Nope ... I didn't say that.

I said the quick sim engine was put in to make sim games go faster. The parameters were not put in for that.


It is in there to avoid extreme statistics.

You act like FOF doesn't give 15/51 passing days, 82% completion percentage passing leaders, and a 210+ yard rushers each week. Those are the things that are trying to be avoided.


Maybe if you could actually understand what you read, it wouldn't be a problem for you.

Please don't tell me what I say when I did not say it. That is making things up along the way.

Do they happen? Yes.

Do they happen EACH WEEK? No.

Becuase it doesn't.

Are you saying Maximum Football has a more realistic sim engine???
WOW, just wow.

Are you talking about the end team stats, the end individual stats, or both? Is this end total stats, or end average stats, or both? Can we expect the correct team to win if they can't ever pull off a long gain? If there is a matchup between a west coast, short yardage team and a homerun-or-strikeout team, will the second team be at a disadvantage because they can't hit a homerun, or will the sim engine also not allow them to strike out? And does either option lead to an accurate sim for the teams in question, or just numbers that make sense for the league but not the specific team?

In the abstract, being able to change the quicksim parameters to match the live games is a great idea. Even Madden doesn't do this very well. But to be useful, the numbers to have to make sense in multiple contexts.

Dang.

You're sure expecting a lot from Dress-Em-Up-Barbie-Plays-Football.

Might want to reduce expectations for the world's first metrosexual sports game.

http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/...postcount=5040


So when you wrote this did you mean version 2 or version 11?

February 2007

August 2007

Your track record and that of Matrix and Daivd speaks for itself.

Oh I agree. I just wanted to make sure that a quick comment of "19-yard and 41-yard max gains make the stats the same as a live game" won't cut it. People need to know that ALL of the stats will be accurate (or close enough) and that teams who should win do win in either setup. That isn't to say that team A will always beat team B, but if team A is good enough to win 80% of the live games, they should win around 80% of the quick sims too. The goal is not to just get reasonable numbers, but reasonable results across the board.

And if I can include one snarky comment with this, if David has done the spreadsheet-type text sim games years ago, he should have a ready code-base with which to create a quick sim engine that produces realistic stats without odd boundaries of 19 or 41 yard max gains. And with the technology advances that have come in all those years, that code base should run damn fast now.

Doesn't the demo represent the play of the real game?

Trent Green went 15/51 and 199 yards in week one.

Brad Johnson had a 29% completion percentage in week two.

The two rushing leaders for the first two weeks were 225 and 212 yards. Cedric Benson had a 177 yards per game average.

There were four quarterbacks in the first two weeks that had over 80% completion percentages in games.

The next time I played, the top rusher had only 188 yards.

FOF generally averages the stats out over a season, and I consider the engine pretty good, but the per game stats are sometimes really on the extreme edges of NFL statistics.

The point is that even FOF, a stats based games, has variables that can affect the game statistics, and we all know that Madden isn't anywhere near realistic stats wise.

I am not here to talk poorly about FOF, as I believe it is a pretty cool game. Notwithstanding statistical display bugs that have been cleaned up, I will say that some of the critical analysis for Maximum Football may be a bit unfair considering how the other 3D football games' statistics work out.

I am sure that was an old beta build.

BTW where did you get that demo.
I have never seen one where you could play 2 weeks out.

Exactly. Just like his last jaunt through here he has ignored my post actually asking for him to show something concrete that shows the core of the game has improved.

Some screenshots that show any part of the game produces a semblance of realism (fine, you say the sim engine sucks - show us stats from a live game) would go a long way to build any semblance of credibility here. As of now, he just hasn't done that and has blatantly ignored requests to do so. As I said before, until he does I will continue to assume it's because the core of this game is still incredibly broken.

Just like how the NFL statistics are sometimes really on the extreme edges of NFL statistics? There is a reason why they are called "the edges". It's because they've happened.

If you look at the NFL weekly stats, you'll see QBs with very high completion percentages and very low completion percentages every single week. My response was mainly targeted at the 210+ yard rushers every week part, which 1) doesn't happen in the NFL and 2) doesn't happen in FOF.

Sure, if you play through the game, you might find a cluster or two of weeks where it does happen, just like it has happened in real life.

