I would hope he plays CF when he plays and Jacoby goes to left.

Via Twitter...

OT: Buster_ESPN

Halladay's negotiations with the Phillies are complete; deal in place. He's taking a physical examination right now. 17 minutes ago from web

I've always like Mike Cameron.

Unless the Red Sox make a move for a bat though, this will being the biggest pitching over hitting Sox team of my lifetime. Should be interesting.

i think the odds are that he'll get some time in left but also some time in center...both him and ellsbury seem like they are more flexible OFers

very true! well i mean the philosophy lately has been "exploit what is undervalued" and clearly they feel that pitching+defense is undervalued right now...

God, I love having a good GM. Both Aumont and Gillies were blocked in the M's system. So depending on who the third prospect ends up being, worst case scenario gives us Lee to pair up with Felix for a year and then two 1st rounders when he signs elsewhere (you've gotta think he's a Type A).

Essentially, the M's give up one prospect for a year of Cliff Lee. Nice.

As a Phillies fan, I think what we forget is how cool it is for the fact that the Phillies are basically a news item. For years, this was a team that was an afterthought.

Losing Lee hurts, but if Amaro decides that the chances are better with Halladay, so be it.

Losing Drabek could hurt, but it's not like we're not getting prospects to put back into the farm system.

The team gets older but it's primed for at least one more charge into the breach, and I believe the risks are great but so is the reward. Furthermore, the team has drafted quite well as of recent, so I got the faith.

I read the philliesphan forum and "Ye gods" do they whine over the gutting of the farm system, but they are guys that overvalue every Phillies prospect.

Exactly. Most talent evaluators had Drabek as a #2 or a #3, he's not projected to be the future ace of the team. That's Cole Hamels still with Happ as our #3 guy. Also, we're getting two solid pitching prospects in return for one blue chipper. Not horrible.

As far as Taylor goes, the biggest criticism in moving him is that he is major league level ready now. That's fine, but the Phillies are locked into Ibanez/Victorino/Werth for at least the next two years, and by then Brown will be ready to step in there. Meanwhile, the other prospect we're getting from the Mariners fills in quite nicely as a "Taylor of the future".

Lastly, adding Halladay and signing him gives us cost certainty for next year's free agency. It makes it more and more likely that we'll try to extend Werth and Rollins over the next season or so where we might not have had the payroll if we extended Lee.

it sounds as of now we're also getting a 3b prospect as well.

The Jays already have a deal in place to trade Taylor to the A's for 3B Brett Wallace.

All I know is that from a fantasy baseball aspect, in my NL only keeper league I'm getting ass raped this offseason (lost Scherzer, Drabek, Taylor and probably A. Gonzalez when he moves to the Red Sox)

don't you have some sort of mechanism whereby you get compensation for traded players in the form of first-choice of players traded IN (drafted by say the overall rank of the player you lost - so if you lost the top-ranked guy you get the first pick)?

if not you ought to. that would at least likely net you Halladay for A. Gonzalez (IF he moves).

According to WFAN, the Mets are now officially eliminated from the 2010 playoffs.

As much as this trade sucks, it's probably a much better deal than JP would've gotten this summer and if they didn't do it now, it's unlikely they'd have made a better move at any other point.

If nothing else, it's better than the previous deals we've lost aces with (Yes, that's you Roger...) and the Blue Jays blogs are telling me it'll be okay in just a year. I don't know if I buy it, but...we'll go with it.

Yeah maybe they are going to implement Billy Ball in Boston or something.

Unfortunately no. It is a auction league so any guy you lose is just a guy lost.

that's ridiculous. :eek:

Here is Fangraph's take on the Philly-Toronto-Seattle deal:

The Real Big Trade | FanGraphs Baseball

Let's just say, they didn't like the Lee to Seattle part of the trade for Philly.

John Lackey Inks with Boston | FanGraphs Baseball

They're not very bullish on Lackey either.

On the flipside they think the Cameron deal was a steal.

Cameron of Boston | FanGraphs Baseball
Bay Vs Cameron | FanGraphs Baseball

I have been so darn impressed with Jack Z so far in his time in Seattle.

SI

What is conveniently forgotten in that analysis is that Seattle is getting a one-year rental for Lee.

Really, the deal should be looked at as two seperate trades: (1) what the Phillies gave up to get Halladay for three years; and (2) what the Mariners gave up to get Lee for one year.

