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rkmsuf 05-13-2008 10:24 AM

Charlie Rosen is pretty much the man. I encourage you to read his stuff if you don't already.

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LeBron rises, Celtics shrink in fourth quarterby Charley Rosen
Charley Rosen is FOXSports.com's NBA analyst and author of 14 books about hoops, the current one being No Blood, No Foul.

Updated: May 13, 2008, 12:03 AM EST 47 comments add this RSS blog email print Game Time: Cavaliers 88, Celtics 77

Another away-from-home gut check for the Celtics resulted in still another throw-up performance.

2008 NBA playoffs



The responsibility for Boston's fifth consecutive road loss was equally divided between the hometown heroes and the road wimps.

Here's the breakdown:


Cleveland

The Cavs effectively countered Boston's screen/rolls with a switch-and-swarm defense that held the Celts to 38.6 percent shooting.

Except for a couple of lapses by Ben Wallace early in the game, the baseline rotations of the Cavs' big men were right on time.

Indeed, the only defensive liability for Cleveland was Sasha Pavlovic, who was repeatedly abused by Paul Pierce.

On offense, LeBron continued his shooting woes — 2-13 from mid-range and beyond — but when the game was on the line late in the fourth quarter, he nailed an 18-footer, then bulled his way to a resounding dunker. Overall, LBJ was 7-20, 13 assists, three steals, two blocks, four turnovers, and 21 points. Not quite a super-human effort, but good enough to totally control the end-game.

Ben Wallace made a couple of hustling plays on defense, but was otherwise invisible.

Zydrunas Ilguaskas — 3-10, seven rebounds, two assists, nine points — was another non-factor.

Wally Szczerbiak was solid early — 6-11, 14 points — and managed to play adequate position defense.

Daniel Gibson — 5-9, six rebounds, four assists, 14 points — killed the Celtics by turning kick-back passes from LeBron into swishes.

Delonte West got poked in the eye and had a rather subdued game — 3-8, one assist, two turnovers, six points — but right out of the gate he repeatedly got into the middle against Rajon Rondo and made a couple of sensational buckets that helped the Cavs get off the mark.

Anderson Varejao — 6-8, six rebounds, 12 points — was a stand-up defender, and even hit a jump shot.

The Cavs shot 45.5 percent primarily because the Celtics' defense routinely overreacted when LeBron threatened to power his way into the paint. On several such sequences, the Celtics surrounded with him with all five defenders. No wonder Cleveland wound up with so many uncontested perimeter shots.

Here's an obscure stat to ponder: In the Cavs' half-court sets, LBJ received 40 passes when he was stationary and only seven passes when he was in motion. Subtracting the shots that he took (1-3), James wound up cashing in four of his dimes after he caught the ball on the move.
In any case, it was the Cavs' nasty defense coupled with the Celtics' powder-puff offense that won the game.


Paul Pierce and the Celtics are now 0-5 on the road in the playoffs. (Gregory Shamus / Getty Images)


Boston
Except for a couple of weaves that turned into either handoffs or reverse cuts that generated good looks for Ray Allen, Boston was never able to get into any kind of rhythm on offense.


With their S/Rs smothered, they frequently over-handled and had to resort to individual efforts. That's why the Celts managed only 16 assists on 27 baskets to the Cavs' 24 and 35.

Pierce was AWOL — 6-17, 13 points — forcing a number of shots and missing a couple of layups.

Ray Allen ran himself to daylight only on a limited basis — 4-10, three assists, 15 points — and did a poor job on defense, particularly when he was supposed to be tracking Wally World around weak-side screens.

Rajon Rondo was the most energetic of the Celts — 7-14, four assists, two steals, three turnovers, 15 points — and even made half of his eight jumpers. But Rondo also forced several shots and made at least a half-dozen poor decisions with the ball.

Sam Cassell — 0-5, 4 points — was a minus at both ends of the court.

Then there's Kevin Garnett — 6-13, 10 rebounds, four assists, 15 points. He posted up five times and attacked the basket only once — a hard drive that suddenly turned into a fadeaway, contact-avoiding flip shot that badly missed. In the fourth quarter, KG was 0-2. During the two losses in Cleveland, Garnett has exposed himself as being strictly a finesse player who leads the league in fakes-per-shot.
What must the Celtics do to protect their home-court advantage in Game 5?



