You know, I think we bear some of the responsibility for the state of the game. I mean, we've been hammering Matrix and WinterValley for a long time, especially hard the last few weeks. Do you think they finally got fed up with the negative publicity and decided, "Fuck it, release the game and we'll deal with the bugs later."

And can you blame them? Realistically, theres no way that team of testers was going to uncover all of the bugs at the rate they've been going, so they were in for a world of hurt as far as bugs go no mater how many more times they backed off a release date. At least this way they were able to silence some of their critics, the "Vaporware" crowd.

Well put and I agree 100%.

I don't.

Sorry Toddzilla, but if it weren't for the absurd spectacle of releasing a game that's in such sorry shape, your comment might vie for the title of "Most Absurd Thing I've Seen This Week". Alas, the competition is simply too stiff this week for your post to be a contender.


You mean hard-to-find bugs like, oh ... plays starting IN the end zone?
C'mon, get real. That's one of the funniest bugs I can recall seeing in any sports game.


Given the sorry state of affairs at release, I'd say Matrix would have fared better if this HAD been vaporware. At this point, I believe they should be worried about how much damage the actual release will do to their reputation overall.

Albeit on a smaller scale (in terms of distribution), it looks to me as though Matrix has gotten themselves involved with a game that is to sports games what Zero Wing was to language translation.

If, after half a decade of programming, they let the thoughts of a few dczen people affect the release of this game, then they are more idiotic than previously thought possible.

I agree with this 100%. There are a number of people who have purchased their other games and they have built up a good track record thus far. This may damage their reputation (only time can tell).

And David had already done enough to give himself bad publicity.

I completely disagree. I don't think we have that much power. They were under their own internal pressure of having delayed the deadline ad nauseum.

I agree with several other posters that I find Erik's posts classy. However, I would really like to know if Matrix is going to have any kind of refund policy for those people who feel they were cheated.

So many great quotes, it's hard to pick which one to quote. I like the 'this thing is going to be huge when it hits.'

Pure hilarity

Matrix should just pull the plug. Refund any money to anyone who asks. Delete any mention of the game from it's website. Let Winter sell it on his own (I can only imagine he wouldn't even try). Pretend it never existed and hope everyone forgets.

Just wanted to comment on this... I don't know if I feel cheated... I had an idea of what I was getting myself into having followed MF for a few months and read up on it's illustrious (read: long) history. I have purchased other Matrix Games before through stores (Highway to the Reich, whatever iteration of the old "Bombing the Reich" game they decide to release) and have been happy with what I've gotten, but in this case I was rather frustrated not only with the product I paid for, but with my lack of judgment... I don't feel cheated cuz I dove head first into this one knowing there was rocks under the water. The game definitely needs another few months to develop and get polished (with one of those heavy duty industrial sanders) but Matrix isn't to blame for me buying it... I'm a marketing student and I know that all I need is a little push and some nice screenshots to get myself going about a game that is in an area that interests me. They did their job as business people and I did mine as an irrational consumer. I'll get over it, and the game will improve. I have no skill editing code or doing uniforms or making plays or anything, so I'm kinda stuck here waiting for someone else to do it all. If I could help, I would, but unfortunately I'm stuck trying to pay off my student loans while pretending to be an amazing Football coach in the NFL... Does Matrix owe me any money? Nope... cuz I was the idiot who bought it at full price :P I knew what I was getting into so I can't seem to rile myself up as much as some other people...

Erik, I'd like to chime in as well and say welcome to the community. Although we have more than a few slightly rabid members, I have to second the comments by several that if you have the, erm, forthrightness(?) to stick with it, you might find this a valuable community for your company's products.

That said, a few thoughts. You mentioned getting one or two builds a day right up til release...it *sounds* like the whole organization was in a "let's just get something stable enough to ship, we'll fix everything else with patches" mode. Given the long delays in getting the product out the door, this is certainly understandable, although probably the wrong thing to do. I know none of the organizations I've ever worked for would dream of releasing a major version, much less a 1.0, without a full test-cycle on the release candidate.

My suspicion, which I'm sure you can't do anything other than deny publicly, is in the last few days the whole feeling at Matrix has been one of regret for ever getting involved with this product in the first place. Someone in the business end (sorry if it's you) needs to be slapped upside the head for not putting in an escape clause in the deal with Wintervalley. And if you did have an escape clause and didn't exercise it, well, never mind then...

I'd have to agree with the sentiment that the worst part of this is the massive black eye Matrix has given themselves. My general feeling based on several purchases was that Matrix games were solid - now, it's hmm... "questionable"?

Here's hoping you can get Maximum patched into better shape!

Bubba is a one-stop source for QOTM material every time he posts :)

I sure hope he's never ever banned, because his presence is NEEDED in this community.

I think Matrix should be held responsible, not just "Wintervalley" or whatever. It was their beta testers, not his I believe. Some of these issues are so basic (penalties inside the 5, overtime stuff, punt yardage, stupid plays) that I wonder if they beta tested it thoroughly at all...

The best part is that he'll throw his weight around in polictical threads. The guy doesn't even have the ability to see that Maximum Football was going to be one of the all-time busts. We are supposed to believe he has the ability to critically think well enough to contribute to a political discussion?

This quote cracked me up more than any other. The man who started this thread and defended it decides that he will not purchase it. Surprised?

Sorry dude, all I ever see now when I see your name is Babboonheart calling you "Ant Mister" and I just lose it laughing....

What I find funny about this is that my particular political leanings allow one to think for themselves, complete with making personal mistakes (like investing your own social security retirement funds.)

You on the other hand obviously subscribe to the school of thought that you should 'be thought for' by big brother, your loving 'nanny-state' and then you attack me for my 'critical thinking" skills? Unbelievable.

