Fair enough observation. I should be a bit more clear about the context. I was making a note about the ability to do hybrid rules.

Maximum Football is set up to have no punting for the indoor game, but he wanted to do it for a hybrid game with an outdoor American field.

You wanna do it on the moon?

Upon further review of the picture, it looks like Milt Stegall is not the person in green-and-white in the middle of the picture. He's the guy shoved way to the right, catching what appears to be a 10-yard-fight style pass.

Wait, what did I miss. How come the Winnipeg Blue Bombers are being mentioned??

Correct.

He is in the middle of the field in the graphic and is not in the background or foreground. He is in the middle depth wise.

I believe Antmeister thought the caption was meant for the player in the foreground, which is actually understandable for anyone who is not a CFL fan.

I admit, Marauders is pretty good. He almost has me thinking this is a game I might want to play.

Okay -- now that I've managed to spot the football in these pix -- how the hell does Andy Fantuz catch that pass? Also, are any passes thrown that are not straight bullet passes? Please don't answer -- it would violate your NDA.

I totally want to play it, and start a demented dynasty. It's not worth $50 for me to do that, though.

For those clambering to see in game results, this is a custom league I made that plays NFL style rules and level. All teams run unique offenses (my own pro-Flexbone, 1 back offenses, normal pro back, 4 WR sets, etc..) and defenses (34, 43, and 42) and had players distributed in an initial draft.

A couple things you will notice is the plays/game is up and I think this is more related to NFL rules for time running during incompletions as compared to MaxFB which is setup for old college rules where the clock stops on an incompletion regardless of the time. Sacks are up as well but not alarmingly and will be mentioned below.


In the passing game completion % are down but sacks, TDs, and yds/cmp are up. All signs that most of the playbooks I am using favor deeper routes than common in the NFL.

Running game looks solid aside from the increased number of plays as mentioned before.


It is only 1 game short of three weeks into the DFL season, so some of this might be just noise but I think you can see this is far from the laughing stock it was originally portrayed in this thread. Note: the NFL results are through 14 weeks.

Nah, they cut him with .003 seconds left in the game

#DIV/0! 0 must be a Canadian rating.

Nice to see offensive and defensive linemen getting a call out on the rushing stat sheet.

There is still a pretty significant difference in the stats. Yardage is up about 33% through three games over the NFL average, while the number of plays is only up about 20%. I don't think that the number of plays is affected quite as much by the stopping of the clock issue, as there are only about 5 more passes a game, but there are a little over 17 more rushes a game. Rushes are what eat up the clock.

But as you said, this is only a 3 game sample. It will be interesting to see how things play out over a whole season, then multiple seasons.

And we still have more fumbles lost than actual fumbles. Still confused on how that could happen.

The 33% yardage issue might be contributed to Harderman who is averaging 216 rush yards per game for Tucson. He's on his way to a 3500 yard season if he can keep that up.

I don't know but according to his NFL numbers it happens in real life too. :confused:

I am also amazed at the sack totals considering in just 3 games, 1 team has been 29 sacks, another has 22. And considering the sack totals weren't shown on the passing chart, I bet the teams that allowed the most sacks are the ones with the top rated passers.

Plus I am still confused why the game can't round to the nearest tenth for various players. Or is this just a result of someone's spreadsheet.

as the person referenced to, I would like to comment. Yes, I would like to play 11 man outdoor football using NFL style rules with no punts. 4 plays to get a first down or turn the ball over (aside from scoring via TD's or FG's). It doesn't matter why I want to do this, I just do.

I had it working almost exactly the way I wanted it to, then changed a setting or two and made the game unplayable. I haven't gone back and tried to fix it yet only because I don't have the amount of time necessary to devote to setting the league up the way I want and playing out every game... which is a necessity since the quick sim doesn't appear to use any of the custom league settings.

I realize most everyone in this thread could care less about Maximum Football and would rather bash it based on the results and reviews of the initial release version. That's your opinion and nothing any says or shows you will ever change that. I just hope new people to the game will give it a fair chance (which a demo would immensely help with) before dismissing it and jumping on the bash MF bandwagon.

As it is right now, the game is still a long way from being a viable option (for me at least) to simulate a football league. I enjoy messing around with it, but the amount of time necessary to set up a league and make tweaks to get the game to play the way you want and give the results you want is just too much for me right now. I understand because of the many different styles of play and the game's attempt to cater to everyone that it has to be like that (ie, take an extended amount of time to set up and dial-in to the user expectations). Most people, as can be seen here, don't have the patience, or wherewithall to do so. That doesn't mean the game should be summarily dismissed and ridiculed. It can realistically and more importantly accurately sim any real world league, if the user is willing to put an enormous amount of time into the game and changing/tweaking its settings.

I would say version 3 will be a huge improvement with version 4 or 5 (if it makes it that far with all the disappointingly negative reviews) being the version that will most likely appeal to the largest amount of people. Every game has to start somewhere, unfortunately for MF it choose to be everything to everyone instead of putting a solid game out and then introducing more and more features and customizations in each release version.

Now, all that said, I would recommend MF to anyone that wants a graphical coaching sim and is willing to put time into the game and accept and deal with the growing pains that go along with a game really in its infancy, but that is growing each and every day...

I seam to hear this a lot.
Could you post some screen shots of these stats please?

