J.D. Drew is now the answer to a trivia question: who's the only player in baseball history to be involved in two separate teams hitting four straight home runs?

All four were absolutely crushed, I don't think Manny's had landed before Lowell's was launched.

Chase Wright has a future.. in selling Vinyl siding.

(5th time in MLB history 4 straight homers, 2nd time the same pitcher gave it up)

I think, though, the one thing forgotten is that Matsuzaka also got lit up. He won't be going up against pitchers like Wright much more in the season. Pitched well before hand, but no support from the offense. Now the offense wakes up and he gets hammered.

Matt Cain took a 1-hit shutout into the 9th, ended up settling for a CG 3 hitter and a 2-1 victory. Great pitching, another Bonds homer and a great play by Durham to end it. After a rough opening stretch, the Giants look like a pretty decent team at 9-8. And Tim Lincecum is basically forcing his way onto the big club (18.2 IP, 28K, 5BB, 0.00 ERA, 0.75 WHIP).

The Yankees can do that to any pitcher in baseball, though. He had 7 k's and 1 walk, which isn't bad. The Yankees just hit the ball well tonight.

Joe Torre has used Pettitte twice out of bullpen following his regular start and were not out of April yet. They'll have to trade for a rested bullpen at the deadline if this keeps up.

Yay, Matt Cain... so far I'm looking pretty good picking him up as early as I did in my fantasy league ;).

*knocks on wood*

Joe Torre is notorious for killing his bullpen. He's been doing it for years. It's one of the reasons I was not happy the Phillies went after Gordon. He picks out 3 guys every year - Rivera being the only one who's been able to deal with it - and runs them into the ground. Scott Proctor will be throwing up 5+ ERAs and spending some quality time on the DL in a year or two. Just ask Paul Quantrill.

Wasn't he pissed that the Cubs had the gall to send him to Iowa in the first place?

Prior and Wood make me look 'normal.' Or at least, not injury-prone. :D

/tk

:eek:

A-Rod now has 14 homers in 18 games. This is absolutely incredible. And the Yanks ended up losing. A-Rod winning the MVP and the Yanks missing the playoffs with A-Rod opting out at the end of the year is looking better and better (*knock on wood*) ;)

As sad as it sounds, that scenario would probably top last year's Tigers season as the greatest baseball season of my life. I'm praying Wang hurts himself again, or maybe his lack of strikeout ability finally catches up to him, and Mussina continues to underperform.

Unfortunately, by June 1 they'll probably be in 1st place. But we can dream, right?

I'm with you on this one. I'm thinking the Yankees will be looking to buy some starters at the trade deadline.

I think they're going to need starters AND relievers. Torre is doing as awful job yet again with his bullpen. To some extent, he can't help it because his starters have been so bad. But he continues to use the same guys over and over and is going to kill any effectiveness they might have. Proctor pitched 12 times in the first 17 games; 8 of the last 12. There was no reason to pull Chase Wright after the inning he gave up the 4 HRs; I would have at least sent him out there to start the 4th and see what happens. At some point, you've just got to leave your starters in there and let them get beat to a pulp - take one for the team. Ruining your good relievers and continuing to rely on Bruney, Viscaino, Myers, Henn, etc. (all of whom have been in at least half of the Yankees games already!) has got to seriously backfire on them - right?!

They called up Phillip Hughes today, a few months, if not a full season before they wanted to. Their offense will still get them in the wild card at the very least. They've scored more runs through 18 games than any team since the '94 A's. But they're going to have tough time in August/September/October because this bullpen is going to fall apart.

Wang starts today, but he will probably regress to an ERA at or above 4. He certainly won't match last year's numbers, but he doesn't really need to. Mussina probably comes back later next week, but in '06 he had an ERA that was a run below what it had been in '04 and '05. Pettitte will be Pettitte, solid and consistent. Igawa just looks bad. Those that pegged him as middle relief look to be right thus far. He's given up 5hr and 9 walks in just over 20 innings.

The pitching is enough to win 95 games with their offense. Torre and Cashman seem to be desperate not to fall too far behind the Red Sox while they wait on their rotation to solidify. They'll get some consistency, but not what they got out of a couple guys last season.

