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I originally heard it on the Miami local news earlier this year. I've also heard it discussed on various local talk radio stations. Did a quick scan and found this article on the net... There is a new dimension in the fierce battle over whether Terri Schiavo's life is worth saving. A federally funded investigation has begun into certain medical judgments made by her husband and guardian, Michael Schiavo, including decisions in recent months. But more important is whether the inquiry will discover what actually caused Terri Schiavo's alleged cardiac arrest in 1990, which is said to be the reason her brain was deprived of oxygen, resulting in her condition for the past 13 years. The degree to which this investigation is widely reported by the media may help determine whether Terri Schiavo lives or dies. Her husband is in court again to demand that her feeding tube be removed once more. If the courts continue to support the husband, she may die before the investigation is completed. But even in that case, the results may lead to a change of state laws that could save other lives. Conducting the investigation is the Advocacy Center for Persons With Disabilities (ACPD). Its website says it is "Florida's protection and advocacy program for persons with disabilities." As reported by Jeff Johnson on cnsnews.com (October 29), the agency has, according to its website, "the authority to investigate incidents of abuse and neglect when reported if there is probable cause to believe the incidents occurred." As Jeff Johnson writes, "How quickly ACPD makes a determination will depend on how difficult it is for the agency to gain access to Mrs. Schiavo's medical records and to the people it needs to interview on both sides of the legal battle." I have learned that ACPD has sent Michael Schiavo's lawyer a request that he authorize the release of Terri Schiavo's medical records. There was initial resistance, but the records have been turned over. What gives this investigation the potential for a dramatic reassessment of previous court decisions on the legitimacy of Michael Schiavo's guardianship is in the lead of Jeff Johnson's story: "The Schindler family [Terri Schiavo's parents, who are fighting for her life] has found a new ally in the battle—one it did not seek out—in the person of a famed New York forensic pathologist, Dr. Michael Baden." Former chief medical examiner for the city of New York and co-director of the Medicolegal Investigation Unit of the New York State Police, Dr. Baden is often quoted in news reports and interviewed on television. In one such interview on Fox News Channel's On the Record With Greta Van Susteren, I heard Baden agree with a panel of lawyers that Terri Schiavo is in a persistent vegetative state, and will not recover. But on a subsequent October 24 appearance on that program, Dr. Baden had a different perspective on the origins of the Terri Schiavo case. Baden had now seen a 1991 bone-scan report that cast considerable doubt on a claim in Michael Schiavo's successful medical malpractice suit, that Terri's brain injury was caused by a potassium imbalance that led to a heart attack depriving her brain of oxygen. Dr. Baden, who has written three books on forensic pathology, told Van Susteren: "It's extremely rare for a 20-year-old to have a cardiac arrest from low potassium who has no other diseases . . . which she doesn't have. . . . The reason that she's in the state she's in is because there was a period of time, maybe five or eight minutes, when not enough oxygen was going to her brain. That can happen because the heart stops for five or eight minutes, but she had a healthy heart from what we can see." (Emphasis added). Dr. Baden then addressed the 1991 bone-scan report on Terri Schiavo, which was completed on March 5 of that year by Dr. W. Campbell Walker in order to "evaluate for trauma" that may have been caused by a suspected "closed head injury." In the report, Walker wrote: "This patient has a history of trauma. The presumption is that the other multiple areas of trauma also relate to previous trauma." (Emphasis added). Here we get to what focused Dr. Baden's attention. On cnsnews.com, Jeff Johnson reported, "Walker listed apparent injuries to the ribs, thoracic vertebrae, both sacroiliac joints, both ankles and both knees." In his interview with Greta Van Susteren, Dr. Baden noted "that the bone scan describes her having a head injury . . . and head injury can lead to the 'vegetative state' that Mrs. Schiavo is in now." But, Baden continued, the bone scan "does show evidence that there are other injuries, other bone fractures that are in a healing stage [in 1991]." Those injuries could have happened, Baden continued, from "some kind of trauma. The trauma could be from an auto accident, the trauma could be from a fall, or the trauma could be from some kind of beating that she obtained from somebody somewhere. It's something that should have been investigated in 1991 . . . and maybe [it was] by police at that time." (Emphasis added). Why not see if there was a police report on those traumas to Terri in 1990? The Advocacy Center for Persons With Disabilities should look into this during its investigation of possible incidents of abuse and neglect of Terri. Moreover, Pamela Hennessy, spokesperson for Terri's parents and her brother, told cnsnews.com, "This is what the family and their doctors have been saying for a number of years." I asked Hennessy to clarify that statement. "From the beginning," she told me, "they had serious doubts as to the reason for Terri's collapse. Then, when they first heard about the bone-scan report in November of last year, they tried to file a report with the police on a possible battery on Terri. But the police wouldn't help them." The family believes that after Terri and her husband had a violent argument earlier on the evening she collapsed, Terri might have been strangled later that night. Says Pat Anderson, the lawyer for Terri's parents: "Governor Jeb Bush should order the state-wide prosecutor of Florida to convene a jury to investigate all of this." And the Advocacy Center for Persons With Disability has that 1991 bone-scan report. Will the courts wait for the investigations—or hurry to send her into eternity? Should Michael Schiavo have the guardianship power to terminate her? link=hxxp://www.villagevoice.com/news/0347,hentoff,48738,6.html |
In side news, from dailykos about the fact the vast majority of people seeing this a political power play by DeLay and friends...