Looking at the stats for the MP league I'm in (eNFL shout out!), there have been about 2 dozen 210+ yard rushing games in about 15 seasons of play, which averages out to about 1 or 2 backs having a 210+ yard rushing game per year.

Ahem....Dress-Em-Up-Barbie-Plays-Football 2.0

Speaks for what? Those posts are not even in the same context.

You can't just mix and match threads to suit you. That is dishonest.

David has been adding features all along the way in 1.x. There were features added to 1.3, 1.35, and what was renamed 2.0. What does that have to do with features that the Maximum Football community has understood for a long time would not come until a complete rebuild had been made?

You can try to spin this all you want, but David did not promise or indicate that salaries, GM features, and online play would be in this release. He didn't even indicate he was working on them. I have explained this several times. I have explained why 1.5 was renamed 2.0.



I meant the next scheduled overhauled version of the game. What it would be called is not up to me. It was a best guess title for something that would likely not be released for a year or two.

Leave Reggie Ball out of this.

http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/...ad.php?t=59732

Myth:

BUSTED

FOF 2007 version 6.0d Demo

I downloaded it from the Solecismic Software site, as I recall.

Originally Posted by Marauders FOF generally averages the stats out over a season, and I consider the engine pretty good, but the per game stats are sometimes really on the extreme edges of NFL statistics.

Quarterbacks go 15/51 often?. How many coaches in the history of the NFL would not have pulled a quarterback playing so poorly before he ever got close to 51 passes? McNabb went 15 for 33 in week one this season, but that isn't even close to 51 passes.


It did happen in the demo, and the demo is the ultimate indication of game play, at least that is what many of the posters have indicated in this thread.


Which is it, does it happen or doesn't it happen?

If I displayed those stats for Maximum Football, a bunch of you would certainly speak up about how unrealistic the statistics were.

Again, I have already stated that the game balances out from what I have seen, and from what I have read on this board. I don't have a problem with Front Office Football. I like the game. My point is that some of the things that are pointed out here are not indicative of what Maximum Football does and does not do.

Someone should go back through all of the posts and count how many times this request has been made. Post a screenshot or two of the stats from the live game or season, if that's better.

I like the analogy to the electronic football game. I played my first one in 1970 and they had these great looking painted players of the Packers and Colts., with correct striping and logos.

I'm loving the irony of Marauders using an FOF demo to make his point. If only we could do the same with Maximum Football. How's that coming along, Marauders?

I detect a serious lack of understanding of the concept of Standard Deviation.

The same could be said for football.
And spelling.
And programming.
And the English language.

And those are just off the top of my head.

...

He aid it doesn't happen EVERY WEEK. Like it apparently does in maximum football if you don't put the caps. It does happen every now and then. Statistics of standard deviation. Doh.

I'm sure there have been worse games. I don't see how this is more unbelievable than a coach letting a QB get 7 INT's in one game.


I find it curious that you mentioned the 15/51 earlier but switch to completion % here. I bet he was he 2 for 7


177 yard average in two games is hardly a record. Also, people get 200 yards every once in a while. It even happens in back to back weeks. Even the same back doing it isn't unheard of, as Ricky Williams did it in 2002.


This is so rare, it happened twice last week...

Matt Schaub - 81.8%
Donovan McNabb - 80.8%

*sigh*

I said that is doesn't happen every week, just that it happens occasionally, and sometimes you might even find 2 or 3 weeks in a row where someone rushed for a lot of yards, but that it does not happen every single fucking week. Clear enough for you?


And I told you that in 15 SEASONS of play in my MP league, it happened about 25 times. I think my 15 years trumps your 2 week demo results.

At least it wasn't 225 yards on one run.
Unlike some other game we know..... ;)

That was fixed in the patch. Runs are now capped at 19 yards.

My mistake.

Tom Brady has come close to doing it all three weeks. (78.6%, 80.6%, 79.3%).

Please stop posting Tom Brady stats. st.cronin is magnetically drawn towards them and if posted in too many places, his body will split.

