As long as Fox News holds the influence it does over almost half the country we will continue to be divided. He uses note cards, he has dementia, he messes up a name or takes 5 seconds to search for an answer, dementia. They literally spin it depending on his performance.

...and trump was super healthy and perfect and still is. And I laugh and laugh. I can't even take someone seriously when they say that shit.

https://www.cnbc.com/2021/03/26/butt...structure.html

While I am glad they might actually be funding this bill instead of throwing it on the deficit, wouldn't this kind of break Biden's pledge not to raise taxes on anyone making less than $400k?

A mileage tax is too complicated and a political landmine.

I'm just giggling that the URL is abbreviated "butt structure"

SI

:lol:

I didn't even notice that when posting.

Mileage tax is dumb which is not surprising coming from Mayor Pete.

Would it kill us to tax the companies that benefit the most from our infrastructure?

We’re gonna replace gas taxes with mileage taxes? Not a great way to fight greenhouse emissions.

Yet Electronic Vehicles do cause wear and tear on the roads.

Money's going to come mostly from the same place in general anyway, they'll just raise prices to get the money back.


True, but also mostly besides the point in this case. I'm with albionmoonlight's point. We need incentives for people to drive gas-powered vehicles less.


Still waiting for someone to explain why so many Democrats during the campaign, who presumably are not taking their queue from Fox News and don't agree with that half of the country, also thought Biden was showing signs of dementia.

IMO dementia is not the right term.

"Cognitive Decline" or layman's definition of "Senility" as can be found in dictionaries (but not the medical definition).

To your question, 2 reasons. Majority were rooting for the other Dem candidate and so stuck on some term that came up which painted Biden in a negative light. And some level of cognitive decline is normal/inevitable due to aging and so people associated Biden to their great uncle Joe.

I'm not sure.

If it was an add to gas taxes, I'd say yes. But that is not want they want to do.

Don't know how they will tax based on mileage. Toll booths came to mind but not sure if that is the plan? If so, there are ways to avoid a toll booth, you don't have to drive on the fancy highway, interstate etc.

Absolutely agree. We need to get the frak off ME oil dependency.

We need to still play a role there for our strategic purposes, but to have oil as a main input/driver to decision making is BS.

Good read on the GA voting law proposed changes.

https://www.cnn.com/2021/03/26/polit...ers/index.html

I'm good with this. Photo Id, utility bill etc. whatever. Voters have 2 years until next election and 4 years for the big one to prepare. If this provides a level of confidence that 2020 did not (right or not for 38-47% of the voting pop), I'm all for it.

There's a rule that says no protests/support within X feet at a voting station. I'm good with that. Is this rule because some Biden supporters offered food and water while wearing Biden t-shirts? I'm unsure about this but lean towards being okay ... bring your own water bottle or setup a water/food stand outside of the X feet.

Voters have some level of responsibility to show up at the right place but I do agree that we need to make sure granny-and-like who is technology challenged and don't read the news papers need to know where to go.

Didn't find how many GA provisional ballots were cast in 2020 but something like 20K+ in 2018, so not an insignificant number.

I could go either way here.

It's hard for me to believe a mobile voting unit will have the same "security/rigor" that a normal voting place has. But assuming it does, I'm okay with it. If it is more like a food truck, yeah it's gotta go.

Same as #4, if the drop box places have the same "security/rigor", I'm good with it. If its more like a UPS drop box, it's gotta go.

This one is pretty nebulous. The article didn't say why would someone be challenged. If it's because of lack of government/state Id, I'm okay with it. But probably not so simple so this is TBD.

Again, the answer is in the part that you quoted.

Also let's not forget.

Georgia Election Official: No Voter Fraud In Runoffs Except In Trump’s ‘Fertile Mind’


So if there is not voter fraud, what other reason might they have for doing this? I wonder.

It's almost as if they're going "hey, we're just trying to make it harder to vote and shave some votes here and there, even though there's no real concern about voter fraud (but maybe some theoretical non-existent voter fraud that will give people grounds to pretend this isn't just about preventing some groups of people from voting)"

SI

If you ignore what's happened in the past 100 years, and the research on voter fraud, and the research on the effects of these types of restrictions, you can believe that individual portions of this bill may not be geared towards voter suppression.

Otherwise...

This is better than the requirement to photo copy your driver's license twice in the original bill. It is still targeting older poor who often have a problem getting state id's, and completely unnecessary. There was absolutely no proof of wide-spread voter fraud, and unless this bill suppresses the Democratic votes enough that only Republicans win every election, the people claiming fraud now will still claim fraud. Trying to convince unreasonable people by restricting legal voters is ridiculous.