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Yeah, that site is PURELY bi-partisan too.
Whatever. |
The law as passed by Congress, its a bit too vague and general for me:
The “compromise bill” shown below was introduced on Saturday, March 19, 2005, passed by the U.S. Senate and House of Representatives on Sunday, March 20, 2005, and signed into law by President Bush early Monday morning on March 21, 2005. According to lawyers for Terri Schiavo’s parents, the Bill is similar to a U.S. Senate Bill passed on Thursday “tailored to give the Federal District Court jurisdiction in the Schiavo case,” while the Bill originally proposed by the U.S. House of Representatives “sought broader legislation.” AN ACT
For the relief of the parents of Theresa Marie Schiavo.Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the United States of America in Congress assembled, |
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Jeff, it's from an ABC News poll. The site I got it from just means I'm a dirty, filthy commie, not the poll results. :-) |
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Well... then that throws out 100% of all polls done... you know what, the election is hardly non-partisan, lets throw it out  If you can't refute the facts, just refute the source |
Does anybody know where we can find who voted on the bill?
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http://www3.capwiz.com/c-span/issues...&congress=1091 |
S 686 2/3 YEA-AND-NAY 21-Mar-2005 12:45 AM QUESTION: On Motion to Suspend the Rules and Pass BILL TITLE: For the relief of the parents of Theresa Marie Schiavo
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Thanks. I'm very suprised by the number of Democrats that voted. I'm assuming that they are more moderate than those that voted 'nay'. It also makes me wonder what their political motivation is. Personally, I don't think that the federal government should be involved in this matter. Although I don't agree with it, I believe that the family failed to show the burden of proof necessary to keep her alive. I equate this a putting an animal to "sleep", but I don't make the rules. *shurgs* |
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LOL! That'll win you the case ;). |
What exactly happens if the judge rules in favor of the husband?
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Maybe Republicans will go The Hague, that'd be funny.
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Actually, if the judge rules in favor of the husband, this still won't be over. There will likely be an appeal to a federal appeals court and back to the Supreme Court. Since the bill made this a matter of federal jurisdiction that will change the factors of the appeal. However, a new factor of the appeal will be if the law that placed this in federal jurisdiction is even constitutional. It could get pretty complicated. A temporary order to re-insert the feeding tube would not surprise me. It could be a long time before this is all over.
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Last I checked, a percentage of Dems voted on this measure and many abstain, too. They're just as guilty of pushing this into the federal system as it is the Republicans. |
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The parents will seek appellate review and the obvious problem will be time. There are a couple of ways they could go. The typical approach would be to appeal to the 11th circuit with a request for an emergency mandatory injunction requiring the hospice to reinsert the feeding tube pending resolution of the appeal, then if they lose there they would appeal to the supreme court. But to obtain such an injunction, the parents would have to show, inter alia, a likelihood of success on the merits. Considering their lawyers "can't think of any" legal precedent that supports their due process claims, that might be difficult. Moreover, mandatory injunctions, as opposed to prohibitory injunctions, are very difficult to obtain, especially when you are trying to mandate cutting someone open to stuff tubes inside their body. Given the extraordinary circumstances of this case and the difficulty they might have in obtaining an injunction, the parents probably would be better off bypassing the 11th circuit and directly petitioning the supreme court for what's called certiorari before judgment, a procedure that is extremely rare but can be used in circumstances where a final decision absolutely must be made immediately. |
What if the father just killed the Husband. Wouldnt that make his wife the guardian?
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I got a feeling that the hubby might have alot of secruity. He's got alot of anti-protestors outside his home, and I'm sure some of them are looney enough to make threats. Thanks for the clear yabanci. I just am not sure on the legal system in this case. Haven't this already gone to the Supreme Court? |
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Yes, the US Supreme Court already has deneid certiorari three times. In fact, their last petition to the US Supreme Court (March 16) was based entirely on the argument that "both Petitioners and their daughter, Terri Schiavo herself, have been denied federal due process and equal protection rights by the Florida courts..." (paragraph 8), an argument that, of course, was rejected but is now being regurgitated before the district court under the new statute. |
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FWIW, almost all polls are the same. The conservative Fox News poll says: "Nearly six in ten Americans (59 percent) say that as Schiavo's guardian they would remove her feeding tube, while 24 percent would keep the tube inserted and 17 percent are uncertain which action they would take. These numbers remain virtually unchanged from a previous FOX poll in which 61 percent of Americans said they would remove the tube and 22 percent said they would not, with 17 percent unsure (October 2003)." Also the same in CNN, ABCNews, MSNBC, whatever polls. I don't know who the policians are playing to since over half the country believes it's the spouse who is the legal guardian and they would have done the same thing. Edit: 75% say that if it were them in the same state as Terri Schiavo, they would want the tube removed as well. The main thing skewing the guardianship polls is the married/unmarried population. Obviously the married population thinks the decisions should be left to the spouse, opposite to unmarried people. |
Judge ruled against the parents, must have come down late last night...this is from the AP website
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories...O&SECTION=HOME Quote:
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Well the federal judge has refused to reinstate her feeding tube. My guess it's going to the next step, 11th Circuit Appeals court.