In the current incarnation, it will not be able to realistically or accurately sim the NCAA. As I mentioned a few posts up, the hashmarks are in the same location as US Professional, and it is not possible to design option plays where the ball is pitched. The locations of the hashmarks is huge to the college game, especially where play design is concerned, as blocking schemes change greatly depending on how close to the sidelines the snap will be. And not being able to pitch the ball basically hamstrings an option offense. You might be able to tweak the settings to get stats close to what the NCAA produces, but the way the stats are generated won't reflect how they happen IRL.

not at this time. As I indicated, I am not actively playing the game because I don't have the amount of time necessary to do so. In addition, my way of playing (ie, with no punts on a 100 yard field) makes it impossible to compare to any real world league since there are no real life leagues like the one I would be playing. I can tell you I was happy with the results, but that is just my opinion, yours may differ. That is kind of the crux of the game and argument. Everyone sets up their leagues and more importantly playbooks differently so everyone will have different results. It is up to each user to decide if their generated results are close enough or need to be adjusted.

Now that being said, there are already two posts here that have compared generated results to the NFL. There may be more posts at the Max Football forums or in other football game forums. Exactly how many posts comparing generated results to the NFL are needed for you to form an opinion?

isn't the point of a sim to produce realistic/accurate stats?!? Yes, you can be appalled the game doesn't move the hashmarks, but the fact of the matter is that you can get results inline with NCAA statistics.

I am obviously not as concered about hashmark placement as you are and therefore would have no problem playing or participating in a college league run using MaxFootball. It appears to be a very huge point for you though, so I would recommend you not get the game until the hashmarks are differentiated between college and pro leagues. I would hope your seeming disdain for the game is based on more than just hashmark placement.

I don't think this is true at all. It is funny bashing a bad game, but if the game is shown to be good or drastically improved, then our opinions will change.

Yes, as I also mentioned, the types of plays you can run does not mirror what are run in real life college games. The hashmarks are a (big) part of it, just as having a 110 yard field is crucial to the CFL. Since one of the big differentiators of MaxFB is the ability to create plays, not being able to create a big portion of a college option offense is definitely a sticking point for me.

As for the quote about the stats, how those stats are derived is just as if not more important as the final numbers. We had this discussion a few pages back regarding when a game is simmed, the longest run is capped at 15 yards and the longest pass is capped at 40 yards. Take for example two rushers. They each ran 20 times for 100 yards in a game. Runner A carries 5 yards each of his 20 carries. Runner B carried 19 times for 1 yard, with one 81 yard run. The end numbers are the same, but the paths to generate them are very different.

It seems that from the stats we've seen from the game, the engine is going off of straight averages, and does not appear to use more complex math like Standard Deviation.

or rounding in some cases. :D

do you mean the quick sim engine? I do not think any of the stats posted were generated using the quick sim engine, but instead by letting the cpu play itself. In that case there are no averages used, just player ratings and "real world" physics. Remember, playing a game out uses physics and not stats to generate play results.

the posts I've read seem to indicate people are basing their opinions on initial release version of the game and dismiss the improvements that have been with subsequent versions. I really hope you are right though.

Which 2 posts are you reffering to?

I mean either the quick sim or in-game engine. You'd expect the results from both engines to fall along a STDDEV curve that mirrors the yardage gained from plays in the CFL/NFL/NCAA/AFL, depending on which you were most closely trying to approximate.

AAACK! Don't say the "S" word in this thread, man!

Have you seen the tons of posts asking for screenshots that document the improvements?

keeping up with the thread a bit better now..it's only been 3 months since my last post in here.

yes, I've seen some of those posts and I've seen screens posted the last couple days.

I'm not trying to be a MaxFootball apologists or champion. The game has serious faults as some games due when first introduced. MF probably tried to do to much all at once instead of doing less, but doing it better and then introducing new features and customizations after the solid frame had been put in place. I think it is moving in the right direction and would hope more people would recognize the game is not everyone's cup of tea and has faults, but is working to improve them and does get better after every release. Now, I wasn't here when the developer and his wife tried to defend himself and the game. I can understand why that immediately turned people and why some won't ever give the game a chance and will mock it unmercifully. It would be nice if everyone could look at it now through a new set of eyes and form an opinion on the game rather than the previous history, innuendo, rumors, and downright falsehoods that exist in this thread. Yes, I realize MaxFootball, its developer, and its publisher make that difficult by not providing a demo. All serious questions and comments on the MaxFootball site seem to get addressed and answered, even if the answer isn't what one wants to hear.

Anyway, I think I've stated my opinion and I'm not really trying to change anyone else's. I think it would be great if everyone could play the game, understand what it is trying to do, and then make informed decisions instead of going off screenshots and the postings of others.

Obviously I'm not a regular here, but will try to check back often and reply to anything directed towards me or to posts that I may have experience with and can give a semi-qualified opinion on.

Sir, if you can point us to a demo to try out, then it would probably get less ridicule, but to tell people to pay $50 (is it still $50?) for a game to see if they like it is pretty much crazy if you can't provide a solid game. People keep mentioning that it has improved and the stats that are shown to us still show errors. We point them out and it gets ignored or we are told that is with an older version of the beta.

And you are telling us yourself that you shelved the game because you don't have the time to play this game due to the amount of time it take just to set up a game to play. Don't you see that as a problem? Why are you doing the work that a programmer should be doing so that you can take the plays and options you want and play a freaking game. More people are taking more time trying to set up a realistic game than actually playing it and that is why hardly anyone is showing stats. It doesn't make sense that the game should already have default playbooks that give you balanced gameplay to begin with.

