Todd and DT playing dirty, eh?

it's todd's fault. he gave me 5k and then took it away. so of course i hadta take it back.

oh god, ,now everyone's going to go and delete posts earlier in the thread in their effort to be the TRUE 5K poster.

I think the Dark Jedi used his powers of resurrection for good to restore the timeline of the thread. Let the lesson be learned: Don't mess with the Maximum Football thread.

I was totally being a prick by shitcanning my own post to get 5,000, but at least I didn't just post nonsense to move the thread along....

/reads any random page in the thread

um, nevermind...

/walks away whistling

Quick! Off the top of your head - no cheating! - what is the second-most popular thread in terms of replies in the Off-Topic board?

Hint: There's a connection.

Gmac'ing going on?

god I loved that thread.

The next milestone in our reach is 200 pages and 10,000 posts.

Come on guys, we can do it!

I have been watching this thread for about a year. As I have been reading it, I have noted that most of it is spam; some of it is valid criticism; some of it is invalid criticism; some of it is fair enough, and some of it unfair distortion of the facts.

I have followed Maximum-Football for about four years on it old message boards and the new board at Matrix Games. I have given a lot of feedback to David and the Matrix coordinators, and I joined the beta program right as it was going gold (the first time :)). I have quite a bit of insight about the development of the game.

Some of you may note that I am now a moderator for the Maximum-Football forum on the Matrix Games board. It is a volunteer position that I took on to help keep the board clean and up to date.

I have talked with some of you in PM's and email, so you know that I believe there is plenty of room for both FOF and Maximum-Football in the PC football games market. I also believe in trying to remain positive and fair in posting criticism, but I do not frown on evaluations that examine issues and expose flaws.

If you have any questions about Maximum-Football that I may be able to answer, post them here or on the Matrix Games board, and I'll try to answer them. I may also take an opportunity to dispell some myths presented here or reinforce some valid criticisms.

Now that this thread has reached 100 pages and 5000 posts, it may as well be put to productive use.

Not until you show your limerick skills.

uh, yeah.

oh boy

loooovvvvvvveeeeee it!

*snerks*

Run into any first and halfway in the endzone plays lately?

Let me have a demo and I'll come up with some productive questions.

all been taken care of in version 362.5

now they are working on including an expanded selection of beverages in the beer tent for the next patch

*snickers*

This should be good to get us to 6000.

I know that most answers to you will be complete jokes. So, I'm going to try and jump in early with a serious answer.

Despite what Daivd or folks over at Matrix may believe, this board is ready and willing to embrace new games - particularly from independent developers.

However, we will also be very honest about games and tend to lash out when we are insulted, blocked from giving the legitimate criticism, avoided, etc - which all happened with M-F.

Let's face facts. M-F is far from a complete game that is worth paying what is being charged for it. It produces highly unrealistic stats, has major animation bugs, and many other problems with the engine itself. On top of that you have a developer (and his wife) that are very confrontational if you try to point out these flaws.

The end game seems to be that the folks at M-F and Matrix claim that if you don't buy the game, you're not allowed to critique or criticize anything about it. I'm not throwing money away to be able to say that a game is not good. The various screenshots, stats, etc. posted by folks that are supporting the game are plenty enough to get an understanding that the game is far from being "ready for prime time".

If something has changed in the last month or two since I checked the M-F forums, feel free to try and enlighten me, but I have not seen any evidence that this game is ready to be freeware, let alone something that has a relatively hefty price.

nice work

I actually believe that spelling is corrected by the FOFC-spellcheck.. it's not really Wade's fault :(

If MF's next announcement over here is anything but "here is a demo" or "MF is now freeware" they are wasting their time.

I removed Maximum Football from my computer last night.
Isn't ironic?
Don't ya think?

(BTW, I rigged the play-off set up and Los Angeles won! Go Comets!)

My biggest issues with the game as I understand it are:

1) A sim engine that produces impossible/unrealistic stats
2) Completely different statistical possibilities from playing out games vs. simmed games
3) The odd "draft" which is really just releasing all of your players every year and making you redraft them

Have these issues been fixed/addressed?

Oh, and by the way, Marauders, if the game had delivered on what it set out to do, this community would have flipped out for it. We are dying to have a game like that - one that mixes the roster management and statistical accuracy of FOF with a play editor and graphical representation of the game. That would be football heaven for most of us.