Jeremy Bonderman has got to be one of the worst 1st-inning pitchers of all-time. Good pitchers, that is. This is going on purely anecdotal evidence, but I swear, it seems like every other game, he's down 2-4 runs by the end of the 1st inning. It's probably not that dramatic, but I can't be imagining it, either.

A-Rod's assault on the HR record for April has probably got nothing on Seattle's assault on the record for most postponed games in April. Counting today, they've had 5 originally-scheduled games snowed/rained out.

And really, that number is technically 9, because they had the back-ends of 2 doubleheaders, rescheduled from the games they lost to the snow, canceled that first weekend in Cleveland, then an entire doubleheader of makeup games that Monday canceled as well. So including both scheduled and makeup games, they've had 9 games canceled already!

WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!

EAT IT ANGELS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Haha!!! "K-Rod". Stupidest nickname, other than "King" Felix, in baseball.

It's not over, but damn, this comeback has been awesome.

Have some class.

I hate Todd Jones. Not as a human, but as a closer. Right now, anyway.

Why the hell isn't the job Zumaya's?

I heard its because he wants to play his own entrance song using guitar hero.

Bah, I sound like an idiot now.

Jones is a pile of garbage.

Bullpen roles have become so codified and rigidly defined since the definition and subsequent popularization of the Save rule that the "closer" is now almost exclusively saved for 9th innings rather than any critical situation in the latter part of the game (or the occasional blowout if he hasn't had much work lately). There are a lot of key situations in games in the 6th, 7th and 8th innings that have a large part in shaping the outcome of a game - these are known as "high-leverage" situations. And while logic and common baseball strategy prior to the the popularization of the Save rule would dictate you use your bullpen ace in these situations, that's not managing by "the book" in current baseball strategy.

In order to both placate player and fan expectations and more effectively manage relief situations, it appears that some managers are placing their most effective relievers in "setup" roles that allow the manager to use them in critical 6th, 7th and 8th inning "high-leverage" situations before handing the game over in the 9th to the "closer". Leyland seems to be doing this with Zumaya and Bobby Cox appears to be doing this with Soriano and Gonzalez.

Checking Fangraphs, it appears that Jones on average is used in more high-leverage situations, but not by much. Not surprisingly, Zumaya's greater effectiveness has resulted in him posting a higher Win Probability Added than Jones.

The next time I go to Seattle, we need to have drinks or lunch or something.

After giving up 6 more runs in three innings tonight, Mark Redman's ERA is now just a tick over 10. Between him & Davies, the Braves have to start looking for ways to get at least one more starter if they believe they're a legit contender for at least the division.

Sure, let me know.

Memo to Marlin pitchers


THROW A FUCKING STRIKE!

Thanks

0-0 between the Rockies and Mets after 9. Rocks go up 1 on a triple by their kid SS whose name I can't pronounce or type (but he looks like a hell of a player).

Two outs, two strikes, and Damian Easley ties it up with a bomb to center. His 2nd hit of the season, both HRs.

The Mets have been great at finding a different utility guy to step in and have an impact every year.

Tulowitski looks great defensively.

I jumped out of my chair when Easley hit the homer. Then was ready to turn the game off when I saw Willie sent Shoeneweis out for the 11th.

Watching the Yankees lose every night is so much fun. I'm going to enjoy it while it lasts.

And Endy Chavez drag-bunts in the winning run.

Congrats for kicking our asses Reds!

Glad to help out.

Man, I was all excited to settle in and watch a Mets day game.

IT's 9-0 in the fourth :(

They don't have a 10-run rule, though, so you'll still be able to see the last 5 innings. :cool:

nice.

9-0 and the Rockies are attempting to sacrifice bunt.

I really hope Helton or Holiday gets drilled.

Pelfrey needs to learn how to throw a changeup. Right now he's fastball/slider and thats it.

http://sports.myway.com/news/04252007/v9550.html

CHICAGO (AP) -Oft-injured Cubs pitcher Mark Prior will miss the entire 2007 season after surgery on his right shoulder, the biggest setback yet in his once-promising career.