Try Tony Allen behind Rondo at the point.

Set up screens on both boxes and run Ray Allen through snake routes a la Rip Hamilton.

Post Pierce against LBJ.

Get KG the ball at the foul line so that he can't be doubled, and where he can maximize his quickness. And encourage Garnett to attack the basket, take the resulting hits and get to the stripe.

Get more ball- and player-movement into the offense, and implement more alignments where the ball can be reversed.

Maintain more defensive balance when LeBron drives by sending only one helper and staying in touch with the likes of Gibson, Szczerbiak and West.
If the Celtics think that the Cavs will automatically go belly-up in Boston, then their season won't survive the weekend.


http://msn.foxsports.com/nba/story/8...fourth-quarter

Arles 05-13-2008 02:37 PM

I think this might be the postseason that shows Garnett would not have been the same as Tim Duncan had he been in SA instead of Minnesota (like many KG fan's have insinuated). KG is a nice player, hard worker and good teammate. But, none of that changes the fact he doesn't have it in his DNA to be "The Man" in crunch time like Kobe and Duncan.

For Boston to win, Pierce needs to carry them as he's the only guy who both wants to and is capable of doing so. Cassel and Ray Allen want to (but aren't capable) while KG is capable (but doesn't seem to want to).

stevew 05-13-2008 03:23 PM

KG's an overrated Baby. Always has been, always will be.

BishopMVP 05-13-2008 03:41 PM

With all this negativity, anyone want to make a sig bet on the Celtics winning Game 5? I'm sorry, but they didn't look any worse losing Games 3 and 4 in Cleveland, particularly Game 4 which was practically tied until the last 3 minutes than they did losing Games 3, 4 and 6 in Atlanta. And we all saw them blowout the Hawks Games 5 and 7 at home, just like they did the Cavs in Game 2.

Jas_lov 05-13-2008 03:52 PM

I doubt they'll put their money where their mouth is. I think the Celtics win game 5 and the series. It's up to the higher seed to win on the road and prove they can win the series, not the other way around. If Kobe is healthy, the Lakers will win game 5 and the series. Hornets-Spurs is a little more difficult to predict, but until the team with home court loses at home they're not in trouble.

Scoobz0202 05-13-2008 04:00 PM

Garnett is having a better series then Lebron. And yet Lebron is still getting all the praise. I definitely don't think Garnett is overrated.

Brian Swartz 05-13-2008 04:11 PM

From a shooting point-of-view Garnett's having a great series and LeBron a horrible one. From any other point of view LeBron is having a far superior series, and I think it's clear to anyone watching the games he's having a far greater impact. Cleveland's defense has not had to react much to KG, while Boston's is set to deny LeBron, opening up opportunities for others. And of course KG's disappearing act in the fourth quarter is a huge difference as compared to LeBron trying to be a closer(and succeeding in one of the two close games).

Take LeBron off Cleveland and KG off Boston, and it's not hard to see it wouldn't be 2-2 at this point.

molson 05-13-2008 07:07 PM

Reading these comments you'd think the Celtics were down 3-1 at this point. Were they even favored in games 3 & 4? If so, it couldn't have been by much.

The real question is whether Cleveland can win in Boston, not the other way around.

The Celtics are in trouble once/if the Cavs steal a game in Boston, until then, they're still in control here.

rkmsuf 05-14-2008 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BishopMVP (Post 1727474)
With all this negativity, anyone want to make a sig bet on the Celtics winning Game 5? I'm sorry, but they didn't look any worse losing Games 3 and 4 in Cleveland, particularly Game 4 which was practically tied until the last 3 minutes than they did losing Games 3, 4 and 6 in Atlanta. And we all saw them blowout the Hawks Games 5 and 7 at home, just like they did the Cavs in Game 2.


Cavs are a shit team. Losing even two games to them is a failure. Never mind losing 3 to Atlanta.

molson 05-14-2008 08:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rkmsuf (Post 1727772)
Cavs are a shit team. Losing even two games to them is a failure. Never mind losing 3 to Atlanta.


At what point is just winning a playoff series enough? Is their season a failure if they won the championship but needed 7 games in every series?

