I'm much more worried myself about all the rich fucks who work less than the working poor, yet make much, much more off of the government.


As was said before, I think most of the poor who have minimum wage jobs are trying at least as hard as the rest of us. We're not talking about "welfare mothers" here, we're talking about people with a job trying to make ends meet. I'd rather throw them a bone than the bums on teh plush.

I was able to live on less than minimum wage for a few years. I honestly feel I could do it again if I had to. Some roommates in a shitty place, public transportation, no luxuries, and a budgeted diet.

My experience has been to the contrary, YMMV of course.

Some are, without a doubt, several specific examples come to my mind right off the bat. But I don't agree with "most", not even close.

I don't think that's so much racist (as the phrase simply seemed to be a convenient shorthand most everybody would understand with no malice intended) as realist.

What that descriptive phrase brings to mind is a significant increase in both violent crime & the suicide rate in the U.S. if you applied it broadly. I already have to ask myself whether it's worth continuing to breath every day under better circumstances than that, I don't know if I'd like to see the answer to the question otherwise.

Nothing to do with Mexican immigrants. Typically if you are working a minimum wage job, you are probably unskilled. I'm not talking about someone working minimum wage to get by temporarily if they are out of work or in a career change. I'm talking about people who can only find those kind of jobs.

Back in the late 1980s, I worked a series of factory jobs to help pay for college.

About 3/4 of the other workers were central Americans, probably illegals. They showed up on time, every day--the least hard-working of them were rock-solid responsible, and the most motivated worked like lunatics.

I found that the older whites and blacks worked hard, too--the younger ones, though, not so much, and a lot of it had to do with alcohol and drugs.

As they say, YMMV--it was just a couple of factories, and my hometown certainly had problems with MS-13 and other gangs, but I never thought about immigration in the same way again.

My apologies if some people find this racist, but I don't think any part of America should be using any part of Central America's living standards as a goal. Yes, we are supposed to be above that level of living as a country, and even if we're not, we should certainly be aiming beyond that level, rather than setting our goals at our neighbor's lowest common denominator, and below our current standard of living. As a country, personally I think one of our ultimate goals should be to enable/promote the best standard of living for as many of our residents as possible.

Yeah, my experience has been that people who aren't hard workers and going to be stuck working mulitple minimum wage jobs -- they just won't work. Why bother when ther'es welfare for family or friends. If someone is actually supporting themselves and/or a family and working for near nothing I've found it's because they're trying to get somewhere.

That would be your first thought the cable/internet goes but first its all one package Cable/internet/phone. Since most job applications are done online plus working on resume and sending it email to people . than the phone incase SOMEONE calls you for a job.

Hell I jump every time the phone rings but its usally a bill collector.

Than with 4 kids if I had no internet/cable we would have to play board games all day and if you have kids from age 13 to 21 you know what would happen they drive you nuts...LOL

No "welfare" does not pay for car insurance or car payment for that matter, they gave me some food stamps but are reluctant to help with anything else because their is income comming in. I would have to get an eviction notice before they would step in and help.

I went 4 months with no insurance but recently got your basic coverage since kids are driving the car, of course the bank is bitching I dont have FULL COVERAGE on the car now.

Realy this situation has allowed my kids to HELP and its probibly the best way for them to learn what it takes to support yourself, its kind of cool to see one of them with the little extra money they have left over buy their sibling a birthday gift without anyone asking them, not many kids now a days would do that.

If they learn anything thru all of this is that FAMILY takes care of each other first and screw everyone else.

very true.

I'm not alluding to how they live down there. No one wants clay huts and dirty water. I'm talking about how they live in the U.S. They are fiscally responsible, stretch their dollar as far as it goes, and work their asses off.

i can show you a guy right now in Charlotte, NC that drives a 5 series BMW, parks in a wal mart parking lot....walks a scant .25 miles and begs all day. We often mee up in this same parking lot and I buy some of my guys breakfast at an IHOP, we have watched him daily, every time we are there. Gets out in jeans and a t shirt, adds some top rags and grabs his sign out of his trunk...