The 26-year-old Prior had surgery Tuesday by noted orthopedist Dr. James Andrews in Birmingham, Ala. Andrews also worked on Prior's rotator cuff.

Prior has been beset by injuries since his first full season in the majors in 2003, when he almost pitched Chicago into its first World Series since 1945.

Prior was not on the Cubs' active roster to start the year and was optioned to Triple-A Iowa after a poor spring training. He instead went to extended spring training in Arizona, but pitched only two innings there April 12 before reporting discomfort in his shoulder.

The right-hander went to Dr. Lewis Yocum in California before going to see Andrews, who told Prior last October he had genetic looseness in his shoulder joints.

Prior is 42-29 with a 3.51 ERA in the majors. He made just nine starts last year for the Cubs after three trips to the disabled list and took a slight pay cut this season, from $3.65 million to $3.575 million.

So does Prior retire now?

Who is this Zumaya guy anyway? I just read two or three posts/articles that mentioned him today.

Joel Zumaya

Fireballing right-hander, throws harder more often than any other pitcher in the game.

Fascinating video analysis of Russ Ortiz and why he's pitching better this year:

hxxp://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/mechanics/discussion/quick_mechanics_take_russ_ortiz/

Joel Zumaya, he of Guitar Hero elbow last year in the playoffs :)

SI

Lincecum is amazing. Everybody knew he could miss bats, but what's impressing me is that he's walking less people so far in AAA than he was in college. If he can keep his walk rate from getting out of hand, there's no reason to think he can't be one of the top starters in the game (other than injury concerns of course).

FWIW, the bullpen mechanics guy has no issues with his mechanics...Tim Lincecum mechanics analyzed

Interesting stuff. I hope the Giants can resist the desire to bring him up too quickly. His latest start on Monday was 6.1IP 6BB 4K 1ER. Current totals 3-0 0.36ERA 25.0IP 9H 11BB 32K at Triple-A.

He sure looks a lot better without that spare tire he was carrying around. Ortiz was my favorite Giants pitcher before he was traded away. It is great to see him doing well for SF again.

Yeah, CBW did some good stuff - he talked about Lincecum right when he had been drafted and loved him.

Lincecum is the great white hope for us Giants fans - Lincecum, Cain, pray for rain. :D

I like Brandon Morrow, but I get the feeling the M's will regret they passed on Lincecum.

Wow. It's like the guy is jumping at the plate with his long leg stretch. Throwing 97mph and a big stride at you sounds pretty scary for the batter.

WTH do the Dallas Stars have to do with baseball?




;)

"No pitchers were harmed in the making of this game.

Except Joel Zumaya.

He had it coming."

Hardest I've ever laughed at a game's credits.

Apparently Joel Zumaya didn't know who he was tonight, either.

Todd Jones saves Zumaya's ass. Ain't that rich?

Wow, Jake Peavy strikes out 9 in a row. One short of Seaver's MLB record of 10. The 10th batter? A walk which missed by an inch of being a 10th straight K.

Arggg. I can't believe that shit. Peavy pitches a gem and Hoffman loses it to a weak hitting SS. :mad:

And now you know why Jones is the closer. Experience > youth.

And talent+ability > experience, which is why Zumaya is a better pitcher than Jones despite Jones' status as the 'closer'.

Genetic looseness? Never heard that one before.

I have met some women who qualify as having genital looseness.

I'm sure Jim Leyland knows more about this than you do.

Peavy was a victim of the dreaded universal no-exceptions 120-pitch count limit that everyone seems to have arbitrarily agreed upon. A shame, because he was actually showing zero signs of fatigue.

Zumaya is a better pitcher than Todd Jones. "Experienced" closer is one of the most overvalued things in baseball, however. Add to that the fact that Leyland sticks with whatever role he gives a player until he absolutely has to make a change and that is why Zumaya isn't the closer yet.

Experience didn't help Bob Wickman when he gave up 4 runs in the 9th yesterday without getting an out. Experienced pitchers have bad nights, too. Talented pitchers have less bad nights.

