Repeated and bolded.

When I'm 80 and on my death bed, I have a feeling that A/C (or the lack thereof) won't really be one of my chief concerns.

Necessary to survive, no

Necessary to be a functional part of society, yes.

Around here if you didnt have A/C you woudnt have a minimum wage job long, I dont know how to make it more clear than that.

last year our A/C went out while I was out of town, called a friend (he owns an HVAC company)who couldnt get by until the evening to look at or fix it. With all the windows open and fans a blowing it was 85+ in our house when he arrived. Try being a woman and trying to put on makeup (without sweating it off) or a guy and not sweating through you clothes in those temps. I dont know maybe I sweat more than you, and I dont mind it when I am outside working, and I can get away with it in my line of work, but if I had to walk into McDonalds or Wal Mart and had sweat stains from my underarms to my beltline on the sides (yes even using anti perspirent) at 10AM I would probably be fired or at the least never move up because of my hygiene.



just curious for the no A/C where do you live and what is an average summer temp/humidity?

Don't get me wrong, I'm not criticizing anybody for having AC even if they can't afford it. I'm not one to comment on people's spending habits. I'm just a freak of nature that considers 70 degrees to be a bit chilly.

I let my roommate put AC in his room and don't charge him for the extra electric. I have an old AC unit sitting out in the barn if I wanted to put it in, I just simply don't see the need. For others its a quality of life issue, which I can understand. If you're going to be miserable because you haven't got much money, I'd understand being miserable but at least not sweating your ass off 100% of the time.

Now, when I see poor people smoking Camel Lights at over $8.00/pack when a pack of Basic Lights costs $5.75........

how about this (fixed)? whatever they're smoking it's costing too much.

True, but by that time I bet your government appointed death assistant will have it installed for you anyway.

I don't know if I missed it, but I'm still curious what people think would be an appropriate minimum wage, which I guess has to be enough to cover (regardless of a person's debt situation, I suppose):

-AC
-Cable and Internet
-Nice clothes for job interviews
-Housing without any roomates

I'm not criticizing anyone for doing whatever the hell they want with their own money. I just find ridiculous that people think that the minimum acceptable wage in this country needs to cover all of those things, or that our government could even support that without bringing down what's left of the middle class to the level of the rest of the poor.

I gave the Vermont statistics on what they've found to be a livable wage, based on being able to afford health care and housing and such.

But frankly,t he original thrust of this thread was suggesting that it was possible to survive at minimum wage and people shouldn't complain about how impossible it is. I think the discussion now is pointing out that living at minimum wage creates real difficulties. it doesn't mean no one should have difficulties or that minimum wage should fix these problems, but it means let's not pretend that the only problem with people on minimum wage is that they whine.

Well, now we're muddling assistance and minimum wage again. I do think that anyone in this country who works 40 hours a week should be able to afford a reasonable version of all of that stuff, and I understand that may be completely unrealistic, but I don't think it's ridiculous. Now, that doesn't necessarily mean that I think people who don't have that stuff should necessarily have the bill footed by the government.

Lastly, if the poor had most of the luxuries and benefits of the middle class, then wouldn't bringing the middle class down to that level of the poor, just be bringing the middle class down to the level of the middle class? It's called communism, catch the red fever, baby!

Bingo. As people have repeatedly shown RainMaker to be an idiot with his original statement, he and others have tried to shift the argument.


I also notice that, I believe, almost everyone criticizing A/C being very important(outside of Cam) are from the north.

I don't think anyone would disagree that there's stuff you can't get if you make minimum wage. That's not much of a discussion.

Nobody says it's not important, and I don't think anyone's criticizing anyone for having it. It's just not a necessity. It's not a right. You don't need it to live. It's a luxury.

But is that the mimimum wage that you think the federal government should impose? $15-$16?

The implication seems to be that if the minimum wage isn't "liveable", it should be higher. Is that what people are saying?

I'll just add this as I think my points about AC may be slightly out of context (from my own doing).