The venom/jokes/etc. that you see in this thread are because of 2 things - disappointment that the game was less than advertised and the developer's attitude in belittling a game and genre that most of us really enjoy.

Marauders: A real question that will either impress us or confirm that the game is still far from playable. What do season stats look like? Can you show us a few examples of team stats for an American pro sixteen game season, both simmed and played out? If those numbers look good I bet a lot of us will take a serious second look at the game.

Agreed. With it almost being a year since this game was released, is there still a valid reason why this game doesn't have a demo. Before, the reason that was given was that he needed to spend more time on the game for the people who had purchased the game and less on the demo. Now if is has been concluded that the game is in a much more stable state, what is the hold up?

I had actually kept up with that game until about 2 months ago when I saw someone post more screenshots of screwy stats and that should not be happening 9 months after a game was released. Especially since these problems occur when you fast sim a game.

On top of that, is it still true that you have to play with certain playbooks in order to get the most realistic stats. In other words, while you can create any play you want with the new PDS, you are still confined to what type of plays you can create because the AI can easily be exploited.

And my last question is just something that has puzzled me since I saw a sub forum created for it, but why is there a multiplayer league. From what I understand, there are no front office functions within the game and you can't rely on fast sim, yet all the leagues I see are trying to emulate other multiplayer text sims. Did the game include basic mulitplayer functionality or people are just trying to make something out of the game which it is not? The reason why I ask is that I can't understand why anyone would want to join a league if all you do is draft players every year and that is it. Since the community were so averse to most of our comments regarding free agency/drafting/financials, I don't understand why people are bothering with trying to do it outside of the game since it wasn't that important to them.

Is there still no way to design option plays for college, and are the hashmarks for both American pro and amature still in the same location on the field?

Your computer just isn't fast enough then, or you do not have the most up-to-date version of Excel installed.

Good golly Miss Molly.

What sort of thought process would have to be behind someone reviving this thread in hopes of helping Daivd Wntier?

This has to be a parody, it just has to be. Either that or his wife has taken on a new screen name.

february fools!

No....it's not a parody....and that is what makes this the best thread ever!

Perhaps a new favorite quote from Daivd. In response to a thread about four punt return TDs in one game he said,

The facts of this thread may distort due to screen resolution issues. Its a known bug that will be fixed when this thread is out of beta.

Oh man. I didn't realize that somebody from MF bumped this thread back up.:eek::D

There was a lad named Galt,
who ask Marauders if he was worth his salt,

The answer Galt got,
was not what he thought,

and that caused Galt's questions to halt.

:p

Maybe it would be easier, if you don't want to be a mod over there anymore, to just ask.

no, the meter is all wrong

It would be nice to have a demo.

David is a one man programming team. The reality of the situation is that he either has to program code for the game or reprogram the code for a demo. It is more productive for him to program code for features that community members have been asking for.

I'll give an example. Recently, adjustable zones have been added to the game. This was a feature on many wish lists, and David worked over the holiday break to add this, sortable stat lists, and a few other things.

He could have created a demo instead, but what good would that have done for people who have already purchased the game? Should he have loyalty to them or to people who ask for a demo? It is a zero sum game, and a choice had to be made.


The game actually started out as a small project that allowed a player to tinker with rules and have fun playing generic football games. It had no career mode, and it wasn't something that pretended to be the end all in computer football gaming. It did have 3D graphics and play creation, and those were highlights of what it could do.

I don't know if any of you were on the old boards, but this project grew from what it once was mostly because of feedback from old FBPo players that wanted it to be more like an advanced version of that game.

Glenn and I asked David to consider having a career mode, and David resisted that because of the time needed to rewrite much of the player and team code and because he didn't want feature creep to cut down on the time needed to make sure the rules and stats were coded correctly.

It wasn't until he joined up with Matrix Games as a distributor that the change was made to include a career mode. The information at the Maximum-football website has always downplayed career mode features, because the game was not originally supposed to be competition for career mode games.

Nevertheless, the game does have career mode, but it will not likely have advanced salary features until Maximum-Football II is released.

On a side note, one must understand that David is not being paid much for programming this title. Any time a developer signs with a distribution company, the distribution company often gets the larger share of any revenue on a title.