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It won't matter soon. It's been four days now.
How about some of you in favor of this death sentence going without food and water for four days. Then you can let us know what a pleasant experience it is. Who knows, maybe by then you will have reached that "euphoric" state all the experts are talking about. |
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On ething I will agree with is that while someone is determining her fate, ie. the judges, the tube should've been reinstated. Its ridiculous to be handling her fate while her fate is happening already. SFL - I noticed a bunch of references to Baden's appearances on Fox News, and well, Fox News certainly wasn't going to bring Baden back if his story didn't change. I find it far fetched, a reach, HOWEVER, if the organization in the first part of the story (before it got skewed by the Fox stuff) has a responsibility to look into abuse/negligence so be it....have at it. The guy turned over the records feel free to look into it as much as you want BUT I guarantee (much like any court case out there) that they will be able to find any investigator, expert or not, who fits what they need. |
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Dude, go roll one up and relax. Nobody said it was a pleasant experience or anything. In fact, over 60% of Americans agree with the decision and would want the same thing done for themselves. If you are going to put forth rational debate and arguments, that's fine...if you are going to whine like a baby and make sensationalist statements, go sell it on GOP.com or somewhere else people want to hear rhetoric like that. |
hey miked, how long could you go without food and water before you cried like a little girl?
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dola...like I said earlier...you want her dead, just let someone put a couple of bullets in her head. Probably much more humane IMO.
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It's not my fault that the government wouldn't allow more humane forms of euthenasia in these instances. |
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But despite this fact, you're still in favor of how it's going down, right! The tube is out...she's got a week....maybe two, then Michael Schiavo can pop some bubbly and "move on with his life". |
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You're a sick person. |
gee slick, coming from you I'll take that as a compliment.
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SFL Cat, if it was legal to give her the same painless injection they give to death row inmates, would that be less objectionable to you? Ask yourself, are you really objecting to her being starved to death (as opposed to other forms of death) or is this just a sensationalist way of couching your argument against this whole thing?
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Much less objectionable.
However, as long as the family is willing to assume responsibility for her care, I think they should be allowed to. I think this whole situation is much more of a case of MS's spite against the family than honoring his wife's wish not to live in such a state. But that's just my opinion. |
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Yes, we understand your opinion. Now 12 different court cases have ruled the exact opposite. I'm much more inclined to beleive the rulings of repeated (informed) judges over your (uninformed) opinion. And your statement about "Michael Schiavo popping some bubbly" at his wife's death shows how deluded you really are. You're much like Farrah - you've demonized this guy with a total disregard for the facts. Frankly, you should be ashamed. As the good book says, judge not.... |
I would say people like you are the deluded ones.
We don't starve-to-death the worst scum of the Earth -- that's too inhumane. Here we have a husband who hasn't really been a husband for a long time -- complete with a live-in girlfriend and two children to boot -- grounds for divorce in any state I know about -- and yet the court still considers him worthy to be the guardian of Terri -- go figure. Yes, the courts have ruled -- and to liberals, there is nothing more sacred than the almighty and infalliable judiciary. We'll just overlook how the highest court in the land once upheld slavery, and how it recently went shopping internationally to find a legal precedent to overturn the death sentence for Lee Boyd Malvo since he was a minor. You libs are the true hypocrites. You yell and scream about the Republicans in Congress trying to usurp "state rights," but you have no problems when the non-elected judiciary does the same thing, esecially if it lines up your agenda. |
Differing opinions are exactly the reason we have judges and rule of law. A judge is supposed to hear both sides of a case (the plaintiff's and defendant's opinons), and make a determination based on the testimony and applicable laws and rulings. And because the judge is only one person, there are appeals processes to decided if the judge made any errors in his determination.
What make this case differnent than most is the level of emotions involved. But again, that is why we have the judicial system. As the saying goes, "Lady Justice is blind". This means that the judges have to throw out emotional pleas and make their decisions, popular or not, on the established rule of law and previous legal precedents. |
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Oh the irony - you want to blame judicial "activism" for slavery now ? If it was your way and people like you, Brown vs Board of Education would have been turned down. And for what its worth, the last 2 judges to preside on this have been Republicans. Stop making this a liberal issue just because you have nowhere else to turn to- its a rights issue. |
dola...and for your info...the book you refer to doesn't say not to judge...
it simply says that the same measure you use to judge others will be used to judge you... If you condemn someone for something you yourself do, then you deserve every stone that comes your way. |
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I thought you said not to use the term "good book" as it could tick people off....I guess i can use it now too. ;) |
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you sure about that? |
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Who's rights? |
Matthew 7: 1-5
“Do not judge, or you too will be judged. 2For in the same way you judge others, you will be judged, and with the measure you use, it will be measured to you. ***3“Why do you look at the speck of sawdust in your brother's eye and pay no attention to the plank in your own eye? 4How can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ when all the time there is a plank in your own eye? 5You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye. |
Not too sure about that translation there, boss.