In the primaries and in early voting last year, there were lines of up to 6 hours. I promise you those lines weren't in Republican voter districts. This is just trying to stop people from waiting to vote, while also enacting laws to make longer lines more likely.


You are ignoring the parts of this bill that is going to allow closing of more voting precincts, and the end of bi-partisan election boards to protect voting rights. They close and move precincts constantly, and especially in poor black rural areas. How is a legal vote at the wrong precinct suddenly not a legal vote?

It couldn't be "like a food truck." They have to follow the same laws as non-mobile sites on who can vote and how. These were used to help ease the long lines in more Urban areas, and really the only reason to do away with them is because it makes it easy for poor to vote. It is no more prone to fraud than voting in a regular precinct, and the only reason I can see someone would think its is either ignorance or racism.


Why? Tell me the difference between a drop off box and a mail box? The ballots still have to have a registers voter that requested a mail in ballots name, information and signature. How is where the ballot dropped magically make it fraudulent? Has there been even one case of fraud ever proven to have happened in Georgia based on a drop box? This is just making something convenient, inconvenient to reduce votes. ie. voter suppression

It is not nebulous. This says that anyone can challenge any voters registration for any reason, and the voting boards are forced to go through each and every one to prove they are valid voter. Last election, the GOP partnered with a group to challenge 300,000 voters. Many election boards refused to do it because they didn't have a valid reason to challenge, and it would have took excessive man-hours to deal with the challenge, probably beyond the election date. This law allows someone to just file a challenge to every voter in Fulton county, and now the board is forced to prove every voter right to vote. That is idiotic.
Let's put this in a way that even the most right wing nut can understand. Let's give anyone a right to challenge your right to own a gun as many times as they like for any reason. Now, you cannot own your guns until your county runs enough checks to prove you have the right to own a gun. "But it is my constitutional right to own a gun?" Yes. And it is your constitutional right to vote.

Anything that puts artificial barriers to vote, makes it easier to strip people from the roles for no reason, and reduces voter participation is voter suppression. When it is targeted at large populations of POC, it is racist voter suppression. This is Jim Crow in a suit and tie.

I don't understand this specific to voter id topic? I am saying vast majority can prepare for the voter id requirement by getting a valid driver's license, state approved id etc.

Canada and many EU countries require some sort of voter id (including forum favorite Iceland).

Yes, there are exceptions and some will be disenfranchised, but help me understand why the vast majority in the US cannot?


My supposition was this was against Biden supporter giving water/snacks in the voting line. There is some sort of rule that says no rallys, demonstration (not sure the exact wording but you get the idea) within X feet. I think most will agree this is a good idea.

So have a stand where people can go get water/snack outside of X feet.


Not against it. Don't know enough about "security/rigor".


Your check in property taxes is muddled with a bunch of other mail.

You better believe if "bad actors" know there is an unsecured drop box that contains a bunch of visa/mastercard credit cards, it will get looted. So yeah, I can see "bad actors" doing something to drop boxes if they are unsecured.


I'm sure suppression of votes factor in here.

But that's not my rationale for #1. I guess its how someone assesses the risk. It's normal in my line of work to anticipate risks. I create a grid that basically lists the risks, the impact, the probability, and mitigation strategy.

I can see the risk of voter fraud increasing in the future. So impact is high, probability is low but still something that needs to be anticipated and mitigated.

I can also see the risk of a large portion of American public not full accepting vote results. Impact is high, probability is high. So I would want to anticipate this and mitigate it.

(If the impact is low, probability is low, I generally would not worry about it).

Per my response to above. Many countries (progressive ones too) require voter id. Doesn't seem to be that big of an ask for vast majority.

Okay. I truly don't know how widespread of an issue this is. But if it was widespread, I'd buy your argument. But if grandma went to the wrong school to vote, that's a different matter (e.g. my voting place has not changed for years).


See above answer re: visa/mastercards being concentrated in a drop box.

This was after the point where Biden was the clear winner of the Dem primary. So if they were rooting for another candidate, that's not what they were voting and telling the pollsters they wanted. The second one doesn't hold up in how people typically view their chosen candidate.

I've had to force myself in the past to read up on Reconstruction because it's so depressing. I get the feeling Republicans read about Reconstruction for ideas as well as the pure enjoyment they get from it.