Yeah, I read what he said. So what? Programming a 3D physics based game is much more difficult than programming a spreadsheet based text game. It takes more time to code, and it takes more time to debug.

Maximum-Football and Front Office Football are very different games. Emphasis in the former is on 3D football play, while emphasis in the latter is on the GM and front office aspects of football. Neither is better nor worse. David was just saying that he has done spreadsheet and array programming before, and 3D programming has difficulties not presented in the other code.

David Winter has stated many times that no game type is better or worse, and that he doesn't want to get into futile arguments about it, but he certainly doesn't want to read dozens of negative emails about his game either.

David sometimes comes off brash or harsh, and I have been in heated exchanges with him on the boards and in emails, but he works hard to add game features that the community wants. He has little time to regard negative and unconstructive posts and emails.

David has received some pretty bad emails and even death threats to him and his family. Some of you think this is a funny game, but it is serious.

I am no apologist for David, and one can see that in my posts on the public boards, but I expect logical and constructive criticism, and I have stated so. I suspect David does as well, and I suspect most of you would too if you were is his position.

No; at this point it is ESSENTIAL to have a demo.


So? It doesn't make a difference to my wallet how much work goes into something. It only matters what the quality is.

death threats? death threats?

anyone that sends anyone death threats over a computer game needs a serious reality check

So wait...your telling me that any of these indies that are one man development teams have risen above and beyond pure mortal powers and become TITANS of programming?

Get real, it's not hard to crank out a demo, this is a piss poor excuse for someone who doesn't want to, pure and simple.

Honestly, don't pee on our leg and tell us it's raining!

The FOF 6.0d bug thread has 80 posts. How long has FOF been out?

I often see bugs listed in this thread that were add on bugs from a specific release build. Those type of things sneak into the code - especially because the beta guys, myself included, complain and whine about little things that we want better. Most of the bugs are fixed before they are even listed as bugs on the public board.

Does that mean the code is clean and straight? No ... the game should have features locked down so that the public release is clean. That stated, leagues have been running the game, even with the old playbooks, and I would have to say that the code is pretty solid right now.

Of course, that could change again as features are added. That is why the game will always be in some sort of beta, as is FOF and Madden.


Well, not for the Chicago Bears. :)

Nevertheless, that has long since changed, as the beta team helped find what the problem was.

Marauders:

I appreciate you trying to come into the Lion's Den to try to kickstart interest in David's game.

But you've got a snowball's chance in hell of convincing any one to listen.

There's been too many absolutely STUPID things, in game and from the mouth of the developer, to have any chance in rehabilitating the image of either the developer or the game.

The Game Has not, does not and almost certainly WILL not play an accurate game of football, to the standards that are expected. You might as well call it Calvinball.

A Draft mode that isn't.
A Playoffs Mode that isn't.
The underlying game is broken. No matter how much you gussy it up, you can't get away from that fact. (the framerate affecting passing completion. The horrible stats from simming).

"But.. But.. But.. that's in the past", you and David exclaim. "If you buy it now.. it's really much better"

sorry... if we bought it now, we'd be the biggest fools on God's Green Earth. There's just too much evidence against it.

Really, you have to stop with the excuses. How many independent 3D games am I going to have to show you that has a demo and didn't take the length of time that this game took that currently have demos?



So in one hand you are extending an olive branch talking about how you want to remain positive and stay away from criticism that is not constructive, yet you talk about how it is much more difficult to program a 3D game as comparted to a spreadsheet.

That's interesting, because if it were all that easy to create realistic stats and have a financial system in place, it would have already been perfected by people who have teams of people programming sports games. Not to say that Front Office Football is the most perfect, but it is way more closer than most football games out there and the financial aspect is deeper than most as well. It still amazes me that people downplay the difficultly of coming up with a realistic AI.

I think you have the idea wrong. Creating a 3D game with realistic physics is actually the easier part of programming. The difficulty comes when trying to create a realistic AI.

So while FOF has basic graphics and a simple interface, the AI is very advanced and that is why people keep buying the game. Graphics and usability are ways to enhance a game, but if the AI is weak, you won't find repeat customers.

First of all, that is pretty sick if there were actually death threats, but I really hope you are not insinuating it is someone here from this message board just because of this thread. Because the fact that you say "Some of you think this is a funny game..." didn't sit too well with me since anyone could have been sending the threats (from actual buyers of the game, to just stupid griefers).