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I've been following this thread pretty closely and completely understand that the courts have sided with Michael on the issue of Terri's guardian and wishes. But, I have a slightly different question. I'm trying to put myself in Michael's shoes and understand why he would fight this for years and years, always coming back to the "I just want to move on" card when pressed. I mean, why not just hand over guardianship of Terri to her family? It's not like they are a group of crack whores and pimps, these people legitimately want to try and help her and love her a great deal. If he indeed wants to move on, this seems like the best way to go for all parties involved. He would no longer have to deal with her and could move on with his new family.
I just can't imagine that she was this adament about not being kept alive to warrant this type of fight by Michael, yet never thought to put this "adament feeling" in writing. Now, I am not trying to paint the husband in a bad light here, but it seems like he is so "invested" in this process of "winning" these cases that he may have forgotton the point of this battle to begin with - end her suffering. Given how it has gone to this point (and figures to go if she gets starved to death), I don't see how his actions are decreasing the amount of suffering she does/will have. And that, IMO, would have probably been the reasoning for her to not want to be kept alive to begin with. Not that it's entirely his fault, but I think he's so vested in this case that he hasn't taken a chance to step back and re-evaluate the situation. She's obviously kept fighting to stay alive for years now in a very difficult situation. And many doctors will say that someone in her position would probably not be alive (without any traditional "life support") for this long if she did not want to live. While his original motives seem to be good, I think that given the state of things right now that he should just hand over guardienship of Terri to her family and move on with his life. That, IMO, would be the logical thing for someone to do given the desire to "move on". |
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I do think you have a point there Arlie- I think its simply a case at this point of him doing what he thought (or was told) his wife would have wanted. Fundementally, we do not want the government interfering in families, and the court gambit has already been played out. If Farrah told you that you had to make sure she didnt live like that in a situtation like this, wouldnt you do your utmost to make sure her wishes were followed - through hell or high water ? Edit: Essentialy, I do consider the possibility that it has become his personal crusade, to do what his wife wanted in the face of all opposition. |
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NIV, boss. |
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You're kidding right? SHE IS BRAIN DEAD!!! There is no one home. She is already dead by most standards. That is why the courts don't have a problem with terminating life support. Most likely even without the drugs they are giving her to "make her comfortable" she will be just as happy tomorrow as she was last Thursday. |
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Then there ought to be stones thrown at the Republican party for: 1. George W. Bush signing the Texas Futile Care Law that gives hospitals the right to remove life support if the patient could not pay and there is no hope of revival, regardless of the patient's family's wishes. 2. Congress' enthusiastic vote to cut Medicaid expenditures. A greater percentage of Terri Schiavo's care is coming from the state via medicaid as the malpractice money runs out. Speaking of which... 3. The Republican party's push for caps on malpractice awards, and the demonizing of people who seek such awards as gold diggers. That malpractice money has kept Terri Schiavo alive all these years. 4. Making it difficult for people to declare bankruptcy, and demonizing the people who do. Catastrophic medical bills are one of the chief reasons people declare bankruptcy. Say if Schiavo's parents did get to assume care of Terri, and then had to declare bankruptcy because Terri's medical bills became too much of a burden--would you turn on them then? SFL Cat, I understand the emotions running here for the Terri Schiavo case. I can see your vehement support in favor of Schiavo's parents. However, the Republicans can never claim the moral high ground on this case, since they have made opposite policy decisions for all other people in similar situations to (but not named) Terri Schiavo. I don't know where you stand on medicaid for the indigent, bankruptcy for people in financial distress due to medical bills, and medical malpractice. But these are real issues for people who need long term care, and a couple of these issues do have a bearing in the Schiavo case. If you actually care about people in situations like Terri Schiavo (but who don't have her level of publicity) then you will have to seriously address what Republican policies have done to make the lives of people and families like Terri Schiavo's so difficult. |
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1. We've covered the first paragraph already. People can question his motives all they want, but the simple answer is that he realized his wife isn't going to get better (in fact, she's gone already), he believes that she wouldn't want to live this way and is carrying out the last wishes of the woman he loved before moving on with life. This is by far the most logical explanation. I think that if there were other motives involved, he would have screwed up and given some evidence to the contrary. He hasn't. Now you may disagree with their choices, but that doesn't mean they are wrong. 2. As for the "fighting to stay alive", this is again a misconception and a difficult one for some to understand because they want to ignore the science behind her condition. Her primitive functions keep working - with the help of medical science - because that's what they do. She can no more die than you can voluntarily stop breathing. By pretty much all independent medical experts in this case, she doesn't "want" anything. "Want" would indicate some higher brain functions. She has no higher brain functions. |
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thats good stuff. |
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She is not brain dead. The part of her brain, the brainstem, that supports basic life functions such as breathing and heart rate is spared. However, the second part of Glengoyne's statement is accurate. CT scans show that her cortex, the crumpled sheet that most of us think of when we think of the brain, has completely degenerated as a result of the trauma. She has no higher cognitive functions anymore. She cannot fight to stay alive like some patients can. Her husband spent years trying out different therapies before he conceded that there was no hope of recovery including some experimental procedure done in California that her parents could not afford. Terri's condition steadily worsened despite all efforts. |
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At what point is it reasonable to finally listen to the doctors, realize there is no treatment, that the brain cells are dead, that they can't be revived, that she's never coming back, that this was her wish and let her go? At what point to you give up hope, Arles? I think 8 years is long enough. Using some of the statements presented above and taking them to their logical conclusion, it seems that we should never let anyone die. We should cryogenically freeze them until a cure can be found to rebuild a brain, fix terminal cancer, reverse old age...after all, there may be a way to do this eventually, right? I think everyone would agree this is an absurd example...but for those who think that she should continue to "exist" (I won't call it living any more than I would call an amobea living) in this twilight between life and death, look at your claims and follow your logic to its proper conclusion. |
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I never claimed the Republicans have the moral high ground. To me, most Republicans and Democrats are cut from the same cloth. They pay lip service to what their base constituencies want to hear (especially the kook fringes on both sides) and basically govern with little differentiation. In most instances, I think the words politician and hypocrite are synonymous. |
So congress and Bush force a federal judge to hear the parents case, and the courts AGAIN says... "NO, SORRY". So why do they get to appeal this decision? This shit is ludacris.
