Wow that's pretty damn harsh. I don't think it's really anyone's place to decide if it's logical to have a child, regardless if the child is mentally challenged. It's one thing to be pro-life or pro-choice, but just being a pro-dumbass like your comment, is just wrong. I'm pro-choice, but I wouldn't ever judge someone because they choose to have a child that they know will be difficult to raise. It's a choice I personally hope I will never have to make.

Handicapped children are paid for by us. They are a burden on society. Unless you are wealthy and can cover all the expense with having a child that is handicapped, it does indeed effect all of us.

I'm not saying we should force people to have an abortion. I'm saying, I have a right to not vote for them.

If you know that your child is going to be handicapped and you have it anyway, that is not logical. In fact it is stupid.

This lady would force woman who are raped to have the child.

This lady would force an incestious baby to be born.

This lady would force everyone who had a down's syndrome baby to carry it to term.

I repeat again, 97% of people terminate the baby. I want our leaders to use sense, not emotion or religous beliefs in their decisions.

So taking your "logic" if someone becomes handicapped they should be taken out back and shot?

No, again you are missing the point.

She had a test to see if a fetus had a genetic problem. It did and she choose to do nothing about it. That is the issue.


If you had a child who was handicapped and you didn't know about, that is 100% completely different.
If you had a child who became handicapped later in life, of course that is again different.

How is knowing your child may have a genetic problem, different from you or someone you love coming down with a handicap?

If you believe the fetus is a person, then what? Basically, astrofan takes the recently handicapped out back and shoots them for being a burden on society.

Frankly, children of poor people are a burden on society as well. We should just abort all of them too.

Doing some research it appears that detection rates of Down Syndrome is about 60-80% I can't find any numbers of false positives though.

One other thing to mention. It's not like Palin is starting the campaign in 2007 and has a year and a half left. She's basically on the campaign trail for two months. Then, she's either at a home in Washington or back in Alaska. Given she has the baby with her and her husband is there for support, I don't see how two months of campaigning with a strong support network (and the baby with you) is going to seriously impact the baby's future.

As many of you know, all that baby's doing over the next two months is eating, pooping and sleeping (with some crying thrown in for effect ;) ). As long as she is able to be near the baby, breastfeed if she chooses and spend quality time with him every day, I don't see how this child suffers the next two months.

Before you quote BS numbers do better research. The numbers you posted are for screenings not an amniocentesis.

http://my.clevelandclinic.org/health...ocentesis.aspx

How accurate is amniocentesis?

The accuracy of amniocentesis is about 99.4%.
Amniocentesis may occasionally be unsuccessful because of technical problems, such as an inability to collect an adequate amount of amniotic fluid or failure of the collected cells to grow when cultured.

My wife is 37 and we had this procedure done about a year ago. We read up on all of this stuff and went to genetic counciling.

Yep its a great idea to fly your child around everyday! Excellent idea. At five to seven months a child rolls over for the first time, is very much into his surroundings. They do quite a bit more then eat and poop.

First you claim my numbers are BS, and then you say my numbers are for screenings. Which one is it? I personally know very little about this testing, those were some numbers I found. Might as well just kill off anyone that can't contribute to society. So what do you do for a living?...:cool:

Oh please. A fetus is not a person. Its a glob of cells. Until brain activity takes place its just a growth inside of a woman. There really isn't a debate on this if you use any type of logic or reason.

If you want to go down the "soul" route. If someone kills a "baby" and if you believe in the whole christian god/heaven thing. The baby would goto heaven anyway, so what is the big deal. It would just be the people who were aborting the baby that would be punished for their sins.

Oh hey look I actually found something more useful than your numbers, false positive numbers.

From this site Down's Syndrome: Prenatal Screening and Your Baby

The bold was my doing to prove a point.

A screening is a blood test. I linked to the information for you if you are interested.


The amniocentesis is a needle that they stick into the amniotic sack and get amniotic fluid. They can then look at the actual chromosomes and see if there is an extra one. In the case of a down syndrome baby, there is one extra. They can screen for other birth defects as well.

The success rate on this test is well above 99%. The results aren't wrong, but sometimes they test can fail totally if they don't get enough fluid or your doctor is incompetent.

I guess it all depends on where you get your information, since what I've now found contradicts what you claim. :confused:

This is almost completely contradictory to what I read on about 10 other sites and what our genetic councilor told us.

don't forget stupid people. I guess we should have mandatory IQ tests and only keep enough stupid people to do menial labor and shoot the rest.