And as much as Madden gets ridiculed for its unrealistic gameplay, it can actually record statitistics a hell of a lot better than the current iteration of this game. Plus you can actually play with a real schedule, don't have to worry about frame rate killing your stats, and don't see teleporting objects. Plus I can get that game for $35 now or wait until the end of the year and get it for $10.

Couple clarifications:
Its 1 game short of 4 weeks into the season not 3.
I took the outputted league stats and added avg./league and avg./yard. Some of the stats were calculated by me (including the yds/att) to demonstrate similarities with the NFL. So if you see round off errors or wrong significant digits, blame it on me.

Fumble avg. 1.1/game and Fumbles lost 0.8/game. This seems fine to me.

The OL, DL, WR, TE I suspect are rushing yards after fumble recoveries.

Hardeman is the single back on 4 WR offense. Tuscon is 4-0 and destroyed patsy Des Moine in week 2 when he compiled 303 yards and 4 TD on 36 carries. In week 4 he got held in check (22att/73yds) in a barn burner against 3-1 San Antonio that Tuscon squeaked out 27-24. DB, Vanhaitsma, saved the game recording 3 picks in the same game.

to the best of my knowledge, the download version of the game has always been $39.99 US. If you want a CD, then the game is $49.99 US.

As I said in at least my last two posts, there is not a demo, but should be.

Also, because of the almost unlimited league configurations and rules, it is impossible for the game to meet everyone's expectations out of the box. Some people will like the default settings/playbooks. Others, will want more and have to work to get it.

I am only posting here because it appears to me people are bashing the game "because it is the cool thing to do" here. Hardly anyone has any actual on-hands experience and those that do are either defending the game or found it too complicated or time-consuming to set up and quit and now just bash it because they didn't get it.

Everyone can have an opinion and base that opinion on actual game play or heresay or whatever. I am posting just to offer an alternative view and hopefully help those just learning about MaxFootball to hear some good things about it and be willing to learn more and give it a chance. It most certainly is not for everyone and as mentioned even I don't play regularly. It still has some good points and has potential to be a good game. I don't know if it will ever reach that potential, but I'd rather support it and try to help it get there than just come here and bash it in the name of fun.

Here some more. Tuscon's week 3 victory over Rochester (my team) that runs a 3 RB Flexbone adjusted to be more of a pro 4 WR set. Though Rochester did every thing right they failed to pull out the win as they don't have the downfield passing game to catchup in the second half.

Okay, got it. It probably has always been that way.

Sure its true that some people won't like the default playbooks, but it you don't have base playbooks/rule sets to start with, how is anyone gonna play it out of the box. Are you saying this game was never meant for someone who just wants to load a game and play a few games of football?

This comments strikes me as funny because everytime this thread had almost died and had been long forgotten, Marauders pops in here (of all threads) and talks nonsense. Instead of starting a new thread, he comes to the thread. So if it is a fresh start you are looking for, why do people continually write to this thread?

And fine, I get that, but for someone to come in as if the game has dramatically improved and is finally out of beta stages (*cough* Marauders) is not fairly representing the stage the game is still at. And as far as being potentially good, that has been said for years by the people who continue to support it, yet to this day the same thing is still being said. When it reaches its potential, come back to this thread then, but right now, it is still not there.

I'm not saying that at all and not sure how you got to that conclusion from my posts. It is entirely possible to load the game and play a few games of NFL, CFL, or Indoor Football-style games. You will most likely have fun doing so. The problem for me seems to come when I want to put a league together and play several seasons. To get the type of results I want, I have to give each team different playbooks, different strategy profiles/settings, tweak the league rules, and modify some of the core game elements most people wouldn't even know how to find. Some would be very content running the game with the default settings and enjoying it. Some would spend several hours tweaking and setting up leagues to get the results they want, and others will play the default settings, not like the results, turn the game off and post what a crappy game it is without working to make it better. Not that anyone should have to work to make the game enjoyable to them.

If the quick sim engine was the same or produced the same results as the in-game engine, I would probably be several seasons into a league right now. But having to play out each game CPU vs CPU to get results is not possible for me right now. I have no reservations recommending it with the caveat that it can be a complex game to configure and use. Then again, the default settings may be exactly what you are looking for which would make the game seem less complex and still enjoyable.

And that's my point. The default playbooks don't even give a semblance of realism either. And don't get me wrong, I do realize it is much harder to tackle this problem in a 3D game.

All I am saying is that you are having he same issues here as you do in Madden, but there are way more headaches. The schedule it creates is crap. It doesn't have any draft, free agency, or trading options. It's graphics don't even compare. It doesn't record stats properly. You have to use a database to customize options (so you better hope you customers have Access available). There are still no interception return yards. There is only one type of pass.

The list goes on and the only difference is that I can customize my problems. That is why I can understand why you shelved it for a while. While the gameplay is harder to tweak, there are so many other things around it that are broken that makes the gameplay less worthwhile and I believe that is why some of the more dedicated user base has disappeared off the message board over there.

