If you listen to the full clip of his lipstick/old fish comments yesterday, you'll notice him stuttering quite a bit. It's a great example of what you're talking about.

But wait, I thought the lipstick/pig stuff was a pre-planned attack.

What?

I was raised Lutheran and Martin Luther was a nutball by the end of his life. That doesn't mean my goal is to be a nutball or that the Lutheran religion is suddenly void of any good ideas or teachings.

I heard it reported this morning that it was scripted...attack or not.

Point being, as Vegas Vic mentioned, Obama doesn't do nearly as well without a teleprompter in front of him, script or no script. There's a lot more pauses and rough patches in his speaking. McCain does much better when he isn't in front of a teleprompter.

I'll agree that the democrats have a perceived Hollywood problem, but I honestly don't know if makes any material difference in the election. The folks that boycott hollyweird aren't sitting on the fence in the first place.

I'm still waiting for the Hollywood wackos who said they'd move out of the country in 2004 if Bush won to actually leave the country.

If all the conservatives who promised to leave the country when Clinton got elected actually did leave, then Bush wouldn't have been elected in the first place.

obviously Larry, these 2 are rolling averages :)

Part of me wants to break out the stats to show that you're a LIAR.

there are stats on people who said they'd move if one person one or lost? Wow, either it's a really small sample size or it's a load of crap on both sides. Shit, I mightve said it over dinner at some point over the last 10 years. It's such a red herring to throw out there but unfortunately since it seems things are treading in a gutter it'd be par for the course for the campaigns, the path to the white house.

Y'know to discuss with MBBF, since he's begun to speak intelligently ;) It seems that the right's move right now is to lay the mines out there, even the small ones and then throw gasoline on the tiny explosion once it's sprung. As Jon would say, it's smart. I hate it and find it disgusting when either side does it but it works with most Americans.

It doesnt change the meat of the things I want to see moved forward which is exposure of lying and hypocrisy whenever it exists or occurs and I wont list them all but boy the bucket is chock full.

The problem is, mainstream America seems to get spun and not pay attention to the exposures and just believes the lies that are repeatedly propogated even when theyre debunked, Like Cheney did to perfection. Its a shame and makes me want to vomit daily.

First of all, it was a joke ("OBVIOUSLY").

Also, I'd love to see how you could come up with stats to prove anything? Do you know how many conservatives said that? Seems to be that would need to be known before you could prove the statement to be incorrect. I mean, if just a few hundred from Florida said it at some point, then the statement is true. So let me know when you've interviewed every conservative in Florida.

I thought the reference would be obvious, but I was making fun of people who ran out for the stats when that Republican said that Palin got more votes for mayor than Biden did for president.

Okay, but the difference is you can break out stats to show the Palin-Biden comment was incorrect. You cannot do that for my comment. Not to mention the fact that people ont he right believed the Palin-Biden comment, meaning it deserved to be proven wrong.

Wow, I really wish you would quit with the analogies.

Fixed. Oh yeah I went there! :p

And I'm keeping the typo in, so suck it!

That is probably true. I have more distaste for the celebrity who thinks they should get a national stage to talk politics than I have for the candidate they endorse.

I don't really have a problem with that. They already have the national stage, and I admire someone for talking about what they believe in more than who designed their dress or tux. I would probably do the same.

IMO, 75% of celebrity endorsements are based on one of two things:

1. Guilt for being successful and wishing to show they still care about "the common man" as they go from party to part in their limo.
2. PR calculation knowing that being for a left-leaning candidate will help their status in Hollywood for future gigs.

So, I wouldn't get too carried away with the "I admire someone for talking about what they believe in" when talking about the Hollywood crowd.

This is one silver lining I'm actually happy about - all 4 on the tickets seem like genuinely decent people, politics aside. I didn't always feel that last couple elections with guys like Cheney and Kerry.

I can say that about 3 out of 4 but not one of them.

SI

I think you're giving the average Hollywood celebrity wayyyyy too much intellectual credit. These people, with a few exceptions I'm sure, are the equivalent of a 12y/o in their political knowledge and beliefs.

Where do Aahnold, Fred Thompson, Reagan, Sony Bono, Charlton Heston, Clint Eastwood, Robert Duvall, Gerald Macreany, et. al. fit?