hxxp://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=615&e=1&u=/nm/20050322/pl_nm/rights_schiavo_dc |
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It seems to me that he has moved on, but her parents have not. I don't see the harm in letting them try every possible avenue to them (financially) before she will eventually pass. There are really only two logical reasons for him to continue to act on her behalf with his new family and life he's setup: 1. He's been so invested in the cause of winning her case that he is now willing to make everything harder on his new family, Terri's family and even himself. 2. He doesn't want to give up the rights to her life insurance once she dies. I know number 2 is a fairly callous, but those are really the only reasons I can see him keeping on with this. The idea that he can somehow "end her suffering" should have gone away about 3-4 years ago. She's obviously adjusted to her new life (whatever capacity it is). |
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All of your words would actually mean something if TERRY SHIAVO actually wanted to live like a vegetable! Also, #2 is total crap. Once she dies, the husband doesnt get a single dime. |
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Bullshit - you continue to ignore the most obvious and logical reason: THIS IS WHAT HE ABSOULETULY BELIEVES TERRI SCHIAVO WANTED. |
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It's just he didn't happen to mention it until seven years after her collapse, and used the occasion of petitioning the court to have her tube removed to do so. |
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Because he spent years exhausting different therapies, none of which worked. |
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Depending on who you believe, that tends to be a point of contention. |
None of the independent reviewers that I've seen, including two or three different Guardians Ad Litem appointed as advocates solely for Terry, have found fault with her care.
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Did they have complete access to the medical records? My understanding is that Schiavo and his lawyer have kept those and the financial records tight to the vest.
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Wow, it's really hard to understand that for quite a few years after her trauma he and her parents consulted with doctors and tried multiple approaches on the chance that she might gain some form of recovery, but as it became clear to Michael that there wasn't any hope of recovery, and that she was sure to remain in this state for the rest of her life he considered the opinion she'd rendered to him (and others) in the past that she wouldn't want to go on living that way. Perhaps it took him a long time to come to terms with this difficult decision, and certainly the fact her parents didn't agree with it didn't help. So obviously that 8-year gap is proof he isn't sincere in his belief this is what she wanted. :rolleyes: |
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You're kidding me right? In all the exhausitve appeals and court happenings in this case, somehow Michael Schiavo has managed to hide medical records pertaining to the case? |
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I think most people don't know she made her opinion known to more than just him. I just heard that last night. I had no idea this was more than just on his word. |
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Okay, but I do notice that a lot of people--politicians or otherwise--who have expressed the most outrage over this are backtracking when policy questions are raised. To me, the policy ramifications are much more important to the country than the minutiae regarding this individual case... That is not to say that there are legitimate issues in the case itself (the humaneness of removing the feeding tube, for example), and they are also important and worthy of debate--but you can't look at one aspect of the case without acknowledging the existence and relevance of the other aspects... |
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You might have missed the link the first time around, but there is an excellent running account of this case from a Florida law blogger that has been following this situation for quite some time. You can find it here: hxxp://www.abstractappeal.com/schiavo/infopage.html He does an excellent job of presenting the case in full and answering a number of common questions about the case. Though I'm sure that those with extremist views on this case will call him biased for saying anything that disagrees with them or disputes their views, but that's how it goes. |
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Just to further refute your complete lack of understanding of this case, here's what the 2nd District Court explained regarding the Schindler's doctor gaining an opportunity to examine Terri: Quote:
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I still don't quite get why he has stood so adament against allowing her parents to be the guardian of her, but that doesn't mean he is a bad person. In the end, I think the hardest thing I have with this whole process is the starvation method of killing her. It just seems inhumaine.