Re: demo


Cronin, maybe I'm old school, but I do not believe this is a valid statement. If you need to have a demo, then that is your choice of evaluation methods prior to making a purchase.


MG, no, I stated there are opportunity costs of doing so.


Really, what should David had not worked on to give you a demo?

It isn't just doing the demo, but it is debugging the demo and making sure that the code cannot be used to create a pirated game with patches.


Why, because you say so? I suspect you have little authority in this area.

If you were in the trenches, you'd have a better perspective of what the gameplan is.

Because we're not stupid enough to pay $50 sight unseen for a game we have had reports of more bugs then working software?

If the game plan is to be a pariah of the game industry, a cautionary example of what NOT to do with a software release? MF is executing that gameplan to perfection.

It might be simpler to retreat at this point, Marauders.. you've done your best sales job.

We're not buying.

A piece of crap with a pretty dress on and lipstick is still a piece of crap.

DT, I agree. While people were emailing me about how rude David was, they had no idea what kind of emails David had been getting.

I tried to keep emails positive and constructive, but it was really too late to change many attitudes.

Why is there all this fear in a demo? You are really confusing me. On one hand, you are saying that David is listening to the customers who have purchased the game by adding a number of features that weren't in the game. But on the other hand, you don't believe he should listen to any of the potential customers who are hesistant in buying the game. That seems to be a poor way to handle business.

I thought the whole point of why you came here was to attract new customers and by getting feedback.

Honestly look before you leap.....

For doing a Demo, yea sure, Matrix might make it hard on him to turn features on or off, but most of US (yes, I am an Indie Developer) have the ability to create a demo pretty fast and without detraction from our game development, most of the time, because we lock it out after X amount of days, a season or such. For David to do this, would not be to hard, if it is a matter of not knowing how to do it, fine then by all means state as such.

Without a Demo, and reading ANY board post at Matrix that show the inconsistincies, you are not going to get a ton of sales. A lot of us like to ensure the game is what we are looking for, we go the demo route, then purchase the game.

Granted, I am not in David's trenches, but truly, to sit here and espouse as to why there is no demo with dribble such as this, honestly it reeks.

For what it's worth, not everyone is hung up on a demo with this or any game. I wouldn't want the overall impression to be that a demo is the single issue here.

This game, with its year after year of teasing about its forthcoming release, with the rather laughable excuses for each broken promise, simply got things off on the wrong foot. Once the product was nearing and then actually released, the continuous stream of indications that the game produced near-complete garbage in a lot of areas that football sim gamers are actually interested in furthered the bad impression. The developer's own, and proxied, attacks on the critic community, added some fuel to the fire. The continued lack of any real evidence that the game even now really "gets it" just seals the deal for me, and many of us, I'm sure. This is unfortunately just going to go down as a product that never really delivered on even a fair fraction of the things that it promised, in a way that's acceptable to the core football simming community.

While I'm not that sensitive to money issues, as far as the apologist act goes, I really get tired of the whole "he's just a one man show" routine, too. It's been said time and time again in this thread and elsewhere... once you decide to charge real money for the game, you lose absolutely all claim to sympathy over who you are, what else you do in life, or anything else. Now you are in commerce, and your objective is to convince me that your game is worth the money you are asking for it. So far, no sale. And no groveling for sympathy based on special circumstances or contrasts with the circumstances of big software companies alters that at all.

And just in case that was too tame... let's call it as we see it. When the move from the features list to the actual game is going to prove a grave disappointment to the vast majority of potential buyers, it quickly becomes in one's best financial interests to decide against a free demo.

So, in an odd way, I don't really blame Daivd for not offering a demo. It doesn't matter to me much at all, I can see the game for what it is from here, at no cost. And based on what we can see of the game itself (as opposed to the impressive feature list and those screen shots that didn't inadvertently reveal embarassments about the game) I think I'd do the same thing, were I in his shoes.

My point is that asking anybody who has read this thread to buy this game (or any other product from this developer) without a demo is just absurd.

Some do have demos, and some don't. I could show you games that have great demos but the game is crap. What does that prove?

As I stated, having a demo would be nice, but there have been other priorities.