Not sure how making a statement on a message board is getting "carried away". Also, I disagree with your reasoning for the endorsements. I simply think artistic people tend to be more liberal, and thus people in Hollywood end up supporting liberal candidates.

However, the point is I'd prefer a celebrity to talk about something that is important rather than the standard gossip/fashion/salary crap we usually get. And that goes for people like Charlton Heston, Fred Thompson, Arnold Schwarzeneggar, and Jon Voight as well.

But in general they can probably speak more intelligently about who designed their dress or tux. I guess I'd like to look for places where I can get some decent information and don't care to get it from random celebrities with unknown qualifications and nobody there to challenge them.

The other side of this is the Tom Cruise effect. It is harder to enjoy the work of someone who shows themselves to be a complete whackadoo.

Except that if it was written originally here without a typo, as governor instead of mayor, then it was correct all along. Palin did receive more votes for governor than Biden got in his brief run in 2008.

God forbid, these guys are (gasp) actually Americans that are doing the same thing we are but on a bigger stage.

But it wasn't a typo. The whole thing started as a response to the comments made at the convention, where mayor was used. Molson said it was obviously a joke and called people stupid for thinking otherwise, but some conservatives believed it, and Vegas Vic even used it here to make a point.

If you're making the statement, you're the one that should prove that it's accurate.

The fact that one has easily attaintable numbers and one doesn't is meaningless if both are jokes. And your statement surely has specific numbers too, they would just take more work to find.

And still, Biden got 0 votes for president.

Lord knows that I can't find the original sidebar on that, even skimming back through something like 60 pages in the thread, but best I can recall is that:

-- the original reference must have gone right by me (if there was one before VV got involved in that portion). Or else I picked up on it when VV referenced Molson saying something about it and attributed the original comment to VV all along.

-- VV and I briefly discussed (or me & someone in the thread) that it was accurate as "governor" instead of "mayor" (which was how I had read it from the beginning). And that left me with the impression that it was a typo from the get-go.

The reason I don't think it was a typo (at the convention) is that it was in direct response to the Obama campaign's mocking of the size of the town she was mayor of. That mocking was a theme of much of the speaches, including the "you know, except with actual responsibilites" line.

The fact that the the joke so clearly contradicts the numbers (if you consider votes for nominee a vote for president), clearly tells me that it was a joke.

But hey, I'm wrong at least half the time, if not more (unlike liberals in this thread).

Actually, I was involved in that too, and agreed with you that it was probably a typo. However, what I said was that it was a typo from the person who originally distributed the talking point, not from the person who originally posted it here. It was clearly said as Mayor at the convention.

George Clooney for President!

re: the whole pig & lipstick thing (which to be honest has pretty much flown past me as anything other than a quick clip, headlines online & a sidebar issue here -- too many "have-to-deal-with-right-now" items in my life for the past few days to have paid much attention to pigs, lipstick, or anything that didn't involve an immediate threat to my health, welfare, or family)

-- It seemed obvious to me from the delivery & the response that it got at the time that this was anything other than an attempt to be clever & play to the room by Obama. I border on being flabbergasted that anyone even tries to deny that.

-- It was, at worst, an okay line to use as a pointed jab to entertain the crowd in my mind except that he didn't anticipate how it could be used against him. Personally I'd say no harm no foul in playing to your crowd as long as they're the only people who hear it. It's the last bit that creates a problem here (and having an opponent smart enough to make use of bulletin board material when it's offered).

-- How really outraged is the average member of the McCain/Palin campaign about it? Little to none would be my strong belief. But if there's mileage to be had from pretending to be, seems beyond stupid not to make the effort and get whatever benefit from it they can.

-- How really angry is the average GOP voter? Madder than the presumably thicker-skinned candidates/campaign veterans themselves would be my estimate. A case of "don't you talk about my {insert person with a relationship here}" sort of mad. I mean, a person can trashtalk their own relatives but if you do it then there's a risk you'll piss them off, even if you said the exact same thing. That's pretty knee jerk stuff but easily predictable too.

And it all leads me back to something I've wondered about from the early stages of the campaign: the quality/skill of Obama's handlers. Little things like this make me wonder whether he's slipping out of their grasp & making mistakes on his own or if they're truly clueless enough not to have anticipated how something like this could backfire.