I'm not sure the market for Lee at one year is as strong as people are claiming. Heck, look at what the Phillies gave up to get Lee last year. It's not like we sacrificed big prospects to get Cliff for one and a half years. Is it really fair to expect a team to trade us more for only one full season?

I get the feeling that what motivated this deal now was that the Phillies were negotiate an extension as a condition to the trade, whereas Toronto would not allow this before the 2008 trade deadline.

If Riccardi had, then the Phillies would've done this same deal in July and possibly even given up a bit more. I think the last standing offer to the Jays was Drabek, Taylor, and Lou Marson. I bet the Phillies would've given up more if Riccardi hadn't been a dolt and allow the Phillies to renegotiate Halladay.

What exactly do you mean that Lee only being under contract for one year is "conveniently" forgotten? Did you read the article?

especially this part:

Oh, wait. Isn't this the same guy who thought that Ibanez was a bad signing last year and that the Devil Rays were getting a bargain with Pat Burrell?

Oh, and as far as the three players highlighted above, J.C. Romero was signed before the 2009 off-season, and his salary is $4.25 million for 2010. Only Schneider and Gload were signed this season. Romero is basically radioactive due to injury and that whole steroid thing.

Of course, he conveniently misses that as well.

Lastly, I get the feeling that Blanton is/was also extremely difficult to move as well due to the 7 million he's likely to make in arbitration.

Phillies probably reason that Blanton's 12 or so wins at 4.50 ERA with the prospects from the Lee deal > Lee's 18 or 19 wins at 3.00 ERA with prospects from Blanton deal.

You are thinking of Eric Seidman, while Dave Cameron wrote this article... but let us not get those facts in the way.

Same website, yes?

And? So everyone who writes on ESPN.com is exactly the same as anyone else who writes for ESPN.com?

Or is this just another "HOW DARE SOMEONE SAY MY TEAM MADE A BAD DEAL" post, and damn the facts?

you're on the same website with Flasch and MBBF - would you like to be grouped in with either of them based on that?

Thinking in terms of baseball, Peter Gammons was the only writer/contributor to ESPN who stuck out as having seperate credibility from ESPN. All of the other Jayson Starks, Buster Olneys, and Keith Laws of the world all suck from the ESPN teet, so they are indistinguishable in my mind (as are Heyman and Verducci for SI).


Nah, if it's a bad deal, I'll say it's a bad deal. If the Phillies had not been able to sign Halladay to an extension, but kept Lee and Halladay for only 2010, I'd be on here saying its a bad deal. I'm not one of those who think that selling out for 2010 and 2010 alone is the way for the Phillies to go.

In the end, we're arguing about prospects man. Prospects, not the real major leaguers. But prospects? Prospects. I can't believe we're talking about prospects. :)

I guess my cynicism towards that blogger is that it's simply way too early to debate the merits of any deal when the major criticism is the value of prospects any team got back.

Oh, and as for "facts". What you are promoting is not "facts" but ways to state the truth to bolster your own opinion. I can do that as well. :D


Shudder. Good point. Good thing I don't pimp FOFC to my real world life. :D

What I can't figure out is why the Phils just didn't ride it out with Halladay and Lee. Sign Halladay to his extension, let Lee walk after the yr and get the comp picks. If I were a Phillies fan I would probably be a bit upset with management not going for it. I know they need to look towards the future, but in professional sports, you gotta strike while the iron's hot. Even when Lee walks, you still get the comp pick, so it would be almost a wash, anyhow.

It would be fair to note here that Cameron also is half of the USS Mariner blog, so he may not be totally impartial in this particular matter......though generally he's pretty consistent with what he values in players.

Oh sweet, a black JD Drew. That'll go over fantastically with Red Sox Nation. :popcorn:

:confused:

People already irrationally hate JD Drew even though he's been one of our best offensive players and our best/2nd best defender in recent years, mainly because of the perception he strikes out too much/keeps the bat on his shoulder. Add in the (alleged) racism that is there in certain sections of (the/any) fanbase and it's going to be a loooooong year if Cameron comes out of the gate replacing Jason Bay hitting anything less than .300 with a few strikeouts in big situations.

guess i just don't see the racism as much.

and i don't think cameron will do that at all - the front office should do a good job getting out in front of it and setting the expectation for the fans

In the Boston area you don't? Really????

