They weren't even close to the pitcher that Maddux was. Maddux got by on brains...that's what a pitcher is. Clemens was overpowering and when he got old, he was toast...so he cheated. Martinez was Maddux for a while and then he faltered. Maddux is the greatest pitcher since Seaver.

Maddux is one of the 10 best pitchers of all time, but for pure peak value, none of us will ever see a season quite like Pedro in 1999 (or 2000).

Easily in my top 5 favorite players of all time, and certainly my favorite pitcher from the past 20 years. I am glad that I got to see him pitch one last time in June (even though it wasn't a good outing). His control throughout the game, as well as his glove, was the best I have ever seen in my baseball life.

Sure, several pitchers have had awesome seasons but 20 straight 13-win seasons is also awesome. I am much more impressed by consistency and career value than I am in some hotshot coming in, pitching great for a couple eyars and then blows out his arm or succumb to injuries.

Don't forget that Maddux has 2 of the 5 best Adjusted ERA+ seasons of all time.

Legit, but what Pedro did in 2000 (a 9 to 1 K to BB ratio, something like 11 K/9, and a WHIP of 0.73 ) is beyond ridiculous - he didn't really use his defense. Picking nits with Maddux is absurd, no doubt, but his dominance was second to Pedro's - in that he relied slightly more on his defense.

Think about this: In 2000 (and 1999 offers plenty or arguments as well)

Pedro had
1) The highest K's in the league, and the highest K/rate in the league (starters qualification)
2) The 2nd lowest walk rate in the league
3) Allowed 5.31 hits per 9 IP
4) led the league in shutouts and 2nd in complete games


I always say this - Pedro in 1999 and 2000 was the pitcher people imagine Koufax was.

Not only that, Crapshoot, but Pedro's 7 year run from 1997 to 2003 is so amazingly impressive that it hasn't even been close to equaled by anyone in baseball history (Walter Johnson's 8 year run from 1912-19 is the closest, but he had some subpar [for a HoF on the level of Johnson or Martinez] years in the middle). Maddux may have had 2 of the 5 best Adjusted ERA+ season of all time (4th and 5th), but Martinez has the 2nd greatest (and really, the first best is from 1880 when things were much different) by quite a margin and has 4 others in the top 35. And he is the only pitcher in MLB history with 5 seasons of over 200 ERA+ (all within that 7 year run). He still has the highest ERA+ in MLB history by a starting pitcher.

So Martinez has 5 of the top 35 (actually 32) pitching seasons of all time in that amazing 7 year run of his. Another one of those seasons he only pitched 117 innings due to injury, but ERA+ would have been 58th all time if he pitched enough innings to qualify. The lowest season of the bunch was a 163 ERA+ season (225th best pitching season of all time according to ERA+) which was his first season in Boston, adjusting to a new league.

That run is utterly incomprehensible. Crapshoot is right. During that run, Pedro was the pitcher people imagine Koufax was. For comparison Koufax's ERA+ during his last four season was 159, 187, 160, and 190. Martinez had FIVE seasons during that 7 year run that were better in ERA+ than ANY season Koufax ever had.

Yet people debate whether Koufax's career was long enough to merit being in the Hall.

This is simply another political debate.

Watch out, Tom Emanski!!! :D

And yet no one is debating Pedro's merits for the Hall ;).

...that he had a 7 year run in 5 years? ;)

SI

Five years actually :lol:

I'm with JIMGA here. But, after looking through some post history, we've agreed on this for at least 3 years (and there are some posts where Bucc and I say the same thing, too) so it's not exactly a recent thing:

Front Office Football Central - View Single Post - Greg Maddux

SI

FOX Sports reports that the Detroit Tigers have acquired catcher Gerald Laird from the Rangers for Double-A right-hander Guillermo Moscoso and a second prospect.

Moscoso was rated the 10th best Tigs prospect. History of shoulder problems. Ways away from the big team.

Laird is solid defensivley, and meh offensivley, but considering our situation, I like it.

Hopefully we make a move for Kerry Wood, and sign something at SS (sounds like Adam Everett) Wheoever the SS is is a one year player until Cale Iorg is ready, so just get a guy who can play defense at this point, and sure up the pen.