I mean, they were capable of knocking off Hillary so there had to be some ability there somewhere no matter how much she may have mishandled her own campaign during the primaries. So why all of sudden do we get a goof like this one? Has he had any significant organizational changes that I've missed? Somebody leave, get fired, get replaced? Has the candidate gotten a little too comfortable with the spotlight & simply stopped taking advice from his own people and decided he can wing it on his own?

New CNN/Time polls:

Michigan: Obama 49 McCain 45
Virginia: McCain 50 Obama 46
Missouri: McCain 50 Obama 45
New Hampshire: Obama 51 McCain 45

CNN Political Ticker: All politics, all the time CNN battleground polls « - Blogs from CNN.com

And see, I don't think I ever realized it was even a line from the convention until it came up here on page whatevertheheck we're up to. The first time I remember seeing/hearing it was when it came up here back everhowmany pages ago.

Stipulate that I'm innocent of any attempt spin on this sidebar, and I'll enter a nolo plea for having taken the source/context wrong for the comment from the get go.

Chris Matthews is killin' Mary Fallin (R) from Oklahoma. She tried to say that 'Obama's rotting fish comment' is targeted at McCain as him being an old fish and you shouldve seen Matthews reaction. boy does she look silly right now. She then cited Clinton as being against the 'bullying' and Matthews read her Clinton's quote to the contrary today. He is making her look like such a hypocrite....and good. Hypocrisy, no matter where, needs exposure.....

and now I saw the whole clip and he was obviously, IMO, referencing that change can be called many things but in this case, 'you can slap lipstick on a pig and its still a pig, but its still a pig' was in reference to the word change....

but I aagree with many, including Matthews, that this 'sideshow' has beomce quite the distraction and gotten more mileage than its worth. Kudos to the GOP.

Rasmussen Reports™: The most comprehensive public opinion coverage ever provided for a presidential election.

Rasmussen has McCain leading Obama 49-47 in New Mexico. The last Rasmussen poll (8/20) had it at Obama 47 McCain 41.

Polling is definitely looking good for McCain right now, but it'll be interesting to see if this is convention bounce or if it has any staying power.

You agree with a talk show host who calls the issue a "sideshow" and yet spends precious minutes of airtime talking about it? Isn't Matthews being more than a bit hypocritical?

sure but as he said on Morning Joe this morning, ALL cable news is a 500lb guy looking for a 100lb burrow. Its 100% consistent with what I ssaid a few pages ago...TV news has a bias...a bias for RATINGS and if its the issue du jour, he has to ride that...You gotta ride it till the next burrow comes along to relieve the first one. Disgusting and reflective of the state of America but very very true, IMO.

My own suspicion is that stuff like this are people just moving themselves from "undecided" (whether they'll vote or not moreso than who they'll vote for) to the camp they were in all along.

And with that, Matthews will probably draw the ire of 500 pound voters on both ends of the political spectrum ;)

i hope theyre taping.

I don't think that's it, because the undecideds have stayed pretty much the same (ranging between 4-6%). McCain is clearly taking from Obama's numbers. We'll see if it holds.

{scratches head}
{looks at most recent polling post again}


Umm ... Obama had 47% on 8/20, he has 47% now. What did McCain take from his numbers?

Or were you talking generally/nationally, instead of just the New Mexico numbers (which I thought you were initially commenting on since your post I replied to was immediately after the NM numbers were posted).

The polls have a margin of error of 2-5%. It doesn't show any real movement.

...and theyre rolling averages.

Well, this is interesting. :popcorn:

Biden: Hillary May Have Been Better VP Pick « FOX Embeds « FOXNews.com

Early indicator that Biden drops out and Hillary takes his place?

They have been averaging an even campaign for about a month now.

Easily amused, I see.

I can't imagine Hillary would be dumb enough to take the spot now. She's going to do just enough to stay in the good graces of the Dem masses and otherwise hope to run again in four years either against Palin or some other GOP'er (because I don't see McCain seeking a second term).

Pretty good foot in mouth from Biden though.

at least he put a disclaimer on his post with the popcorn guy...I wish their was a spin doctor emoticon.

Much ado about nothing. But hey, that's Fox "Fair and Balanced" News.

