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I'm pretty sure you don't want a point-by-point analysis of what is valid, semi-valid, way-off, without context, pot calling the kettle black etc. so I'll just leave it at suggesting you be more open & tolerant of views & opinions that differs from you; and many times honest people can just agree to disagree. |
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Same as above. |
After 8 years of having Obama misrepresented constantly, called the anti-Christ, and generally belittled, now I'm supposed to be the one to reconcile by pointing out the good things that Trump has done? Why is it on the Democrats to constantly be the ones to act with intelligence and conscience? At what point does the GOP take on ANY responsibility at all to act with good faith instead of just constant deflection in the name of power grabbing? Never?
Bullshit. I don't care if the current GOP limo'd 1 million dollars to my house, they can go fuck themselves as can their racist leader as can their followers and apologists. There is no apology, there is no compromise. There is no "good" that has come from it. They haven't gotten us into a nuclear war, though that looked pretty dicey for a few weeks there. They haven't directly caused my death, but they may be trying with this "let's open the economy back up" bullshit. Fucking bravo. |
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Enjoy your month, and if you find this place unhealthy for you then do whatever you need to be in a better place. But the point here is, I think that a lot of arguments made by others fit the same thing from a different perspective. A lot of the board generally don't think so because of groupthink, but then someone like me or Edward or whoever comes by who doesn't share your presumptions and thinks they're ridiculous. I.e., some people think racism is binary. Some people think about China/Mexico differently than you do. Etc. I know your posts well enough to say I don't think it's intentional either, but what your argument here really boils down to is 'I don't like people posting things that significantly differ from my view enough to not accept my core assumptions'. In which case, what's the point of a debate in the first place? Quote:
Yeah that's not at all what's happened on this board. More to the point, it's not about it being on anyone to reconcile. It's about being intellectually honest and not caricaturing people. Nobody is 100% bad or 100% good. That means there are bad things in the best of our leaders, and good things in the worst of them. You don't have to support them to recognize that, and it's very helpful to talk about things in a balanced way. Quote:
Again, the provable fact of criticism of Trump on a number of fronts over an extended period of time demonstrates this is false. |
The only issue is that when a Dem is in office the same Trumpists will be asked by people on the other side, "C'mon, say one thing good about Joe Blow and we'll get into this cycle" I'm not saying I agree but I can say that Trump has been good for Real Estate and he's been good Russia. He's been good for the rich and he's been good for racists. See it's easy.
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He's also GREAT at sowing discord.
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I don't see anything positive about Trump. Not one thing. I can safely say that anything that I feel that was remotely positive that has come from the administration during his time in office has been 100% a result of someone around him and not him directly. He has been good for the rich and very good for racists. He's been outstanding for divisiveness, because he has turned people against each other like no one yet. What I feel like this is, is: "You know that Hitler had some great ideas, but he just took it too far." |
The problem I have with stating the good things Trump has done is they are offset by the mountains of horrible shit he has done and the horrible human being he is.
It isn't a policy issue. it is a human decency issue and his lack of human decency spills over into every aspect of how he governs. |
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Ok, but he still put those people in those positions, or retained them if they were there before him. So it still reflects on him to a degree. Other than that, it sounds to me like a case of being blinded by animosity towards what he's done if you view it as 100% negative. That's just not reality. Even a stopped watch is right twice a day, and so on. |
He is a person wholly incapable of empathy or doing anything other than feeding his ego. Just because a couple of policy decisions happen to be things that I don't hate as a byproduct of that shouldn't cause me to give him any credit for it.
I just tend to avoid watching him or talking about him whenever I can, but to see that we need to agree on "the good things he's done" as some sort of basis for a common ground, respect, or debate is laughable. There are no good things, there are only happy accidents. |
To a point. How many times did we hear about how Obama lied. About health insurance. That one time. Before policy was written. And how that meant that he was worthless. As a person and a president.
Now we have something else entirely and it's just another day at the office and I'm the one getting called out for being mean by those very same people. I'm not talking about the board here, but more of a general view or approach from those I'm surrounded by. |
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Ok but one doesn't invalidate the other. I agree that Trump is a horrible human being and has done mountains of horrible things. 100% agree. That doesn't mean he hasn't also done good things from time to time. Both things not only can co-exist, but in fact it's quite common for them to do so within a single individual. All of us have them to some degree. |
Trump is going to be remembered by history as one of the worst Presidents in US history. In historian lists, he'll be with James Buchanan (who is down there for being incompetent not for anything disastrous he did - you know for the folks who are like name ONE thing worse than X, etc, etc), Andrew Johnson, etc. So all this name things you like he did is a bit ridiculous. Our President is incompetent and corrupt, tries to undermine the press, ratchets up racist rhetoric, and looks the other way when acts of overt racism (Charlottesville) happen. To believe he won't be in the bottom 5 going forward is just delusional.