I can honestly say that if she was hooked up to a breathing aparatus because she could not longer breathe on her own, I wouldn't have a problem with the Dr.'s "pulling the plug" at this point. I think that most reasonable methods of care and investigations into her actual wishes have been made. |
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Let's review this: Don't you suppose, given the tremendous amount of publicity this case has generated, that if this line of thinking had any validity there would have been follow-ups to this lone article in the 2 years since it was published? Let's also consider the logical fallacy of this argument; from the Q&A section of the Abstract Appeal blog my Matt Conigliaro: Quote:
Thus we have established the credibility of the argument advanced that supports the claims of Michael Schiavo on the cause of Terri's situation. Further, let's also remember that Michael Schiavo brought a medical malpractice suit regarding this case, which automatically meant a great deal of medical attention focused on the cause of her situation: Quote:
Given this malpractice trial, it raises major doubts about the line of thinking that Michael in fact caused her situation through physical beating(s) of Terri: Quote:
So basically what we have is very little in the way of credible evidence to support the line of thinking that Terri's situation was caused by severe physical trauma from abuse by her husband. But hey, don't let that stop you from smearing his name in the mud because you don't agree with his decision... |
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For a conscious, aware human starvation would be a very unpleasant way to go. In her state, with no cognitive brain funtion, I don't think there's any awareness of the fact starvation is occurring. I would agree this isn't the optimal method - euthanasia would be preferable by lethal injection would be preferable, but it's not an option in this situation. |
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According to the timeline February*23,*2005… Florida's Department of Children and Families asks to intervene and for 60-day stay to permit investigation of alleged abuse. March*10,*2005… Judge Greer denies Department of Children and Families request to intervene and for stay, finds agency is free to investigate. As far as I know, no investigation has been launched as of this point. Quote:
Having family in medical practice, I can tell you that doctors and hospitals settle cases all the time; many times even when they are in the right. Why? Most of the time it's cheaper to settle out of court than fight a protracted legal battle, where even if you are in the right, you still have a chance of losing. In and of itself, this settlement does nothing to negate the charges brought by the family. The fact of the matter is that Terri's bone scans showed signs of past trauma...and to my knowledge, no suitable explanation was ever offered on how they occured. Allegedly, Terri Schiavo confided to close friends that she wanted to divorce Michael prior to her collapse, and according to other family members Michael sometimes displayed violent tendencies both toward Terri and other members of her family. If the family were okay with letting her go...then there wouldn't be an issue here. But since they aren't, I simply don't understand why he remains so adamantly in favor of ending her life. |
Although I can't vouch for the authenticity of this affidavit (I have only found copies of it on pro-life type sites), this is reportedly from one of Terri's hospice care-givers. There are supposedly other affidavits from other nurses similar to this one.
AFFIDAVIT * STATE OF FLORIDA********** ) COUNTY OF PINELLAS**** ) * *********** BEFORE ME the undersigned authority personally appeared CARLA SAUER IYER, R.N., who being first duly sworn, deposes and says: 1.******************** My name is Carla Sauer Iyer.* I am over the age of eighteen and make this statement of my own personal knowledge. 2.******************** I am a registered nurse in the State of Florida, having been licensed continuously in Florida from 1997 to the present.* Prior to that I was a Licensed Practical Nurse for about four years. 3.******************** I was employed at Palm Garden of Largo Convalescent Center in Largo, Florida from April of 1995 to July 1996, while Terri Schiavo was a patient there. 4.******************** It was clear to me at Palm Gardens that all decisions regarding Terri Schiavo were made by Michael Schiavo, with no allowance made for any discussion, debate or normal professional judgment.* My initial training there consisted solely of the instruction “Do what Michael Schiavo tells you or you will be terminated.”* This struck me as extremely odd. 5.******************** I was very disturbed by the decision making protocol, as no allowance whatsoever was made for professional responsibility.* The atmosphere throughout the facility was dominated by Mr. Schiavo’s intimidation.* Everyone there, with the exception of several people who seemed to be close to Michael, was intimidated by him.* Michael Schiavo always had an overbearing attitude, yelling numerous times such things as “This is my order and you’re going to follow it.”* He is very large and uses menacing body language, such as standing too close to you, getting right in your face and practically shouting. 6.******************** To the best of my recollection, rehabilitation had been ordered for Terri, but I never saw any being done or had any reason at all to believe that there was ever any rehab of Terri done at Palm Gardens while I was there.* I became concerned because nothing was being done for Terri at all, no antibiotics, no tests, no range of motion therapy, no stimulation, no nothing.* Michael said again and again that Terri should NOT get any rehab, that there should be no range of motion whatsoever, or anything else.* I and a CNA named Roxy would give Terri range of motion anyway.* One time I put a wash cloth in Terri’s hand to keep her fingers from curling together, and Michael saw it and made me take it out, saying that was therapy.***** 7.******************** Terri’s medical condition was systematically distorted and misrepresented.* When I worked with her, she was alert and oriented.* Terri spoke on a regular basis while in my presence, saying such things as “mommy,” and “help me.”* “Help me” was, in fact, one of her most frequent utterances.* I heard her say it hundreds of times.** Terri would try to say the word “pain” when she was in discomfort, but it came out more like “pay.”* She didn’t say the “n” sound very well.* During her menses she would indicate her discomfort by saying “pay” and moving her arms toward her lower abdominal area.* Other ways that she would indicate that she was in pain included pursing her lips, grimacing, thrashing in bed, curling her toes or moving her legs around.