Sure was nice of SFL Cat to give you guys something to latch onto like this. I was kind of hoping he'd come right out and say he hates niggers or something.

Christ, guys, bastardizing Hussein Obama's name into something resembling a terrorist's name is not racist, unless that's just what you choose to see in SFL Cat's posts.

I fail to see how that post was targeting the fact that Obama is half black. It was using the sililarity of his name to -- ah, forget it. You read what you want to read. Just because it wasn't funny doesn't make it evidence of Klan sympathy, is all I'm sayin.

Down syndrome: Tests and diagnosis - MayoClinic.com

Blood tests. Results of the ultrasound are paired with blood tests that measure levels of pregnancy-associated plasma protein-A (PAPP-A) and a hormone known as human chorionic gonadotropin (HCG). Abnormal levels of PAPP-A and HCG may indicate a problem with the baby.
When this two-step screening is done during the 11th week of pregnancy, researchers say it can identify 87 percent of babies with Down syndrome. By 13 weeks, accuracy of the two-step screening approach drops to 82 percent.

I can only assume that the numbers from that UK site are for tests such as these. (basic blood tests)



If your screening tests are positive or worrisome or you're at high risk of having a baby with Down syndrome, you might consider further testing to confirm the diagnosis. Diagnostic tests that can identify Down syndrome include:

Amniocentesis. A sample of the amniotic fluid surrounding the fetus is withdrawn through a needle inserted into the mother's uterus. This sample is then used to analyze the chromosomes of the fetus. Doctors usually perform this test after 15 weeks of gestation. The test carries a risk of miscarriage of one in 200.
Chorionic villus sampling (CVS). Cells taken from the mother's placenta can be used to analyze the fetal chromosomes. Typically performed between the ninth and 14th week of pregnancy, this test carries a risk of miscarriage of one in 100.
Percutaneous umbilical blood sampling (PUBS). Blood is taken from a vein in the umbilical cord and examined for chromosomal defects. Doctors generally perform this test after 18 weeks of gestation. This test carries a greater risk of miscarriage than does amniocentesis or chorionic villus sampling. Generally, this test is only done when speed of diagnosis is essential.

Each of these three tests is 98 percent to 99 percent accurate in diagnosing Down syndrome before birth.

I think the mayoclinic is one of the top rated medical facilities in the world. I think we can all agree that information from their site is very reliable.

After rereading this. Those numbers you see on the chart are for the blood tests only. If you go on to read, the only option to be sure is Amniocentesis. But, there are chances you could miscarry, so some woman don't choose it.

All of this is not the point anyway. Now that we have determined that you can reliably detect if your baby is going to be mentally handicapped, I think we can debate the point of keeping it.

I could care less what any person normally does in this situation. You guys do what you want.

I just don't want my president or vp or senator or governor to make that choice. I think its foolish and not logical. So I would not want them representing me or making decisions for my country.

maybe not black/white racist, but anti-arab racist...sure it was. maybe it's all about your sensitivity, and the belief that if he's so quick to say that on a messageboard what is the rest that he's not saying, or hasn't said yet, what he has said just being the tip of the iceberg.

I agree with you that it is foolish and not logical for them to make the choice for me in this case, and honestly I don't know Palin's background on any issues yet, but just because someone makes a choice in their own life doesn't mean they expect to make that choice in all other people's lives.

Fortunately the decision to have a child isn't always logical in the first place, regardless of if there are complications. Not everything is cut and dry black and white logic when it comes to life, this is one of the special things that makes us human. We can actually cognitively think about things and decide what we want to do. There are always other factors then logic when it comes to life.

Umm.

Do you know anyone with Down's Syndrome? These are people, astrosfan, not numbers.

Of course there are additional challenges with raising any disabled child (I'm thankful to only know this second-hand, as both my girls are healthy), but there are also rewards that, for some parents I've spoken to, balance out or even outweigh the challenges.

I know a girl with microcephaly, used to work with her. What an absolute joy to know her! She just sent me a happy July 4th card she had made from construction paper and decorated two weeks ago, and I cherish it. One thing her father told me once when we were discussing her condition that's stuck with me ever since: "Karrie has never had a bad day like so called normal kids might. And she keeps us [her mom and dad] from having bad days, too."

I think your above quoted post is reprehensible, to be honest, af64. Or maybe just ingorant, if you've never had the chance to know and interact with people with "diabilities," maybe you can't be expected to have perspective on the issue.

That's asshattery on the level of that Kansas church that protests the funerals of soldiers killed in action.

Yup, better off to have killed the Downs kid, and then go run for VP on a Pro-Life platform!

