Ouch.

I think someone has hit on it.

The poeple enjoying M-F now (which judging by the message board has to be pretty small) are not enjoying it for being anything resembling a good sim of pro football. They like seeing their uniform designs on the field, or changing around all kinds of rules, etc. But not because of anything resembling the game of football.

Daivd can continue to cater to that, but if he wants to actually increase sales.. well...

It does seem like the core customer for this game fits into a very small group, the graphically hypnotized, not dexterous enough to win at Madden, statistically unconcerned, something somewhat resembling football fans.

Please point me to the thread where this is at. Because to say that this game has come a long way and you still have those type of statistics is ridiculous.

So, people who watched the XFL?

After a while digging through at Matrix I can't find the thread that I pulled that from and searches tell me it doesn't exist.

But I did find this. From 12/16/2006. http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1328201

To echo Digamma, look how bunched the ratings are for these QBs. It's from the same thread as above.

This is rich.

Anyone who can complete only 25% of his passes yet somehow parlays that into a 30.5% TD pct is A-OK in my book.

Interestingly, Hirshberg's longest completion is 71 yards, but he's averaging an amazingly consistent 74.7 yards per completion.

You can't stop Hirshberg utilizing physics or other universal laws. You can only hope to contain him.

The game probably has come a long way, and those stats are an improvement from where it was 9 months ago. Sad, but probably true.

Chicago's QB Mayer has stats that I've seen in a real NFL game.

And one last one. From 12/17/2006. http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1328592

To be fair Daivd says he's going to completely redesign the quick sim engine for release 4. Of course as it stands now, I don't see any reason to drop 50$ on this.



I love Holzmeister and his incredible 13 for 257 season.

That team has a lot of QBs.

Al Davis' fingerprints are all over the offensive schemes these teams are apparently using, judging from the QB stats.

In looking at it more I have to give Holzmeister some credit. 2 sacks in 257 attempts is pretty good.

No, what ought to be "locked down" are the people at Matrix and Daivd for fraud and false advertising.

And, judging from the last few pages of this thread, perhaps you. For your own safety, as you're clearly not of sound mind and could constitute a hazard to yourself or those around you.

I'm sure it's been stated before in this thread...but having not read every page (many, but not most)...I'll state my 2 cents on his next steps, to make his game more appealing, with the least amount of effort possible.

Create the mechanisms & hooks for a robust career mode. He should create a "Career Mode Shell" & do this in the hope that somebody will mod it & add some GM AI.

Perhaps if he offered some basic foundation modules to use for certain functions(draft shell, new player generation module, salary system, basic trade AI module, player development module, etc), he could allow the community to help create the advanced features typically expected from a football simulator by most fans "looking to play a football sim".

My guess is the majority of his customer base are people who mistakenly bought the game with incorrect assumptions, or those who enjoy feeling like they are "helping to make something big" by beta testing 9-10 months after the release. But he isnt going to make a living on Madden-haters who simply want to add some custom graphics, some playbook options, but sacrifice all of the GM features it offers(albeit, not very well).

With that...I'll stop trying to rationally comment on a game that may have had some nice potential at one time, but is clearly not going to become a simulation. It just strikes me as odd...why would somebody want super-sophisticated coaching playbook design capabilities, just to use them on an unsound "result generator".

I would go with Bennafield...24 completions in only 13 attempts.

That is production!!

Those screen shots are from a beta build that had a bug that was cleaned up on the next build. The stats you see are not the statistics that game play generated.

It seems to me, this is exactly what Daivd was hoping, mod developers jump in and finish off all the boring text sim stuff.

Could you post some current screen shots.
Every time anyone posts shots, they are always old or from a beta.

So, for the 400th time.

Convince us otherwise.

You keep posting things where Daivd claims it's been fixed... where you say you like it...

PROVE it.. it's very easy.. if these things really are fixed, then it should be very simple for you to post some informatin that shows these things have been improved.

NEVER!

Sure does...I should have added that the price should also be reflective of a game which requires so much modd-ing.

Surtt: It's in perpetual Beta. These screen shots are the only ones I can find that shows stats and they're just about a month old.

Marauders: The quote you posted about adding 45 doesn't apply to these screen shots. None of these stats, except longest td and two att/comp, seem to be typos. So the question is, are these stats generally accurate for sim play?