* She would let you know when she had a bowel movement by flipping up the covers and pulling on her diaper.** 8.******************** When I came into her room and said “Hi, Terri”, she would always recognize my voice and her name, and would turn her head all the way toward me, saying “Haaaiiiii” sort of, as she did.* I recognized this as a “hi”, which is very close to what it sounded like, the whole sound being only a second or two long.* When I told her humorous stories about my life or something I read in the paper, Terri would chuckle, sometimes more a giggle or laugh.* She would move her whole body, upper and lower.* Her legs would sometimes be off the bed, and need to be repositioned.*** I made numerous entries into the nursing notes in her chart, stating verbatim what she said and her various behaviors, but by my next on-duty shift, the notes would be deleted from her chart.* Every time I made a positive entry about any responsiveness of Terri’s, someone would remove it after my shift ended.* Michael always demanded to see her chart as soon as he arrived, and would take it in her room with him.*** I documented Terri’s rehab potential well, writing whole pages about Terri’s responsiveness, but they would always be deleted by the next time I saw her chart.* The reason I wrote so much was that everybody else seemed to be afraid to make positive entries for fear of their jobs, but I felt very strongly that a nurses job was to accurately record everything we see and hear that bears on a patients condition and their family.* I upheld the Nurses Practice Act, and if it cost me my job, I was willing to accept that. 9.******************** Throughout my time at Palm Gardens, Michael Schiavo was focused on Terri’s death.* Michael would say “When is she going to die?,” “Has she died* yet?” and “When is that bitch gonna die?”* These statements were common knowledge at Palm Gardens, as he would make them casually in passing, without regard even for who he was talking to, as long as it was a staff member.* Other statements which I recall him making include “Can’t you do anything to accelerate her death - won’t she ever die?”* When she wouldn’t die, Michael would be furious.* Michael was also adamant that the family should not be given information.* He made numerous statements such as “Make sure the parents aren’t contacted.”** I recorded Michael’s statements word for word in Terri’s chart, but these entries were also deleted after the end of my shift.* Standing orders were that the family wasn’t to be contacted, in fact, there was a large sign in the front of her chart that said under no circumstances was her family to be called, call Michael immediately, but I would call them, anyway, because I thought they should know about their daughter. 10.****************** Any time Terri would be sick, like with a UTI or fluid buildup in her lungs, colds, pneumonia, Michael would be visibly excited, thrilled even, hoping that she would die.* He would call me, as I was the nurse supervisor on the floor, and ask for every little detail about her temperature, blood pressure, etc., and would call back frequently asking if she was dead yet.* He would blurt out “I’m going to be rich!,” and would talk about all the things he would buy when Terri died, which included a new car, a new boat, and going to Europe, among other things. 11.****************** When Michael visited Terri, he always came alone and always had the door closed and locked while he was with Terri.* He would typically be there about twenty minutes or so.* When he left Terri would would be trembling, crying hysterically, and would be very pale and have cold sweats.* It looked to me like Terri was having a hypoglycemic reaction, so I’d check her blood sugar.* The glucometer reading would be so low it was below the range where it would register an actual number reading.* I would put dextrose in Terri’s* mouth to counteract it.* This happened about five times on my shift as I recall.* Normally Terri’s blood sugar levels were very stable due to the uniformity of her diet through tube feeding.* It is my belief that Michael injected Terri with Regular insulin, which is very fast acting. 12.****************** The longer I was employed at Palm Gardens the more concerned* I became about patient care, both relating to Terri Schiavo, for the reasons I’ve said, and other patients, too.* There was an LPN named Carolyn Adams, known as “Andy” Adams who was a particular concern.* An unusual number of patients seemed to die on her shift, but she was completely unconcerned, making statements such as “They are old - let them die.”* I couldn’t believe her attitude or the fact that it didn’t seem to attract any attention.* She made many comments about Terri being a waste of money, that she should die.* She said it was costing Michael a lot of money to keep her alive, and that he complained about it constantly (I heard him complain about it all the time, too.)** Both Michael and Adams said that she would be worth more to him if she were dead.* I ultimately called the police relative to this situation, and was terminated the next day.* Other reasons were cited, but I was convinced it was because of my “rocking the boat.”******* 13.****************** Ms. Adams was one of the people who did not seem to be intimidated by Michael.* In fact, they seemed to be very close, and Adams would do whatever Michael told her.* Michael sometimes called Adams at night and spoke at length.* I was not able to hear the content of these phone calls, but I knew it was him talking to her because she would tell me afterward and relay orders from him. 14.****************** While at Palm Gardens, I became fearful for my personal safety.* This was due to Michael’s constant intimidation, including his menacing body language, vocal tone and mannerisms. 15.****************** I have contacted the Schindler family because I just couldn’t stand by and let Terri die without the truth being known. ********* *********** FURTHER AFFIANT SAYETH NAUGHT. * *********************************************************************************** *********************************************************** *********************************************************************************** * CARLA SAUER IYER, R.N. *********************************************************************** The foregoing instrument was acknowledged before me this _____ day of September, 2003, by* CARLA SAUER IYER, R.N., who produced her Florida driver’s license as identification, and who did / did not take an oath. * * *********************************************************************** *************************************************************************** *********************************************************************** Notary Public My commission expires: |