I have no idea why you guys are defending FOF. We all know it is better and a great game. End of discussion. Marauders we are still waiting for screenshots of the new game stats, until then, playing our demo for two game weeks and talking about stats in the Maximum Football thread has to beg the question what is your point? If you have some new screenshots, movies, game logs than post them, until then enjoy the FOF demo, if you find something that does not look right, that forum is right here.

That Marauders is even attempting to defend the quick sim engine for Maximum Hilarity 2.0 when it has to have hard caps like 19 yards for runs and 41 yards for passes in order to generate "realistic" stats just goes to show that he's either too blind to this game to understand how ridiculous he sounds, or he simply doesn't understand stats with any depth to realize how ridiculous he sounds.

In fact, it's ridiculous to say the game generates realistic stats when it has those caps, because those are unrealistic caps - these caps are merely a band-aid fix to a fundamentally broken sim engine if that's what it takes to generate "realistic" stats in quick-simming. As others have already pointed out, that doesn't even begin to address the implications of how such caps would fuck up the realism of how different teams with different styles of play would actually perform and what that would mean to the legitimacy of such quick-simming.

And to top it off, he tries to trash FOF based off a supposed demo he downloaded and the supposedly unrealistic results he got. As anyone here who has played the FOF games with any regularity knows, Jim's sim engine is extremely good. Yeah, it has some flaws (punting being a notable one), but they are very minor in comparison to what has come out of Maximum Hilarity.

But by all means Marauders, keep posting - you've revived this thread yet again and proved that this thread may never lose its ability to entertain.

fixed.

Forget screenshots of stats from MF2.0, I want to see shots of the secret tunnel between the inflatable helmet and the beer tent.

I really can't believe though that he's afraid to post screenshots of the stats. Surely you could go through and find something that looks reasonably realistic from just about any football game, just filter out all the screenshots that show the stupid stuff. Wait....maybe that's what he is doing and that's why it's taking so long! :D

Marauders, I have a question. You keep saying these hard-coded values can be changed by the user. Do the stats stop becoming realistic once they're changed?

In all seriousness, I agree. It's a very sad statement of where the game is that he has dodged this question for, what, 9 months?

Note that these values are only used in the sim game. Maximum Football was designed primarily as a live game (human vs CPU, CPU vs CPU, Human vs Human). The sim game is used if one does not want to have all of the games play out live.

As the values are changed, the statistics change as well. The live game has settings similar to Madden sliders that allows more scoring or less. The "hard coded values" for the sim game allow the game player to match the sim game to whatever has been set in the live game.

Some game players like more scoring like Madden has. Some people, like myself, enjoy scoring and statistics that are closer to the NFL or CFL. If the live game is tweaked either way, then the sim game should be as well to have similar stats for the league.

Right now, there are game players doing hybrid leagues (8 man on outdoor 100yd field ...), and they are trying to figure out what the sim values should be.

This is your 378th post in this thread - 120 more than the 2nd place poster (Bee). I think you should shoot for 400 by the end of this weekend.

Ooo ooo, this is where I get to come in again, right? Especially since later you blame Microsoft for forcing 2.0 on you?

Do you know what has changed for game developers from XP to Vista? Two items:

1. Limited User is now the default for everyone.
2. Some small installer changes to get on the Game Explorer.

Do you know why game developers have a hard time transitioning to Vista? Because they ignored the Limited User role in XP to begin with and played fast-and-loose with security.

Seriously, save off all your written files into "My Documents" (well, actually use the shell function ShGetFolderPath and pass CSIDL_PERSONAL, or ShGetSpecialFolder Path if you need pre-Win2k support) and you are pretty much done. Unless you're doing something truly hacky you probably shouldn't have done in the first place. I'm sure there may be other minor pieces (Registry security was another one that bit me about 4 years ago, but it was the same sort of issue).

Microsoft even provides the ApplicationCompatibilityToolkit to warn you of these things, and has for years.

Believe it or not this was my first time really digging into this thread, but I think that somes it up pretty well.

Fair enough, but why are you telling me as if I had any say in it? I don't work for Wintervalley Software, Matrix Games, or any other software developer that ran into problems with Vista. I am not a programmer.

In any case, changes were made, and code was rewritten. David changed some of the interface and changed the depth charts and other things as well.

So basically the answer to the original question is "yes".