1) I disagree. The schedule is basic, but correct for most league configurations and can be edited to reflect your preferences.
2) It does have a draft and free agency. AI teams do sign and release players to fit their roster to the team profile. There is no trade AI, but I think even Madden at one point had no AI trades. It might have been a different game I'm thinking about, but it is not uncommon.
3) True, but you have one man developing the game not 100's and a dedicated graphic design staff. I enjoy the graphics and think they are more than adequate and quite good considering.
4) There is only one bug I know of that adds penalty yards to rushing stats. Otherwise, I am not aware of any other problems recording stats.
5) this is one of the game's best features. It opens up the game and allows it to be easily edited by 3rd parties. Check the mod forum to see some of the utitilities and editors that have been made. As the fan base for the game grows (hopefully), there will only be more and more editors and utilities available because the game stores data in customizable databases. Also, you can use the free database software in OpenOffice to access and manipulate the game databases. There is even a guide on the site instructing you how to do that. I myself have used it to add different footballs to the league options and change several league settings. I have to reiterate how good of a thing this is.
6) do you mean that are kept track of and reported? David has added a bunch of defensive stats to v2.2 (currently in beta). I believe this is one that is now tracked and found in a report. It may already be in the game, I just don't recall seeing it and don't have the game available at the moment.
7) This is not true in arcade mode. You can have lob passes, bullet passes and in between. I can not accurately comment if coach games have varying pass types since its been awhile since I played and I was focusing on other areas of the game.

I'm not trying to argue, rather inform. I'm not sure what you are basing your information on, but it seems to be incorrect. Some of the above is just opinion and will vary from person to person, but most of it is already in the game as I've mentioned above.

A real draft, where you pick whoever you want with your choice and not "in this round we select QB's" or whatever it was MF originally shipped with? And real free agency, with a salary cap and everything? Or just, "hey, here's some players not on any team that you can 'sign' with no concern for finances"?

The graphics are worse than what you would see with 3D football games 10 years ago. And yeah, I get it that it's one guy developing the game, but why does that earn him some kind of pass? I'm still being asked to pay real money for this game - why would I buy this and not find an old copy of Front Page Sports football and run it in emulation mode on my current PC, for a fraction of the cost?

The time is customizable.

sttfrk, you may want to check your password, as it seems the Iraqi Information Minister has accessed your account.

Seriously, that's one of the most absurd claims in a thread chock full of Marauder's absurdities.

What do you mean by basic? If I had 31 teams in the league, will it properly create a schedule? From what I remember, odd number teams did not work with the game scheduler.

So are you telling me that players have contracts? Are you telling me their is a new pool of college players available after every season? Is there a free agent signing period and when does the draft occur? Plus if you play high school or college football, do the players leave after 4 years or stay on forever?


This is one tired excuse. You are reading whatever Marauders feeds you. There are a slew of independent developers out there who design 3D games. In fact, look at the husband and wife team that created Mount and Blade or check out Galactic Civilizations. My point wasn't that he needed to have that level of talent. My point was that if Madden gives you the same thing, but with less of a headache, why would someone want to spend $30 more for it (if they buy Madden at the end of football season).

More fumbles lost than actual fumbles. 2 point conversion record improperly. And this one:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1642748

Yes it great for those that know how to use a database. And by the way, I wrote short instructions on how to use it with OpenOffice and I don't even own the game. This was back in March 2006:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/fb.asp?m=1080756

The stat is there. It just shows 0 on all the ones we have seen.

And the real kicker is why do a majority of you guys play CPU vs. CPU to simulate games? If simming the game is that bad, don't you see that as a problem for those trying to create their own league. Why do you want to waste all of that time just to get to the next game in the season? And let's say I created a 32 team league. How long would it take for me to play all those CPU vs. CPU games before I got to play the next game in the schedule. 10 hours? 8?

I just have a hard time making sense why you think this is worth anyone's time who only have maybe 1 or 2 hours max to "get away".

I think it has something to do with that metric conversion thingie

The one man vs. 100+ game designers thing is getting old.

1) That has no impact on my $ spent to fun had ratio. If the game sucks, it sucks. I don't care if it took 1400 people to design it or 1.

2) I'm not getting a discount because he's one man. If he said, "It's only $10 because I know my graphics are substandard," it may have some merit. But he's not.

3) Bugs like "adds penalty yards to rushing stats" are kind of important for a sim. You realize this, right? I mean, you are admitting the graphics engine is flawed, but then act as though a "stat" bug is easily dismissed. If you want me to play the game for the terrific stats, say so and I'll look at the accuracy and amount of stats to base my decision off of. If you are going to tell me to base the game off of the way it plays in arcade mode, than I'm going to compare it to the other products on the market. NCAA, Madden, NFL2K, NFL Street, etc.

I already know what's coming: "It's a combination and you have to live with certain flaws with both graphics and stats" I'll respond to that now: No, I don't. It's an inferior product and until the major issues are fixed, it's one that isn't worthy of the money I'd have to spend on it.

As far as I recall, human team owners have always been able to draft their players live. One can set up a team profile for the draft, but that is only used by computer teams and human teams that wish not to select each round.


David has stated from day one that the first public release will not have GM features like salary cap and negotiations. Complaining about that is like complaining about FOF for not having 3D game graphics.

The player database allows for future expansion into the GM and commissioner areas, and it is open for third party developers, but the game was never meant to have these features at this time.

Maximum Football does have a draft and training camp.


How many 3D football games were out in 1997? I understand your point, but you are exaggerating here.


FBPro did not have salaries and GM features either. One could get them from Gelat for $45, and one still can, but why should you pay Gelat $45 for tools that should be in the game when they are just tools?

FBPro is dead. It will never get better. It will never look better. It will never play better. Its AI had huge flaws, and the computer could be duped into stupid trades. Those are nice features for exploitation, but they are not great for a game that will never again be patched to fix them.

Nevertheless, if you would rather not purchase Maximum Football at this time, that is your choice. I understand your points, and I am helping work toward those goals with my own efforts, as are other community members on the Matrix Games board. Perhaps we will see you there in the future, or perhaps we will not.

For 40 bucks, you have four real footbal game options, let's look at them, shall we.