Probably the best bet for Detroit is .500 next season, but then some more money is off the books, and we can go from there.

:o, should be 1997 as the starting date.

Whoops. My bad. Corrected :lol:

SI

Your newest Hall of Famer, Joe Gordon. Here are his comparables. Ugh.
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3754618

1. Jose Valentin (902)
2. Bret Boone (900)
3. Jorge Posada (891)
4. Adrian Beltre (890)
5. Vern Stephens (890)
6. Javy Lopez (890)
7. Bill Nicholson (889)
8. Doug DeCinces (883)
9. Ken Caminiti (881)
10. Kirk Gibson (880)

SI

Still no Santo... Sigh...

It does seem like an odd choice.

He did finish top 10 in the MVP voting 5 times (winning once), and apparently (wiki is my only source) was known for his defense. So he's at least something better than those guys on the baseball reference comparison

I imagine there weren't many second baseman putting up numbers like that back then.

Tigers are about to sign Adam Everett, to give us a Herculean offensively gifted left side of our infield, along with Inge.

Honestly though, he'll platoon with Santiago for a year until Cale Iorg can hopefully go, then, if Dombrowski and co. are to be believed, we won't need to worry about SS for the next ten years.

Now the Tigs are looking at JJ Putz and Kerry Wood.

If we can add one of them, and then sign one more arm, I'd be more confident of the Tigers to finish .500.

Dola .. Everett signs a 1 year, 1 million dollar deal plus incentives. About what I expected.

They are seriously kickass defensively though. Even if they hit a combined .212

Rumors have it that the Red Sox and Angels have discussed trading one of the Angels' young C (Mathis or Napoli) for one of Boston's young arms (Masterson or Bucholz). Not sure I buy it, since I don't see one team wanting to help the other unless they had no other options for the holes they are trying to fill.

Also, angelsbaseball.com is reporting the Angels are interested in Kawakami in Japan to replace Garland in the rotation.

No chance you'll get Masterson or Buccholz for Mathis or Napoli. The Sox balked at that price for Teagarden/Saltalamacchia. I also agree that a deal between the two teams would be difficult to pull off.

Also hearing that the Angels are willing to go 8/160 for Teixiera. Wonder if the Sox would match that?

Tigs tried getting Napoli but the price was way too high according to a Tigs writer, which is why they got Laird instead.

I don't actually see the Angels moving Napoli at all. The rumors are probably out there just because other teams have asked, but the Angels won't be interested in moving a good power catcher whose defensive skills improved a lot last season. They would be much more interested in moving Mathis, who has displayed a little bit of power, but is far from the sure thing offensively. He is a better catcher than Napoli, but Naps closed the gap.

My guess is the Red Sox asked the Angels if they would move Naps. The Angels either said no flat out, or countered with Napoli for Masterson and a prospect (the Angels wouldn't move Napoli for Masterson alone, and the Red Sox won't move Masterson for Napoli alone), or countered with Mathis for Bucholz, I would guess. Red Sox, of course, said no to those deals, and since the Angels don't have to move either of them, I guess that's that. Although it will be interesting to see what the Red Sox do behind the plate if they don't get Varitek back. But then, who's going to sign an over the hill catcher coming off of an awful offensive season when signing him now will cost that team picks? I am pretty sure Varitek (and Boras) will come to reality at some point and sign the offer I last heard the Sox offering (2 year, $10 M, I think).

Oh yeah, no official offer yet to Teix from the Halos, but I am certain they have assured Boras they will make one if Teix starts getting offers.

I think if the Sox were smart, they would match that. I am hoping the Angels will be willing to go even higher to bring him back than 8/160 (and I actually think they are willing).

I really can't see Varitek in another uniform next season, not after declining arbitration. I kind of feel like he was locked in for the Sox the minute they offered arb.

I also agree about the Angels - there's no real "need" for them to trade one of their catchers, so they'll have to be impressed with an offer.

Yeah, but the MVP he won (1942), there was NO WAY he should have gotten it. Ted Williams had one of the greatest seasons of all time that year (including winning the Triple Crown and led the league in OBP and SLG [which, granted, wasn't widely known of back then] and got shafted. To put it in context, using OPS+, it was the 21st greatest season a hitter has had in MLB history. He had an OPS+ of 217. Gordon had one of 155. Gordon may have been great defensively, but I can't see him making up that much ground with it.