Neon_Chaos 05-14-2008 08:48 AM

I'll wait until either the Jazz or the Cavs win away before pressing the "oh shit, they're in trouble" button for either the Lakers or the Celtics.

The Spurs, on the other hand... might look like they're down and out, but they're resilient bastards.

rkmsuf 05-14-2008 09:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by molson (Post 1727809)
At what point is just winning a playoff series enough? Is their season a failure if they won the championship but needed 7 games in every series?


of course not. you really think that's where the C's fortune is headed based on the basketball played in their two series so far?

detroit figures to wipe the floor with them at this point if they get out of the cavs series.

they couldn't win a single game in ATLANTA. that's embarrassing. Now Wally and Delonte West look like superstars. that's embarrassing.

BishopMVP 05-14-2008 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rkmsuf (Post 1727772)
Cavs are a shit team. Losing even two games to them is a failure. Never mind losing 3 to Atlanta.

Agreed, and Doc is a terrible coach, KG isn't assertive enough and Sam Cassell has been a huge negative. Doesn't change my main point that this "Cavs in 6" shit is ridiculous. Home teams are now 17-1 this round, and the one was a 1-pt victory at the buzzer. I don't know why, but it seems this year is even worse for home/road disparity - NO/SA for example are blowing each other out at home and losing by 20+ on the road. The Celtics are probably going to win tonight, and there's probably a 50/50 chance it will be by double digits.

LloydLungs 05-14-2008 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BishopMVP (Post 1728005)
I don't know why, but it seems this year is even worse for home/road disparity - NO/SA for example are blowing each other out at home and losing by 20+ on the road.


It is definitely worse this year. Honestly it's puzzling to me. Home court advantage should be marginally lessened in the playoffs -- I think the grind of the regular season, the back-to-backs, the jetlag, etc are a big factor in HCA, but you don't have that stuff in the playoffs. You get to settle in a city, no back-to-backs... it seems like the crowd is the biggest factor left, and it's hard to understand how professional athletes can be that rattled by crowds. The Hornets-Spurs series is insane. You're talking about literally 40+ point swings depending on the location of the court they're playing on. It's like there's no point in trying to analyze these games this year. Just pick the home team and be done with it.

rkmsuf 05-14-2008 01:09 PM

I'll give a pass to the west teams losing on the road. They are actually playing good teams in their buildings. Celtics have faced two junk teams and even those junk teams aren't playing particularly well. Look what happens when Detroit faces a lousy team. They win in 5 and don't even need their best player.

molson 05-14-2008 01:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rkmsuf (Post 1727825)
of course not. you really think that's where the C's fortune is headed based on the basketball played in their two series so far?



Unlike Detroit, the Celtics haven't lost a game at home or trailed in a series yet. Their playoff point differential is also better than the Pistons'.

The question is why they suck so much on the road right now after having the best road record in the NBA in the regular season. Maybe there's something to it, maybe it's just a small sample size. But they've barely been challenged at home. It's an issue, but hardly a fatal one until someone wins in Boston.

korme 05-14-2008 01:36 PM

I'll be the first to say it...

Spurs in 7 (over NOH)

rkmsuf 05-14-2008 01:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by molson (Post 1728076)
Unlike Detroit, the Celtics haven't lost a game at home or trailed in a series yet. Their playoff point differential is also better than the Pistons'.

The question is why they suck so much on the road right now after having the best road record in the NBA in the regular season. They've barely been challenged at home. It's an issue, but hardly a fatal one until someone wins in Boston.


Please stop with the point differential nonsense.

molson 05-14-2008 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rkmsuf (Post 1728084)
Please stop with the point differential nonsense.


Winning by blowout isn't more impressive than winning a close game?

rkmsuf 05-14-2008 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by molson (Post 1728087)
Winning by blowout isn't more impressive than winning a close game?


Judging by the two C's series the answer is clearly NO.

molson 05-14-2008 01:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rkmsuf (Post 1727772)
Cavs are a shit team. Losing even two games to them is a failure. Never mind losing 3 to Atlanta.


Was it a failure for the Pistons then to lose two games to the marginally-better 76ers, including one in their own building?

