I completely agree. I wonder if Matrix is going to give refunds to those who ask for one.

It's just amazing. I was just looking through the threads and keep seeing similar responses that they have seen it before. If it was something minor (like the play by play displaying the information wrong), I could live with that, but when you are talking about things that can make or break any game, that just bothers me.

I do give Matrix (Erik & Paul) credit for trying to stay on top of the release, though. They have been answering questions well past midnight on their forums.

I'm not trying to make fun of the game here but where did these names come from? I mean one or two Hongistos or Eckenfels, ok but the whole scoresheet? What ever happened to Johnson or Smith?

Of course there are plenty of other games that have the same name problems but damn all those in one place really threw me :D

EFTHIMIOU hands off to HONGISTO, who pitches it back to NEUDECK, who is throwing it back across the field to WIOHWOIHWPOJOPJ!

TOUCHDOWN!!!!!

dola, my next IHOF rookie will absolutely be renamed Efthimiou Hongisto.

I knew a guy that worked for Cray Computers. He was an analyst of some kind and did some programing at home where he made a random letter generator. I told him there wouldn't be market for his little program, little did I know. :)

:D

Cheers for coming here and posting Erik.

I second that.


:rolleyes:

I'd love to see that. :D

please, PLEASE, PLEASE keep posting here.

Even though this thread has taken a turn for the more serious, you really add a lot. It's just not as much fun if we're all skeptics, we desperately need the true believers to remain true.

Erik -- it's really great to see you posting here. I hope you ultimately make the same decision that other developers and distriubutors have... that this community includes quite a lot of potential customers for a product like this, and despite our attempts at humor, we pretty much all do root for this (broadly defined) genre of software. There are a *lot* of us here who are very open to paying for a game like this if it shows promise. Your attitude, both over at the Matrix forums and in your posts here thus far, have been a very encouraging effort in that regard.

Whether you stick around here and help out those who have comments or concerns posted here is your call -- but I am really glad to see you avoid the (certain) temptation to simply write off the community completely.

MIJB#19

Well, this game always was about the mod community and what it would do with it. Not being a programmer, why wouldn't I wait for those more technically knowledgable to get this thing up and running before I got it? Erik says pretty much the same thing, and I think many also hold this view.

BTW, shouldn't you be busy, you know, sniffing tulips or something? :)

JEEBS! Now your name is in a game! I almost missed it, but then I remember Winter can't spel fer shit!

just like doc, I completely agree with this assessment. I mean, $40 seems like a high price tag for the indie software scene. That the game has bugs/isssues is one thing but that they know about it and keep it on a readme.txt file inside the zip file of the game and tell you about it once you've paid for the darn thing, well, that just reeks of crookery, unless they give refund to people who ask for one, then it's pure bad form...

FM

Hey Eaglesfan27 or anyone else that has the game, I have a question for you guys... Is the AI always playing the 3-4 against you without fail? I'm curious if it's actually picking something other than 2 or 3 plays based on the 3-4.. So far all 4 games I've played have been against the 3-4 exclusively and it appears that they run the same 3 plays from the basic 3-4 playset all game...

I'd like to echo Quik's thoughts regarding Erik as well. Welcome, great to see you here and I too hope that you don't write the community off.

Having said that, I too am a bit surprised at the state the game is in. There are quite a few indications, even at this early state, that the game simply isn't finished, and more over, that Matrix and David knew this.

Stating that there are bugs before you release a game is one thing, but when features of the game don't seem to be working (is it really true that stat tracking for leagues doesn't work, and many long passes are nearly unstoppable with the default playbooks?), the situation goes beyond "bugs". Those are situations that the customer should know about before buying the game.

In such cases, it seems to me that the words "you can customize it" are being used as a euphemism for "you can fix it", but even that isn't true given the game's current state.

Again, it's a bit early to jump to conclusions. Most of the reports are from only a couple of people and it would be helpful to see more people reporting the same problems, but I am surprised by some of the early reports. The good thing behind all this is that there does seem to be a good game concept in Maximum Football. Just needs more a lot more work to get it all right.

Rouge (french for red) is spelled correctly. You used to subtract the point so, if you had zero points, you went into the red..

This is an awesome feature that, I think, should be added to the NFL. In fact, why stop at the end zone?

It's the Eagles ball from section 226 row 15, all they need is to be sacked for 18 yards to get the tying touchdown.

Dola-

Wow, that crazy offsides/face mask touchdown bug doesn't seem to be an isolated problem according to this thread > http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1077136

About 6 people reported similiar problems... including one beta tester - who's later response was 'Sounds like a problem with ... the size of the player's shoes.'

Sounds like a winner.... How the hell do you miss something that major?

So it's not really a full game, just a framework relying on users to fix and mod it, but it's still selling for the price of a full game?