Trent Dilfer can't find Football Jesus, so he fires to Warrick Dunn in the flat! Oh wait, this is FBPro98, not Maximum Football. C'mon Dilfer, wake up out there, man.

More nanny-state tripe? Why not let the customers decide if they want to buy it? What a radical idea, eh comrade?

Because not every person who is going to buy the game knows they're about to be ripped off.

lol

Yes, your next great quest in life can be maybe having a government recall on single-ply toilet paper...I mean folks that might buy that stuff just have no idea what they're in for.

To me it's not a question of the game being ready.

I would analogize it to this: you have someone who is smart, creative, dedicated, and by all accounts a very good writer. He might spend years trying to write a novel. But year after year, it's clear to anyone who reads a draft that it's a bad novel and can't be published. Maybe it has some potential. So he puts another couple years into it, rewrites it, reworks the plot, adds new characters, etc. Yet even though the novel has evolved, it's still a bad novel. It doesn't mean he's an idiot or a failure; it just means that he doesn't have that special something that it takes to write a good novel. Not everyone is Leo Tolstoy.

I see the same thing with David Winter. He's obviously bright, has some programing skills, has a vision of what he wants to do, but for whatever reasons he just can't make it happen. He's been working on it for five years and we see the result: teleportation, gliding big footed zombies, first and goal inside the end zone, ridiculous off the chart stats, all the bugs, etc., etc. Just as more work is not going to turn the novelist into Leo Tolstoy, more work isn't going to make Maximum-Football a good game. Time and effort are not the problem.

That's not to say everyone will or should hate the game. Bad novels do get published and there are always some people who really like them. I'm sure some people will love Maximum-Football. More power to them.

Jeez - you guys sure can't take a joke.

Dammit, put a smiley face after that and I would have known that it was a joke. Your netiquette repulses me! :D

Winter attempted to fill a niche long neglected. Just from the views on this thread alone it appears such a product can be lucrative. Maybe some bright-bulb from a larger developement company will take the hint and do one. Maybe modders will get this game running like they did with FBPRO in the past. Jury is still very much out on this game and its potential. And I am getting the game, just letting the bugs get worked out first.

Still have to give Winter credit for doing what he has and getting this far. For his critics, well we all anxiously await your football sims. Since you are so quick to know how Winter screwed it up you should be able to get it right yourselves.

I hope Winter's game gets fixed and he goes on to great success not only on this game but on its sequel. You critics make me think of that poem 'the Arena' that Teddy Roosevelt liked. So finish your blunts and keep the mediocre quips coming. BTW, for true original humor look up some of Babboonheart's stuff on the Matrix forums. Most of you could take lessons.

I'm sure with loyal customers like you he's well on the way to fame and fortune.

Oh wait...

Or possibly instead of being based on 'nanny-state tripe' political views he thinks that a company would be wise distance itself from a faulty product that could hurt their reputation with prospective customers down the road, and try and save face by refunding customers after what they bought wasn't what they were told they were getting. Either way.

But no, you're probably right about it being a political thing.

I liked this thread better when Bubba Wheels didn't spark dog-piles. Maybe we have finally found our thread-kill out?

Speaking of which. I wonder who will ultimately be the thread killer? :)

I'm ruling Bubba Wheels out right now.

Thanks Bubba for putting this thread back on track.

LOL!

I'll do it!

Good luck getting a refund. This is software, baby. Caveat emptor.

I don't think single-ply fails to deliver what anyone expects.

However, it seems to me that Maximum Football has a myriad of unworking features, flat out broken parts, and just whack gameplay (obvious money plays).

I am surprised when I saw this thread, but it seems that all the stats are in one field in the database. What?
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1078275

I wonder if they should show any more screen shots. I am noticing a lot of bi-racial players. They are black above the torso and white below.

Damn!

I thought Bubba's return to this thread would be a lot funnier.


:(

LOL! bi-racial dudes :D

They're like the twins that came in two colors except that guy didn'T have a twin, so he came out with different colors above and under the belt.... hrm, wonder what color is the thing at belt level (or slightly under belt level ;))? Nope, don't even want to know :D

FM

The white legs are just really dry skin.

LOL! When I get ashy, my legs don't get a bronzed tan. This is a science experiment/football something.

In all fairness, the Arizona State players could just be guys with uneven tans...

Funniest thing I've ever seen in a sports game resulted from a corrupted copy of MicroLeague Baseball for the C64. Turns out you could copy the GM/Box Score disks cleanly, but not the Game disk. Anyway, we were playing a game that seems to be fine when all of a sudden, the little smurf players started running through the outfield wall, across the field, and generally all over the place. At the same time, the scoreboard was still attempting to display text describing the action (I liked how MicroLeague did this btw, and really it isn't that far from what OOTP still does, or at least did in v5...haven't yet played v6). The action went something like:

CAREW CAREW!

CAREW CAREW CAREW!!

Still makes me smile. Guess that's the 13yo in me.

Why are those offensive and defensive linemen dancing with each other?:)

No shit, get a room, people, jeez.

Heaven help me I miss Football Pro.

I actually loaded FBPRO 98 on to my machine and gave it a whirl. It's not nearly as pretty as that screenshot makes it out. But it works! :D

I really wonder what happened to my copy of FBPro 98...

I wish I could find mine as well.

Here's Football Pro on E-Bay. Woot! Was this the first one or the second one???


http://cgi.ebay.com/Front-Page-Sport...QQcmdZViewItem

WOW.

I have FBPro 98 and never played it or really heard much of it. I received it as a gift in maybe 99, but never installed it on my computer (I wasn't much into computer games at the time). Looks like I missed out on something :(
That's the one with Marino on the cover, right?

Or hell, get the whole numbered series.


http://cgi.ebay.com/Front-Page-Sport...ayphotohosting