I don't disagree that the Celtics are in trouble, it just seems strange to write off the team with home court advantage when they've dominated at home.

rkmsuf 05-14-2008 01:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by molson (Post 1728094)
Was it a failure for the Pistons then to lose two games to the marginally-better 76ers, including one in their own building?

I don't disagree that the Celtics are in trouble, it just seems strange to write off the team with home court advantage when they've dominated at home.


Yes but then they beat the Magic in five games.

MikeVic 05-14-2008 01:53 PM

Without the heart of their team.

larrymcg421 05-14-2008 02:08 PM

I love that people have already forgotten that KG hit two clutch shots and LeBron missed a layup at the end of game one. Three games later and we've determiend that LeBron is clutch and KG is not because LeBron helped his team win two home games.

MikeVic 05-14-2008 02:11 PM

I just want to see a good, exciting, close finals. I thought Boston from the East or a crazy-powered LeBron would be the only way. Now that both the East and West have these home-court shenanigans and Boston isn't tearing through the East, it makes me less excited for the finals.

Groundhog 05-14-2008 07:16 PM

LeBron with a couple of early makes. Good sign for Cavs fans.

Noop 05-14-2008 07:57 PM

I like that LeBron is being aggressive to the hole. He has been to the line three times so far...

MrBug708 05-15-2008 12:43 AM

Good win the Lakers

Neon_Chaos 05-15-2008 12:43 AM

Lakers baby! Whooooooo.

BishopMVP 05-15-2008 02:15 AM

Lebron had 23 1st half, KG took 18-footers, Pierce's game is deteriorating faster than a speeding bullet, and, oh wait C's are up 3-2. See you guys late friday night once we lose again so we can talk about how bad the Celtics are before they win game 7.

Brian Swartz 05-15-2008 02:44 AM

Good grief. The point isn't that Boston is a horrible team. They aren't. Nobody left is. The point is that they are drastically underachieiving, and that they are not displaying championship characteristics. I.e., that they are playing like maybe the fifth or sixth best team in the league, not a dominant one. When their own coach says they need to be better under stress, that should lend some credibility to this, no?

Quote:

I love that people have already forgotten that KG hit two clutch shots and LeBron missed a layup at the end of game one. Three games later and we've determiend that LeBron is clutch and KG is not because LeBron helped his team win two home games.

Eh, actually it's more to the point that KG didn't want anything to do with the ball and did pretty much nothing of substance in Game Four(0-2, 1 reb in the 4th Q). Meanwhile in game 1 LeBron did miss a shot he should have made(a lot of them in fact). He was ready and willing to take those shots though. Garnett usually shrinks from them. Not hard to fathom the difference between the two.

Quote:

It is definitely worse this year. Honestly it's puzzling to me. Home court advantage should be marginally lessened in the playoffs -- I think the grind of the regular season, the back-to-backs, the jetlag, etc are a big factor in HCA, but you don't have that stuff in the playoffs. You get to settle in a city, no back-to-backs... it seems like the crowd is the biggest factor left, and it's hard to understand how professional athletes can be that rattled by crowds. The Hornets-Spurs series is insane. You're talking about literally 40+ point swings depending on the location of the court they're playing on. It's like there's no point in trying to analyze these games this year. Just pick the home team and be done with it.

This misses a few points. One, San Antonio has led all three games in NO at the half. The Hornets are winning because they have been physical with the Spurs and are as tough mentally as they are, which is not a combination SA sees often, to put it mildly. Game 3 was tight well into the fourth quarter. It's easy to look at the final score and say blowout, no contest for the home team but only Game 4 in the five games so far has been that way prior to halftime. Last time out, San Antonio just absolutely could not hit a shot in the third quarter, and that had a lot to do with it.

It's not so much the crowd this year as it is evenly matched teams and the familiarity with the environment, etc.

rkmsuf 05-15-2008 07:44 AM

The C's should just forfeit game 6.

Pumpy Tudors 05-15-2008 08:04 AM

I don't know how people can watch the NBA. The last 1:05 of the Cavaliers-Celtics game took 14 minutes to elapse. I turned the game on with that 1:05 on the clock and I told my wife I'd be in bed in a few minutes. Sure, I expected it to take maybe 5 minutes or so, but it took 14 minutes to run 65 seconds off the clock.

