote activities - bad guys act before good guys

So if I was to give out information on where someone started last night, I could make them a sitting duck for a bad guy kill.

I have no idea about the order of actions, just using the above as an example where the full disclosure of information provides a lot of value for the opposition.

If the group feels that the rewards outweigh the risks I'll reveal all the location information that I possess.

On the topic of location information, I do find it interesting that I saw four people leave a region where MrW lives and he was not one of them. If you figure an even distribution of people across a region, then there are probably six per region. It is possible I would not see people who stay home, but it has been indicated that MrW was on the move yesterday.

Random dice roll or something more sinister?

I don't have absolute trust in the three people I saw at the opium den, but I don't think they're good votes because I think they're not Mr. Hyde.

Well, I really don't wanna spend too much time here than I need to:

Vote Mr. Wednesday

I think he's trying to backpedal after I outed him.

I agree. But there just seems to be more of them than there should be. So either some of the special roles have the same ability as Londoners, or we've got some folks grasping for credibility. I'm trying to figure out which.

hoops, putting a few things together, I'd guess that nobody is going to have the full picture of the comings and goings in a given area, which makes sense to me. Obviously, this will be worse in bad weather.

*is a mess all over the carpet*

No. I didn't think my complete movements were relevant. As is usually the case, it's not in the collective best interest for everyone to reveal everything about who they are, what they know, and what they were doing last night.