Screw that, I'm planning on catching Antmeister by the end of the day. :D

Because twice you blamed the Vista port as the reason for 2.0. Your second was:


Microsoft did nothing of the sort.

I think some of you should be ashamed for how you're treating Marauders. He's just a gamer like the rest of us, discussing a game he likes, and trying to be as helpful and patient as possible to provide helpful information.

Or he's a paid shill. Either way, it doesn't matter. He is making ridiculous arguments and should expect to be called on them.

It sounds to me like his distribution is heavy-tailed. While this is far from the worst thing I've heard about this game, I'd be much happier if this hard-coded value that I could change were the AVERAGE yards per play (and maybe even the second moment, or the variance). That would actually be a really cool feature.

5,552 posts in, Kodos finally joins the fray. Never fear, my friends. Reinforcements are here!

Max Football suxxors!!1!

No, he's specifically ignoring repeated requests to provide helpful information. He's been asked to provide screenshots of stats 127.3495 times and acts as if the question has never been asked.

If he limited himself to "I like MF. For me the fun of playing the game outweighs the defeciencies in the engine," nobody would care. When he claims the game is sound statistically but refuses to provide proof, he sets himself up as an easy target.

Let's rock this joint!

Sssssssssssmokin'!

It is amazing the similarity in styles of Marauders trumpeting Max-FB and Mizzou B-Ball Fan's defense of the PS3. Can I get an IP check? :)

Ahhh... nothing like geek on geek violence. :D

Sorry if my sarcasm detector is on the fritz, but are you serious? He's defending the indefensible, a game that isn't close to Madden as a 3D football game and laughably far from FOF as a sim, yet takes pot-shots at both while failing to either grasp why his arguments are ridiculous (re: quick-simmed stats in Maximum Hilarity) or providing any evidence that said stats engine provides any kind of realistic results (which it can't anyway with maximum run and pass gains ridiculously limited).

Look, if I'm a buddy of Daivd's I look at Maximum Hilarity and say "Damn, that's an impressive amount of work for a single programmer to undertake - I admire your dedication and perserverance". As a customer though, I look at it and say "What's the point of this product? Unless my main interest in a football game is customized uniforms, this game does nothing that other products on the market don't do a lot better, and for something other than a very discounted price to reflect the (lack of) quality of the game".

Seriously, why would anyone come into this thread and try to trumpet a game and yet provide us with nothing. His purpose in coming here was to refute what was being said about the game, yet that may not be all the motives. I still don't understand why he would choose this thread to trumpet the game when he could have easily started a new thread.

It's almost as if he wants to thread to thrive. This thread has almost seen a certain death a couple of times and both times, he comes out of the blue when the thread had been inactive for a while.

If he really wanted to be helpful, he would be providing screenshots, information about a demo being released, elaborate on how to work the new features in the game, etc. Not happening.

"John Cena says that Maximum Football 2 doesn't NEED to prove anything to you! RAAAAAWR!"

Seriously. I want to see how the game has changed. I CAN'T GET TO THE GAME!

Funny, Matrix Games just rounded that up to 2.

Nice call by Riggins in Post 66 of the thread.

HEY MARUADERS,

Why do you keep ignoring the requests for screenshots showing realistic stats. We've been asking for months. A few months ago you said you would post them, you never did. You come on here and respond to questions, yet you completely ignore the requests for screenshots. How come?

Yeah, I'm itchin' to photoshop something new.

There'd have been an enormous and resounding outcry of rage if someone tried to come up in here with substantive Maximum Pratfall info in a new thread, Ant. Enormous. And Resounding.

This thread lives, and nothing you nor the forces of Darkness under the command of Daivd can do will change that fact.

VOTE ANTMEISTER

Oh, and hey, Brad.

Crim is acting a bit out of character by attacking Ant... wolflike, I gander.

Vote Crim

Hello.

VOTE PUMPY PIX

Saw this thread slowing down over the last couple of days, so let's try to get some wind in the sails.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1579666

Time to get nit-picky!

And another.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1578409






So don't think of Michael Vick as being out of football, think of him being fatigued from continually running.