?????

You're not alone, that comment practically lept off the page and slapped me in the head.

Me, too. Disappointed I can see... surprised, not at all.

And in this genre, that selling price is at the high end.

Paying $40 to be a beta tester since the first round of testing apparently failed. Just swell.

No, that is a common misconception with many game releases. The beta testing do find many more bugs and problems than officially reported. The developers/publishers are well aware of a lot of the issues but because of timing and wanting to release, many of the problems are purposely not fixed. They will be at a later date if the expenses can be justified. Because the customers see a lot of problems, it is customary to blame the testers. Believe me, they saw most (not all) of the same problems. ("They" meaning testers in general, not talking specifically about M-F.)

I don't have the game. I strongly suspected there would be a large number of bugs. However, I'm very interested in seeing how Matrix will handle this situation as it will influence my future purchases from them.


Edited to add: I've bought at least 3 games from them in the past off of the top of my head.

WOW

This game should never been release. Its not even close to being ready.

I simply cannot believe people would pay money for this game after reading even a tenth of what's been posted here (jokes aside)...not to mention those who have followed this thing closely over at their site. Sure, we want to see indie game developers succeed, but thisis a debacle. And the whole thing's apparently been chronicled on the net fo the past 5 years or so.

Call it a stupid hope that things would work out. I'll take my dunce cap and sit inthe corner. ;)

fyi,

Login	Message << Older Topic Newer Topic >>

Short list of items I'm addressing. (March 4) - 3/4/2006 5:38:51 PM David Winter Moderator Posts: 624 Joined: 11/23/2004 From: Vancouver, BC Status: online Hi. I've scanned through the support forum and have created a shot list of things to address. These will be handled in the first update. I am sorry I can no provide a date for that yet as I've not done enough analyses of the problems. These are listed, more or less, in order of importance. My goal is (and this is very much subject to outside factors) is that I get an update for the game towards the end of each week for the next few weeks. Any build I create needs to go through our internal QA first and I do not have any estimates on how long that process will last. Microsoft has their 1st Tuesday of the month schedule for Windows updates, the game's will be a little more often during it's first weeks of life. I apologize if this is going to cause inconvenience or confusion. - Crashes. Sphar V23 and a couple of others are reporting crashes with the draft and league creation. These are not something that were found during testing that I'm aware of. They sound like they're all related to the creation of a new league. yes? The various Run Time Errors (RTE) will also be looked at. I've compiled a list of those by reading the support forum. - Penalties. No need to mention who reported that because everyone seems to be This is the highest priority game play fix. - Clock. The clock not stopping on a 3rd down incomplete pass is a low risk fix. But keep in mind, as per the manual, the clock rules are not currently tied to the league you create. The clock rules are somewhat of a hybrid system right now sharing rules from the various leagues. - Database needs converting in Access 2k and higher. This is by design and won't be changed. The version of the JET database engine (the core portion of MS ACCESS) is 2.5. This was chosen specifically for its low memory footprint and ease of distribution. It's the simplest and smallest version of the engine. Game play related items (I would think most things stats related fall into this area) will be looked at but I can not say if any changes will get into the first update. - Finally. Obviously some issues cropped up we were not aware of. I would like to thank those people who are helping out getting other gamers get past these problems for their help and I hope people are finding the game fun regardless of these setbacks. Matrix and I will get them sorted out. David Winter Developer. ------------------ Report | Post #: 1

RE: Short list of items I'm addressing. (March 4) - 3/4/2006 6:44:18 PM Erik Rutins Administrator Posts: 6991 Joined: 3/28/2000 From: Vermont, USA Status: online I just wanted to add to this that we will be working with David to get the first update out as quickly as possible and will continue to expedite the update process until all priority issues have been addressed, at which point we will take stock and decide on a more normal update process. I'm sorry these issues slipped through testing. There are number of them that seem system configuration specific which we had no chance to catch and others may have been caused by the rapid changes of the last two weeks and the fact that we did not have a chance to test every possible combination. We did start new leagues during testing, but something obviously is creating a problem with that process now. While I regret these issues made it to release, we take responsibility for that and will fix them as quickly as possible. Regards, - Erik _____________________________ Erik Rutins Director of Product Development and Business Relations (in reply to David Winter) Report | Post #: 2

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Maybe they should have tested the combination of installing and then playing the game. That's a combination that would have yielded some accurate test results.

You know, this game would have done much better if he would have released the game as freeware when he was first developing it and then as he got closer to a much complete product, he could have moved into the shareware arena.

With the length of time it took him to create the game, he would have gotten virtually no heat if he would have gone this route since everyone would have had a chance to both try out his game as well as help him develop it.

As it stands right now, since there is no demo, I can only go by what others are saying and sadly word of mouth is going to hurt sales for this game. I think the smart thing that Matrix did was call this a Football Construction Kit.