You do have voter id. It is the voter registration card that the state gave you when you registered to vote. I don't have to present my social security card to a police officer if I get pulled over. I provide the information that show the officer that the state authorized me to drive. Why is there an additional requirement that I have to learn to drive for example in order to vote?



Again, why is the focus on preventing somebody from giving them water than the fact that they are standing in line for 51 mins. I know which one I think should be more important.



No I am talking about at the property taxes offices.


I have to run out but this piece requires a longer response because I want to be clear.

Why they want to ban giving food and drink in line is simple. The Republicans who run this state already did a lot of work to make sure black folks have to stand in line much longer than white folks to vote. It actually made national news when in the GA primaries last year people in majority black neighborhoods had to stand in line for hours upon hours. So to counter this voter suppression, people took water and food to polling places with long lines. Taking great pains not to wear campaign materials (Hell, a lot of groups that provided food and water to people at the polls were local companies).

But it harmed all that voter suppression that was put in place. Because now thirsty or hungry black folks would stay in line whereas before they might leave. Plain and simple.

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But the ballots still are verified like every other ballot. So again, what is the added possibility of fraud? The person on the ballot had to a) be a registered voter proven by whatever verification system in place to get a ballot b) fill out the ballot and sign it with whatever verification is needed to prove identification on the ballot. How is dropping in a "UPS style box" suddenly going to make that ballot fraudulent? AND show me one instance of that fraud occurring in Georgia. This is just a blatant attempt to make it harder to vote without adding a lick of extra security. Plain and simple.

It is very widespread. Heck, I can give you a personal example. My side of the county is very heavily POC. I used to vote at a precinct that was about a mile and half from the house. One year I was just looking at the state voting website and noticed that my voting place had changed to a place at the end of the main road I am off of 5 miles away. If I hadn't noticed, I would have never known. I was not informed by mail. I am sure it was probably in the local paper, but who gets the local paper? Anyway, it was further but still convenient. The next election, I decided to check again and low-and behold it had now changed again. This location is 6.5 miles away, and I literally have to pass the place they moved me to the first time to get there. They still host voting at both of the other precincts that are closer to me, but from some magical reason my 50% black subdivision along with the 75% black subdivision got new precinct further away without informing us, twice in two major election cycle. Meanwhile, the upscale subdivision across the highway that I can throw a rock to hit from my house, still votes at the precinct we originally did. Funny enough, that precinct never has lines either. Weird how that happens.

We in Europe respect Biden more. Trump is a freak - this is the opinion of most Europeans

My mom lives in downtown Decatur and is 74. Her polling place has changed 3 times in the past 3 elections. She does not read her mail so well.

The fact that you can defend the bill either means you are willfully ignorant or just plain dumb. They (the people who developed and voted for the bill) have told everyone multiple times what this is about. They are trying to make it more difficult to vote in democratic strongholds. They have not been shy about it.

This is like me requiring you buy fire insurance after setting bonfires in your yard. There was no problem to begin with, so no need for solutions. White folks in Cobb and Gilmer do not wait on long lines. Old black folks in Decatur and other areas do. That is why volunteer groups bring food and water. If you are 80 years old and have to wait for 4 hours in a line to vote, you may need some help. They know exactly what they are doing, and they did with precision. You are the problem.

Assuming these are unsecured drop off boxes, what would happen if I decide to drive off with one, or damage the contents inside?

What is the harm of securing drop boxes? Because it inconveniences people to make the extra effort to go to a secured place over a 4-6 week period?

I rather try to build some trust back with the 38-47% of voters that have questions about our voting process.

You should just ignore me (or read my positions more clearly).

There are some parts I agree with, some I question.

This is such a steaming pile of horse shit argument. Where were these questions when Trump ran? How come they aren’t questioning the down ballot results? How come the GA SOS and the top US officials, including Barr said no evidence of fraud?

These people you want to cater to are pissed their guy lost, plain and simple, and were conditioned months in advance that the only way he would lose is if the election was illegitimate. So your solution is to make it harder for people to vote and that somehow would reinstate trust in the system. Give me a break.

Maybe we are not talking about the same thing? Here's what I think I'm discussing ...


What is the issue with requiring an federal/state approved ID (assume photo)?


I am absolutely okay with your statement and agree there should be focus on this. What I read implied this law was to prevent intimidation or cajoling (my words) when someone is in line.

There is some broader rule about not having rallys, demonstrations etc. within X feet of polling place. Do you agree with this rule?

I did think you were talking about a plain old mail box drop-off. I'm going to assume the property tax offices are secured in some way which is what I want for ballot drop off boxes.