1. Madden- The mecca of arcade style 3d football. With some tweaks, it actually can give you a decent realistic game of football. It can, however, let you play as your favorite NFL player, or even youself. It gives you a decent franchise mode. It features very good animation and sound. Byfar the biggest footbal game in history.

2. Front Office Football- While not a work of art to look at, if you ever wanted to know exactly what a GM goes through, then this game is for you. Playable out of the box in it's first year, and a one man operation.

3. Second and Ten- A replayers wet dream. Every NFL Season since 1950, and the entire AFL run. It also features a college version for roughly the same price that features roughly 700 teams. Not graphically driven, but users have made a number of mods that give fields, player pictures, logos, helmets and the like. Playable and realistic from day one with NO tinkering and a two person operation. Offers free updates for life too.

4. Maximum Football- Can play pretty much any style of football you want. Offers a physics based engine similar to FBPRO. Not real great on stats. Not real great on graphics. Probably simulatesthe CFL better than anything else, but with no demo, no current scfreen shots, or tangible evidence of reality out of the box, who could tell.

Only Madden is a corporate effort. Games two and three are small operations, taken some lumps, but provide an experience that has made the investment well worth it for most users and have been quite open in getting the simulation part of football right
.

What you fail to see over and over and over again is that MF doesn't offer anything that you can't find elsewhere. The graphics are several generations old. Despite actually claiming that you can play ay style of footbal, you certainly have not come anywhere near close to proving that playing the game straight out of the box. There is no demo, unlike the other three games. Lets get real, there is no way that I could even come close to replaying a season using MF.

Game developers such as David have a history of promising the moon and then not being able to deliver. Some have learned and refined their approach, others have crashed and burned. Maybe, just maybe, if MF was offered as the arcade game that it really is, the critisism will come down a bit and you and Wintervalley just might actually be taken seriously. But as long as you promise everything and deliver nothing, why shouldanyone put down money on a game that as far as we can tell delivers nothing that it promises except being able to play football the way you want.

This is getting to the point of you guys being trollish. Deliver what is being asked here or stay away until you canshow what is being asked here. For a bnch of people that come across as not caring what the opinion of this board is, you take it quite seriously.

This thread is approaching 150,000 views. So much made of so little!

So head to head with real people I can hold a regular draft. But there's still no year by year draft pool generation, right? At least nothing that looks remotely like reality. And if you want to play solo against the AI, it's not a realistic draft either, right?

So MF does a lot of things poorly and some things not at all. Basically all I can tell that works in favor of MF is that it's customizable.

A real draft with newly generated rookies, something that resembles reality?

No, I'm not. There hasn't been a 3D football game that looked worse. The animation in this game is horrible, the models are OK by 8-9 years ago standards, the camera is awful. Name me a 3D football game that was worse to look at.

Madden went 3D in the '97 edition IIRC (released in '96).

If sttfrk is a pseudonym for Marauders or Daivd, kudos.

Yup, that was the first one released on the Playstation (which was the 3D version. The old-gen versions of Madden 97 still used the 2D Sprites)

The graphics are most assuredly not as bad as you guys make them out to be. I think they are good and equal to Madden 2003, if not 2004. Unlike 95% (99%?) of you guys, I've played the game. I've readily admitted its faults and tried to correct the incredible amount of inaccuracies that have been posted here. The game is not perfect and never will be. It will always have faults that will require some work to overcome due to the fact it lets you play several different styles of football (college, pro, indoor, CFL).

It really is not that much different than the first or second version of any other game. I am not sure why it is vilified here as much as it is... nor do I care. Continue to ignore everyone that has the game and is trying to post their experiences and correct the grossly misleading statements that are being made. After all, it is more fun that way...

I have no real interest in arguing with anyone or trying to change anyone's opinion. I thought maybe there was some real interest in learning about the game in its current state, how it has improved, and what it can do. I realize now, that can never happen inside this thread.

I may still come in here and beat my head against the wall trying to give facts and actual in-game experiences from time to time, but will not continue to spend as much doing so as I did today.

Given this crew's views and willingness to dismiss the facts, I can understand why there isn't a demo available. I hope that people actually interested in the game won't find this thread until after they have found accurate and reliable information.

Even in its current state, the game still ranks ahead of FOF, Madden, and Second and Ten in my book. I don't expect anyone else to hold that opinion, but for me the game allows me to customize and configure the game in ways that aren't possible with any other game. Best of luck with your unabashed bashing, even if there is little to no truth in it...

Here is a screen shot of Madden 2003:



(For bonus points, that's from the GameCube version)

http://www.armchairempire.com/Review...n-nfl-2003.htm

Well sabs just blew up your spot on this one - so either you're completely delusional, you're lying to make a point, or just plain stupid.

Dropping $50 for this doesn't add to your credibility, especially when you haven't corrected shit, you've just blindly claimed the opposite with no substance.

What? MF is *way* different than just about every other game in their first or second version - given that most games are playable out of the box and don't require days of "maximum customization" to get decent gameplay out of it.

Yet you're still here, hands over your ears saying "no no no no no" when someone points out something specifically messed up with the game. I believe the very existence of this thread speaks to the interest in how the game has improved, but you don't seem to allow for the fact that MF still needs to improve *a lot*.

That makes no fucking sense whatsoever. You and I both know why there isn't a demo available - the overwhelming backlash sure to follow from a wide audience of gamers given the opportunity to play the game.


Fixed that last part for ya.

I hope it is not a psuedonym for stat freak because that would make him a liar with this game.