I pulled up to him one day on the exit ramp he hangs out on, and rolled the window down, held a $100 out and said if you empty your pockets for me its yours....he pulled out a few dollars and some crackers and a prayer book someone handed him. I asked for the "bimmer keys" he smiled and said, "get on outta here its bad for business"



Of course not all are this way but I know one that is.

Which is why you should verify they pass the smell test before giving out any money

that's crazy!

As I said to Jon, even these dudes, as the extreme exception to the thousands of panhandlers who genuinely are sleeping under bridges, are still spending every day all day begging on a street corner, and a life and relationships built around spending all day begging on a street corner, pretending to be a bum. He sounds like king of the panhadlers, and I may envy the dude's car, or his other possessions, but I still don't want any piece of his life.

total side story to the main thread, but when I was at Georgia Tech I would pass 2-5 people begging for money on the way to the train station every day. For awhile I gave some change away on occasion but quickly became jaded with that whole idea. The Varsity was on one side of the street and there was a BP station on the other. If I had the time and cash on hand I would turn down the request for money but offer to buy a snack/small meal instead. One of the beggars took me up on it and we went into the Varsity and I got him a burger and fries. All others turned me down, "I don't need food man, I need money"

(Atlantans insert jokes about Varsity food here)

Yep. There are no guarantees in life, and sometimes really shitty things happen to really good people. My mom grew up dirt-ass poor (didn't even live in a house with running water until after she graduated high school), eventually raised three kids with my father in a nice middle-class lifestyle, did even better after they divorced, only to lose it all when I was 18. For the last 15 years of her life she lived in a series of smaller and smaller apartments, went from a Cadillac to a entry-level Saturn, and eventually declared bankruptcy a week before she died of pancreatic cancer.

That's life, unfortunately.

Is there a public library near you? They surely have computers where you can work on your resume, e-mail it off, and fill out applications. And they carry these things called books, which are great for kids. And of course they also have videos and DVDs, though not usually of the latest releases.

And while the internet/cable/phone are bundled, surely you can break the bundle and save at least a little money. Maybe even ditch the phone as well and get a cheap cell? I dunno. Like was said before, you surely know what's best for your family and I'm an outsider looking in. I'm sorry that you and your family are in the situation that you're in...

Thinking about this, it ties back into the "does your job define you thread". Most get up, go work 7-12 hours/day then come home to your life. Seems to me in a lot of ways we sell our bodies and our time in exchange for life goodies and toys. I can almost imagine this dude laughing over a cold beer with his friends talking about a tough day at the office...And these guys sit on exit ramps and hold a sign, a far cry from laying on a sidewalk and even interacting with your contributors.

My wife is in the same boat as well. She's very good at her job as an editor but it's a skill just not that highly valued money-wise.


If I'm looking at the wording there, that survey doesn't read as they are trying to portray. It claims that's the starting salary companies claim to give to people who have bachelor's degrees. But that could be a starting salary they hand to someone who has 10 years of experience who also has a bachelor's degree.

However, it's not the average starting salary for people coming out of college, walking right into a job. And it sure as hell doesn't measure the legions of college grads that I know who are excitedly plying their trade at places like Panera and Target because no one else is hiring.

I know I've never personally made $50K a year with my computer science degree. If I had moved out to the west coast, I probably could have gotten that but I would have had crushing bills to offset the increase in pay and never would have paid off my student loans as I'm about to.

When I got out of college, I bounced around for about a year and a half before getting a job even remotely related to my field and I have one of the "high demand" degrees.

SI

I barely made $10/hr after I graduated from Clemson with a history degree. When I quit work to stay at home with my kids and go back to school, I made $12.75/hr.

No offense, but I find it shocking that at, I'm guessing, 5+ years out of college and a CS degree, you haven't made 50k+. Keep in mind I know the market you live in - I find that completely shocking.

I'm not quite sure how not knowing how to use a computer makes someone illiterate. Are they unable to read the words on the screen?