By comparison, the final 2:30 of the Red Wings-Stars hockey game took less time, and that was with a timeout, two penalties, and the puck going out of play at least once.

I've seen college basketball games in which the final 1:05 took only 1:04 to complete. I've been to a 3 Doors Down concert that was over in less than 14 minutes. When I was in fifth grade, I made out with one of my teachers and got myself pregnant in only 12 minutes.

Screw the NBA.

Fidatelo 05-15-2008 08:17 AM

My brother has long maintained that there is no point in watching the first 46 minutes of an NBA game, and for the most part I agree.

Pumpy Tudors 05-15-2008 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fidatelo (Post 1728470)
My brother has long maintained that there is no point in watching the first 46 minutes of an NBA game, and for the most part I agree.

I wouldn't be surprised if, minus the halftime show, the first 46 minutes of an NBA game took less than 14 minutes to play.

LloydLungs 05-15-2008 10:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brian Swartz (Post 1728378)
This misses a few points. One, San Antonio has led all three games in NO at the half. The Hornets are winning because they have been physical with the Spurs and are as tough mentally as they are, which is not a combination SA sees often, to put it mildly. Game 3 was tight well into the fourth quarter. It's easy to look at the final score and say blowout, no contest for the home team but only Game 4 in the five games so far has been that way prior to halftime. Last time out, San Antonio just absolutely could not hit a shot in the third quarter, and that had a lot to do with it.


You definitely don't have to sell me on the Hornets, as I am a Hornets fan, but for me it's basically all about defense. It's true that game 3 was not a one-sided game, but that was due to an abnormally good offensive game from the Hornets given that Bruce Bowen has essentially removed Peja from the roster -- and given that the Hornets usually create offense from their defense. The Hornets have not played a single minute of decent defense in San Antonio. Conversely, they are swarming all over the place (sorry) in New Orleans. I'm just sort of wondering why that is.

I don't expect anything different tonight. I don't think they'll get wiped out a la game 4, but their defensive rotations will again slow down (because of the crowd I suppose, I dunno) and we'll be headed back to New Orleans for game 7. My big concern there is the puzzling THREE full off days between games (what the hell, NBA?) so the Spurs will have three days to rest up and sit around thinking about their third quarters. Don't know if it will make a difference, but it's definitely a concern.

Brian Swartz 05-15-2008 05:21 PM

Quote:

The Hornets have not played a single minute of decent defense in San Antonio. Conversely, they are swarming all over the place (sorry) in New Orleans. I'm just sort of wondering why that is.

I guess I just don't agree with the premise here. Other than the initial burst of energy I haven't seen a whole lot of difference in the Hornets defensively(outside of the second half of Game Four). San Antonio made a lot of adjustments for Game Three offensively as well, and in Game 5 after the first few minutes NO's defense wasn't all that different than the games they played at SA. San Antonio just plain stopped making shots. They got a good amount of open shots in the third quarter of Game 5, pretty much the same ones they were making in Game 3. I really don't think it's any more complicated than that. A couple less layups maybe but not a major difference.

Groundhog 05-15-2008 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fidatelo (Post 1728470)
My brother has long maintained that there is no point in watching the first 46 minutes of an NBA game, and for the most part I agree.


This is one of those things that gets thrown around a lot about basketball in general.

Not surprisingly, I completely disagree. Why not have the NFL just play a college style OT period as the entire game? Why not have baseball matches last 1 inning? Cut straight to th epenalty shoot outs in soccer and hockey?

Groundhog 05-15-2008 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pumpy Tudors (Post 1728450)
I don't know how people can watch the NBA. The last 1:05 of the Cavaliers-Celtics game took 14 minutes to elapse. I turned the game on with that 1:05 on the clock and I told my wife I'd be in bed in a few minutes. Sure, I expected it to take maybe 5 minutes or so, but it took 14 minutes to run 65 seconds off the clock.

By comparison, the final 2:30 of the Red Wings-Stars hockey game took less time, and that was with a timeout, two penalties, and the puck going out of play at least once.

I've seen college basketball games in which the final 1:05 took only 1:04 to complete. I've been to a 3 Doors Down concert that was over in less than 14 minutes. When I was in fifth grade, I made out with one of my teachers and got myself pregnant in only 12 minutes.