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My take on it is that the good things done weren't out of a sense of purpose or planning. He'd happily reverse those things in a heartbeat if it would be something that he thinks would make him look good in that moment.
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If Trump were just a guy in my neighborhood and I knew all this about him,
he's a racist he brags about sexual assault he's been credibly accused of rape by his ex-wife he mocks the disabled he regularly attacks and demeans working women he lies constantly he steals from a charity he doesn't pay people that work for him he promotes conspiracy theories he rarely works but brags about how hard he works he tells everyone that he's an expert on every topic he defends and admires mass murderers he encourages his friends to physically assault people he doesn't like he fakes being committed to his religion etc. I would just consider him an asshole. I'd never play along if a neighbor said they would only take my criticisms seriously if I also presented a list of good qualities for this asshole. Trump is uniquely horrible as a human being and anything that attempts to gloss over that fact is dangerous. And before you say I hate all Republicans, I can speak well of Romney or DeWine or our county executive, and a number of others. But I'm not going to play a game of Ten Things I like About a Monster. |
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What Cartman said. Trump has never, and will never, do the right thing because it is the right thing to do. He will only do what he feels is best for him and if that means it is also beneficial for us as a nation that is a byproduct. |
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Today's a perfect example. Officially the WH is still recommending isolation and distancing until May 1, but Trump is tweet Liberate Michigan! and Liberate Minnesota! and Liberate Virginia! There is no plan, there are just impulses. |
He's just showing that it is possible to be all things to all people and not get held for any of it.
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Ruth Chris Steakhouse chain took 20 million of the bailout money set aside for small businesses
the money was blown through very quickly |
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monsters are cool. trump is not don't call trump a monster you insult dragons and mindflayers and beholders when you do the more you know... |
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This is why I'm always hesitant about letting the government spend a crap ton of money, especially with a President who sees oversight as a detriment. Stimulus checks are also apparently going to dead people as well. |
Sen. Loeffler says criticizing her for insider trading is socialist:
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Keep fucking that chicken. |
Brian Klaas on Twitter: "Watch this video of Merkel and compare it to Trump, who recently lamented that the virus has become so “brilliant” that antibiotics don’t work—against a virus. Via @BenjAlvarez1. https://t.co/awAsd6PjmN"
Here's a politician/'head of state' (i know she is not technically) actually using a press briefing to bring across information and explain goals/strategy/reasoning. Even throws in a shoutout agreeing to a local official not in her party. All in less than 2 minutes. 5 years ago i thought Merkel was boring, nowadays i wish the next chancellor will be equally boring if the alternative is the shitshow-populism that is plaguing not just the US .... |
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They keep making the socialism attack because it works. I think the reason that Elizabeth Warren scared people more than Bernie is that she is a committed capitalist. But she wants to make capitalism work for everyone. If the choice is between socialism and our current brand of corrupt capitalism, then even a solid liberal like me will pick corrupt capitalism. But if Americans are ever given a choice between functional capitalism and corrupt capitalism . . .? Well that will be a bigger revolution than anything Bernie could ever bring us. |
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And Grover Norquist tweeted that Manchin endorsing Biden is evidence that all the Dems are radicals. I love it when classic bands play their old hits. |
Biden can probably just take that Norquist claim and put it next to a Bernie bro claim saying #NeverBiden because he's a Republican just to show the ridiculousness of the extremes.
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#unfuckingbelievable
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Have we ever had a President call for a civil war?
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A lot of MAGA is built on this conservative myth of "I got my gun, my land, and my dog and I don't need anything else."
The virus has shown us that we are highly interconnected and that our actions both hurt and help others in ways it can be hard to fully grasp. That truth obliterates MAGA in a way that almost nothing else does. So it makes sense that Trump is going to start using language of civil war and violence and division. If we stop blaming "others" for our pain, and if we instead realize that we actually need each other, then MAGA dies. And Trump would prefer a civil war to that. |
basically, if I were in the GOP, things like this would scare me a hell of a lot more than whatever Biden does or does not do:
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There is nothing capitalist about our current system. Government propping up zombie companies by printing money and bailing out their mistakes. If companies are not allowed to fail, how is it any way capitalism? |
It is shitty broken capitalism, but it is still capitalism.
Which is why Warren scares them so much. She does not want to throw out capitalism. She wants to show Americans what it can really do. And THAT would be the real revolution. |
I tend to think Trump and the GOP leadership are aware of how long a shutdown is needed, and that's why ultimately the governors will decide. Come November, when it has cropped back up AND the economy is still reeling from round 1, the message will be "if we'd opened up the country on May 1st, we wouldn't be here! Everyone would be immune and we'd all be working!"