It is more difficult. Why is that hard to understand? If doing the 3D gameplay was easy, FOF would have featured it long ago.


I didn't say it was easy. I said it was easier.


Monday Night Football, Football Strategy, and Stat-O-Matic Football did a pretty good job, but they didn't have to worry about physics and graphics either.


I agree, the AI is very important. I certainly don't downplay it.

My computer league used Professional Football Simulation, which was a game developed to test real world coaching plays on a UNIX mainframe that was ported to the Amiga. PFS has a better AI than any computer football game I have seen to date. It did have graphics, but they were not animated more than squares on a screen.

AI is very important, but is FOF really AI or is an approximation of an AI? Does the game keep track of where the players are on the field in real time. Does it check the actual flight of the ball? Are vector forces and physics taken into account?


The greater difficulty comes what creating a 3D game with a realistic AI.


I agree on both points.

I have considered FOF for an online league because of this.

Alas, my home league must have graphics and on-field play.


Did I say any of you sent the threats? No I did not, so why did you assume it was so?

I said some of you believe this whole thing is a game. People have nothing vested in it but complain like they do. My point was that there is much more to this than a rivalry between one game and another, and that sometime people come off as harsh because there are other variables in play.

You seem to be missing the point. No one disagrees that producing a 3d football game is much more difficult than producing the kind of text sim that we here are all familiar with and fond of. Now one might say that a good developer would have realized the size of the task he was attempting and set more realistic goals, but that's beside the point.

The crucial point is that David Winters and Maximum Football are a laughable attempt at producing a game. 3d or otherwise. The only thing Maximum Football simulates is a piss-poor developer with a persecution complex trying to fleece some gullible gamers. The idea that we should cut MF some slack because it's "hard" is like excusing robbery because "unemployment is up."

Until such time as Maximum Football can be shown to actually provide, you know, a game, it's ludicrous to expect anyone here to shell out a dime for it. From what I've seen, Maximum Football is so bad I wouldn't waste the time to download a demo. Fortunately, many here have a higher tolerance for crap, and would probably try out a demo. Then again, since you have no interest in providing one, that point is moot.

I for one, do think this is a funny game. Time after time Matrix representatives have attempted to mollify the crowd here, and time after time they've failed because they haven't addressed the core problem: the product is of terrible quality. No amount of forum posting is going to change that. If you expect this board to take Maximum Football seriously, David needs to get the product to the point where it produces realistic results. Period. Get that done, get a demo done, and you'll have the beginnings of a fan-base and customer-base here. Keep blowing smoke up our asses, and we'll keep laughing at you, because you are just another Iraqi Information Minister to us.

Just in case things aren't clear Marauders:

Here are some bugs I've taken from the Beta Forum within the past month:

Penalties are not functioning properly when you decline a penalty. This is with 1.3.139. My defense stops the opposing team on 3rd down. There is a penalty on the offense. I can either accept the penalty and make it 3rd & 18 or I can decline the penalty and it is 4th & 8 and they have to punt. I declined the penalty and the offense is now at 3rd & 8. Next play another penalty on the offense. I again decline the penalty and instead of it being 4th down, it is again 3rd down.

I was reading the game log from a game in our online league, and I noticed that one of the entries had the opponents QB throwing a TD to a WR that is on my team.

followed by

I've encountered the same bug in the CFL leagues I'm running, but the QB's passes are "Intended for" a DB on the other team when Quick-Simming.

I have also never seen a league game that had the weather be displayed as [anything other than] 'indoor 68 degrees', and I don't use any custom stadiums.

Still have an occasional problem where players get "stuck" on each other and end up just running in place forever. I've noticed that it usually happens after a TD when the player that scores tries to run to the center of the endzone . If his path is blocked by other players (who remain motionless during this animation) then he will just run in place forever.

Marauders.. this is from the last month. This is how many months after the scheduled release date? This is how many months after the FINAL Release?

Brillig,

Do you own Maximum-Football? Have you played it recently? What authority are on this are you? What makes your post credible in any way?

If I came into the FOF forum and based the game on the bug reports, I'd think it is incomplete and bug ridden.

While I agree that Maximum-Football was released prematurely, and that is one reason I joined beta, the game has come a long way.