Managers that stick with experience over talent is what costs teams ballgames.

This whole bloody sock thing is bizarre. It's not like the damn thing was thrown in the wash the next day - it's in the HoF! Why would someone (either Thorne or Mirabelli) lie about it?

The Giants have now won 7 in a row, despite the lowest OBP in baseball. The pitching has been Santana-esque, allowing an ERA below 3 in the streak.

Yeah, he does. That said, there are some tremendous pressures that have built up over the last 20 years or more to make it next very, very difficult for managers to buck the current "book" on how to manage your bullpen - i.e., closer is saved for 9th inning save situations, setup guys have to deal with critical situations that arise prior to the 8th inning (and many times in the 8th inning as well with closers thought of as 1-inning guys that have to be saved for the 9th).

The creation of the Save rule and it's acceptance as a valid and valued stat (which is a mistake) by those surrounding the game has created a culture that over values the current definition of "closer" while also creating expectations among players about how they are used. Buck that prevailing wisdom and you risk being 2nd guessed constantly (witness the experiments Boston has tried in the last few years with their bullpen roles and the resulting fallout). You also risk alienating players that expect certain usage, as well as pressure from agents who bank on their clients getting save chances they can then use to negotiate richer contracts.

Prior to the popularization of the Save rule and in particular LaRussa's development of heavily specialized bullpen roles, baseball wisdom dictated that your bullpen "ace" came in to critical situations as early as the 6th or 7th innings - closers often pitched 2-3 innings. Managers knew that critical game situations often happen earlier than the 9th inning, so it made sense to bring in your best reliever in those spots. Bases loaded, 1 out with your team up by a run in the 7th inning is a tougher spot than the start of the 9th inning up by 1 run when you start with nobody on base. All this stuff about the 9th inning having some kind of mystique is highly over rated - yeah, it may carry a little extra "oomph" because it's the last chance, but that difference gets wildly exaggerated by many.

Also exaggerated is the 'difficulty' of finding guys that can perform the closer role. If you have the stuff and perform well in the 7th and 8th innings, it's highly likely you'll do just as well in the 9th inning. Yeah, a few guys struggle with transition. But you also see examples all the time of mediocre pitchers that do a decent job as closers - Todd Jones being a prime example.

A savvy manager that also doesn't feel like fully bucking the current conventional wisdom about bullpen roles can do so by placing in key setup roles his most talented relievers so that they can deal with the high-leverage situations that arise in the 7th and 8th innings while setting the table for the closer to work a bases-empty situation in the 9th. This works best when the most talented reliever is a young pitcher and you have a vet that has been a closer for a while regardless of actual talent level - you can keep the young buck in the setup role because he hasn't yet "earned" the closer job, and if the "proven vet" does a good enough job you can keep the young buck from champing too hard at the bit at being promoted.

I would argue this is what Leyland is doing in Detroit - if you look at the numbers closely, Zumaya has been used in nearly as many high-leverage situations over the last 2 seasons as Jones has, and his performance has exceeded Jones in terms of contributing towards Tigers' wins. Bobby Cox may also be doing the same thing in Atlanta this year with Soriano and Gonzalez setting up Wickman - they are both clearly more talented pitchers than Wickman, but Wickman is the "proven vet". Given that Gonzalez has a year's experience as a closer and done the job well, I'm not sure how long Cox can keep him out of that role for the Braves, but as long as Wickman can get by with smoke and mirrors his plan is working. You could also argue that Hargrove was doing a similar thing in Seattle with Putz and Soriano setting up Guardado, but that didn't last long as Guardado couldn't get the job done and Putz was lights-out, forcing Hargrove's hand.

If you want to spend a little more time reading about this subject, here is a good jumping off point for discussion.

Holy crap, I'm not reading all that. :)

And another Blue Jay on the DL. Zaun out 6-8 weeks with a broken hand.

Glaus
Ryan
Johnson
Zaun

My head hurts.

Dawgfan, I nearly died of old age reading your save rant, but you still complete me.

