My problem is Boston let Manny be Manny for so long, that it's their own fault, and no one elses. If you man up and discipline the guy when these problems start, their is no bitter divorce.

I hung with Manny a long time as a Red Sox fan. But how can you you have a star player who just takes off and doesn't play whenever he feels like it? This isn't like that insane A-Rod/Eckstein poll from a while back.

Hell, maybe a retarded, unreliable Manny who only plays when he feels like it is worth $15 million next year. But $120 million for 6 years or whatever he wants?

All I'm thinking is that if the Red Sox won the WS last year, we'd not hear half of the anti-Manny stuff as we are this offseason. It almost seems like Sox fans are trying to console themselves, saying even though we lost in the ALCS, it would have been worse with Manny or something.

$120 for 6 is obviously a negotiating point. Though if I was the Dodgers, I'd give him $20 a year for... 4 years.

I don't think the Red Sox can be blamed for an elderly man being attacked or a guy repeatedly "calling in sick" to make a point about a contract. There's certain minimum standards that every professional athlete should be expected to meet, even if they otherwise have free reign in the discipline department.

No pro team can baby their players these days, that's why character has to have at least some consideration when you're shelling out this much money.

And of course, this Sox administration inherited this issue, but they did try to get rid of him in every way except eating multiple years of the contract. Remember when they put him in irrevocable waivers and nobody wanted him? That actually seemed to shut him up for a year, but he always went back to being the crybaby with the mentality of a 6-year old

I don't see the point. Red Sox fans, like any fan of any team that ever existed, would probably be more content with things if they won the championship, no question.

Even David Ortiz said he needed to go, and I've never heard Ortiz say anything about anyone. There were reports of Red Sox players going to the front office and demanding Manny be shipped out, and of Manny refusing to play for the REST OF THE SEASON unless the Sox declined his options. They got a decent deal, all things considered.

I know it's cool to be anti-Red Sox no matter what, but I don't see how this stuff can be defended and how any sports fan wouldn't hope to see him take a hit for this stuff in the wallet in the off season.

A 4-year/$80 million deal would give others a huge incentive to skip games in the middle of the season as a contract ploy. What's the downside? Manny profiting off his actions would be really sad, IMO

Oh Bull! Take off the Red Sox glasses. The Red Sox put up with his behavior for YEARS. "Manny being Manny" was something funny. So don't all "Red Sox can't be blamed" stuff.

"Others incentive" LOL! The problem is that there aren't many "others" that are as good a baseball player as Manny Ramirez. I mean how many other no doubt future 1st ballot HOFers batters are there out there? A-Rod? Pujols (with a few more years)? Frank Thomas?

What do you think they should have done? Put him on waivers, offer to give him up for nothing (they did both). It would have been REALLY gutsy to trade him after '04 at his most valuable, in retrospect, that would have been a tremendous idea, though nobody would have been for it at the time because it was a period or relatively good behavior.

Eat $100+ million 3-4 years ago? I'd take an even more insane Manny over that scenario.

I don't get the "blame" discussion, I don't get how it matters. Some of his shtick was funny (taking a leak in the green monster, etc). Refusing to play in important games against division rivals is so far off the charts it's ridiculous. I can't remember another professional athlete doing that in modern history in the middle of season. Fine, the Red Sox deserved that, that's not necessary to the point I'm making about Ramirez being a douchebag and hoping he doesn't profit off of these kinds of tactics.

I'm not saying they didn't get a ton out of him, and that he's not worth a shitload of money even if he only plays when he feels like it. I'm just venting about a douchebag that's about to profit millions off of refusing to play in games. The Red Sox could havehandled the whole thing better and gotten out of this sooner (I guess, though I haven't exactly thought of how). That just doesn't excuse his behavior though.

The level of the player doesn't matter.

If a solid 3B has a team option for $7 million after the year, and he's worth more on the free agent market, why not just refuse to play in September until the option is declined? Then he can go out on the open market and get more.

If a player on your team refused to play important games while he was under contract, you'd be upset, wouldn't you? Is that really such an unreasonable stance?

Oh, I dunno, let him know that behavior wasn't ok by suspending him or something. Instead the Red Sox let him do whatever he wanted and it became funny... until it didn't. You didn't hear "Manny being Manny" stories in Cleveland. Probably because they didn't give him such a long rope.