I do not work for Wintervalley Software, and I do not work for Matrix Games. I did not post here to bash FOF, which I believe is a very good game, and I did not come here to try to get you to purchase the game. I came here to clear up some misconceptions about what is going on with Maximum-Football and what is not.

That is why this thread was created in the first place, after all.

the misconceptions are yours, Marauders. The game is still in beta, as best as I can tell.

This was a follow on bug. You act like this was there from the start. I had not seen it until a recent build, and David squashed it quickly.

Should I assume all of the bugs at the release of FOF 2007 were there throughout FOF 2006? Should I assume the bugs in Madden 2007 were bugs from Madden 2001 and onward? Obviously not.

As I stated above, Maximum-Football should be locked down for an end build and just tested for those features. Although it is close to that, David has been adding many features that the community has been asking for. As far as I know, a full lockdown will be coming soon, and that should eliminate follow on bugs, so all standing features can be tested and any small remaining issues can be addressed.

As I stated above, this game was not supposed to be the end all of football games. It was supposed to allow different rulesets to be played on a 3D field for fun. It wasn't even supposed to have career mode or many other features that have been added. It evolved into larger game because David listened to the community. Some of you guys make it sound like listening to the community and taking the time to add features is a bad thing.

No, we're making it sound like dressing up a turd still leaves a turd.. just in fancy clothes.

Has the post release beta testing been completed? That was still going on the last time I checked a couple months ago.

edit: Nevermind...I just read Marauders post again and realize they are still working on the feature list and haven't actually entered beta yet.

FOFC = Fire
Marauders = Grease

Marauders,

You seem incapable of being able to separate the number of bugs versus the severity of bugs. Yes, there are still bugs out there if FOF2K7. I would challenge you to compare the severity of the bugs in FOF2K7 two months after release to the severity of the bugs in M-F one year after the release. That in and of itself is what drives this community away from the M-F game.

As for your other comment about FOF keeping track of players in space, I can't say for certain, but I believe that is done with the new version, as Jim has alluded to implementing a 2-D overhead display of plays in action in a future version.

Marauders: Since there is no demo and as far as I can tell no discussion of stats at Matrix, can you please post season stats so we can see how realistic things are at this point?

I'm quoting cartman because he's hitting on the main thing I wanted to point out.

Marauders is pointing to 80 posts in an FOF Bug thread. A thread for a game that I'm confidant has a LOT more customers than M-F, but even if you disregard that, certainly on a forum that has a LOT more posters, a LOT LOT more than the M-F forum does.

So, these 80 posts you have 33 in the last month.

So, when you actually read them, very few of the actual posts are new bugs. They're discussion about a bug, etc.

Ok.. so let's look at the bugs... they're all VERY minor. You'll see that the latest patch was within about a month or so of release and we're at the point where the bugs existing are so minor that must of us never see them.

However, with M-F you have many bugs that effect the very fundamentals of gameply. Things that it is impossible not to see if you buy the game and play. Things that make the game unplayable if you want a realistic game - and this is nearly a year after release.

I'm sorry, do not come in here trying to compare the bug situation for FOF to the bug situation for M-F, they are just completely in different universes.


In this whole discussion, I've noticed you've not really tried to claim that the game produces realistic states or delivers what it claims it is. That is very telling to me. That is the first thing several of us asked you to do - show us that it is not the buggy, unrealistic game that we know it to be and you have made no attempts.


And also, nice to see you went to this tried and true tactic that I mentioned in my first post that is a load of crap from the M-F folks:


So again, we have to throw our hard earned money on a load of crap to call it a load of crap? Our basis comes from everything that M-F supporters have posted on their board. Unrealistic stats, crazy game-killing bugs, etc. This whole concept that you have to buy it in order to be able to critcize is just a load.

You know, you can make a statement like this in an attempt to defend yourself, but then it just makes it even less likely that anyone would take you serious.

I'm going to paraphrase one of my all-time favorite quotes to explain my feelings about the quality of MF:

Treating Maximum Football as if it were a playable computer game is something like being pelted with random tornado ejecta and calling it an especially resource-intensive form of massage.

I would be happy to compare the bugs in the demo, which I have installed, of FOF 2K7 with the bugs in a demo of MF.

Perfectly sane and intelligent people choose to back seemingly strange things all the time for a myriad of reasons. The more their choice is criticized or deconstructed, the more they are likely to dig their heels in. It's human nature.