So, I want ot tread likely here, as with the response regarding BigDawg's situation, particularly because I like you a lot and hope to hit up a Nats' game with you :), but I'm with Wade a little bit here. I have been very fortunate in my life and have made some risky decisions that have, thus far, been beneficial. Having said that, my first full time programming job I had two years of college and no experience (outside of an internship) and I was offered $50k (I took $45k + stock options). Here I am 10 years later and I have never had a job under $50k and I never got a degree. I have surpassed that number by quite a bit, I am living in my second house (condo) in a major city in a good neighborhood. I didn't have to move to the west coast and I am not underneath a cloud of debt (the only debt I have is my mortgage).

FWIW, if you just go up 95 a bit you would live in one of the best cities for tech jobs. The 10 Best Cities to Find Tech Jobs - PC World

I don't mean to either brag or put you down, but I wonder if a relocation would help in anyway -- certainly you have to check cost of living and whether you would be happy in another area, but never making over $50k seems very low to me.

You seem to keep missing the point. When you add in ROOM MATES you are no longer living on YOUR minimum wage RM. You're undercutting the cost of living entirely by doing so.

Surviving on min wage means using anything and everything to make ends meet, so you could survive that way, sure.

Living is not surviving, living is having your own life on your own terms in your own place without having to rely on room mates or parents or anyone else to pay the excess in your bills.

You cannot LIVE on Min wage in this country.

No one requires you to live on your own in your own place. If you are making minimum wage in this country, you shouldn't be living by yourself. I still think you can "live" and have a couple roommates.

Your definition of "living" would seem to preclude government assistance as well. Or is it fine for the taxpayers to chip in and help you live your life on your terms, as long as you're not relying on roommates or parents?

I can't agree with you on that one, RendeR. Living with others and splitting costs is a compeltely acceptable way to live on minimum wage. I need to do some research (which probably wont' happen) on the different tax brackets before addressing a lot of what RM has to say, though.

I kinda wondered about that too....I mean once you log the guy in, he's still illiterate, I'd think his password would be just the first of many stumbling blocks. But maybe they're just logging in to play a Blues Clues game, or watch Baby Genius videos.

I saw an interesting article in our local paper today about health care statistics. It made me think of this thread. It stated that in my state the average person pays over $15K a year for their health plan, which it stated was about equivalent to a year's salary on minimum wage.

I think health care is the biggest problem in this issue. When you're young, single and willing to go without it, things get a lot easier.

In a state that allows it, you could be domestic partners and cut down on a bunch of your expenses and taxes ;)

Bad comedy movies have been made about less (or even about this)

SI

On the screen, on the paper we sent them with their login info. They didn't bother to keep the manual, either. They can't locate their names on an alphabetical list, so they can't 'make their mark' on the sign up sheets.

Basically they sat quietly for the presentation, obviously not paying any attention to our talk at all. I'd been tipped off ahead of time not to expect much and not to try to engage anyone not paying attention or following along as it would embarrass them.

Got it. That wasn't clear to me based on the story -- I wasn't sure where the connection was.

AC is definitely not a necessity. You guys have a warped view of what need really is. If hot temperatures kill you, they kill you like anything else. Try living in Iraq without AC and I guarantee you it's hotter than anything in the states.

and how many 75+ year olds live in Iraq without AC?


Oh right, we are only talking about young extremely fit people, not everyone fits that category

How did humanity even survive before air conditioning?

I don't even remember anyone having it when I was growing up, and that wasn't all that long ago.

AC may not be a "necessity", but it is ridiculously judgmental to criticize someone for having it, no matter how little they make. It is certainly not a frivolous expense, especially in the south.

Yeah...and if they don't have AC and they live in the south...better not do something crazy like venture into the world of wearing dress clothes for a profession. You'll be soaked with sweat before you even leave your house (even if you did just take a cold shower).

It might be a regional thing though...I grew up in Florida and there is no way you are going to survive without AC. I have never known anybody who did NOT have AC when growing up, and I grew up lower middle class (or "working poor" is probably what its called today).

I'm living in the north now, and while I really really really prefer to have ac...I could likely do without if it wasn't affordable. Heat on the other hand...not so much.