Seriously, I have ranted about everything in there myself, almost word for word. I HATE HATE HATE HATE the fucking save/closer culture in MLB. It's almost complete nonsense. When I rule the world, I will get to ending hunger and human suffering in due time, but the first thing I'm tackling is the save rule. And by the way, no more of this "coming in with a three-run lead, give up two runs, and still get credited with a save" crap. You can kiss that goodbye mere seconds after I'm in power.

After that I'll tackle the "every pitcher gets tired at the 120-pitch mark with no exceptions, and any manager that allows a guy to throw 121 is fired" accepted wisdom.

Short answer is yes, Leyland knows more about managing a team than I do, and I think his use of Zumaya in a setup role to handle all the tough 7th and 8th inning situations that arise is his way of subtly bucking the current save rule/closer culture in effect in baseball. Just because he has Jones slotted as the "closer" and Zumaya as the top "setup" guy doesn't mean he doesn't think Zumaya is the better pitcher...

Some things require a detailed explanation to do them justice. It's one of my pet peeves with modern short attention-span culture, but I'm 37, so I guess that makes me a geezer and grumpiness on this issue is allowed.

Yeah, I don't think every pitcher should be held to this rule. Knuckleballers for obvious reasons (there's not as much strain on the arm throwing primarily knucklers), and vet pitchers that have displayed good endurance and healthy arms (Randy Johnson being a prime example).

That said, there's evidence that throwing 120+ pitches at the very least leads to less effective outings the next time out, and at worst, doing so chronically could be damaging to a pitcher's health, especially younger pitchers.

I think we can agree that rigid thinking is a bad thing.

This is quality. :)

I agree. I think both guys are very important and its a great setup as long as Jones can still get guys out.

Ouch. A little dig at those of us who don't feel like reading long posts. I suppose what you have to say is really important and I should pay you more attention. :rolleyes:

Seriously, why reply with 6 paragraphs to a conversation that previously was a sentence or two?

I already answered that question - some issues, to do them justice, require elaboration. To do otherwise is to short-change meaningful discussion. I don't really care whether you pay more attention to my position or not - that's your choice. But I'm not going to apologize for providing a thought-out post on this subject (or any subject really).

Heaven forbid somebody reply with reasoning and the logic they've used behind it to back it up. Fine if you don't want to read it, but why call out somebody for not just voicing an opinion, but giving people a glimpse into why their opinion is that way, potentially opening doors for further civil discussion into the matter. Provided it's not a 6 page rant full of name calling, why not as opposed to why?

When you made a stupid statement, Dawgfan explained to you repeatedly why you were wrong, and took the patience to do it a lot more nicely than I (or a few others here) would have. Having the attention span of a 10-year old isn't always a good thing.

I think you do care, otherwise you wouldn't have mentioned the short attention-span culture. And I'm not looking for an apology.

Amusingly enough, Zumaya's LI is fairly close to Jones' - but probably for the wrong reasons. Someday, somewhere, a manager will have the balls to use his best reliever in the highest leverage situations, paying fuck all attention to saves. I'm guessing it won't happen for a while, though Terry Francona has shown an admirable tendency towards doing so.

As I said, our short attention-span culture is a pet peeve of mine. That doesn't mean I care much whether you pay attention to me or not.

Yeah, what's too bad is that Leyland probably has as much leverage as any manager out there to buck this trend, both given his history of bullpen usage (didn't always have a defined "closer" in Pittsburgh) and his success as a manager.

I'd say Oakland would be a likely spot to see this trend bucked, except that Beane has profited from taking OK pitchers, putting them in a closer role where they can rack up saves and drive up their value and then dealing them before the cost gets too high for Oakland to keep and to profit off of that value inflation. Leave it to Beane to figure out a way to make the "closer culture" work to his advantage.

I was going to question this part, but it would look like I had something against you. I don't, so I'll just sneak out of the thread. :)

Question all you want - I love a good debate. Really, I rarely take anything personally on message boards, so we're good. If my theory here is wrong, I'd love to know it - knowing the truth is far more important to me than never being proven wrong.