Speaking of people who bash the game...







Nice, sttfrk

If some took from MF is using it as a pseudonym, it has got to be Jennifer Winter. Book it.

DAMN YOU - beat me to it.

It makes sttfrk the most ironic. username. evar.

Geez, he is bashing it more than 92.33749498987979% of the people who had written in this thread.

A-hahahahahahahaha!!! Good one!





Oh wait - you're serious?

There must obviously have been a tremendous amount of upgrades the player models, stadium models, textures and animations from what was recently posted in this thread then. Because from that evidence, this game has by far the worst animations and camera system of any 3D football game I've ever seen (and I worked on NFL Fever and played a ton of them). If I'm being generous, the player modeling is about at the level of the very first NFL Fever for the PC back in '99. The stadium modeling is not quite at that level.

Overall? It's about on par with 3D football games a decade old, if that.

The quality of the graphics are worse than Madden 98.
The animations are worse than 16-bit Maddens.

Vtbub's post gets right to the meat of the matter. Maximum Football may somehow strike a positive emotional chord with the very rare football gamer for God knows what reason; but the bottom line, it does no singular feature or combination of features better than other commercial football games currently available. And for 50 bucks? Yuck. And that is why it is a joke, pure and simple. I can't believe there are people that don't realize this.

If only he could spell. :)

I have made a decision.

Everyone send me $100 and I will make a game twice as good as M-F. I need the money first before I can really start though. That is how things are done right?

Here' s a screenshot of a 54 yard touchdown from the final game of week 4. The offense ran a max protect with the slot receiver running a post, the other receiver running a streak and the TE running a drag. The defense is running a 43 cover 2 defense. The slot receiver finds the hole in the zone in the middle third as you can see the MLB, 53, didn't get deep enough in the coverage and the FS isn't fast enough to cover the play. I can run the same play 5-6 times in a row and not get the same result.
Note: I don't have the defense lining up on the closest man which could be improve the defense to cover overloaded formations like the one Charlotte ran in this play.

Well I played the shit out of Madden 2003 on the gamecube and it blew that picture our of the water. That looks like FPBro98.

To your point, FBPro98 blew Madden 2003, 2004, 2005,.... out of the water as a game. I don't care if you have a Plasma TV, if you still watch crappy TV. It's still crappy TV.

Nice breakdown of the play for us. But...

I have to ask, are those Oompa Loompas or is that field gigantic? It just doesn't look right to me.

No its the camera angle. I tried to zoom out to get the entire defense to show the play progression.

Here is the first game of week five. Its a counter play catching the defense in a zone blitz. You can see the two DEs peal out into coverage as the outside linebackers blitz and get caught trailing the play. The guard will make the deciding block on the MLB and spring the back. The FS comes over and makes the tackle after a 16 yard gain.

I have seen this posted here before, and it is not correct. There are new rookies in the draft pool generated each season.


In my opinion, that is incorrect, but it really matters what a person's definition of realistic is. Each team has a team profile for the draft. The computer teams will draft by their profiles. Team Profiles are easy to create, and many of them come with the game. I'd certainly like to see scouting reports, combines, contract negotiations, and a robust free agency feature, but those are features that were not indicated by the developer to be in the game at this point. They may come as the game evolves in the future, but they are not in the game now.

You may be confusing the old default profile that was set up by the same position for each team; that has not been in use for drafting in quite some time. One thing to note here is that items like this are continually being looked at for improvement, and as new versions are released to the public, items like this are improved.

That brings up another point, every so often I read posts in this thread that ask why Maximum Football still has a beta team. The reason it does is because new features are added that need to be tested. The beta team also trouble-shoots issues that arise and provides input into which potential features should be moved forward on the action list. Almost all games that have perennial development have continuous beta teams.


It does many things well, some things fairly, some things poorly, and some things not at all. That can be said for just about any game on the market.


All right. The 10 years you previously stated is now 8 or 9 years. Madden 99 and earlier look much worse. Madden 2000 has similarities, but the players were much too large (fat) and didn't have as good resolution. Madden 2001 and 2002 are similar in graphics, but the Madden series has better animations for the players.

Once Madden went to using motion capture technology, there was no way any game done by a small independent developer would be able to match it. That is why most independent games are text sims or have very little on field graphics. Madden 2004 and onward are much better than Maximum Football in their graphics, but we already knew that, so what is the point? Maximum Football does have some arcade controls for players who want to be more hands on, but it is really a coaching game.

The graphics for Maximum Football are due for an overhaul next year. That will be nice, but it will never be able to keep up with the graphics of Madden or All Pro Football. Of course, being the best graphics arcade football game is not what Maximum Football was designed to do in the first place.

By the way, Madden 2003 on the PC didn't look as good as it did on the Game Cube or any other console. The PC Madden is generally a year behind in graphics from the consoles.

Odd teams work with the scheduler. One of the demo leagues that come with the game has an odd number of teams.

Odd numbers of teams are a pain in the backside to schedule. Having a league with an odd number of teams requires at least one bye game each week. That is why real world leagues do not like to use an odd number of teams.

The schedule creator is a basic round-robin style schedule creation tool. It is pretty basic. It will likely be improved on in game or by third parties in the future, but schedules can be edited, and there are a few websites online that will generate schedules of various sizes.

How easy is it to generate a schedule for a 31 team, or a 13 team for that matter, league in Madden? I mean in any Madden PC game released in the last few years.


He didn't state that, but leagues have set up contract systems. There is an area in the player data to record the contract information.


There is.


The draft is between the end of the last season and prior to training camp.