Accurate as compared to what?
(Just anticipating the next dodge)

Followed by: It depends upon what you mean by "accurate".

Thank goodness it will be coming soon.

Thank you, that clears everything up. I'd like to order 10,000 copies please.

Sure. But for every additional copy you purchase, instead of adding 50 dollars to the total price, the digits 5 and 0 will be added to the end of the price. So you'll be paying 505050...et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

Wow, that are a lot of beer tents.

This thread is amazing. Never has so much been said about so little.

It's going on my Maximum MasterCard. I'll actually be making money with the negative interest rates.

And being able to earn that negative interest from within your opponents end zone, oops, I mean from a date prior to even making the purchase, makes that even more inviting.

Gah, I have a $1000 dollar limit, but keep being charged for $1670 purchases!

On a positive note, you can be standing outside the store in which you are attempting to purchase an item and still be able to swipe your card.

Steve, thank you for your intelligent post.

I do grasp the valid reservations of people here, people on Football Freaks, and people on FBPro message boards. I have many of the same reservations myself, and I have voiced that on the Matrix Games public and beta boards.

The difference is that I am constructively working toward a solution, while there are many people here who would rather spout off potty words and cliche' phrases of discontent.

The irony is that they have no vested interest in the outcome of Maximum-Football; yet, they talk about it like they know more than they do and that they were harmed in some way.


I understand this, and I have stated from the start that I agree with this. I have also stated that cleaning up the game and adding the features the purchasers of the game want was the greatest concern, because unlike the people here, those people do have a vested interest in the game because they have paid for it.


I agree. A demo would be nice (syn: agreeable, favorable, good, welcome, or to one's liking).


It certainly may be judged, but reading posts here that are distorted or simply no longer apply shows that the judgment is not often based on the facts as they stand.

There are many people who post on the Matrix Games message board that do not own Maximum-Football. Some of them are courteous and constructive, and others of them are rude and degrating. If you were the developer, or even a volunteer beta tester, which would you listen to?


That is a fair perception, but it is less applicable in this case, because I know how much work David puts into this project, and time is a major concern. That stated, I have lobbied to have a demo put out.


The game was not created with an expansive career mode in mind. I believe that expectations have caused undue negativity because of this.

I do not ask anyone to purchase Maximum-Football based on a pig in a poke. People must decide on their own if they are willing to support this indie effort or wait until they are sure that the game is up to a personal standard.

I wonder how many people took a chance on early versions of FOF and allowed it to be what it is now. Some people were willing to do so, and other were either unwilling or unable to do so, which is fine. The point is that the game is where it is now because of the willingness of the few to take a chance on a product when its success was uncertain.


There is a large enough market. Maximum-Football does not pretend to be Madden-Light, as Madden is now a console video game and not much more. Then again, Madden doesn't have to be.

As far as pricing goes, I am sure that you all know David did not want Maximum-Football to be priced higher than $30. That was his target price. He stated so many times on the old forums. The pricing was the decision of Matrix Games.

I agree with you and David that $29.99 is a much better price point for Maximum-Football.

That's odd because with my Maximum Mastercard, I was able to raise my credit limit to $1500 dollars when I made $500 worth of purchases. However the interest rate concerns me because it went up to 62%, but that okay because I have a balance of -$250, and I was informed they were going to send me a cashier's check.

I hear that Jerry Seinfeld is going to be in a commercial with Mxyzptlk in these new Maximum Mastercard commercials.

You forgot to answer this.

David has been very open about having the game in open source files that can be modded.

Again, he did not intend the game to include Career and GM functions in the game until, perhaps, a future version of the game.

This is correct.

Marauders: I'm not trying to be an ass, but if these screenshots aren't accurate can you please post some that are. Statistical accuracy is probably the biggest concern for most FOFC folks. If there isn't going to be a demo can we at least get some evidence that stats are at least in the ballpark.

That relates to constructive criticism. We simply can't give constructive criticism when the numbers are so far off. The information we have, admittedly limited (primarily by Matrix/Daivd) leaves us with the impression that the game is many, many steps away from producing realistic results.

In reading through the Matrix forums it seems that stats aren't discussed much. As I said earlier I just don't think it's a big concern for the community. The constructive criticism is mostly about playbook features or uniforms or game stopping bugs. None of that matters to me if the underlying engine produces unrealistic results.