Matrix is partially to blame for this, because they annonced the game had "gone gold" and instantly put the pressure on that they had to release it soon. Unfortunately the bugs are not minor things that can be tweaked and I hope this doesn't put a dent in their image.

Known Issues...
 

I wanted to comment quickly on one perception. We thought the game had no severe issues when we shipped. I had not seen that facemask penalty bug nor seen it reported. We knew there were some minor penalty issues, but with so many reports of that, it must have slipped into one of the last two builds. The new league issues were also an area that had been tested within the last month, but not more recently, unfortunately. Some other issues seem system-specific or only happen on systems that are below spec or with old drivers - that type of stuff we expect.

It was impossible to re-test everything with one or two new builds a day. I regret that these things slipped through and I and the rest of the folks at Matrix take responsibility for that. We're working with David to get these resolved ASAP and we're expediting things as much as possible to get updates out there to the paying customers, weekly if need be.

For those who were wondering, here is the known issues list that we shipped with. These are all noted in the readme as being planned for resolution after release. None of these were of the type that would stop a release or should cause any major problems, given that all severe issues we knew about had been resolved.
Known Issues:

1. Dual monitors. Maximum-Football does not currently support dual monitors. To play Maximum-Football, Right-Click on your desktop and select Properties. Set your display to single display mode. Consult your graphics card manual for more specifics on how to do this.

2. Roster moves are not properly being recorded in the league news.

3. The post play summary can incorrectly report ball position. It sometimes reports that a play gained 4 yards when in fact it may have gained 5. As the post play summary is there to represent what an announcer might say it was decided that being off by one or so yards from time to time was acceptable.

4. High resolution stadium fans may not render. This is due to low video card memory. If you notice that the fans in high resolution stadiums are not being displayed, you may need to use low resolution stadiums.

5. Non North American date time formats. Maximum-Football requires your computer’s date and time format to be Canadian or American format. Date & Time formats for regions such as Germany will cause the game and utilities to crash. Go to Control Panel and Region Settings to change your date time format settings.

6. "My game statistics seem too high(or low)." Due to the wide range of game styles Maximum-Football needs to support, it is possible that the game result statistics may seem either too high or too low for your favourite game play style. Adjusting your leagues player Skill Attributes normally compensates for this. Creating new offensive or defensive plays that better suit your play style may also help.

7. There are some issues with the penalty system that occasionally cause it to give improper penalty distances for different rules combinations.

I sort of agree with this but at what point do you release the game just so you can get the shitstorm over with. Kind of like Dreamcatcher holding the latest gold master of Battlecruiser in their hands.

Yikes. That's not good at all.

This is all going to end badly.

going to?

More like..

has, and we knew it would

I don't think it has ended yet.

I can see Over-time was thoroughly tested....

So far i've counted at least 3 issues that make this game unplayable and three or four more which make it not worth purchesing.

Well done, Daivd.

I can't believe this guy has disillusioned enough to continue development on this highly flawed game for FIVE YEARS. There's no way that any reasonable person could be playing the game and testing it and saying "this is great. I'm making good progress. I should release this to the public; i'll make a lot of money."

EDIT: Wow.. here are a few real good ones:

I thought the game would be weak, but I thought Matrix's influence would have kind of gotten it to a state that it would limp along, somewhat functionally. I didn't think they would release something where so many features simply aren't working. In that regard, I'm surprised that the game seems completely unfinished and untested.

The bugs I expected, but things I've heard that just stun me:
1. A 76-0 game at the half, using default rosters and playbooks?
2. League stats that don't work at all?
3. At the end of each season there is a 40-60 round draft and you have to manually pare your team down? Every year? Somehow this doesn't greatly impact the quality of players on the team?
4. "Long pass" is a money play?

So in that regard, yes, I am surprised that the game is in the state it's in.

You know, for what it's worth, I've been nothing but impressed with Erik's dedication to helping fix things. I'm certainly not about to buy the game, but if they can ignore the constant (and possibly deserved) mudslinging and keep improving the game, at some point it might even be playable.

Hmm... That date will probably be somewhere around 2010 at the rate that they're "developing" this game. To releasea piece of software at this quality and expect people to pay $40 for it off the bat is insanity. Especially with no demo.

From this thread: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1077565

Best. Post. Ever.

LOL true classic

Just got through reading some of the comments on the Matrix board and catching up in this thread. Looks like the game's as bad as we all feared, despite a couple of the diehard fans trying to grasp at straws. I'm sure with a few patches, they will get the game to function without the RTEs and crashes but I think the AI and some of the other gameplay issues is pretty much there to stay. I'm definitely not surprised by the state of the game, but I'm a little disappointed that we weren't proven wrong because I'd much rather have another football game than to have been right.