There is no free agent signing period, because the game does not include GM and commissioner features at this time. It isn't a feature of the game at this time just like 3D graphics and CFL rules are not in FOF and variable season length is not in Madden.


They leave.


I actually read more from the community that post to it. My PM box is often 95% full. Please don't try to get personal with people just because they like the game. They are no different from anyone here who likes Madden, All Pro Football, or FOF.


Those are fun games. Neither of them simulate the rules of football.


That assumes that Madden gives the purchaser the same thing, and it does not. I play Madden with my son often, but I wouldn't play a football league with.


The sim game isn't all that bad. It is just more difficult to have it match the stats from the CPU vs CPU played games, so some game players would rather not use it.

Just for those whom do not know the history of it, David didn't want a sim in place that did not use the full 3D engine for this reason. It wasn't until Matrix Games came into play as the distributor that there were concerns that a faster sim would be needed for some game players with larger leagues. That was fair enough, but many game players also wanted the option of a slow sim that uses the 3D engine as well.

David has stated that he would like to include the 3D based sim in the next generational version of the game, and the beta team has been tweaking the fast sim along the way. When the current beta version goes public, I'll likely post up some results on the Matrix Games forum.


It depends if you want to use the fast sim or not. Having a game of the week to give teams some 3D game time helps even out the stats.

By the way, how much different are the 5 second sim stats in FOF than when the games are played out. Are the stats exactly the same, because as I have stated before, I received some extreme stats with the 5 second sim in the demo.


Maximum Football is not an NFL simulator. One can start with a small league and work up if one wants. It is much easier to go through a season without having to worry about 32 teams. If one wants 32 and only 32 teams, there is always Madden, its sliders, and some nice utilities that hack in to the software. There are FOF and Football Mogul as well, and each game has its own strengths and weaknesses.

FINALLY he admits that the game does a shitty job with the statistics.

Nice steaming pile of mumbo-jumbo there, sparky. Pretty vivid imagination to apply it to a screen shot. Explain then why the QB is standing there like a statue, the LG/LT is hunched over like Quasimodo with no one withing 5-yards of him while other offensive linemen are already 4-5 yards downfield? BTW, in a counter-play, one or more linemen usually pull to lead block for the back, not book-it downfield while the back waits to grow a beard before running. :rolleyes:

Dude, he's playing with the Mini-Ditka mod...it's Maximum Awesomeness

Yeah, because when you zoom in or out, the field and the players change perspective at different rates. You see it all the time on tv.

Actually you have 2 offensive lineman downfield, 1 that looks like he is blocking for a passing play, and 1 of them that should be called for holding #70 on defense. So I'm not sure what kind of offense that is.

Okay...so it does suck at working with odd numbered teams. And why the comparison to Madden when their selling point isn't to customize any type of football league. That is the selling point of this game and why many say it doesn't do anything very well. You even admit that the schedule creator is basic, which includes even numbered teams.

Well this is what he said:
Well he mentioned there is free agency which is contradictory to what you are saying. Confused by this if you both own the game.

With no contracts, you don't have true free agency. How do opposing teams bid for a player if there is no monetary value assigned to them? And can you please elaborate on how well the CPU drafts players for computer controlled teams.

LOL! So you are touting a scheduler that you just admitted above is very basic and you have to edit yourself. And why would FOF have CFL rules? They never touted themselves to play any type of league imaginable and fall short of it.

Would you like for me to get every quote from both message boards to see how many times you like to bring up he is a solo developer. Weak.

Don't kid yourself. Neither does this game. But you have to admit that for indie developers, their 3D graphics kick ass and the excuse of not having motion capture software is poor if you compare this to Mount and Blade.

Okay, so people are playing CPU vs CPU to get realistic stats with custom playbooks and tweaks to the engine because the basic playbooks/players are poor in simulating a game of football. I am glad we agreed on that.

Are you serious? With all the time they have given him to develop this game, are you telling me that Matrix told David to just hold off on a fast sim option? And if that is the case, why didn't David create one in the various betas after that?

Glad we agree again.

Would you like for us to post game stats? You know, the same type of stats that people seem to be afraid to post here. And I said game stats, not a compilation of stats over a season.

Oh yes, we know this. You guys even argued at the beginning that it never even said it could play an American pro ruleset, remember. And then when called on it, it was said that American Pro does not mean NFL. So yeah, you are correct, it can't do any pro game correctly.

#63 is the LT. He is assigned a pass block to defend the backside of the run, that' s why it looks like he's pass blocking. #62 is the RG and pulls and kicks out the DE. The graphics aren't good enough to display a kick out block but that is the play design. #64 and #42 are the play side tackle and fullback and they are assigned lead block commands downfield.

To the question of a counter play, I thought a counter was any play where the RB changes direction in the backfield by design. I didn't think you had to have a pulling guard to prove it.

Why is the D-Lineman #70 blocking for the RB?

That isn't really fair. Madden does that pretty frequently as well. Guys with a clear line to a ball carrier still get engaged by blockers.

That has nothing to do with my point. We were talking graphics and animations and graphics and animations only.

I was reading through that thread a few days ago, that Bonedwarf loves this thread, and started reading it from the begining. I just want to throw a shout out to Bonedwarf if he is still reading it. :p

I didn't remember statfreak being in there until you pointed it out though.

Must....resist....saying....something.....stupid........

Lord help me not to be the ass that I truly am.............

You just said something stupid. If you have something to say, say it.

Be an ass, too. Be one towards me, I just woke up and am in the mood.