I'm happy that's it's a good game for you and that you get satisfaction out of helping Daivd. For me, that's not enough. I have limited time and limited money. When I am asked to spend 50$, a price above most other PC games, I want a game that is at a minimum able to replicate what it claims. MF, after years in development still can't cover the basics.

Marauders, are you like George Costanza....must be liked by everyone?

Why must FOFC like MF? Or even take it seriously. What difference does it make? Are you on some "I'm a new mod power trip?".

Who Marauders? Jennfier Wintre or Daivd Wintre?

Seems much more like a medicated Jneifier Wniter to me.

Geeze, I can't stand the George Costanza character.

Naw, I keep tabs on many PC Football games and many websites. I haven't popped in here to post, even though I have been registered since April, because this thread wasn't really about Maximum-Football or anything worthwhile really. There is more spam in this thread than in the Hormel plant in Austin.

I did post to see if anyone wanted updated information or if anyone had questions.

No, it has nothing to do with being a mod. I post to other sites, and I have for quite a while.

Actually, I consider myself a rocker rather than a mod, but I'm not sure many of the young folk here would understand that statement unless they are fans of The Who.

Marauders:

You continue, as northwood points out above, to completely dodge the issue.

Provide any kind of evidence that you can consistely sim/play through an individual game and have a good experience/reasonable stats.

Please, do this and you will prove us all wrong. All of us are making informed judgements based on the evidence presented to us, and thus far that evidence has been that it's a complete disaster.

Yes, there are some jokesters here, but many of us (myself included) are trying to explain this to you. You say we say things without knowing, but what we know is what is presented - screen shots and data, even that provided by the developer himself, that shows the game to a complete and umitigated disaster.

If you refuse to dodge this question, then I have to question if you really had the true good intentions in coming here that you say you do - which I believed at first.

Please update us with details of how the game has improved. Not line items from a bug fix log, but actually information from within the game.

That's the updated information we all want.

so like if he dodges the question then he's ok?

Post current screen shots? And take the time out to stop working on *what* pray tell?!?!?

This thread is the largest, most complete piece of artwork that this board has even been apart of. I think every person who has in some way contributed or voiced their opinion in this thread will be proud to know that the only good thing that MF ever did was be the genesis of this thread.

The people on this board will always have a more vested interest in this game than you and all your ass backward stats and uniform designers combined.

Oh and thank you for starting a new chapter in this thread.

Oh and, we have a vested interested for two reasons.

A) We would all love to see a game like this done well.
B) We are offended when someone tries to completely rip-off gamers like us with garbage like this.

That's poetry right there.

At an absolute minimum, even if a game doesn't mimic what you would expect in real life that it at least represents accurately what is contained in the sim engine. If a QB is 1 - 100 for 50 yards and with 1 TD.. I'd expect him to have a 1% completion percentage, average of 50.0 yards per completion and a long pass of 50 yards.. .not a long of 74 yards, 5% completion rate and 6 tds listed.

Those types of issues are much more different than say too many 2000 yards rushers. If you can't get the basics right, then I have to assume that there is very little that is right in the game. That is what is the main difference in Jim's first effort vs Maximum Football..

Exactly. That's why I broke it down and said I want to see results from individual games even if you're going to pimp this as for individual games, or seasons. Let's break it down then. Let's see what it looks like for an individual game.

There was a time when I doubted this thread had the juice to get to 100 pages.

I wonder what Tom Brady's stats would look like in M-F?

320 passes attempted, 441 passes completed, 461 touchdowns, 320 interceptions, 0 sacks for 517 yards, -8,404 yards passing.

that looks about right, but I'm pretty sure there would be some decimals somewhere in there, like 320.2345 passes attempted and 320.452466545845 interceptions.

FM

I'm really hoping Marauders produces some screen shots of stats that are from a "real" build. The comedic factor would be huge.

That's what gets me. Some of these things are the most basic of calculations that could be accomplished on a, ahem, 'spreadsheet.' The fact that someone has not (or cannot) take the time to link stats like attempts and completions to provide an accurate calculation of completion percentage - aside from whether the numbers make sense in a football context - absolutely baffles me. Some of the stats - given the completions, yards, and longest passes - are mathematically impossible, let alone remotely realistic for a football game.