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Regardless of whether you fully support the findings that undiagnosed bulimia led to a potassium imbalance that caused her heart attack, the medical malpractice suit was a great opportunity for someone to advance the argument that in fact it was severe physical trauma that caused her collapse. The defendents had every financial incentive to pursue that line of questioning if they felt it had any validity, yet they did not. The opportunity was there - the bone scan in question happened in 1991, the medical malpractice suit in 1993 - yet it went unpursued. As for the results of the bone scan, there are plenty of suitable explanations for the trauma including evidence consistent with bulimia, a fall, and CPR by paramedics. Quote:
Again, don't you suppose if these claims had any validity they would've been brought up and examined in any of the multiple court cases surrounding this issue? I could start a rumor that George W. Bush skins kittens for their fur, and someone could say that GWB "allegedly" skins kittens. Doesn't make it a valid allegation. Quote:
Because the husband genuinely believes this is what she would've wanted in this situation. Apparently you can't grasp this concept, as it's been repeated innumerable times already in this thread. |
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Still, it doesn't jive with everything else. If all he wanted was money, why not just divorse her after the initial cash settlement and move on? |
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So there seem to be two possibilities here: 1. This claim (and the others) have some validity, and the courts have been complelely negligent and incompetant in ignoring these claims, or; 2. This claim (and the others) have been found to be not credible. Given the amount of litigation in this case and the extreme attention it has received, you'd have to be extremely paranoid or partisan to believe option #1. |
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Thank you for being rational Arlie. This claim is highly suspect, seeing as how it's not exactly new (see the September 2003 date) and it doesn't seem to have affected any of the appeals thus far. |
Interesting thoughts....
Questions: 1) The new "methods" they have now, how long do you keep trying for? Medicine is a pretty "fast-evolving" field with new experiments, drugs, technology coming out? How long do you keep trying for? 2) If Michael did not have the character questions that he has, yet still had parnets that fight him, would this still be an issue? |
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You're right, mistakes are never made. Nothing ever gets dropped down between the cracks. Quote:
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There is nothing that can be done now or possibly ever once you cerebral cortex is gone. |
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I agree, but the family claims new treatments can be tried, ect.. |
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Never said mistakes don't happen. If further evidence comes forward to corroborate these claims against Michael Schiavo, I'll change my opinion on the matter regarding his motives, but until that time comes I'll regard this unverified affadavit with heavy skepticism. As an aside, I think you'll find that the vast majority of situations like you cited are cases that don't receive much public scrutiny while the errors are being made. That's not the case with Terri Schiavo... |
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The family seems to be under the illusion that their daughter has some cognitive function, and they've been pushing so hard for so long to keep her alive that it's not hard to imagine that they're willing to believe in any glimmer of hope for Terri. Never say never - it's certainly possible that in the future, medical science will advance enough that the devestation to her cerebral cortex might be reversed - but at this point there doesn't seem to be anything that could be done to bring her anywhere close to normalcy. To review, much of her cerebral cortex is simply gone and has been replaced by cerebral spinal fluid. |
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Fair enough. Quote:
The Schiavo case has been in the news for a long time down here. It didn't really gain extensive national exposure until relatively recently. |
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That's not true. The Shiavo case has gotten national exposure every time one of these "deadlines" came in the last couple of years. |
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Even local news attention is more than most cases get. |
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Considering this all started back in 1990, I would consider that "relatively recently." |
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But not so recent that there could have been the errors like you were quoting from other cases. In other words, you're comparing apples and oranges. |
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And she has already left the building a long time ago. |
And as we quibble, the Terri Schiavo starvation diet is fast approaching Day 5.
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Says the expert. So you can guarantee she is feeling no pain or discomfort as she is starved to death? |
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At least you're consistent...when you can't find facts or logic to back your position, you go right to the old standbys of unsubstantiated claims, rumor, innunendo, speculation and finally sensationalism! |
Thanks for the sweet bash, Blackie!
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Do you know much about how the brain works? She has no higher brain functions, i.e. the things that give us awareness, cognition. Given what science knows about how the brain works, it is incredibly unlikely she feels anything at all. |
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I would say yes. If your brain is liquid, your brain is liquid. I would also say the experts have a much better grip on what is going on than you. |
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Thats what I though. I never say never. But medicial advantages don't happen over night, and it takes years to get it from the research stage to the "approved market" stage, and tons of money. I just don't see any potential life-changing advances coming in time for Teri's sake. |
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She has no concious awareness of anything. |
I dunno...I would think pain is probably a pretty primitive response to stimulus.
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If you prick her finger with a pin, she may pull it back in response to the noxious stimulus; that is a primitive response mediated by the spinal cord. The concious experience of pain however is much more complex and requires the cortex, thus she is incable of experiencing it. |
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