If Mike Cameron doesn't start the year 1 for 3 he won't ever get to .300 on the year.

Still a good signing though for the Sox.

Oh goodness, definitely be prepared for Cameron to leave his bat on his shoulder and to not come through in some key situations. He can be frustrating at times but when you look at his overall body of work, there's no denying he's a quality player.

Unfortunately, fans will look at his batting average (he'll never be a .300 hitter, more .250-260) and he'll strike out quite a bit and think that he stinks.

I still remember Brewer fans bitching that we kept Mike Cameron around and that he blocked Tony Gwynn Jr......

Like I've said before, it really depends on the circles you run in. Amongst the younger and more educated crowds it's a non-issue, and from what I know of DT - 20's, went to BC, lives in Wellesley, works at a (white-collar) start-up, types coherent posts that accurately convey a point - he almost certainly does run in those crowds (as do I.) If you want to start talking about the idiots that call into WEEI (and I avoid them as much as possible) or the older fans, then yes it is there. (If - and that's a big if - I'm remembering them correctly) I still don't entirely get your/your wife's personal experiences with racism - I've never seen it against Asians, at least ones that speak English - but I don't doubt there are some people out there.

Awww thanks Bishop!! :D

I'm actually 30 now though.

You're right though - I definitely run in those crowds, but I suppose amongst the "idiot fringe" it's definitely there (as like you said I suspect it is in most cities). I guess I just like to think that the idiot fringe is slowly aging and dieing off.

If I can still pass for 21, you can go 20's. On the last part, I can only hope so, but we're pulling this thread off track. The main point of my snarky remark was less the race and more the similar playing style to JD Drew.

In addition to going after defense and pitching, the Red Sox are clearly targeting players with a high # of pitches per at bat - so the comparison to the A's is fairly apt. (EDIT to add numbers {last years rank in AL, name, pitches per at bat)

1st - Youk (4.42)
2nd - Nick Johnson (4.38)
6th - Hermida (4.21)
9th - Ortiz (4.19)
11th - Drew (4.13)
15th - Scutaro (4.07)
20th - Vmart (4.05)
32nd - Pedroia (3.96)
32nd - Cameron (3.96)
54th - Ellsbury (3.77)

Also reportedly the 8-year Cardinals offer leaked (by Boras?) is wrong and the Cards are sticking to 5 years because they don't think they're competing with anyone right now.

For fun a list of (mostly) potentially available* "power hitters" in the next 2 years by road OPS (*not intended to be a referendum on every players availabilty - some players are thrown in for comparison purposes)

Name	OPS
Albert Pujols	1.051
Adrian Gonzalez	0.935
Prince Fielder	0.924
Joey Votto	0.908
Miguel Cabrera	0.908
Joe Mauer	0.901
Hanley Ramirez	0.898
Jason Bay	0.898
Todd Helton	0.885
Adam Dunn	0.885
Justin Morneau	0.865
Brad Hawpe	0.864
Derrek Lee	0.861
Hideki Matsui	0.856
Shin-Soo Choo	0.855
Magglio Ordonez	0.853
Victor Martinez	0.847
Jayson Werth	0.830
Carlos Pena	0.828
Grady Sizemore	0.820
Milton Bradley	0.817
Matt Holliday	0.808

I dunno if he's started to degrade yet. Anyways, just based on the limited amount of baseball I watch, if Cameron couldn't get to a ball, pretty much nobody can.

So I dunno why you'd put him in anywhere but center.

If you want to see your star centerfielder's skull slammed into?

The idiot fringe is still there and thriving. I lived in the North End, where a non-white person was about as rare as a Sox World Series win. Most of the idiot fringe has moved out to Revere, Sommerville, and the likes, but it is still very present. My wife mentioned when we live there that everyone seems to joke about how racist the south is compared to Boston, but it is mainly because Boston is still highly segregated.

Anyway, while there is plenty of racism and the Sox have been historically mostly white, nobody cares about color so long as you're hitting.

So yeah, the Mariners and GM Jack Zduriencik continue to shock, amaze, and awe. Milton Bradley for Carlos freakin' Silva. I know Bradley had almost no trade value, but man. Carlos Silva is TERRIBLE. Suck for the Cubs and their fans, especially when it looks like they're going to spend what little money they saved on Marlon Byrd.