While I don't think people can function effectively in the society we've built without certain items that were once considered by ALL to be luxury items...I will say that I dont believe it is taxpayer responsibility to fund it (in most cases...disabled 90 yr old grandma caveat notwithstanding).

So to me, minimum wage may need to be adjusted for inflation periodically as it is today(though likely needs to be more localized due to dramatic differences between differring metro areas), but in general it does what it is intended to do. I don't think minimum wage should be for somebody to work for 20 years and still make. It is intended as a minimum pay for (presumably) minimum skill set. If your skill set does not make you more marketable after a couple of years of min wage work, then you likely need to continue roommating and sharing bills and the like until you do.

No one is criticizing people for having A/C. People are saying it's not a necessity. None of us would die this Summer if we didn't have A/C. We wouldn't be comfortable and we may have a few sleepless nights, but by in large we'd manage to survive.

This notion that we can't survive as human beings without cold air being pumped through our homes all Summer is ludicrous. People everywhere manage to get by just fine without it. For those who seem to believe it's an absolute necessity, have you ever lived in a place that didn't have A/C? It can suck but it's not the end of the fucking world. Grab a few cheap fans at Wal-Mart and aim them on you.

The thread was "Could you Live on Minimum Wage?". Not "Would your life suck?" or "Would it be comfortable?". That if you were given a minimum wage now and told your life depended on living off of it, could you find a way to do it? Do you honestly feel there is no way in hell you could possibly do it?

If we were talking about something that wasn't physically addictive I'd tend to agree. Smoking tends to be one of the few enjoyments many poor people have.

How many other things would that be true for? You wouldn't die if you didn't wash your clothes. You wouldn't die without electricity.


I have lived without AC and I can tell you that the extra electricity you'll be paying for those fans will outweight any cost effectiveness of living without AC.


Well, then this is a stupid thread. I mean, I could live in my car. I even know where I could park and no one would notice. I'd save a ton of money. But I wouldn't consider that living.

There are a ton of things, like AC, that being without wouldn't necessarily kill you. That doesn't make them frivolous expenses.

My problem with that is I think it fucks over the middle class guy who worked harder to get where he's at. Lets say that minimum wage is increased to a level so that people can get everything you mentioned. Doesn't that just mean lower wages for the workers higher up? Is it fair to lower the wages of the guy who got his Masters in Accounting and worked long hours learning his craft so that the guy who dropped out of high school and mops floors can live on his own with central air, 400 channels, and a 10 meg internet connection?

I do think there is something to be said about motivating people to better themselves so that they can get those things.

Huh? This doesn't make any sense at all. A minimum wage increase doesn't lower wages of the middle class. It eventually increases wages across the board, because now you have to pay more to get good workers.

I think it would be really tough to live in today's society without electricity and running water. I consider those necessities to make it in today's society. I don't consider my air conditioner essential to my daily life. It is a luxury I covet, but I could certainly maintain my job and life functions without it.

You are way off. A central air unit uses 3500 watts an hour. A window A/C unit uses just under 1000 an hour. A fan is under 100 at its highest speed. So unless you plan on having over 10 high powered fans running in the room at the same time, you're saving a lot of money by not having an A/C.

No one is saying they are frivolous. Just saying if money is real tight, it's something you can live without. Comparing an air conditioner to electricity, running water, and a roof over your head seems a bit far fetched.

It means relatively lower wages for the middle class. If minimum wage is $16 tomorrow, the first thing that happens is the unemployment rate goes to 20% or higher. The service industry - which is a huge part of our economy - would be ravaged. Middle class salaries wouldn't increase, jobs would be so precious that employers could offer the vast majority of the workforce the minimum wage and everyone would jump at it. Ditch Diggers, fast food workers, administrative professionals, insurance adjusters, and public service attorneys, entry level workers (pretty much in any field that makes under $50k today) would all make the same thing. There would be competition for the better minimum wage jobs because they might be more pleasant, but there'd be no reason for employers to pay more than minimum wage with so many unemployed.