Screw the NBA.


This I do agree with. Basketball should not turn in to the NFL in the last minute, with coaches calling a time out to bring on a different lineup and draw up a different play each possession. I think teams get too many timeouts - should be 1 full TO and 1 20 sec TO per quarter in the NBA. Keep the TV timeouts that are unavoidable.

Groundhog 05-15-2008 08:47 PM

Well, I guess the good news for the Hornets is that the Spurs can't shoot 70% from the floor all game long...

MrBug708 05-16-2008 08:25 PM

Ouch

Karlifornia 05-16-2008 08:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pumpy Tudors (Post 1728450)
I don't know how people can watch the NBA. The last 1:05 of the Cavaliers-Celtics game took 14 minutes to elapse. I turned the game on with that 1:05 on the clock and I told my wife I'd be in bed in a few minutes. Sure, I expected it to take maybe 5 minutes or so, but it took 14 minutes to run 65 seconds off the clock.

By comparison, the final 2:30 of the Red Wings-Stars hockey game took less time, and that was with a timeout, two penalties, and the puck going out of play at least once.

I've seen college basketball games in which the final 1:05 took only 1:04 to complete. I've been to a 3 Doors Down concert that was over in less than 14 minutes. When I was in fifth grade, I made out with one of my teachers and got myself pregnant in only 12 minutes.

Screw the NBA.


NBA bashing: It's what the cool kids are doing!

wade moore 05-16-2008 09:33 PM

Lebron is absurd.

molson 05-16-2008 09:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Karlifornia (Post 1729605)
NBA bashing: It's what the cool kids are doing!


The two most hilarious criticisms of the NBA I've read in this thread so far are:

1. Home teams win too often.
2. real time isn't more evenly distributed throughout the game time.

Noop 05-16-2008 09:36 PM

This has been some pretty $h!tty basketball. I am all for a good defensive game once in a while but this series is something else.

molson 05-16-2008 09:36 PM

KG actually looked nervous to take that shot

Young Drachma 05-16-2008 09:38 PM

Doc Rivers...please pick up the white courtesy phone.

Noop 05-16-2008 09:40 PM

Looks like Cleveland is ready to give this game away.

Noop 05-16-2008 09:40 PM

And the Celtics are playing hot potato apparently.

Noop 05-16-2008 09:43 PM

So why did they wait so long to foul? Every second counts numb nutts.

molson 05-16-2008 09:43 PM

I wonder if Lebron has ever been called for a blocking foul.

DaddyTorgo 05-16-2008 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by molson (Post 1729626)
I wonder if Lebron has ever been called for a blocking foul.


nope. that was fucking bullshit. Fucking homer call.

Noop 05-16-2008 09:49 PM

Unless we have a Reggie Miller'est performance in the last 14.4 seconds looks like Boston will be 0 for 6 on the road for the playoffs.

Noop 05-16-2008 09:50 PM

Maybe you guys aren't the most objectionably in this matter...maybe.

DaddyTorgo 05-16-2008 09:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noop (Post 1729630)
Maybe you guys aren't the most objectionably in this matter...maybe.


he was moving sideways and wasn't planted. Even the espn announcers said that

molson 05-16-2008 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noop (Post 1729630)
Maybe you guys aren't the most objectionably in this matter...maybe.


No, but do you think that was a charge? Or that Allen was goaltended? Or that Smith traveled?

Noop 05-16-2008 09:51 PM

I most have missed that.

molson 05-16-2008 09:53 PM

Don't get me wrong, the C's still sucked down the stretch once again. But that's a tough trio of calls in the last 90 seconds.

Noop 05-16-2008 09:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by molson (Post 1729632)
No, but do you think that was a charge? Or that Allen was goaltended? Or that Smith traveled?


Charge didn't see. Goaltend according to the rules I guess. Travel? I have only seen that called against the Celtics.

stevew 05-16-2008 10:04 PM

The charge could have gone either way, but Pierce is such a pussy boy drama queen, so fuck him. He instigated that contact when his shoulders weren't square to the defender. He was playing out of control. I've seen that one called a ton on the offensive player, including several times against LeBron in these playoffs.