Fair enough.

If you have a study on how widespread this is, would appreciate a link. But I can concede this happens more than normal in minority areas.

GOP electeds all over the country have been very clear that if the electorate continues to look like the 2020 electorate, they can't ever win. I don't think this is true, but the GOP certainly does, so they've set about passing laws designed to reduce the electorate.

Searching in the other thread, you'll get hits on dementia in early Feb 2020. People were already thinking that before April (when Bernie dropped out).

But your point is taken. The preponderance of discussion here on Biden's dementia (which I called cognitive decline) was after.

I used 38-47%, let's put that 40% per below.


Yup, I want to do our best to "recover" as many of those lost souls as possible.

You realize there is literally no way to do that?

And if there is a way to do that it starts with GOPers telling their voters there is no widespread fraud.

The GOP is at a crossroads where they can either embrace democracy, moderate their positions, and continue to be viable nationally or they can restrict voting, continue as a white nationalist party, and hope they can win by reducing the elctorate. It's pretty clear which path they are choosing.

And all it costs is not letting a bunch of other people vote

SI

I'm with you on most of the first paragraph. Most of the republicans who don't trust the election results are hypocritical and full of crap. But let's do the math here. The referenced survey says 60% of people on the whole, but only a quarter of Republicans, trust the outcome of the election. The poll I think is the one from last December, a month after the election. In it, a third of Independents didn't trust the results.

That means there's a bigger problem here than just the Trump-at-all-costs folks. It's just like the media bias issue; even if there is no bias, even if the election results can be trusted (they can), we still have a problem if that many people not beholden to Trump don't believe it. There's more to this than just 'those right-wingers will never get it'.

Nope, it was 28% of independents and maybe 3% Democratic voters. That 28% is very near the number of independents that always vote Republican. This isn't a both sides issue.

https://www.npr.org/2020/12/09/94438...ection-outcome

"Independents."

There are people who are as hard core partisan as they come--super reliable Democratic or Republican voters--who, for whatever psychological reason, insist that they are independents.

I didn't say it was a both sides issue - I think like in most issues it's more complicated than R/D; politics is a lot closer to a four-branch consideration than a two-branch. The link I saw said 33%, but I don't think that's much different than 28% and certainly not worth quibbling over. I'm curious what your source is for that being the number that always vote Republican, because I've never seen clear data on that issue.

The only that group is ever going to "trust" elections if liberals aren't allowed to vote. That is it. And I have been told that directly yo my face in more than one occasion. "No one who would vote for a Democrat is a true American." Ylu think this or any law is going to bring that person 'back into the fold?"I guess if it suppress the minority vote enough it might.

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Brian, if you don't think that the vast majority of that 28- 33% is not Fox News- Newsmax watching hard core right wingers, you are being purposely obtuse.

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Also, I love that we are changing laws to make it harder for people to vote because people "feel" the election was wrong. No evidence. No court findings. Nothing actually to prove anything. Just a feeling. Bunch of snowflakes.

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The bottom line is Trump has conditioned a huge group of people that is their guy doesn't win then the election wasn't fair. It really is that simple.

Right, same neighborhood. Anecdotally, I know several Q'ers that claim they aren't Republicans. I doubt any of them have ever voted for a Decomcratic candidate in their entire lives.

https://www.pewresearch.org/politics...at-they-think/

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tan...-independents/

[quote=Edward64;3331417]
The issue is we have not explained why we need the additional requirements.

The voter is either eligible to vote or not. If you are concerned that the citizens of Georgia might not be who they say they are, take a photo of them when they register and send them a voter registration card with a picture on it. Having an account with Georgia Power should not be a determining factor for who can and who can not vote.


Here is the law.

I will let you judge which of these handing out food and water would fall under.


Nope, it is a drop box like the one they have at the car dealership service departments.


I want to get back to this. I don't want to make any assumption so I will address what I think you said and will stand corrected if I am misinterpreting what you said.

Are you saying that it is more important to gain back the trust of the 38-42% even if it means suppressing the vote of others?

Nothing that has been proposed or passed makes an election any more secure tomorrow than it was four months ago. Nothing that has been proposed or passed makes any less likely that whoever lose an election will believe that the election was stolen from them. All it does is put additional requirements on citizens who have already fulfilled the requirements that allows them to be able to vote at the behest of a second group of citizens because the first group makes the second group uncomfortable with their voting practices. That seems ancient and well...no I will just leave it at that.