Best of luck with Maximum Football. I truly hope that all the volunteer time you invest in the game brings you everything you are hoping for and none of the abject frustration.

I prefer drunk Subby.

The second you charge $50 for a game no further excuses can be made about it being put out by 1 developer and it being hard to code.

You're right, this game does not need a demo. Since you agreed that the game was released too early, I don't understand why you can't see a point for this game to have a demo.

You are trying to convince me that the game is in a more stable state and all most of us are saying is to show us a demo since we don't want to purchase it without at least seeing if what you say is true.

If this game had glamorous reviews and by word of mouth people were saying good things about the game, I wouldn't be asking for a demo.


Ok, my point wasn't saying that text representation is easier than 3D modeling/collision detection/physics. What I was saying is that creating a realistic AI is harder than both. And that is what most people perceive to be the weakness of the game as well as the way it creates stats. That is why I didn't understand why more focus wasn't put on that instead of creating a new PDS. A new PDS won't improve the game since you can still easily exploit the computer opponent.



Ummmm....what the heck is an appoximation of an AI? There is no such thing. This is what I am talking about when I am speaking about AI. Take any game, whether it is turn based and real time, and with the options and features available in the game, I am going to make my decisions/moves.

A well programmed AI is going to counter your moves as close as it can to a human opponent. Ball flight, physics and vector forces are not elements of an AI at all. An AI is only decision maker.

Otherwise what you are saying is that computer chess or any turn based game is just an "appoximation of an AI".



Definitely agree with this, but much more of the difficulty comes with the AI. So if the focus is only on graphics/physics, you are doing the most easiest part of the game.



That's nice and all, but how do you play an online league with this game. You can't actaully play this game against another player online. So you are basically left with a commisioner who is playing out CPU vs. CPU games that no one else can watch. They just wait for the results as if it were a text based game. So how does graphics and on the field play help you for an online league?

So what kind of league are you running? Am I wrong in how I am speaking about running one?

I am drunk. I thought it was obvious.

You obviously have learned nothing from reading this thread.

from a page back, I'm quoting the Warlord of Coffee for truth...

FM

I just wanted to emphasise this again. If David was charging $20 or something, I might feel differently. But as soon as you put yourself on an even price plane with every other game out there, you are held to the same standards.

And I can't speak to how much money he gets per purchase, but I bet it's more than you think it is.

LOL.....does this thread seriously have 102 pages of posts about a game that's not even worthy of purchase?

By way of comparison, Markus charged $20 for ITP, which I bought. He clearly priced it taking into account the status of the game, and although many people ultimately didn't love it or think too highly of it, I don't recall a backlash about having paid too much for it. That's not the case when you charge regular price (and more than the typical text sim, I might add) for a game that not only doesn't meet expectations, but so clearly falls flat on its face.

Of course, by way of comparison, if ITP was reasonably priced at $20, then Daivd owes every person who has heard of MF $23.85.

Just as a side comment, I'd love to see an ITP2. :D

This game intrigues me. Tell me more.

Try the demo.

Amazing...this thread has it all.

First, I believe Jim has already pretty much destroyed any argument you can make *against* releasing a demo. It's earlier in the thread if you'd like the exact quote. At this point, refusing to release a demo speaks to the (total lack of) confidence the creator has in his product. Yes, it is essential in this day and age to have a demo of a sports-sim, "3D" or not. You simply cannot make an argument otherwise. I'd like to see you try, actually.

What should Daivd not worked on? Um....everything? Don't you think he'd get better, more valuable positive feedback on the game engine (and everything else) if the pool of beta-testers included more people than the current customer base of fanboys and uniform designers?

And I suspect "being in the trenches" doesn't mean being a part-time moderator of a message board. I've never heard The Dark Jedi claim he was in the trenches, so I can't imagine you even know what a trench looks like.

But thanks for brining this thread back to life - it's the best legacy M-F will ever have if you think about it.

I should also point out that Gary just released his pro basketball game with a demo from day 1.

Correct me if I'm wrong Sandy, but I don't believe teleportation is included in Gary's game. Maybe if he spent less time on the demo we could have had that feature.

Marauders,

I think you are missing some of the point here, or purposely ignoring it. I dont think you are a disengenuous person just based on posts here & when I check in occassionally on the Matrix boards, so I tend to think maybe you arent grasping people's valid reservations about the game.