I am really happy for Seattle fans, though. If there's a sports town that could use something to cheer for and a team to have hope in, it's Seattle. And the scary thing is, I don't think they're done yet.

Also, I really, really wish the Giants had signed Nick Johnson. Apparently they offered more money than the Yankees, but weren't willing to go to 2 years. I'd have given him the extra year, but I completely understand why they didn't. I also understand why Johnson would take a little less to sign with New York. He has a chance to put up some serious numbers in that lineup and that ballpark, which would probably earn him a nice contract next year. Assuming he stays healthy, of course. Nick Johnson could suffer a career ending injury while he's in the act of putting his signature on the contract, so that's a ginormous if.

I think many of us M's fans are still kind of in shock - after 4 years of damn near the worst GM in the game, we now have a guy who's making his case for being one of the best.

Bradley has a lot of risk, but he's got vastly higher upside than does Silva, and he fills a hole whereas Silva was dead weight.

Apparently the Yanks are close to a deal for a SP that isn't a salary dump guy.

Also, M and Jay's stay busy as the M's trade Morrow to Toronto for League and a prospect.

Seems like a very odd move for Seattle.

I've learned to trust Zdurenciek, so I have to assume the prospect is pretty good.

From a 2010 performance standpoint, there might not be a big difference between Morrow and League - League has the toolset to be a really good reliever with his high groundball rate and high swinging strike rate. Morrow has yet to prove he can be a consistently good SP. But RP's are volatile, and even though League has the FIP to have great results, you're still talking about limited innings (relatively speaking) where bad luck can really skew the numbers.

I'm sad to see Morrow shipped off, as it means the M's didn't get the stud SP out of him they hoped for when he was drafted. But intellectually, I've been prepared for a while now of the likelihood that he'd be dealt, as he's more likely to lose value moving forward than gain it.

Seems unlikely the prospect is Wallace given how hard Toronto worked to get him back, but he's a guy that would make a lot of sense for the M's as he'd slide in as our 1B.

Braves must have a hard-on for shitty OFs, as they trade Javier Vazquez for Melky Cabrera (plus a prospect or two, but nothing good as far as I can tell).

In all seriousness, are the Marlins the 2nd best team in the NL East?

Cashman has had one hell of an off-season.

really? that's a fucking giveaway to the yankees. how is JV's contract?

Holy Fuck!! Are you kidding me, Braves?

Contract is 1/$12 or so, I believe. The prospect is Arodys Vizcaino who is very young but done well so far.

that's redonkulous.

Nope, that's what happens when you've got a GM that's in so far over his head he can't see up.

ESPN is saying the prospect is Mike Dunn while the Braves throw in Boone Logan, but bloggers in NY seem to be saying Dunn + another prospect (maybe that's where Vizcaino comes in?)

But have no fear Braves fans, we've invited Joe Thurston to camp. Suddenly Greg Norton's plate appearances will look much better.

What does this mean for the Braves with Derek Lowe? I was hoping the Braves would trade him, since he was the "worst" of the 6 starters they had, and he had been grumbling about maybe being the odd-man-out (with 3 years $45 million left on his contract). With Vasquez gone, I guess they are still going to have to use Lowe, but now he is pissed off at management for looking to trade him after only one year. Of course, I think he should man-up and get over himself and pitch a little better if he wants to be treated right. Seems like it's getting to be a cluster fuck in Atlanta these days...

Who in their right mind would have traded for Lowe without Atlanta picking up a large part of the contract?

I suppose that doesn't excuse Atlanta for trading Javy Vazquez for nothing all that inspiring.

Fuck you Frank Wren. Goddamn.

Jesus Christ, Frank Wren isn't very smart, eh? Surely you could do better for Vasquez, or eat a chunk of Lowe's salary and move him.

Edit: to note, the arm is what BP calls the Yankees #2 prospect, and what BA calls their no 3. I just don't see the appeal of Melky Cabrera to the Braves.