Of course it does. Don't be silly.


Perhaps because that FA value will be worth less if he declines to such a level. Or refuses to play at all. If the player is as great as Ramirez, it may be worth the risk.

Kind of like signing Terrell Owens in football. He may be wacky, but until he gets there, he's definitely worth the risk.

When has an MLB player ever been suspended for general in-house behavior issues? The MLBPA would never let it happen. This ain't the NFL. And the Sox really didn't have the smoking gun in terms of the injury stuff until this year. If a player says he's not ready physically, how can you suspend him? This just hasn't really come up before, because generally, (actually always outside of this one instance), the player tries to get back on the field. Really, can you give an example where an MLB team was able to deal with a player refusing to play in a game by suspending him (or really any behavioral issue that isn't black and white and already agreed on by the MLBPA, like a positive drug test)

The Sox probably should have learned how to "build a case" about this kind of thing earlier, it seems their suspension of him this year had legs.

Both Manny and Owens are worth some risk.

But is Manny even leaving ANYTHING on the table with the exploits last year? Shouldn't a Manny that plays every day and doesn't fake injuries be worth more than one that does? The fact that it doesn't seem like there's any value difference between those players is just insane to me.

"But on the way to the exam, Ramirez, according to sources, couldn't remember which knee was sore. So the Red Sox had both of his knees examined. The MRIs revealed no damage in either."

And he can be yours for a $100 million commitment!

Where exactly are going to find a Manny that does? Even with his uninterest with Boston (which as in the past, would have dissipated), he still had a 136 OPS+ and was carrying the team when Ortiz was crap earlier.

There's a logical fallacy there. Obviously, it's possible to win a world series without a Manny Ramirez (the Phills did it). And having Manny doesn't guarantee a World Series. So clearly, his value isn't unlimited, there is a point where where he's too expensive.

Your point only makes sense if Manny, specifically, is absolutely necessary for a team to win, or guarantees winning. Then, his flaws don't matter, because you get the same return either way.

He would be worth more if he were 30 and hit 60 home runs last year. He should be worth more if he doesn't skip games. I don't care how good you are, your value could always be higher or lower, you don't "cap out" at a point where you're so good that nothing can reduce your value.

I think there's a lot better ways to spend $100 million over 4 years, looking strictly at value of player, counting production and subtracting, without emotion, the times where he just doesn't show up for work.

I'd give him a one-year contract for $25 million, because he clearly performs well in that environment. Maybe $35 for 2-years, and exceedingly lower average salaries the longer you go.

The point is which player is another team going to get that matches Manny, since you think teams are stupid to try to sign him because he does weird crap. Yes, the Red Sox are trying to use Bay (who isn't as good).

This whole, he'd have more value if he did X, Y, and Z is a silly argument. Julio Lugo would have more value if he his 100 HRs last year, but he didn't.

You've said that Manny's reached some kind of level of excellence where skipping games and attacking press secretaries shouldn't effect his value. I think EVERY player's value can go up or down based on what they give to the team, you apparently feel there's an upper cap where negatives should be disregarded, because there's no suitable replacements. We'll have to agree to disagree on that. On a roster of 25, there's always replacements. You can be a great player, it doesn't mean you're a great value.

I think maybe you're mistaking me for someone who thinks pissing behind the green monster during a game or carrying around a water bottle in the outfield is bad for the team. I could care less about his goofy antics, and don't feel they should effect value. But when a guy actually skips games, you have to take that into account when determining value to the team. I'm not saying I would replace him Sean Casey out there.

I don't know that I particularly care how much money the guy makes (unless it's my team that's paying him or anybody else). He's welcome to whatever the market will bear AFAIC.

I don't care how much athletes make generally (they deserve the millions). I just think it's dangerous, from a sports fan point of view, when mid-season holdouts are rewarded. Hey, I guess they have the right to do it, and if teams are going to cave and reward them they should. I'm just saying it kind of sucks when it's your team and they're in a pennant race.

It kind of takes a little bit of the fun out if players start sitting out important games for contractual reasons. We're about to see one player make a financial windfall for that decision. We'll see other players start doing it. That's their right, and the teams can pay what they want and all that. It's just sad for the game.