Then why would Biden publically admit he might not have been the best choice for Veep? Surely the disconnect between brain and mouth isn't that great. :)

Maybe you Fox-phobes will like this link better

CNN Political Ticker: All politics, all the time Blog Archive - Biden: Hillary might have been better VP pick « - Blogs from CNN.com

He did it so SFLCat's around the world could post it on their favorite message boards.

Well then...THANKS JOE!!!! :D

It's good to know that no one has ever complemented or flattered someone without being 100% sincere.

Thanks. I love your bipartisan approach to politics today.

Yeah I meant nationally. But even in New Mexico, I doubt all 8% of that is from undecideds. I think he picked up some undecideds and stole some from Obama. Nationally it appears to be mostly the latter taking place, but who knows what it could be in New Mexico.

I am wondering if McCain's bounce is coming bigger in red states than in battleground states (the Palin factor). This would explain the massive change in the NC numbers, but not such a wide change elsewhere. For instance, Florida is curiously dead even.

You gotta give spinsters like SFLCat credit, though. Spinning is a tough job. You twist and turn an issue and eat a lot of popcorn afterwards.:D

Actually, I tried to find a link for this at MSNBC, but they didn't have anything about it on the web site.

Do you seriously think you wouldn't have scrambled to FOFC to tell all of us how Palin said that there's a more qualified VP out there than her? Seriously?

Uh no, don't think I would've. Not that enamored with the woman. Don't go out and try to find an issue where someone gives another a genuine complement and try to spin it to say "wrong pick." That's silly.

because you took it and spun it...like the lipstick shit.

Maybe it's just me, but Rasmussen seems to be saying two different things in that link. The chart shows Obama with a 47-41 lead in August, but the article says he had a 48-44 lead.

By asking if this could be a set-up for Biden withdrawing allowing Obama to name Hillary as his new Veep choice?

not in that context. Read the damn article, He was being complimentary to her! SFL is just not being an honest person, a spin doctor and I'm sorry, but I hold honesty and truthfulness to a high accord and he obviously doesnt and I think he is nothing more than a troll. Ive at least seen MBBF thaw out and now look, were having healthy debates, but since SFL got smacked down about 15 pages ago and said he'd seen the light and would try to have intelligent banter he has done nothing but spout drivel and propogate the lies and mistruths and ignores intelligent challenges to instead lie on the side of garbage rhetoric. Truly a shame.

SFL - post 4118 showed through.

Based on what was in the story, no. There's no hint that it's anything other than flattery.

Because he said she was a as qualified candidate as a rebuttal to an audience member trying to put her down? SPIN.

If that was the point he was trying to make, then he made it very poorly.

LOL. SFL is who he is. I actually think its pretty funny. He's probably a secret Obama supporter that likes to stir up trouble. :eek:

If it's any consolation, after breaking the scandal about John Edwards, I hear the National Enquirer is ready to launch its expose on the Palin family warts.

Anyone can tell he was clearly just defending Clinton. It certainly wasn't the best choice of words and may be used as a soundbite later. Still, it's pretty stupid to suggest this is some sort of setup for him to withdraw and for Hillary to slide in.

...and Im not for that either. and had you made the post about Biden's quote and said instead of, "this is interesting, blah blah blah" something along the lines of, "Biden's compliment could get him in trouble later" it wouldve looked like you were coming across as truly looking for discussion. Instead you spin it like a top and stand in the corner and cry, "What? What I do?"

Mystery solved.

Actually, I think that would be an interesting development. Obviously, it would have to be Biden who falls on the sword, because if Obama "fires" him and tags Hillary he gets the "see, he's not ready to be CIC because he should have selected Hillary in the first place."

I simply think the timing of Biden's comments is interesting, given how things have gone for the Obama campaign the past couple of weeks.

I'm with Jon, though, at this point, I think Hillary would stay on the sideline.

...but that's not what you said originally. You threw it out with the spin of a top. Use 4141 type talk going forward and perhaps the debate you'll get will be more fulfilling but i honestly dont think you give two shits and the spin is the point.

I do have one question for the spinsters, though. Where did this "messiah figure" description(about Obama) come from? I've ask because I'm watching Glen Beck(I love to watch both sides spin stories) and though I've heard it before, I never knew where it originated.