Oh my.

I thought it was funny, because he started to add the last part of his name. I've never heard that before in a serious conversation even if he didn't sound all there. It was a disasterous interview and I find most disasterous things funny.


+1

This is the first time I opened this thread and the last.

This sounds like something out of Germany circa 1938.

:popcorn:

This is getting ugly

Now you're reminding me of... who was it? molson? A few pages back said he liked conservatives better because they try to you into their point of view, whereas libs look down their nose at you for not seeing that their way is correct (I know, I know, I'm wayyyyyy paraphrasing).

Anyway, I know you're self-described as conservative-leaning but in this case you're playing the role of the know-what's-best-for-everyone-better-than-they-know-themselves asshat.




Thing is, I don't say that your views are wrong for you and your wife. I'm no militant pro-lifer myself. I paid for my girlfriend to have an abortion when I was young (though I wish I could have that to do over again).

But you are coming down like a voice from on high, preaching about what is right and logical for other people to do.

You, sir, are no judge of my moral choices.

I think McCain is trying to cut it two ways. With centrists, particularly women, he is trying to appeal to them by bringing a new sort of candidate than the GOP usually sends out there. There aren't that many votes to swing his way--most of the country decided months ago. He's going for what he can with undecideds, but I don't think that was his primary focus.

His second way and probably the one he is more focused on was revitalizing the conservative right. And it's not because he fears anyone on the conservative right is going to vote for Obama. They won't and he knows it. No, his concern is being sure they vote, period. Because if they go to the polls, they are voting for him. Republicans tend to be more faithful and consistent voters as a bloc, from what I have always heard. Democrats are passionate, but there is a tendency toward voting apathy, partially because a powerful voting bloc among liberals is the younger set, which tend to take voting and politics less seriously.

So McCain may be making this choice to be sure that the consistent right wing voters out there will go to the polls. And to be sure to get more fundraising from the conservative right to attempt to appeal to the few undecideds out there.

Really, his most important point with this selection may already be complete--in one move, he essentially eliminated the talk about Obama's speech and refocused media attention on the GOP.

You're dead on that it is one of the more intriguing political moves I have seen, ever really. It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

I present to you, astrofan's choice for VP!



SPOCK FOR VICE PRESIDENT!!!

If this is such an issue for you, I am curious if you know the child-rearing decisions of the other candidates, all of whom, I believe, have families as well, and did so as they began and advanced in their political careers?

Or are you so entrenched in the "woman should be in the kitchen" mentality that this is purely a misogynistic stance for you that only applies to Palin?

I stayed out of the SFL Cat stuff because I thought what he said was pretty damn stupid.

That said, I have thought all along that you guys have come out far too much over the top, considering this IS a message board as you say. We don't really know anything about SFL Cat, and my initial impression is that what he said was made as a dumb decision to crack a joke, or to maybe hurt Obama's chances at electability, not some overt form of intentional racism. Now, the first two are certainly no great things either, but they aren't quite as serious as what you guys have charged him, and I don't honestly think you have enough information on him to make this accusation in anything but an extremely careless and dangerous way, especially with the way these political threads go.

SFL Cat secured for himself a position in the Hall of Stupidity with his stubborn defense of his joke, but that deosn't mean those of you who leaped on the race card were right to villify him to the extent that you did.

I'm working, going to graduate school, and will make a career out of working with predominantly special education kids, their families and teachers. Every child, whether they are your typical "normal" kid, have down syndrome or any other disability has different challenges and rewards involved with raising or interacting with them. However, they are all precious and a gift.

The mother of a child I work with has twins who both have moderate to major autism. The mother works all night while they sleep, drops her kids off at school, sleeps while they are in school and takes care of them after school. When she picks up the twins after school and they come running to her to give her a big hug, she lights up like most people rarely do. This is the same story in most of my experiences with the parents. In fact, I'd say that the different and yes sometimes greater set of challenges some of these wonderful children present could even cause the parents to appreciate and cherish their child even more.

Astrosfan, I don't know if it is due to lack of experience or exposure to children with disabilities, but if so, I would highly recommend changing that before voicing opinions on something you seem to have little exposure to.

Having learned more about her I don't see that she has much appeal for the centre - perhaps a few votes simply because she's a woman - but I certainly agree about her ensuring the right vote for McCain. That's why I first thought it to be a clever selection - he appeals to the right of the party while maintaining his image as a maverick (by selecting someone no one expected).