I'd love to have Manny on the Phillies if it wouldn't kill our payroll and was only for about two or three years.

I guess that's just me, though.

And the large majority of fans in close to 30 other cities.

It's just like raising kids. If you give in to every desire for years you can't be surprised when they suddenly don't listen to you.

Well the Red Sox way back when thought that Babe Ruth's value was negatively affected by his negative actions. How'd that work out for them?


As stated by JPhillips, when you give in to every desire for years this is not a surprise.

The Babe Ruth trade was a bad one. Not sure what the hell that has to do with anything though.

I still think it's surprising when a player skips games in the middle of the reason for contractual reasons when I can't remember a single example of that happening this century. I guess I'm just a crazy homer and I should apologize to Manny for my unfair criticisms.

And the Red Sox suck for not breaking the union and becoming a RARE example of a team that's successful in suspending a player for behavior issues (I actually can't think of another example).

Nobody wanted him. They gave him away for nothing (irrevocable waivers) and even the Yankees wouldn't touch him. Suspensions don't happen in MLB. The doucheabaggery wasn't quite worth eating $100+ million several years ago. I can't even tell what you guys are arguing with me on.

You can, as MrBug put it "[let] go"

I criticized a player for pretty insane behavior that was in the news today. I assure you that this doesn't effect my life for any second I'm not posting about it, but hey, thanks for caring.

All I've seen is Boston fans pile on Manny with any new "news", like a 'doth protest too much' type of situation. I mean Philly fans aren't this pissy at J.D. Drew.

You see, I would find this more believable if you didn't write a book's worth of words in this page of this thread alone on this topic. Sure, it may not be something that affects how you pay the bills, but bull crap it doesn't affect your life. All of us diehards, it does affect our lives, and those fans who believe otherwise are BSing themselves.

So saying the Sox are throwing Manny under the bus with this being a final FU, is piling on manny? Whafuck?

Not YOU, silly :p.

The fanbase in general... which of course allows for those who are not in the majority.

Wasn't that 11 years ago?

OK, point taking, if I'm still posting about this, after no new developments, in 2019, I'll totally concede whatever insane point you're making here, OK?

The Manny thing is the top story on ESPN.com after the front page splash. It's not a fair topic of conversation at FOFC? What am I allowed to post about? Sure, it's overhyped because it's Boston but I'm sure it'd still be a fairy big story if Carlos Pena was faking injuries, refusing to play in games, sent a letter of suspension by the Devil Rays and then suddenly decided his injury was miraculously healed.

If a Devil Ray fan posted about that, I don't think he'd get shit for it. I personally wouldn't give him shit for it for referencing it in a "Official 2008-2009 MLB Offseason Thread" at FOFC, but maybe I'm just special.

Give me a break.

Fair enough, I think you're right in the sense that my passion for the Red Sox (which is quite mild) is the only reason I'm annoyed at the Manny stuff to begin with. I find his contract situation quite interesting and would love to see his ploy not work out financially for him. That's all. Noboby wants to talk about the contract, people just want to post about how I've somehow unreasonable to post about this and it's all the Red Sox's fault so who cares. That's kind of annoying (not the opinion that the Red Sox have fault here, just the whole attitude) but whatever, it's the standard deal around here.

Well, one point in Issidiqui's favor is that, frankly, a Rays fan wouldn't bother to post about this. Not every ESPN top story gets a thread, or even mentioned.

I personally don't think you should be taking shit for posting about this. As a fan, that's your right, and the way things went, I think you have every right to be pissed (even if agree with Issidiqui that that whole situation was created because the Red Sox didn't man up early on in Manny's contract and tell him the right way to be a professional ballplayer).

Really? Didn't we have a whole thread on the Pirates/Draft Pick/Scott Boras thing? That was a guy who never played a professional game refusing to report. This was a future-HOF refusing to play while he was under contract. I think the latter is a bigger story.

In non-Manny Red Sox related news, it turns out that Scott Boras is just MOSTLY nuts, not all Nuts.

He put something out via the Boston Herald, that he wasn't looking for Posada money (4/52), more like 2/20 or 2/22. I CRINGE at giving the dessicating corpse of Jason Varitek even that much money.

Somebody will pay him 2/20. And things could get depressing-bad in the 2nd year of that contract.