And seriously the biggest issue with the new version of Maximum Football 2.0 is that End Zone art is not showing up.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1572994

It has the most views and posts. I mean who cares if your team actually lines up inside the end zone (might be fixed now) but if the end zone art does not show up, you are going to hear about it. :D

I can not resist.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1579371

This was posted yesterday as of yet, not response. Must be too busy working on the end zone art bug. :D

If I create a new utility that will convert FOF teams to Maximum Football rosters for the purpose of multiplayer game shots, can I call it "Maximator" to keep in line with my utility naming scheme, or do I have to stick with the default name "Maximizer"?

how about "maxibator"?

It seems as though every troubleshooting involves video cards. It's funny, when I play Civ4, Might and Magic, and more games of the sort, there is no problem whatsoever. And that was on and old machine. So how can a game that has so little statistical generation and AI require so much juice? Is the art and rendering that special? Why when people are asking about their QBs throwing 30 straight incompletions does frame rate enter in? Odd.

The thing that always makes me chuckle is when they write, "Good game! This is the best thing since FBPro98, but.....", and then they list a number of mind boggling issues like:

"My players are doing the YMCA around a live ball. I prefer the Cabbage Patch or Running Man but don't know how to change dance sequences."

"My Defensive End just threw a 225 yard bomb to the punter for 3 touchdowns all in one spectular play! Maybe this is something you can look into because I am pretty sure that should have counted for 5 safties."

"There's this 3D fan that bum rushes the field everytime I rename one of the players to Tom Brady. I think he's from some kind of street in the city of Cronin? Is there a Canadian city named Cronin? If not, I would like to customize the city details of that fan to represent an American city since I have created a Professional Pee Wee league."

"The players seem to be a different race below the waist then they are above the waist. This is an unacceptable level of customization. I want to be able to change the race for each body part so that it color coordinates with my Bengals-Panthers mish mash uniforms."

Now you're just being silly. Unless it imports the uniforms, it's of no use whatsoever. :D

I feel sorry for the players who are black above the waist and white below. It's like having to deal with all the racism without any of the advantages we have.
;)

You're black?

A black sheriff?

Video card issues have nothing to do with AI - it's all about rendering what you see. Since Maximum Hilarity is a 3D football game, there's a lot of graphical information to be processed on-screen - pushing 22+ skeletons (not sure if there are moving refs, sideline players/coaches or fans) all at once with textured models for all of those players, plus the environments and the lighting.

I believe I read that Daivd has updated the game to run using one of the 2 latest versions of DirectX (either 9 or 10), and if some of his customers are using older video cards that don't support that standard, or are simply underpowered given the nature of the game, I can easily see why video card issues would be the main focus of troubleshooting.

When I was with MS doing sports games prior to the Xbox, dealing with all the different possible video cards for our PC sports games was a nightmare.

Maybe he is black were it counts? ;)

Reading this thread reminded me of a thread from some years ago:

http://www.operationsports.com/fofc/...ad.php?t=10090

I'm not too up to date on gridiron text sims and know little about what has happened over the last 4 years. FOF has always been a little too dry for me. Have we seen anything closer to the game discussed in that thread yet? If so can you point me in the right direction?

I'm too lazy to see if this was posted previously, but I just saw this press release on Wargamer.com. The quotes are simply fantastic...

He really needs to work on his analogies.

"Football fans everywhere will want to hit this update and install it like it was a rushing hole on fourth and goal.”

Hahahahaha!

Denny Green, formerly of Oakland, CA echos the above sentiments, "I know my football and Maximum Football 2 is as realistic as it gets!"

Install it
Like it was a rushing hole
On fourth and goal.

It's like some bizarro Maximum haiku.

I love installing rushing holes.

"...for their well received football simulation and management game..."

:D

In the immortal words of the Godfather of Soul:

CAN I HIT IT AND QUIT IT?

Sherman, set the Wayback Machine to earlier in this thread...

How did you not highlight this...


Also, I can only hope that this is in reference to Daivd. What I would do to get down and dirty with the man himself...

It's version 2, bitches!

AAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

When there's something strange, on your computer screen
Who you gonna call?
Daivd!
When players teleport, and your beer tent's green
Who you gonna call?
Daivd!

The word "gaping" needed to be part of that press release.