It helps when you play on the legendary Yankees.

3 years for Casey Blake at 7 million? Meh

Go back and watch game 5 of the 2001? ALDS when an injured Pedro who couldn't touch 90 came out of the bullpen and no-hit Cleveland for 6 innings and tell me he couldn't pitch. Just made it all the better when he he was healthy, but make no mistake, he was changing speeds, locating and keeping hitters off balance as well as Maddux ever did.

Seems like the Mets and K-Rod are set to close on a 3-year, $37 million deal. I voiced some concerns about signing him in the season thread, as the same thread made me familiar with Chief Rum's frustrations about him. But at that price, and more importantly those years, I think it would be a solid deal.

Yeah, that's really not all that bad at all. Wow, if they can swing that, that's pretty decent.

The market has really shrunk this year. I would be begging my owner to free up $20M+ this year since the deals out there are really good right now. You get a lot better bang for your buck this season than in the last 5 or so.

SI

Great deal for the Mets if it goes through. Last year was beyond frustrating watching the bullpen melt down.

Now if we could only ship Heilman's ass out of town.

Tigs and M's are in talks for J.J Putz. When he's healthy he is as good as anyone, but who knows his health.

Still, I don't think we have what it takes to get him without dealing Porcello, Crosby or Iorg, or so I hope anyway.

Royals GM is now quoted as saying that Teahan is off the block. If they need to make room to land one of the free agent shortstops, Guillen would be the trade bait.

It's a much better deal than had been proposed/suggested by K-Rod & his agent before free agency, and I hope the Mets and K-Rod do well with it.

All that said, get ready for some serious hair pulling situations and extreme frustration. And frankly I will be very interested to see how Franky reacts the first time he is taken to task by the New York media for the usual BS he brings, where he doesn't even seem to try until he gets two runners on.

Chicago sports radio is reporting Peavy to the Cubs is "imminent."

Man I hope this happens.

Sounds like Wood is off to the Indians.

According to MLB.com's Anthony Castrovince, the Indians appear closer to a two-year deal with Kerry Wood. The deal may contain a third-year option.

Considering Wagner had no problem allowing runners on, and then was still ineffective, I'll look forward to the improvement :)!

And to think that four months ago K-Rod was the greatest closer in the game.

C.C. Sabathia Rumors: Tuesday
By Tim Dierkes [December 9 at 1:45pm CST]

1:45pm: Tony Jackson's heard word that Giants officials are "supremely confident" they're going to sign Sabathia.

ESPN - Source: Chicago Cubs not 'remotely close' to deal for Jake Peavy

If the Giants get CC, I see another Zito like disaster. Once he gets paid, I can see him getting up to 320 + lbs. Should be interesting though. I definetly think he doesn't want to leave the NL though.

The spin coming from all these teams is becoming comical.

According to Baseball Prospectus' John Perrotto:

Jason Giambi appears headed back to the Athletics as a free agent, and an announcement could come at the meetings as the first baseman/designated hitter lives in Las Vegas.

Interesting move here. Giambi still has power and has an approach at the plate Beane loves. I guess I need to see the financials, but the A's seem to be bandied about more with free agents then in years past.

2:25pm: The saga continues...Kevin Towers does not think this deal lost steam in the last 24 hours, according to Yahoo's Tim Brown and Gordon Edes. However, they say the Cubs are having second thoughts about this four-team mess. The Cubs source says the price is too steep for them right now and they're looking at another short-term option for the rotation (Randy Johnson maybe).

This is truly the silly season. No point in living and dying with each mlbtraderumors.com update.

Official.

Hopefully we can pull off the rumored deal of Heilman plus another player to Colorado for Street, and then sign one more reliever.

Word. Thanks for the draft picks!

Landing Street for the 8th and then maybe signing Juan Cruz would be amazing.

I'll just chime in that this sucks. I was actually getting excited about baseball again. Jays are in a division with the ALCS representative, PLUS the Red Sox and Yankees... they had a decent team last year, and were going to either keep Burnett or replace him with a good pitcher, as well as acquire a big bat.