The Pirates thing was posted by a Pirates fan.

Question is how many times have we heard about that since then? It seems every month something else is released or 'leaked' about Manny ever since the BoSox dealt him. And then the discussions about how bad Manny was for the team, again.

Besides, how often do Pirates fans get to discuss their teams in these official threads anyway?

I'm still pissed.

Technically a long term disenfranchised Phillies fan who wanted to give the Pirates a shot this year. I'll still follow the Bucs to some degree, as Lanny Frattare is one of the best radio announcers in the buisiness. But since I have XM now, and can listen to the Phils games too, I'll probably tend to listen to the pirates.


And the Boras/Alvarez thing was just unacceptable behavior by Boras.

Perhaps, but point is, it was mostly your connection to the team (either as a past fan or as someone in the area more aware of the team's goings-on) that led to that discussion.

I'm not disagreeing with you on that, I'm disagreeing with ISiddiqui's criticisims of me for posting about this at all (even though the majority of my posts are in response to his posts, so he must be interested in this too).

I only brought up the Pirates thing because in response to the argument that the Manny thing is a non-story and just bitter Red Sox fans carrying on (or whatever). The Pirates thing was posted about here too, in it's own thread, was clearly less newsworthy, but apparently acceptable post material, and not just sour grapes.

There were also reports he called the Red Sox and said he was ready to play hard the rest of the year if he wasn't traded (really, he was doing all this for a better contract in the offseason and he was going to sit out the last 2 months of the year? And this was going to increase his contract value past 1/20 or 2/40? How does that make any sense?) And there was another player who clearly talked to Manny and then called the Red Sox and said Ramirez would play Saturday - if you want to lay odds on that being anyone other than Ortiz be my guest.Yes, Bartolo Colon on the 2008 Boston Red Sox. I'm not sure if he was officially suspended or just told to go home to the Dominican and not come back, but they managed to do that without 35 "anonymous" leaks to the newspapers, and no one in the media bothered to find out. If you want another New England athlete who is a "team leader" that probably dragged out injuries/rehab because of a contract dispute, then there's Taylor Twellman down the road in Foxboro.

Like Fozzie said, this is the FO throwing Manny under the bus, again, and a compliant media playing along/leading the charge. It's just sad to see so many fans get sucked in yet again. Who was the last good Red Sox player to leave this town on good terms - Yastrzemski maybe? I can't wait to see how they're going to turn on Ortiz next.

There may or may not be a question on Bartolo Colon. There is absolutely no question on Jose Guillen.

Guillen was suspended for the last eight games of the 2004 season, and the following postseason by the Angels, basically for behavior detriment to the club (and fittingly, the move, made when the Angels were three games back, triggered them winning almost all of their remaining games to get past the division-leading A's).

There may or may not have been a peep from the MLBPA. I can't recall. But I will tell you this. Jose Guillen never played one more damn game for the Angels. ;)

But you were also disagreeing with the assertion that the Red Sox are at least partly culpable themselves for letting the situation get to where it got. And that's just flat wrong, IMO. The Red Sox basically did nothing to punish Manny whatsoever after seven and a half seasons, and then after shipping him out after the latest episodes, have basically tried to paint him as this bad guy acting on his own (or at most with his agent). And I just don't think it's as black and white as that. Not saying Manny's handling of the situation doesn't make him an utter tool and ass, but only a fervent Red Sox fan would deny that the Red Sox made decisions for his entire tenure with them that encouraged this sort of behavior, and to label him as the sole misproprietor here is just false. They are as much to blame as he.

And the voters get an NL MVP right by picking Albert Pujols!

Manny needed about 7 more HR's in the time he was in the NL to capture the MVP :(

Yeah you take him off the Cards and they still don't make the playoffs.

And yet, Pujols' 190 OPS+ is the highest in his career and tied for the 93rd best season of all time. He also destroyed the field (including 2nd placer Chipper Jones) in Adjusted Batting Runs, Offensive Win%, Batting Wins, VORP (Chipper finished 3rd here to Hanley Ramirez and Pujols), and Equivalent Average.

I don't think the MVP award should be restricted for "Playoff Team Players Only"

Take Orlando Cabrera off of the White Sox and they probably miss the playoffs so he must be AL MVP!