I guess one saving grace for Maximum Football is that Duke Nuke'em Forever still hasn't been released. :D

"If feasible, I would recommend purchasing the game for no other reason than ensuring its development. " - statfreak

Proof Positive that statfreak == Jennifer Witner

That thread cracked me up because the title says Maximum Football 2.1, yet there is more talk in that thread about a game called Advanced Tactics that even statfreak was intrigued. And what's funny is that he talks about how bad the game is in that thread too.

also from the OOTP thread:

"I'm halfway through the FOFC thread, which seems to be divided between those who despise the game and consider it a travesty, and those who REALLY hate it."

Thats good stuff right there...

Seriously? If you want to get angry at someone, remember the person who keeps dredging up this thread. It wasn't an FOFCer. It was a marauder of sorts. And also don't forget that you also contributed to this thread with your own Photoshop gems as well.

A couple of shaggyra Photoshop gems from back in the day:

I guess I better not bring up the past since he owns it now.

From statfreak:


Game over. We win.

Oh but you got me backwards my friend. I am in no way angry with you. In fact this is my favorite thread on any topic ever! ;)


Some of my finest work.:cool:


I will admit an addiction to this game, but some of the flaws pointed out here are valid. Some were valid and have been fixed. Some I don't believe were ever valid.

I need to take off for work now, but I'll be back tonight, with screenshots, stats and whatever else. All will be from the last public release as I am bound by my NDA with Matrix and I will not violate that.

So, I'll see you all later.....

I actually will look forward to what you will bring to the table. You seem to have been pretty skeptical at some point.

That last line still bugs me though. NDA with Matrix. $50 for a game still under development is all that says to me. It's just plain dumb man.

That will be a hell of a lot more than Marauders was giving us. So this should be interesting.

The game is $40 at least for the download version which is what most will get. I stand by all my statements both here and on OOTP. MF can be a good enjoyable game to play whether you believe it or not.

I like the graphics and guess I am just stupid. I fired up Madden 2002 (yes, I posted 2003, but now realize I was thinking of 2002) on the PC and find the graphics comparable. I've readily admitted MF's graphics are not cutting edge, but I like them.

I never bashed the game. I admitted its faults and gave my experiences with it. Overall I would recommend the game for anyone that wants to commit to it. Obviously there aren't many, if any, here.

Everything I posted was from personal experience. As has been noted by others, much of what is said about the game here is just plain inaccurate (I'll refrain from calling them lies only because I will not assume the authors intent).

Thanks for all the personal attacks. That tells me you can't refute what I've said so have to resort to taking potshots. I hope you feel better about yourself for doing so. Please continue to hurl insults, it speaks volumes about the person you are.

I realize the initial release was marred by a myriad of problems. Most of those have been fixed (IMO). I bought the first release, but never played a game until 2.0 came out. Mostly because of real life commitments and less to do with the game itself. I feel the money was well spent and readily admit I'm in the minority, especially in this thread. I would rather support MF than Madden because I enjoy the customization that can be done in MF and because the game produces realistic results (at least for me and after setting it up with some trial and error).

I have never stated MF was superior to any other game or product. I have said, for how I want to play, MF is the game that allows me to do that. The only game that does actually. So, my options are limited. Luckily, I've found MF to be good enough that I will come back to it and play when I have time to do more gaming. As I've said before, the game is not perfect and will not appeal to everyone. I wish there were a demo so people could decide for themselves instead of relying on threads like this.

Just like FOF was when it started, the game is a niche product with a limited following. Hopefully MF can continue to improve and grow in popularity like FOF has. MF is not as bad as it is made out to be in this thread. I think everyone that has tried to defend it recently (deft, marauders, shaggy, myself) is frustrated by the things posted here about MF that are simply not true. Unfortunately, the initial release of MF seemingly was so botched that it will be impossible to repair its reputation among the people here.

I'd like to thank Antmeister for engaging me in a mostly civil discussion.

Wow, my posts are way too long here. Sorry for repeating myself so much.

MF sucks.

Thank you.

this thread is just dead now. it's in its 3rd and hopefully final phase. 1st phase was the comedy, the golden age of the MF thread. lots of gems and classic posts. 2nd phase was the overkill, people knowing how historic this thread was and just trying to get in on the fun long after the horse was beaten to a pulp. in this last phase, this sums up what this thread has become:

FOFC member: "this game is horrible."
random MF fanboy: "no it's not."

seriously, this has been the gist of this thread the last 10 or so pages. it's now a pain to read. i must stop, it'll never be as good as it was.

in all seriousness those graphics are not bad at all. i kinda like them, the colors and all. that's really impressive for a one man effort. i really think david should eliminate the maximum customization and make it so that you can still edit a lot, but not enough to compromise the game engine. i think we'll all agree if this was just going to be a straight forward football game it could have some hope of simming decent, solid stats. it just may not be strong enough to handle some extreme things that humans can think of. part of how, shit, maybe the whole reason, FOF generates great stats is the developer eliminates your ability to edit the league. you can't really change much, but you give up that right in exchange for what is the strongest sim engine by a one man effort ever, and this is not a fanboy speaking cuz i've given the developer a lot of negative posts when i saw fit. i'm a longtime customer so i've earned that right.

so maybe suggest to david to take it down a notch, maybe limit the customizationatory aspect of the game to uniforms, stadiums and logos and playbooks, but the rest he should restrict. basically keep the eyecandy editabilityness intact, but get rid of my ability to create a league where i can field a team of retired pirates vs. 20 stampeding Templar Knights.