Then of course the government has to foot the bill for the massive unemployed, and that means heavy taxes on the new middle class (which used to be the upper-middle class), and the upper middle class (which used to be the rich). Everyone's poorer, and everything's more equal.

Or the least important people to the workforce could just live without AC and internet and have to have roomates....

When a business is forced to increase their expenses for lower wage workers, the difference has to be made up somewhere else. Just because you raise minimum wage doesn't mean a company magically comes across more money to pay all their employees. It's either going to come from cuts in other places or through higher prices for consumers.

You're the one who used the "live without" criteria. I'm simply pointing out that many other things would also fit under that.

$16 is a bit ridiculous and I'm certainly not suggesting that. But I think it should be more than it is now.

Clinton increased minimum wage from 4.25 to 5.15 from 96-97 and the unemployment rate continued to drop, from 5.4 in 96 to 4.0 in 2000. It didn't get back to the 1996 level until 2002.

Of course, the benefit to employers is that people now have more money to spend on those "frivolous" items.

Most states have higher rates. I personally believe it should be a state or local issue instead of a federal one. The cost of living between areas in this country differs a lot.

And I should add I'm certainly amused that $16/hour is apparently how much it costs to live by yourself, with AC, cable, and nice clothes. Especially since I make less than that.

I'm curious as to the distinction. What makes electricity/running water necessities but not A/C? What's the thread that makes one a necessity and the other a luxury?

SI

That is a slope that one might describe as very long, and very slippery. I guess it's a good thing the minimum wage has never been raised, huh?

If I got laid off tomorrow, I would be able to collect $1200 a month in unemployment. Someone who is making minimum wage at 40 hours would pull in $1160.

I certainly think minimum wage should be more than people can make on unemployment.

I never said the mnimum wage should never be raised, I've been asking people what they think it should be, the only one that answered cited a Vermont study that said that the minimum liveable wage for a single person without kids should be $15-$16 (which is about the starting salarly for entry level criminal prosecutor/public defender jobs in most states), so that's the number I'm responding to.

Any meaningful increase isn't practical right now. It might be in the future. Have the gradual minmum wage increases over the last few decades increased our overall standard of living? Poor people are still poor, last I checked.

Newman: Okay, you're all set? You got your story?

Kramer: No.

Newman: When the cop stopped me, I told him that I was rushing home because my friend was about to commit suicide.

Kramer: Uhm...

Newman: Now, you're that firend. Now, all we need is a reason why you were going to commit suicide.

[Pause; they're thinking]

Kramer: I never had an air conditioner.

Newman: No! That's no reason to kill yourself!

Kramer: Why? It gets hot at night, you can't sleep. You ever tried to sleep in a really hot room?

Newman: Every night I sleep in a really hot room, I don't want to kill myself.

Kramer: Well, I slept in really hot rooms and I wanted to kill myself.

Anecdotes are hilarious.

Are you seriously claiming that there aren't 75+ year olds in Iraq without AC? That's ridiculous. They're just not conditioned to need it like people in the U.S. And it's ridiculous to claim that it's a necessity for people living in the south -- I have plenty of relatives in India who lived to their 80s and 90s without air conditioning, and it's insanely hotter there than the south.

My understanding is that this was the basis of this entire discussion. Poor people these days are flush with air-conditioning, cell-phones, and cable TV, don't you know?

I guess everyone has their own opinion of necessity. I don't think A/C falls anywhere near that level but to each their own. I don't see humanitarian missions where we help setup air conditioners in 3rd World Countries.

The governments approach to poverty is to make it less miserable. That's it. And we are fine with this. For one, it passes the buck. We are no longer responsible for our poor neighbor if we know the government is "helping" with our money to boot. It also gives us the added benefit of judging without guilt.



I am amazed how you ignore opportunity. Why do you think the high school drop out wanted to be a floor mopper? Why is it so impossible for the grad student to realize the opportunities given to them did not necessarily apply to the drop out? (i'm not talking race here. not having parents who have the time, income and skills to nurture, teach and role model one's first 5 years is maybe the most important thing).