*shakes head*

Don't you get it? It's cause the stats are in 3d! The longest pass stat reflects not the yardage gained on the field, but the actual distance travelled by the ball through the air! Daivd is a genius! :eek:

My guess is he's frantically trying to find a sorting method in the stats that only show halfway normal ones.

Hmm... remember the one site that translated regular text into AOL-ized text? Someone should make a similar thing, but instead comverting football stats into M-F stats.

I wasn't aware of the very first release of FOF, but every version since then has had a demo version available so customers could try out the game before they bought it. The "chance" these customers were taking in buying FOF was much less than the "chance" anyone takes in buying M-F, so whatever point you are trying to make here isn't working for me.

The fact is that Jim took on a project with a realistic scope and then delivered in a reasonable amount of time with a product that was, while not bug-free, a very stable game that delivered on the vast majority of the things it was designed to do.

Daivd on the other hand took on a project with a scope way beyond the reach of any sane 1-man programming outfit, not surprisingly has taken many years to release his product, and has shown repeatedly over the last year that his product really isn't very close to being something that delivers what it purports to represent.

If this was a hobby and Daivd was doing a free, public beta he would have a lot more support for his project on these boards (though to be sure, there would still be some ridiculing the problems in his builds). But the fact he decided to make a business out of this project means the bar was raised a great deal in terms of expectations. Very few of us here are interested in paying $50 to take part in a very extended beta-testing process, and that's what M-F is.

I'm praying for some new screenshots to start a new round of Photoshop Hell.

FOF1 did have a demo. I played it for about 10 minutes, and then ordered the game.

When I first saw FOF1 in my almost daily search for a football sim of this nature that wasn't just a replay sim, I about pissed myself.

When I played the demo, I pissed myself.

When I got the game, there wasn't a single bug on it that could stop me from blowing a text sim loving load all over the keyboard.

Since then, the game has improved significantly with each release, which have all been patched to near perfection within months of the release, as well as added to periodically just as a bonus.

And the game cost less than 40 dollars.

For someone like me, who dreamed of playing this exact game since about age 12, its been one of the most enjoyable games I have ever played. I have never felt let down in any way by any version of FOF that Jim has produced. Thats just the truth.

When I think about Jims game and the only thing that could make it better, I thnk about Tecmo Super Bowl + FOF. Thats what I think about.

If I ever saw a game that was reasonably close to completing that combination, say Madden + FOF or Football Pro + FOF, I would feel justified paying a large sum for it, because I would never stop playing it.

If I saw a reasonable facsimile for sale that at least came close to the general idea and was still playable, I would pay 50 dollars for it still, even if it wasn't exactly what I was looking for.

If I saw a game that seemed to insult the person who plays it by being so bad as to be unplayable, I wouldn't waste a cent on it. I think thats what I see with Maximum Football at the moment. I think thats why it upsets me that people are being sold this for more than the current gen versions of Madden cost.

I think thats why I am talking about it in a forum, so others arent suckered into wasting their money on something that isn't anywhere near delivering on a promise of that much value.

Just my opinion.

:D

and you people have the nerve to call me a troll?

the person comes here trying to extend an olive branch and open a channel of constructive communication and all you can do is try to be the guy who comes up with the next funny post so you can say you contributed to this thread.

this is ridiculous. way to represent this community. this stuff stopped being funny 70 pages ago. you guys wouldn't want to give this game a chance, cuz that would mean not being able to joke about the game anymore.

HA, there's being contrary, and there's being an idiot. Check where that line is

A good lot of posts have explained why we still won't buy a crap game sight unseen. Using posts and screenshots of current, ONGOING issues from the Matrix boards

Yeah, that's what's happening HA - all of us are simply trolling and making fun of the game and the comments from those associated with the game with no reason for doing so.

Yep, that's exactly what's going on. Yep.

It's funny when HA shows his sensitive side. Not as funny as his hero-f*ckin' side, but funny nonetheless.

Sounds like it's still got 30 pages over your body of work.

Marauders, I can get all of these people to stop making fun of you or Maximum Football if you pay me $50. Now I won't give you a demonstration of how that will happen. You just have to trust me.

If he knocked this bad boy down to $20 I would so buy it. I wanna play it, I wanna play it very badly.