Yeah, that was probably goaltending, although it hit the side of the glass and I'm not sure that means the same as if it hits the front of the glass. It very well may. I think West got that one on the way up or at its peak.

Probably a travel.

stevew 05-16-2008 10:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DaddyTorgo (Post 1729631)
he was moving sideways and wasn't planted. Even the espn announcers said that


That's not the whole criteria to determine whether or not something is an offensive foul. It may be bad judgement on the refs part, but it has been called pretty liberally for awhile now. Good defensive positioning will sometimes draw an offensive foul even if your feet aren't set. And pierce lunged there, which can also lead to an offensive foul.

wade moore 05-16-2008 10:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevew (Post 1729641)
That's not the whole criteria to determine whether or not something is an offensive foul. It may be bad judgement on the refs part, but it has been called pretty liberally for awhile now. Good defensive positioning will sometimes draw an offensive foul even if your feet aren't set. And pierce lunged there, which can also lead to an offensive foul.

Yeah, I thought Pierce lowering his shoulder was the key.

MrBug708 05-16-2008 10:47 PM

Lakers playing well

Chief Rum 05-16-2008 11:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by molson (Post 1729632)
No, but do you think that was a charge? Or that Allen was goaltended? Or that Smith traveled?


A charge? No. An offensive foul? Possibly--he drove in with his shoulder down.

Goaltended? Technically, yes, but only by the letter of the law. That ball wasn't going to end up anywhere near the hoop. But, called straight, yes, that should have been two points.

I missed the Smith play, but I only caught the last few minutes, and that was without sound.

I think the C's are going to win going away on Sunday.

MrBug708 05-17-2008 12:11 AM

C'mon Lakers...Hold On...

MrBug708 05-17-2008 12:11 AM

Good Lord

Neon_Chaos 05-17-2008 12:19 AM

WHOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!

Western Conference Finals!

MrBug708 05-17-2008 12:20 AM

Holy Crap that was nerveracking

rjolley 05-17-2008 12:48 AM

I thought the Pierce/Lebron call was poor. Looked like Lebron reached in to go for the steal and initiated the contact. Didn't appear Pierce was out of control, more like he was doing what perimeter players, including Lebron, usually do, put their head down and try to get to the rim. Thought Lebron got the advantage with the reach and the foul should've been defensive.

The travel by Garnett in the paint was valid. Not sure which one you're talking about on Smith...unless the one on Garnett was actually on Smith.

The non-call on the goaltend was the right call. I don't think the side of the backboard counts as the backboard in the context of a goaltend.

Thought the C's were going to pull it off. Pierce and Allen struggled to make shots. Back to Boston. Should be a good game on Sunday.

Mantle2600 05-17-2008 02:38 AM

Pierce hit LBJ alot harder on that call than Bron was hitting Pierce on his charges, so cry me a river. Even if it's not called it does'nt mean the Celtics would have won the game. If their so better then it's time to put up or shut up.

MrBug708 05-17-2008 02:40 AM

As a Lakers fan, I'm not sure who I want in the next round. Spurs are aging but are battle tested and the Lakers have some unfinished business with them. The Hornets are young and dangerous but this is very unfamiliar ground for them

Neon_Chaos 05-17-2008 02:45 AM

Bring on the Hornets. I'd rather see either the Lakers or NO to advance to the finals than the Spurs again. :)

Neon_Chaos 05-17-2008 02:45 AM

Bug, as a fellow Kobeliever, did you even imagine that the Lakers would be where they are at this point in the season?

:D

MrBug708 05-17-2008 02:52 AM

Preseason? No. What Kobe has done (and Jerry West this year for us :)) has been nothing short of amazing. Kobe's numbers were very similiar to some of Jordan's numbers when they were winning championships instead of playing for themselves. :)

miami_fan 05-17-2008 10:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrBug708 (Post 1729666)
Holy Crap that was nerveracking


They did not get the memo that they were suppose to quit when they were down by 16 going into the 4th.

MrBug708 05-17-2008 10:13 AM

I think they missed the memo where they were not suppose to make 5 of 7 from the three with under 2 minutes to play

stevew 05-17-2008 10:58 AM

Jazz got 2 good looks at the end, I guess that's all the more you can hope for.