Do you really think it's the governments job to motivate people? How have they motivated you compared to say your family, friends and mentors? Do you think the grad student could be more effective than the government in motivating the mopper? Or better yet, motivating the mopper's kids?

One of my students once said that the greatest opportunity his upper class, educated family gives him is the opportunity to be lazy knowing there is always a safety net and a plan B.

Not how I phrased the question at all, tho. What makes electricity and running water necessities? I can see water as it's required to live on a basic biological level but even running water in the US is abundantly available for drinking purposes from water fountains and public showers, at least in some parts of the country.

So, again, my question is basically what makes electricity and individual running water a necessity more than what makes A/C one?

SI

Electricity allows people to light their homes at night, cook food, warm water, and power appliances that allow an individual to function in our society. Water is used for hygiene, health, and keeping your home clean.

Are you really trying to debate whether A/C is more important than electricity and running water?

Maybe a better phrasing would be "de-motivating". By handing out things to people, government de-motivates them. It's not the job of government to motivate people, but their actions do have an impact on how people act.

I find this humorous, but I am easily amused.

Electricity also powers 52 inch plasma TVs, but I don't think they are a necessity that the government has to factor into minimum wage.

Not in the least. What I'm trying to determine is how one is a necessity when the other isn't. Again, by the logic of "you can live without it", you can live without electricity. So why are either a necessity? I'm just trying to figure out what logic draws the line where.

SI

It will also increase the costs of things that those are trying to get (internet, heat, ect.).

My A/C was broken for a month. Within 3 days it was over 95 degrees in the house. I would sit in a kitchen chair underneath a fan and be dripping in sweat in 5 minutes. The heat index was around 108 for a week and it was a relief stepping outside. I took showers with no hot water, and as soon as I turned the water off I was hot. This was in southern Illinois, so I can't imagine what living without A/C would be like in the deep south. Our landlord gave us a month of free rent after she walked into the house for 5 minutes to see why we were calling everyday.

Totally. We could spend all day naming appliances less potentially necessary to survival than an air conditioner, and wouldn't that be hillarious! The funny part was your suggestion that there was an electrical-powered appliance that does meet your definition of necessary.

The Vermont Livable Wage Study I don't think has anything to do with AC and cable. It's about how much someone would need in order to afford things like heatlh care, transportation to work, without food and rent being too large a portion of their income, and I think with the possibility of saving some money. It's not meant to represent the least somebody could live on, it's supposed to represent an amount that would be a sustainable way to live.

And yes obviously there are economic worries about suddenly increasing the minimum wage. But the minimum wage hasn't grown in real dollars for what, 30 years now? I think it's sill to argue as if it's too much. People have gotten filthy rich off of the low wages of our service economy. They can easily take the brunt of increasing the minimum wage, not the middle class.

Ok...so we are talking about survival?
I can survive with no income. I have a Rambo knife, and have watched enough survivor man I can kill a rabbit with a rock.

Is this what we are debating here?
Surviving?

Cause seriously I can hunt, fish, and cut trees and build shelter...
We are talking about living as part of society.
Its only high 80s here today. I walked outside to get the mail and my entire head is soaking wet...If I didnt work for myself would you keep me as an employee if I ran everyone out of the McDonalds with my BO?

you have repeatedly ignored this point

But if we're going to be that pedantic, than you also have to note that the only products and services that are going to increase in cost directly related to the minimum wage, are those provided entirely by minimum wage workers. As mentioned before in this thread, that's not the people who provide/install/maintain/supervise/support your heat or internet, it's the people who flip burgers and the say "Hi! welcome to Wal-Mart!".

I think it would be very difficult to succesfully function in society without electricity and running water. Sure you could live without it if you had to, but I think it would be really difficult to keep up with society.

I'm talking about living as a part of society.

Are you telling me that people who don't have air conditioning are not able to work? That there is this overwhelming pandemic of people calling in to work and telling their bosses they can't make it in because their air conditioner went out? That you can't maintain basic hygiene without central air pumping through your home all day?