Now it seems as if they'll lose Burnett, and not sign a big bat at all. Great. :(

The Reds are trying to corner the Hernandez market today. They traded Ryan Freel to the Orioles for Ramon and then signed Livan. Ramon will likely platoon at catcher with Hanigan and Livan is a pretty classic wash out pitcher Jocketty sign.

I don't see this as an improvement actually. Wagner has been as good as, if not better than, K-Rod over the past 5-6 years.

Wagner was beyond awful last year, and is out for 2009. How is that not an improvement?

The Reds have not signed Livan Hernandez. Apparently the reporter from Seattle got confused over which Hernandez was going to the Reds. Thus far they have not signed Livan.

Damnit. I just bought 200 shares of Hernandez hoping fora runup.

Seriously? I'm not sure how a pitcher with a 2.30 ERA and a sub-1.00 WHIP can be considered beyond awful.

Wagner allowed a ton fewer baserunners last year than Rodriguez. Their strikeout numbers were similar, but Wagner allowed fewer hits/9 and had a much better K/BB ratio. Obviously Wagner isn't an option for this year, but K-Rod won't be that much of an upgrade for the Mets over previous years.

Good thing numbers don't tell the full story. I watched Wagner pitch every game. His fastball had slowed and his slider didn't bite like it used to. He also had the habit of being completely off from the second he stepped foot on the mound, and wouldn't be able to recover until the game was lost. There's no one guy more responsible for the Mets not making the playoffs. The fucker blew 3 saves in 5 days -- 3 straight opportunities.

Saves might be a bullshit stat, but 7 blown saves in 34 opportunities is very telling.

I gave up right around here. 99% of the time somebody says this, the numbers do tell the full story.

Look, I think this is a pretty good deal for the Mets. I just don't think that the K-Rod of 2007-2008 is any better at all than what a healthy Billy Wagner would have given you. If you're looking for comfortable 1-2-3 saves, Rodriguez is not the guy to hang your hat on.

From someone who watched K-Rod pitch a lot, I can assure you that his # of saves are not the whole story. He's a regression back to the mean away from being just as average as Wagner. I can't remember many 1-2-3 innings or even 1-2-3-4 innings for that matter.

Personally, I wouldn't be happy paying any more than 5 mil a season, and I'm very glad the Angels didn't bite.

Awesome, and since there is no such thing, why is this even being discussed?

Of his 76 appearances in 2008
25 without allowing a baserunner
2 games pitching 1 inning while facing 3 batters (GIDP's)
19 allowing 1 baserunner (aka "1-2-3-4 inning")
2 allowing 2 baserunners but facing 4 batters with 1 IP (GIDP's)

Total of 48 (of 76) appearances

IIRC, you compared him to Wagner initially. I was responding to that.

So 28, more than 1/3 of his appearances, he allowed at least two runners and faced 5 or more batters? lol...good stats to find, Jon.

Love K-Rod's heart and fire and what he did in 2002. At that price for those results, I don't miss him. Good to see my eyes tell the same story the numbers do.

Wait, so you're actually an Angels fan, too? I figured with all the stuff I talk about with the Angels, you would have responded by now, so I assumed you're a Dodgers fan.

It would be nice if I didn't have to carry the Halos' banner alone. ;)

Oh, and I 100% agree with you.

Yes, in response to CR saying:


So if he's first effective after allowing runners to reach, and Wagner isn't effective after allowing runners to reach, that's the improvement I'm talking about :).

22 appearances of 5 batters or more, and unless I miscounted one somewhere the rest should be appearances with more than one baserunner in less than one inning of work.

Actually, I thought Logan's response was pretty funny at the time (and still do). I'll take back partly my agreement with bhhloy. I WOULD have paid K-Rod $5 M. That's not that much in the baseball scheme of things.

Seven figures, though? No way. I have nothing against the Mets or K-Rod, and as I said before, I hope it works out great for them. I'm also glad he's in thge other league in the furthest division he could get. But the realist in me says there is a lot of room for "regret" in the deal he just signed, and I am quite happy we didn't give him the same (and we actually offered it to him, or close to it, back when he and his agent were deluded in thinking they could get more).

76-48, didn't you put up? That's 28.