The Ray Allen shot could not have been goaltending since there was no chance of it going in. That's according to the rules.

The Cavs should have closed this one out already, they blew 2 games in Boston thus far. Hopefully they get their shit together, and play all 48 minutes on sunday.

Noop 05-17-2008 12:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevew (Post 1729746)
The Cavs should have closed this one out already, they blew 2 games in Boston thus far. Hopefully they get their shit together, and play all 48 minutes on sunday.


Careful now... some people might think your talking out your bottom.

stevew 05-17-2008 01:06 PM

I think they blew 1 and 5, granted it's to be expected with our dumbass coach and questionable rotation.

Noop 05-18-2008 02:48 PM

Well looks like the Celtics came to play.

Noop 05-18-2008 02:55 PM

Perkins for the Celtics might need to tone it down a bit. He seems like he is more interested in fighting then he is in playing basketball.

Pumpy Tudors 05-18-2008 03:14 PM

I wish they had decided to play the basketball game later tonight. I like hockey more than I like basketball, so I'm watching that instead. I'd love to watch a game 7, though, and I'm missing it.

If game 5 is any indication, however, the final couple of minutes in Boston will take several hours, so I should have plenty of time to see the end of it once hockey's over.

Seriously, I do hope that I get to see the end of game 7, and I hope it's an entertaining game by that point.

SirFozzie 05-18-2008 04:37 PM

James and Pierce are going at it like 'Nique and Bird in game 7 so far.

The only question is can the Cavs have someone, anyone pick things up?

Noop 05-18-2008 04:56 PM

The Celtics have been in control this whole game and to be honest I would be surprised if they lost this game with 9:37 left to go in the 4th quarter.

molson 05-18-2008 05:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SirFozzie (Post 1730144)
James and Pierce are going at it like 'Nique and Bird in game 7 so far.



Lebron's missing WAY more shots than 'Nique did that game.

SirFozzie 05-18-2008 05:06 PM

Wow. Refs COMPLETELY missed it there. That was awful

Radii 05-18-2008 05:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noop (Post 1730147)
The Celtics have been in control this whole game and to be honest I would be surprised if they lost this game with 9:37 left to go in the 4th quarter.


even after Lebron hit those two three pointers I still have this same feeling.

SirFozzie 05-18-2008 05:15 PM

I get the same feeling Nique gave me way back when every time James has the ball.

molson 05-18-2008 05:19 PM

When did the Flagrant Foul rule rule change? I don't remember announcers constantly yelling about it until recently.

molson 05-18-2008 05:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Radii (Post 1730152)
even after Lebron hit those two three pointers I still have this same feeling.


Unfortunately, I'm getting the feeling the Celtics players feel that way too.

SirFozzie 05-18-2008 05:23 PM

If you told me P.J. Brown was going to take a key shot with just over a minute to play, I would tell you I want Doc Rivers fired... or beheaded. (ok, kidding about the beheading)

Radii 05-18-2008 05:24 PM

If the Cavs leave him in the game, I would be fouling Ben Wallace at every opportunity now.

SirFozzie 05-18-2008 05:30 PM

And now I see the difference between James and 'Nique (Not much, but a difference)

Noop 05-18-2008 05:31 PM

If LeBron and his teammates weren't complaining for the foul they might have been able to foul someone other then Ray Allen who is money at the line.

molson 05-18-2008 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stevew (Post 1729781)
I think they blew 1 and 5, granted it's to be expected with our dumbass coach and questionable rotation.


The Celtics blew games 4 and 6. But it looks the Cavs will blow more games in the end.

Noop 05-18-2008 05:31 PM

LeBron James is a way better player then Wilkins ever was or could be...

MrBug708 05-18-2008 05:33 PM

Great decision by Lebron

molson 05-18-2008 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noop (Post 1730171)
LeBron James is a way better player then Wilkins ever was or could be...


Very true, but I think there's been a little too much praise for him in a series where he's shooting 32%.

HE blew this series for Cleveland with his shitty shooting, and that's not the media line for whatever reason.

Noop 05-18-2008 05:36 PM

The Celtics are a team of fortune.

larrymcg421 05-18-2008 05:37 PM

Same decision he got criticized for last year against Detroit. The only difference is his guy made the shot this time.


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