Ok, that's cool then. I am not aware of Beane turning an OK pitcher into a closer, outside of Izzy. I did not think the motivation of that move was to "rack up saves and drive up their value and then dealing them before the cost gets too high for Oakland". If you've seen otherwise, an example would be great. I remember Koch, Dotel and Foulke were already closers when they came to Oakland.

Billy Taylor before him, Billy Koch after him, Keith Foulke was extracted, to say nothing about Hudson Street (who's probably the 3rd best reliever in the A's pen - IMO, the Duke is no 1). A closer like Mariano Riviera, Joe Nathon or Papelbon is brilliant - but 80% of the league's closers are fairly fungible.

Billy Taylor and Jason Isringhausen were my primary examples. Billy Koch was churned for Keith Foulke. Foulke was part of another strategy of Beane's - to let type A free agents walk so as to get draft pick compensation. Octavio Dotel was primarily a setup guy in Houston, as was Arthur Rhodes in Seattle, and though neither of those moves worked out as Beane had hoped I think they also fit his ideas of slotting a non-closer (or obscure pitcher) into the role to inflate their value for trade purposes or free agent draft pick compensation.

I would also agree that Street is probably not Oakland's top reliever, though placing him in that role (IMO) was a deviation from previous strategies by Beane.

I agree that he let them walk for the pick after their playoff run. Most closers aren't worth what they want. I think Taylor was the Oakland closer already when Beane took over. But putting in some "OK" pitcher in the 9th to drive up their save totals for trade value seems kind of cooky to me. Especially in a pennant race.

Well you don't want to sabotage a playoff race by putting in someone incapable of doing the job, which is why the A's didn't stick with Rhodes or Dotel for very long when they struggled in the role.

That said, I still think there is a lot of evidence to suggest that the value of saves is over rated, and I think Beane is smart enough to take that inflation of value and make it work to his advantage. That's really what Moneyball was all about - Beane finding things in the game that are over inflated and under valued and recognizing those trends before other teams do so as to maximize his limited payroll.

Giants sweep Dodgers in LA for their 8th straight win. All tied atop the division.

All is good in the world. Armando got 3 straight savers. I'm not sure that hell hasn't started offering ski trips yet.

SWEEP! Glad we could return the favor.

Nice sweep, especially without Zito and Cain pitching. Ortiz really struggled early, but nutted up and gave his team a chance to win.

Not only that, two of them were of the 1-2-3 inning variety. Trade him now :)

Ortiz was a dying liner from real trouble in the inning he escaped with the bases loaded. It's strange...I don't care about the Giants or Ortiz, but I root for him to fail because I don't see any reason why he does well. Same with Wang - although being on the Yankees is reason enough for me to want him to fail.

Zumaya disagrees with anyone who thinks he should be the closer:


"The Tigers were rained out Thursday night, but for Joel Zumaya, there'd been a previous damper.

Specifically, he came face-to-face with being too full of himself -- and with the reality of not being ready for what over-eager fans want his role to be.

"I can tell you I'm not ready to be the closer," he said. "I have a lot to learn. When it comes, it comes, but I'm not in any hurry because I'm not ready yet."

Anyone remember the last time Rivera was pulled from a game?

This is so great.

I love seeing the yankees get crushed

Man, I can't remember the last time a Let's Go Red Sox chant was heard at Yankee Stadium and NOT completely covered by boos and "Lets go Yankees" chants.

I still have to think that they will come back, eventually.

I'd be much happier if they were still struggling like this by June 1. I wonder if Steinbrenner is going to make a change to shake things up. Even though the pitching isn't necessarily Torre's fault, he has done a terrible job over the years managing the bullpen, plus this year the team just seems out of synch and uninspired. I'm betting he wished he had let him go at the end of the season last year.

So when does Torre get fired?

C'mon, this is a baseball thread. It's a place for slow, deliberate things ;)

SI

All this talk about Joel Zumaya makes me want to see if he'll autographed a Guitar Hero II guitar, thereby creating the coolest (ok, nerdiest) sports memorabilia piece ever :D

SI

Ouch. The Yankees starter get hit with a line drive on the very first pitch of the game right on the leg, and only can pitch to one more batter. The Yankees hopes are pinned on Kei Igawa