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So what? First, nobody can ever know for sure why another person does things. Neurological science has shown that we don't even know why we do things most of the time - our brains literally make up justifications for stuff subconcioiusly all the time. But also, the issue at hand wasn't 'how altruistic is Donald Trump'. That's where I'm saying emotionalism and animosity tends to cloud the issue. It's what good things has he done. Even if he did them for selfish reasons, or craven political ones, or whatever - if it was the right thing to do, and he did it, basic fairness requires that be recognized. I.e. if you think the justice reform was a good thing done for wrong reasons just to take a popular example - people don't get their sentences lengthened because Trump's motives were faulty. They get the same sentence whether he did it for the right reasons or not. If the new law is better than the old one, it's a good thing period. |
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agreed. It's only "Capitalism" when it's an anti-blue democrats are evil 'socialists' style of capitalism. Otherwise, it is absolutely not capitalism at all. |
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I disagree with this line of thinking. "A broken clock is right twice a day". Being right for the wrong reasons is useless, it leads nowhere positive. |
It would be helpful to understand your definition of capitalism. Always helpful to define terms instead of trying to guess your definitions.
No one I know is staying the US is 100% free-market capitalism. I think everyone concedes it's mixed. But this doesn't mean "there's nothing capitalist about our current system". |
The Trump Presidency – 2016
Capitalism wherein winners and losers are based on innovation, entrepreneurship, and no one gets given shit for free.
The gop changes the definition in times of crisis versus when things are flourishing to be able to better paint the Dems as evil socialists when they use socialism to float zombie companies and avoid cyclical cleansing. Btw I’m for it because I’m for bailing out some companies and social safety nets. As Ive always been on these boards, what I cannot stand is the hypocrisy the right shows when theyre socialists when it fits them but its we dont wanna be the Franch, when sucker voters get sound bited to vote against the evil welfare moms and unemployed drug addicts that are abusing your hard earned tax dollars. And theyre coming to take your guns and hate Christmas and murder babies and want Mexico and Canada to own you!!!! Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
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So the person who gets a more fair sentence gained nothing because Trump had the wrong motive? That's useless to them? I'd wager they'd say otherwhise. I mean, nobody has perfectly pure motives for doing anything, so that means everything is useless. Nihilism FTW!! |
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That's a weird way to look at things. Are you saying someone that actually does things properly more consistently would have come to the wrong conclusion here? Even if so, wouldn't it lead to the right conclusion more often? I don't know, go ahead and be happy your watch got noon and midnight right every day. I'll keep my admittedly flawed Timex and make it to the rest of my meetings more or less on time. |
You're really beating this to death. Motivations matter. That's why you can be sympathetic to a character like Walter White and then grow to hate someone like Mother Teresa over time. The "why" of decision making most certainly matters.
If you're asserting that Trump is actually some puppy dog or something, come out and say it. |
Capitalism is private ownership in trade and industry. We don't have that. Large companies are essentially state-supported. Just that we set it up so the state doesn't get a cut of the profits.
It's socialism but for wealthy people. |
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This SCARES the hell out of me. Those kids are NOT wearing MASKS and are NOT SIX feet apart. They are SELFISH brats who are putting EVERYONE around them in MORTAL DANGER. |
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Mother Teresa wasn't all that great Penn And Teller BS Christopher Hitchens on Mother Teresa - YouTube |
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No, and yes. I think both of these questions are irrelevant to what I've said. I mean, I've stated repeatedly I think Trump is a terrible leader, president, and person and that I didn't and won't vote for him, etc. It would obviously be much better to have a POTUS who makes more good decisions, and they are rare occasions with Trump. That has nothing to do with how we should treat the good decisions he does make. They are totally separate issues. Quote:
I'm doing it because consistency matters. Without them you don't have guardrails and can just claim whatever you feel at the moment - ideologies, worldviews, philosophies whether political or otherwhise require consistent principles or incoherency destroys them. And I totally agree motivations matter. Nothing I've said makes it not matter. What I've said is, a bad motivation does not make an objectively good decision no longer a good one or no longer beneficial to those on the receiving end. |
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Let's have a more structured definition of capitalism. I get the wiki is not necessarily the bible but definitely a good starting point. Preamble on the definition. Capitalism - Wikipedia Quote:
Some familiar themes from this board. Quote:
A little more on mixed ... Quote:
So my conclusion is sure the US doesn't have pure capitalism (so what?). But it does have mixed capitalism. So one can complain about the mix but let's not say arbitrarily say "there's nothing capitalist about our system today". |
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But they aren't good decisions. They are good results. If I decide to get plastered, run a red light, and run over a serial killer, that's a good result, but not a good decision. And while you might note it, you shouldn't celebrate or laud it. |
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That's not even remotely comparable. In that case you make three bad decisions to get a good result. In the case I'm talking about, the decision is to promote and sign a good law. There's no bad decision in there. |
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Actually, it was the use of pastels. |
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