Angels will take on Lowe in exchange for Gary Matthews Jr. :)

Yes this is true. I was going to post a longer reply to Bishop but figured what is the point. I have had similar discussions with my own inlaws. I am white, affluent (now) and associated with similar "crowds" as Bishop noted but am slightly older than he and DT 41. I lived in Newton but was born in Worcester and have to say that I found the white collar collar people in Newton shockingly as much if not more bigoted than the blue collar types from the Worcester area though Newton people are obviously more educated. So, the point that just because someone is highly educated and rich makes them more tolerant is ridiculous. YMMV. Does anyone think if Randy Moss was a hard nosed scrappy type white player ala Welker he would of been berated last week by the fans and the media? Anyways, two white guys arguing about racism in Boston is like Tiger Woods and Charlie Sheen discussing the finer points of monogamous relationships.

:lol:

I did not by the way mean to insult any of the Boston regulars here like yourself DT or Bishop. In fact, my post was not specifically meant for anyone here but was more a dangerous generalization.

Oh I know. No worries.

I don't think any of us who post on here from MA necessarily fit into that stereotype actualy. Those are the sort of people who frankly...spend more time at the bars in Southie than they do on their computers.

There is definitely something to be said for segregation in Boston. I've never really seen racism out here, but at the same time I don't see a Benetton ad either.

I'm convinced whatever the Giants wind up doing will be a disaster. They'll overpay for Bay and then he'll either get hurt or start his career decline early.

Big things coming out of NY. Mets are close to signing R.A. Dickey to minor league deal.

(I do find it funny that I'm the one arguing less racism here since my original comment was was pointing out that Mike Cameron's race wouldn't help him amongst the vocal portion of the fanbase, but...)

For the record, in my experience the age thing and where someone grew up is more important than the town rich older people have moved to. Concord is clearly a racist town (against black and hispanic people) on some level, albeit improving, especially given that a certain part of the growth in the 70's/80's between the 95/495 belts was in reaction to school busing - when I was in a 1200 person HS (99-03) I could count the non-METCO black kids on my hands. But A) very few people I knew in HS or from college have ever said or meant anything racist (while I have seen it numerous times at bars or parties by idiots my age from a Revere or Plymouth or Billerica) and B) on the specific point I've just never seen it in my town (or the neighboring ones) against people of Asian descent, who are actually over-represented (while I have seen it numerous times by older bigots from Concord or other rich "white" towns against black and/or hispanic people, and even jewish ones). Or heard about it from any of my asian friends, while I have heard stories from black, hispanic and jewish ones, although hey, YMMV and all that. Self-segregation in housing and the social scene definitely occurs, but it's hard for me to classify that as racism as I've been to predominantly asian, black, hispanic and jewish events and not felt uncomfortable.

It'd also be intriguing to break down the Wes Welker/Randy Moss (or Manny/Jason Bay, which would belie miked's point, or Bonds/other alleged sterois users nationally) dynamic and see how much race has to do with it vs. "high-paid star"/"scrappy underdog" or "answers questions"/"is a dick, particularly to the media", but I have no desire to listen to any idiot who thinks Randy Moss is a worse player for the Patriots than Wes Welker when a large part of Welker getting open is because Moss is double-teamed every play, and lastly let's not pretend the scrappy white underdog is a Boston invention (see: WS MVP David Eckstein, etc). (Also FTR DT, as much as Southie is the go to stereotype, it's actually gentrifying really quickly - just as poor/blue collar white people were pushed out of the North End - between Asians spreading out from the South End and yuppies who want an easy T ride to downtown without the exorbitant costs of the city itself/Cambridge/the outer green line.)

Oh well, let's focus on what's important here - the Yankees just added an SP who averaged 200+ IP and 200 K's a year for the last decade (who will be Type A after the year) for a 4th outfielder and a (very good) single-A pitcher. Plus it probably opens up LF in NYY for Holliday if they want that, and some speculate the $8m in savings for ATL will be used to sign Jason Bay, bumping our compensation for Wagner down to the 2nd round (although we don't lose the Braves 1st-rounder). Let's hope Vasquez regresses hard on ERA - 4 of his last 6 years were 4.42+ - and he did have his worst season in 11 years when pitching for the Yankees previously, but there's very little to like here from a 2010 Red Sox (or Rays/any other AL contender) perspective.

I find this Boston debate interesting. I lived there for a year, but was too young to really be aware of the racism that may or may not exist, but does exist in the places you'd imagine it not to. I had some family that lived in Brockton. Cool place from what I remember. Anyway, that's all I got that subject.

In speaking of black folk, I'm calling a breakout year for Cameron Maybin.