But there is an interesting poll out today that reports that the choice has far more approval from men than women. I'm not quite sure yet what to make of that but I do recall it was also true of Margaret Thatcher.


He certainly achieved that but I think it may be at some serious cost. I was watching the discussion programs on CNN and Fox and it was interesting to watch the GOP commentators, who have clearly been thrown by this (the Dem commentators much more comfortable with it), and were not sure of the tack to take. They were even more evasive than usual. Larry King cut to the chase with something like this: "is she the best Republican politician to become Commander in Chief if something happens to McCain". One GOP campaign advisor complained "you keep asking that". I was sorry King wasn't sufficiently uncivil to reply "Yes, but you haven't answered it yet" as she went on explaining how running a village of 9,000 people was ideal preparation for dealing with Putin and Osama bin Laden (it must be an interesting village :) ).

The problem is that the two big sticks that have been used to batter Obama and have lifted the McCain campaign have been seriously compromised - Obama's inexperience and the "who the hell is this guy" question. Well, McCain has now given the Democrats the perfect answer to these - "John McCain himself clearly doesn't think these are important."

I don't see the Dems using her inexperience directly but to deflect attacks on Obama.

So I'm not sure this is the great move it originally seemed. Geraldo illustrated this for me when he enthused that now the debate could cut to the chase and deal with the real issues such as the economy, global warming, energy crisis etc. But does McCain want the debate to turn to these? I think not. He would surely be much happier to keep the debate about Obama's lack of foreign affairs experience and his relatively unknown background which has had such success.


It is fascinating as to where it will go from here. As a non-American I must admit there's some of the appeal of watching a train wreck but my PVR has nearly as many political programs set for recording as soccer games :)

Well said, sir.

The problem with using Palin to blunt Obama's speech talk is that it's so shortsighted. 538 was discussing this and pointed out that convention bounces go away on their own.

I also think this pick shows the danger of allowing advisors to be too strong, let's call it the Marc Penn effect. McCain is the underdog and isn't expected to win. Certainly his advisors would like him to win, but they won't suffer professionally if he loses. What they need to do to boost their profile in the party and ensure future work isn't necessarily what's best for McCain. Choosing Palin to control a day of media coverage seems a perfect example of taking a big risk that boosts profile among Republicans but could backfire terribly for McCain.

So McCain and Palin are going to the Gulf region today to be briefed on Gustav. That's, IMO, a pretty stupid move, but please don't let McCain do this.

Great Post :)

You aren't killing a child. If the child was born with downs then of course you wouldn't lill them. To abort the fetus at 15 to 20 months, is far from killing a child or human. So your post is pretty dumb.

Aborting a fetus at 15 to 20 months is scrapping a blob of cells because they were the right material to build with.

There's a touch of self-righteousness there that I'm sure you're not aware of, Danny. Had your experiences been with young women whose lives have been destroyed by being unable to deal with the extreme demands of a disabled child, turned to drugs and repeatedly attempted suicide you too might have a different view on this.

I'm sure everything you describe, Danny, is quite correct but it is only one man's experience and there are many experiences to be dealt with. For that we need a far more flexible approach than what you propose.

Wow, you're a fucking idiot.

Wow. This has gotten nasty.

Since its already stated I think Obama will not win because he is black.

As for SFL Cat, his posts are very disappointing and the fact some if you can defend him is disappointing as well.

It's not self-righteousness! My sister has a son that is suffering from cerebral palsy and severe autism. It's a tough, tough, tough situation, but she deals with it by being absolutely selfless and amazing for her child. If other women are turning to drugs and committing suicide, blame them, not those who would offer knowledge, help and guidance.

Nice reply sheep. You let the government make your choices for you. If you are calling me an idiot because of the stats of the procedure. Then you are calling the doctors at the mayo clinic idiots.

That illustrates my point, Danny. That is the self-righteous, even sanctimonious, tone I'm referring to.


You see, you're not offering help and guidance you're offering condemnation.

I just reread the posts above. This is why I stay out of political threads. Everyone here looks to call someone a racist, an idiot, a sheep or 100 other insulting type of phrases or names.

No thanks, I'm not getting drawn into this. Intellegent debate on this topic doesn't work here. I'm going back to the normal sports and video game threads.

Carry on everyone and good wishes to all of you.

I'm calling you an idiot because you're making a political issue out of someone giving birth to a special needs child.

This is one of my big pet peeves. Seriously, if you're going to leave the thread, because you can't handle it, then just leave the thread. Don't make bullshit posts like this so you get the last word in and leave. That is nothing more than trolling.

Also, you're an idiot.