Oh never mind. I forgot about the less than one inning appearances.

That's still a lot.

NY Post reporting that CC Sabathia has accepted the Yankees' offer.

CC SABATHIA PICKS YANKEES - New York Post

Other outlets reporting on the Post report, so no true independent confirmation yet.

Thanks man!


Yeah, when average setup guys are being paid in that range, you can't tell me K-Rod isn't worth $2-3MM more.


(assume you mean 8 figures) I totally see where you're coming from; hell, I said your comments throughout the season were the primary reason why I was hesitant about getting him in the first place. For the same reason that you're able to paint a better picture of his performance than the average fan would see by looking at his numbers, I can do the same with Wagner -- that was my point in the last few posts. Look, the money doesn't matter. The Mets are basically printing it these days and will never NOT go after a player because they have $12MM tied up in K-Rod. But they would possibly stay away from upgrading that position if someone became available in 2010 if they had him on the books for 3 more years instead of 1, if he had gotten the original 5 year deal (plus a possible option) he wanted. Barring a catastrophic drop in performance, he should be fine for this short deal.

But.. but.. he has a home out on the West Coast and he liked his time in Milwaukee. I just can't believe he took the highest offer.

I'm... I'm.. I'm just shocked. I mean, who saw that coming?

LOL!

Everybody wants the "lights out" 1-2-3 closer, and he just doesn't exist. I think Angles fans are underrating K-Rod quite a bit.

What's funny is listening to Yankee fans who, just yesterday when it seemed like Sabathia really was going to end up out west, said things along the lines of "He's not that good anyway!", "He doesn't deserve a deal like Santana!", "He's going to be 350 lbs in Year 3 of that deal!", etc...and now they all have to backpedal.

BTW, this just got me thinking, and maybe I'm completely wrong...but aren't there very few Yankee fans on this board, at least comparitively speaking? Unless they have just been very quiet since their last WS title, I can't think of many off the top of my head.

Kind of my original point...Mariano still qualifies, Papelbon does too...then you have guys who have come close to fitting recently but are still unproven long term. Putz, Lidge, Jenks probably fit into that second tier? And even Lidge...perfect in save chances all year...but I saw a decent number of Phillies games and he was definitely far from lights out, and many saves came after an adventure.

Here is hoping that C.C. is known as Hideki Irabu II.

I would love to see the Yank-mees payroll hit $400 million and they win 72 games. :)

7-years and 160 million.

Wow.

What will be higher...CC's weight or the Yankees Payroll in millions?

By signing F-Rod, the Mets have guaranteed that their young players will be able to "see" a World Series ring before they retire.

:D

I'm a Yankee fan, but I'm primarily a lurker. I'm also not an annoying Yankee fan who thinks that if the Yankees lose, it's because of some massive conspiracy. I'm also not one of those fans who sit there and whine when the Yankees don't get their person and take a stupid dig at the player. If I do take a dig, it has nothing to do if the player is with the Yankees or not. (I do take issue with Red Sox fans, though, at least the obnoxious bandwagon ones that have suddenly appeared since 2004. But the real bad ones seem to be those who just became fans. I have a hard time taking issue with the team. I particularly like the Red Sox younger players. Varitek, though--a tool Ortiz--still bitter over the fact that Steinbrenner could have had him).
That having been said, I do think Sabathia is going to balloon to 350 lbs in year 3 of the Yankee contract. I don't think he's worth the 7 year, 160 million dollar deal. And I'm not sure if he'll be able to take the "We think we're better than you cuz we're in NY" NY media.

Sounds like Furcal is down to LA and KC. Moore has already said that Aviles would move to 2B if the Royals were able to sign Furcal.

We must clone this lurker and replace the rest of those tools with him! :)

Unlike the rash of Yankee fans who suddenly appeared since 1998.

Updates on Yankee deals:

The $160MM Sabathia deal reportedly includes an opt-out clause after 2011. He will have been paid $69MM for those 3 years by then.

They are reportedly also close to signing Derek Lowe to a 4 year, $66MM deal.

I'm not sure which is worse.

One post, and I already like the local FOFC Yanks fanbase more than the FOFC Red Sox fanbase! :D

I stand by my claim that Sabathia is going to be 350 lbs by year 3. The dude is so fat already, and his waist just keeps expanding. Now multiply that by 10 with all the money he is getting.