His lack of fundamentals will surely do him in.

oh i know - i have an ex co-worker who lives on the border of Southie. I was just playing up the stereotype of Southie bars...mainly because I couldn't think of anywhere else to say (although Revere would have worked).

the fact that every other team gets themselves over a financial barrel and then is forced to trade good-to-decent players to the Yankeees for crap prospects just to shed salary is disgusting.and irresponsible.

Are we talking about Vazquez here?

yeah

Obviously the trade of Vazquez signals the Braves believe Hudson to be back in form. I can't believe they picked up his insane option (12M?? 15M??) and didn't pay to get rid of Lowe. Trading Vazquez was horrible, trading him for an older version of Jordan Schaeffer or whoever else they have in AAA is even worse. I mean, I guess that's what happens when you wait for Lackey to be signed, Halladay and Lee to be traded, and all the teams with money to spend have already gotten their pitchers.

They also non-tendered Church, meaning they gave away Francoeur for nothing, and are paying Kenshin 6.7M to be a 5th starter/long reliever. What a dreadful offseason.

Braves sign Troy Glaus to play 1B.
Report: Braves sign Troy Glaus to play first base *| ajc.com

Nothing says buzzkill like the announcement that your team has signed a free agent to play centerfield who batted .243 with 2 HR's and 18 RBI's last year.

ewwww

How about signing a starting catcher who has done the following the last 2 season (.246/.327/.324 and .241/.331/.305) when you have a guy who can did .273/.318/.442 last year? Did I mention the new guy is a 35 year old C and he is signed to a 2 year contract? Good job, GMDM

SI

Yeah, I know. The notion behind the signing is that his defense should save us quite a few runs given our passed ball issues last year, but you're doing to have to do some major stat crunching to justify the decrease in offense that move brings in. I hope it ends up being some fantastic surprise, but I'm not holding my breath.

Heh, Royals fans, have fun with Jason Kendall. His supposed top attributes involve his handling of a pitching and making contact as a hitter.

To brush one thing aside rather quickly, sure Kendall puts a bat on the ball but one quick glance at his batting line will tell you flat out that the guy can't hit.

And if he called such a good game, why the hell did the Brewers have one of the worst pitching staffs in all of baseball last year?

To make matters worse, he insists on playing every single day. He must have naked pictures of every manager he's played for because I guarantee you the backup catcher for KC will disappear next year.

Look on the bright side, in KC at least you have the DH so it's not like having two pitchers batting in your lineup. Then again, if Yuniesky Betancourt is starting at SS......

There's no need to beat us like a rented mule when we openly admit that our team sucks. :D

Interesting post by Dave Cameron today at the USSMariner blog - his speculation is that the Morrow for League/Chavez deal was actually part of the Lee/Halladay/etc. mega-deal, but announced later to work out some final details (especially considering the 72-hour window Philly had to negotiate with Halladay).

Be interesting to hear of Jack Z confirms this or not, but the theory makes some sense.

http://ussmariner.com/2009/12/23/cho...wn-conclusion/

I approve of the Braves trade.

Bay to the Mets - 4 years, $16.5MM per. Announcement next week.

I like the move for the Mets. Hopefully, this means Holliday will sign with the Cards soon.

Geez 16.5M a year for Bay? Glad the Sox didn't give him that.

seriously

Well it is only $1.5 mil a year more than Red Sox offered... and to franchises to the Mets and Red Sox, $1.5 mil a year is nothing much.

Given the revolt of the fanbase over not getting any pitching they pretty much had to sign Bay.

Lets see him try to pull one out of Citifield.

I think the real difference is the "easily vesting" 5th year.

http://twitter.com/nyp_joelsherman/status/7169369634

The Mets just went from being 18 GB to 15 GB the Phillies next year.

The Mets have no choice really but to go for broke the next 2-3 years. I'd rather have seen Holliday come to NY, but I'll wait and see what else Omar fucks up before I judge this deal.

Considering the fact the Mets aren't going to have anywhere near as much bad luck with injuries next year and the Phillies offense is likely to regress, I think the Mets are probably going to be overlooked heading into next season. The Phillies are definitely the favorites, but with a healthy Beltran, Reyes, Wright, Santana, KRod, and Bay it doesn't take a hell of a lot more to at least get into position to take the wild card.