I am always amazed at how this thread comes back from the dead.

I am starting to wonder if it is possible that Marauders got pissed off during beta testing because of a disagreement and is trying to indirectly influence the game. Because none of this makes any sense.

If he really wanted to get more consumers, he would be pitching the game on Game Tunnel, Octopus Overlords, Madden Mania, Blind Side Blitz, etc. I mean there are plenty of indie gaming/review sites he can go to, but instead decided to add it to this thead. Why not start a new thread?

And why aren't there any screenshots, game logs, etc?

I'm surprised HA has so much time to criticize us in this thread. Doesn't he have four FOF MP leagues to participate in before coming to FOFC?

Thats an interesting theory there. He hasnt really refuted much of what was said here, even the topics he's acknowledged as not being over the top flaming.

I can honestly say that I would give the game a shot, but I'd have to be convinced that the progression of the game will become dramatic & stable. Based on the amount of time it's taken, and the apparent current state of quirks/bugs, I'm not sure if that's even possible.

HA pronounced this thread 'dead' after about 10 pages or so, and several more times after that. it's no surprise he's ready to make the declaration again.

I did post the question a couple of pages back if designing option plays was available in the new Play Design System and if the hashmarks were widened for the 'American amature' league settings, both of which are crucial to recreating college football. Never got responded to, so I'm assuming no.

:D

HA: That's very big of a guy that created a false persona just to fuck around on the Matrix boards.

200 pages, here we come

And Mauraders still has yet to post any screenshots from the "supposed fix statistical engine". Maybe Daivd and him are busy photo-shopping something together.

I've been playing with the lastest release and my stats are pretty damn accurate...........

hahaha johneh, that took me a second

Note the dates in the post:

hxxp://www.truevision3d.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=6377

I'm pulling out my credit card right now.

Hey...waitaminute....Doh!

This thread is like the Twilight Zone. There have got to be some alternate universes thing going on.

Mr. Marauder, please understand and acknowledge what this community of hard-core football simmers (and avid gamers and sports fans in general) is about. There are many here that know or at least follow the game of football. Most of us have, at one time or another, simulated a football game in one form or another. We have even gone beyond that to simulate football careers in one form or another. It is irrelevant if the results are displayed graphically, in a spreadsheet or something in between. We know what realistic results (within an expected variance) should be. This would be true for any sports. That is the foundation of a sports game. Anything else on top of that is gravy, sort of speak and if a game offers a "sandbox mode", fine, but it has to be able to generate realistic results each and every single time or else there would be no confidence in continuing to play or even to attempt to customize it. I am a GM-centric fast-simmer but even at that, I want to have the confidence that beneath the hood, everything makes sense and that in the end, each play, each game, each season and each career is right.

Dude...those stats are the ACTUAL 2006 stats, presumably from a mod.

Look em up here:
hxxp://www.nfl.com/players/playerindex/POS_QB

uhhh SteveMax...I think your sarcasm detector is broken:D

Oops...sorry, still new here. I dont know everybody yet.:o

quite alright. just figured i'd point that out to you fore some less friendly jumped down your throat. i did a double-take on it too for a second TBH.

Funny...the thought did cross my mind that it was a joke...but only because it looked like too many stats being accurately calculated. :D

Easiest is to assume everyone is sarcastic...

Alright, more for a lack of time than anything, I must admit I had not read nor posted in this thread. What a mistake. I thank Marauders for resurrecting it, since I decided what the hell was going on here. Well, all I can say is that little bit about maximum credit cards/negative interest had me laughing so silly that tears almost flowed. Then when the latest stats were shown and Craigsca opened with:

"You can't stop Hirshberg utilizing physics or other universal laws. You can only hope to contain him."

I figuratively peed my pants. And the fact the guy's name was Hirshberg just did it for me.

Anyways, carry on.

I'm literally glad that was figurative ;)

You're safe. I would think most folks around here at least did a double take before they caught it. The Maximum Football crowd, to their credit, figured it out immediately because the first thing they looked at was the graphics.

Okay, that's pretty damn funny.

Yeah yeah...wtf do you know about making a 3D graphic intensive football game? oh..wait...

;)

:D

See, the stats are still way off. J.P. Losman with a QB rating of 85 and a 62.5 completion percentage? Maybe in crazy land.