Oh man this will be sweet.

I loved the Francouer for Greinke rumor that came out of the Boston Globe yesterday. I can't believe real beat writers are allowed to report these sorts of things.

SI

BJ Ryan 5/$47
Joe Nathan 4/$47
Francisco Cordero 4/$46
Mariano Rivera 3/$45
Billy Wagner (older) 4/$42
Brad Lidge 3/$37.5

Like I posted already. I can't believe the deals that can be had this year when you're comparing this year to the last 2 years. You can get a great bargain, players at 2/3rds the cost they were over the past couple of years. I'll have a post about this in a little bit.

Where does KRod fit in compared to those deals?

SI

Derek Lowe + Yankee Infield = Death by 1000 Ground Balls

I'll believe it when I see it- if he goes after him, we have a decent shot but I'm not sure money is available. Not only that but no one is taking on Guillen in this market. Also, I think the market for Furcal is about 6 teams deep. That said, I'd love to see him in the Royals lineup. Still, defensive stats, admittedly in their infancy, are showing that Aviles was halfways decent at SS so it's not the gaping hole people thought.

SI

Were I the GM of a mid-market team, I would definitely push to sign as many people as possible this offseason. Of course, your owner might not comply, but you could really do well for yourself with some of the numbers that have been floated over the last couple of days.

Nathan and Rivera--worth it. They shut their opponents down. When they come in, you get that "game over" feeling. I don't really get that with the other relievers, and I know firsthand you don't get that with K-Rod.

All that said, yeah, this year's depressed market certainly helped the Mets get a good deal next to past year's dealings for closers.

man...CC is gonna get HUGE in NYC. Not only all the $$, but all the good food he's gonna be eating...sheeyit.

oh, and i really hope lowe doesn't go to the yankees. would be sad to see that from the perspective of a sox fan, a member of that team signing with the Yankees (and no, Damon doesn't count. he was a rent-a-player, unlike Lowe, who had been with the Sox for years+years)

Here are all the "big" contracts from the last 2 years, vaguely by position (P, IF, OF).

Lilly 4/40
Meche 5/55
Pavano 4/40
Suppan 4/42
Silva 4/48
Kuroda 3/35
Matsuzaka 6/52 (+51M posting, 6/103 really)
Batista 3/25
Eaton 3/24
Marquis 3/21
Schmidt 3/46
Zito 7/126
Burnett? Lowe? Sheets? Perez?
Closers? Fuentes? Wood?

Posada 4/52
Lugo 4/36
Huff 3/20
Garciaparra 2/18.5
Durham 2/14
Teixiera? Fucal? Hudson? Cabrera?

Guillen 3/36
A Jones 2/36
Fukodome 4/48
Rowand 5/60
Hunter 5/90
Pierre 5/44
Matthews 5/50
Soriano 8/136
Lee 6/100
Edmonds 2/19
Manny? Dunn? Burrell? Ibanez? Bradley? Abreu?

Just out of curiousity, I'm pretty sure the deals from this year are going to end up in the much lower side of the spectrum compared to their talent level.

SI

Hell, I'd love Dunn at 3/36 or Sheets and Burrell at the couple of numbers I've seen around. Heck, I wouldn't even mind guaranteeing that extra year if it's at a depressed level. The one caveat to all this is that it looks like CC and Tex will get theirs but everyone else is a level cheaper than in year's past.

SI

And don't get me wrong- I know exactly what you mean. We have a "game over" closer- it's just that he doesn't get the attention the larger ones get. Oh, and we just locked him up for 3 years with 3 more years of club options :D

SI

Yeah, I like Soriano. He's a good one. He needs to pitch longer to get the rep you're giving him, but he's well on his way.

I am actually reasonably certain the Angels' pen will blow less saves next year than the Mets. Shields and Arredondo will get first shot, and both seem steadier. Then we have a fireballer in Kevin Jepsen who is being groomed, and will probably be in one of the key setup roles. And we have Kelvim Escobar as likely headed for the pen for the rest of 2009 when he heals up from his surgery.

So I'm not too worried about losing K-Rod. I think we could be better than last year.