By not releasing a demo, DW continues to prove to would-be customers that his game, which has been ripped for many reasons, (some invalid, but most extremely valid) is not a reasonably realistic representation of football. By contrast, developers with a finished product do everything in their power to motivate & advertise to would-be customers to purchase their product by giving them a sample of it, not simply tell them "if you havent purchased the game, you cant judge it" nonsense. Developers who are trying to finance a beta until it is working properly do not release demos because it showcases the flaws of their game. It is actually that simple, and that is the perception reasonable people come to when researching the game. I too have enough money to lose on it, if I really hate it, but the apparent lack of intended features working properly & lack of expansive career mode make it an obvious choice that it would not suit me.

That may not matter to DW...but it also shouldnt surprise him, Matrix, or you, that there just isnt a huge market for "Madden-Lite" w/ CFL & Arena basic functions thrown on...oh & for the same or more money than Madden costs?? Come on...seriously.

pwned

Good points. And in addition, to argue that 9 months later he has so many bugs/issues to work out that he can't make time for a demo is very telling also.

Maybe he was pregnant.

Nothing better than a release day porking.

Yep...thats where I was going with it. If you are forced to choose between fixing bugs & releasing a demo 9 months after release...then you clearly do not have a product ready to sell for $50...maybe even at any price.

If it were my product & I wanted to grow my audience...at a minimum, I'd offer at least a 50% discount to any future MF-2 to anybody who purchased the original. Odds are there wont be one anyway, so I guess it wouldnt matter.

Seems we're nearing the point of two new releases in the Maximum line.

Message last edited 2/16/2006 by Marauders


I bet the imminent release of Maximum Hockey played a part in the death of EHM.

:D

Wow. Good find. I can't believe a man who took 1,000 years to develop his first half-baked game thought he could pump out too more in the next year. And what exactly the "Maximum mark?" Is it the beer tent or teleportation?

Customizable Canadian regional accents and the patented "HoserCam" view.

We are comparing apples and oranges.
I think the whole problem is in expectations.

Daivd built himself a toy. Matrix realized nobody wanted a football toy and forced him to build a game around it (which he had/has no interest in doing.)

We sit here and point out all the problems with the football game, you counter with all the problems he has fixed with his football toy.
Granted the "toy" needs to work for the game to be played.
It is the game aspect that interests most here.

I'm thinking Extreme Lacrosse provides better abbreviation opportunitites. But candidly, it's tough to beat plain ol' M-F.

I think that is a nice analogy to use. If he had not titled the word "Football" in the game...not used one ball...and allowed players a robust set of AI tools to develop their own mini-games, sports, outcomes, etc. it would be a more understandable outcome to not have realistic "Football" results if one wanted to try & model a "game" of football, rugby, soccer, or whatever it is they might use it for. As it is...it just tries & "seems" to fail at modelling a "game" of football, with no real advanced features to justify it's price or outstanding issues.

LOL!

The irony being, of course, that given MF's history, the production/release schedule for Daivd's Lacrosse game would likely be best described as "constipated."

It's shocking how little interest there is in stats. The Matrix forums have almost no discussion of stats and certainly nothing serious. Look as this customer survey, nothing regarding stats.

http://www.surveymonkey.com/s.asp?u=660163167264

It's not that Daivd has tried and failed to produce anything close to realistic numbers, it's clear that nobody involved cares about the accuracy of results.

As someone who does own the game (but admittedly hasn't played it in months and hasn't played it with the current patches), I can tell you that it really wasn't the bugs that bothered me. Sure, it was frustrating to have totally unrealistic statistics (you know, quarterbacks being sacked for hundred yard losses, but throwing for 200 yard touchdown passes, that type stuff), but the design decisions of the game were what broke the deal for me.

I like leagues. I like simulating careers. I like building teams. For various reasons, you couldn't (I'm avoiding using can't, since I haven't played the latest versions) do that with M-F. You had 40+ round drafts each season, undistinguishable players, in terms of ratings and abilities, no career tracking, and a very poor scheduling function. I don't consider those bugs. It was a poorly designed league and career system, when, I think, what the game really was (maybe is) is a single game coaching simulation.

I finally found something about stats using the latest build.