There are a ton of things that humanity survived with at one point that we wouldn't subject anyone to today.

Yes, this is the sort of hidden thing that makes it even harder for poor people to work their way up. It's harder to get a good job when you already look poor.

I wonder if there's any other "necessities" I should know about.

I never knew I grew up so poor.

To me it comes down to a sense of entitlement about a certain kind of lifestyle that our society can't currently maintain for everyone. We're eventually going to have to accept a lower standard of living in this country.

I don't think it's an "entitlement" issue as much as...our society/culture doesn't allow for "stinky & dirty" professionals any more (and reference stinky & dirty standards to 60-70 years ago...not what we consider it to be today). At least not in the general sense.

You (figuratively you) wouldn't shop at a grocery store where the manager, cashier, etc. walks by and smells profoundly bad...or the waiter/waitress serving your food looks/smells like he just got his shirt out of a salt-filled washing machine. It's just unacceptable these days. So expecting a minimum wage person to not have these things (again...I'll speak for living in the south and namely Florida) and ever progress beyond that is like a one-legged man in an asskicking contest.

This (fortunately or unfortunately depending on your point of view) is what our society has become. Similar to the "too big to fail" syndrome...we have created (seemingly) unsustainable standards that likely need to be adapted. Unfortunately...who's going to be the first one to voluntarily shut off the AC? Or who will be the first 4-person family to volunteer to leave their >1600 sq ft home for a more sustainable 1000 sq ft condo?

I agree overall lifestyle standards are unsustainable in this country...but I think AC/Heat is likely one of (if not THE) last thing we should expect people to drop or accpet reduced standard of.

I don't have AC and I most certainly can afford it. But shit, I'm plenty comfortable in humid 90 degree heat. I've got fucking fans for god's sake.

Farmers don't count...you'll be here long after the nuclear winter that all of us society-folk cause. :)

I'm still astonished that there's criticism of people who spend on AC as if it is some frivolous expense for a luxurious lifestyle.

I mean, I get it that people didn't have it in the past, and yeah I know many of you walked up the hill in the snow to school (BOTH WAYS!), and at different times in this country things like electricity and plumbing were not considered necessities, but I always thought it was a good thing that standards of living increased in this country. I consider that progress. Going backwards would seem to be an epic failure.

Shit like penicillin. You might not need it now, but when you do, you do. Plenty of people 'get by' without penicillin everyday, and humanity 'got by' just fine without, 'cuz those that didn't weren't part of humanity anymore. Nobody 'needs' air conditioning when they're growing up, nor do they need phone assistance, nor food stamps...but that's because you're growing up. When you're 80 and on your death bed, you might actually decide you do 'need' A/C, whereas some dude 200 years ago didn't have that option, but he was probably dead long before 80, because he couldn't get any penicillin.

Are you my Dad?

I'm perfectly fine when it gets 90 here too. Again, we don't need to polarize everything. People who live in Maine don't really *need* AC, yet plenty use it because it makes them comfortable. Yet there are places where it's more akin to our heat, which certainly is a necessity that the government pays for when people can't afford it. I also imagine that there are places where a lot of people live now that were left pretty much barren before AC, just like there are places now that only exist because we pipe water there.

I'm much more bothered by middle class people using up all of our resources in order to maintain their comfort than I am some poor people in Phoenix who want to stop sweating. I mean is our problem really poor people getting some sort of AC credit? If the American lifestyle is a problem it's because of the mass of rich and middle class people who are enjoying the most luxurious standard of living in human history, not because some poor people want a piece of it. Let's start by having the people who can afford it make some sacrifices for the good of all.

Standards of living can increase without the increased standards becoming necessities. I find it odd that you consider something that most of the world's inhabitants don't have to be a necessity for humans to survive.

I don't think I'm criticizing. I'm just saying that you don't need it in your lifestyle. If I was living on minimum wage, A/C would be real low on my priority list. The issue is whether it's a necessity or a luxury. I personally don't believe it's a necessity for most people.