You can click on the 8/20 date in the chart to go to the article about that poll. It is 48-44 if they included "leaners", so I would assume the 47-41 and 49-47 do not include these people; "Leaners are those who don’t initially express a preference for one of the major candidates. But, when asked a follow-up question, they do." - quote from the 8/20 poll.

Trying to get this back on track. I find it curious that people are acting like Obama is having some kind of Dukakis-esque free fall. Here's a look at some national polls pre-convention and today...

Gallup (Then) - McCain 46, Obama 44
Gallup (Now) - McCain 48, Obama 43
Result: McCain +3

Rasmussen (Then) - Obama 46, McCain 46
Rasmussen (Now) - Obama 47, McCain 46
Result: Obama +1

CNN (Then) - Obama 47, McCain 47
CNN (Now) - Obama 48, McCain 48
Result: Wash

FOX News (Then) - Obama 42, McCain 39
FOX News (Now) - McCain 45, Obama 42
Result: McCain +6

So if you combine the 4 polls, McCain has an average gain of 2 points over the whole convention period, and we're still only a few days removed from the conventions. It will be interesting to see where things are at next week.

Well, you had Oprah calling him "The One". You had the Rolling Stone cover



You had Chris Matthews saying of Obama "[he] comes along, and he seems to have the answers. This is the New Testament."

You had the will.i.am video and the new "American Prayer" song. You had Halle Barry say ""I would walk ahead of him picking up garbage to clear his path if he asked me."

There was the columnist in San Francisco who called Obama a "lightworker" and compared him to people like Ghandi.

And then there's the artwork like this: Manifest Hope



I'm sure there are other examples, but there are a few.

Wow. Lotta stuff. Although, that Rolling Stone cover makes him look pretty cool. So nothing other than being a black guy with an actual chance for president? Dammit I took the wrong path. Should've chosen the red pill.

jump ball!

What on earth does Obama's skin color have to do with anything that was posted? You asked a question, I answered it. Why do you feel the need to be a sarcastic jackass?

That Rolling Stone cover is hillarious.

Ok......what are YOU talking about?

I just said that was a lot of stuff I didn't know about and didn't do anything special really and got a lot of attention. Now I know how SFLCat feels....:lol:

So much for that.

"So nothing other than being a black guy with an actual chance for president?"

Nothing posted had anything to do with being an black guy with an actual chance for president. It all addresses, however, the question you posed: Where does this Obama/Messiah thing come from?

Sorry.

Right. So he didn't do anything special. OMFG. What is wrong with you guys? So gotdamn highstrung on politics. Sorry. I'll stay on message from here on out.

Just shows how you can't say "black," "minority" or "woman" without everyone having a cow. No wonder there's no real debates.

How can a Muslim be a Messiah? Isn't that blasphemy?

A prophet at best.

You crazy sonsa' bitches went through like 3 pages in 12 or so hours? Politics are the new werewolf.

1) Muslim Messiah
2) ???
3) Profit!!

Though having a Christ be the Messiah is kind of blasphemous for Jews :D.

bah...you're a rookie! You're not even close. :)

I owe you an apology. I took the "So nothing other than being a black guy with an actual chance to be president" line as you saying that what I had posted was just about a "black guy with an actual chance to be president", as opposed to what I think your intention was, which is that all the Messiah-talk stems from him being "a black guy with an actual chance to be president".* I think I'm on the same page now, and I apologize. There's been so much sarcasm in this thread it's kinda hard to tell when someone's being sincere or not. Hey, it's life imitating politics! :p


*I still think it's more than just skin color that has some folks so enthralled. I think it's the whole package. Frankly, I think many see him not as the Obamessiah, but the 2nd Coming of John F. Kennedy. I have no doubt that if Obama wins, we'll start seeing stories about the New Camelot.

The last 5-6 pages from all posters involved (save maybe Cam) are represented here:



Figured I'd save Flasch and ace1914 the trouble of replying to every post and saying "SPIN!" like the Puritans during the witch hunts.

Back to subject where I left it earlier, I'm still trying to wrap my head around the fact that only 33% of North Carolina is registered republican and yet W got 56% of the state's vote in 2004. That's nothing short of amazing and you'd think it is something only a Messiah could accomplish ;)

I call dibs on being Michael J. Fox, pre Parkinsons, yo!