You idiot NFG22 you are making me mad :p . If there was no evil then our freedom of choice would be between good and good. So in essence there must be evil, which brings about sin, which brings about suffering.

Did you just quote yourself, AND call yourself an idiot? Are you part of the Holy Trinity?

Whooo...holy ghost! Oooooo!

Oh wise one: If "religion is taught" so that it promotes racism, how then can you ask, "where would it be taught?" Are you saying that religious institutions are teaching racism? I would hate for you to be as fundamental in your assessment of religion as you claim religion is fundamental in their assessment of the non-religious. It is absurd, even vulgar, that all religions teach racism. If anything, your scope in judging all religions and all religious people cannot be complete. Just one example, the Vatican II said that the Holy Spirit is not confined to the Church, moreover infinite grace, is just that. The Church has no say in denying what and where the Holy Spirit does its thing, so neither should we.
Also, religions are taught in school. I just helped a friend put together her lesson plan for her unit on Islam for middle school kids. This unit is part of a larger world religion one that is mandated from the state.

NFG revision 2.

So you are saying that the only choices we get to make in life are between good and evil.... Not if I want vanilla or chochlate or I like redheads or blonds?

You still have a ton of indpendent will and descisions to be made even without a choice between good and evil.

Doesn't =

It wasn't taught in the 80's and 90's in NJ where I grew up.

Anyway, the fundemental teachings of christianity are you except Jesus Christ as your savior or you goto hell. Its pretty cut and dry. Those that don't are not in gods grace and goto hell. The catholic religion doesn't allow female priests, hmm seems sexist to me.

Yes but this thread isnt discussing the freedon of choice for ice cream? It is duscussing Jesus. Also I was referring to why an all loving God would let evil be around. God made us so we can make the choice between Him and all that isnt Just and wholesome.

druez, because religion was not taught to you, it must not have been taught.... because some christians are fundamental racist, it must be racist... because the Vatican does not allow women priest, Catholics must be sexist.
I'm not sure you understand stand my meaning of grace. you make it seem that grace is conditional, which if it was it would no longer be called grace.
I would agree with you that if Chirstians believe in Jesus in order to prevent themselves from going to hell or to get into heaven then their beliefs are worthy of your vennom. Again, the concept of grace is what gets one into heaven, whatever that may be. You seem to have a great dislike for the institutions, and their versions of God. Seems to me you could believe in God that does not contain any of those things that you dislike, racism, sexism, etc..

You must be new to this thread. I went into my beliefs about 5 pages ago "hehe" :). Anyway, yes I don't have a problem with "God" or the constant as I call it. I have a problem with the various religions. I do believe in a higher power and I do believe its a personal relationship. I don't think you need to live by the rulebooks put down by the various faiths. Everyone knows the rules inside themselves...

Well you are right but the thing is think of it this way.

Do you believe that God is all knowing? and omnipresent?omnicent?

Well if you do then why would He let people be mislead by some book they say is from Him yet He isnt in it? I believe the Bible while written by man has many things that are Godly and we should loive according to what Jesus said. I dont always live that way but I should.

druez, as christopher walken said in "search and destroy": i'm enchanted with your optimism. while i think everyone may "know the rules inside themselves" that does not mean that we should be lawless. i fully see your point on dogma. i hate to think that we have to be threatened to do good, whether it's jail, hell, pain, etc.. this is a great tension, one may even say it's due to sin. but whatever it is i think if one looks at religion as being a source of inspiration and fulfillment, then without the focus on the threats and promises religion can be a good thing.

Here's a link for your edification :)

http://electronics.howstuffworks.com/fiber-optic.htm

During my nap another question popped into my mind. How do you "store" information into an equation? It's an interesting concept. As a test, this morning I sat down with pen and paper and tried to store some tax-related information into the equation y = mx + b but to no avail. :(

Can you help me out? You don't have to explain it completely to me (I probably won't understand it anyways), just give me the fuzzy answer :)

This thread is like an "Idiot's Guide to Christianity" written by a dyslexic chimpanzee.

In honor of this thread, I'm going to start my own where I take all of your questions on quantum physics and my theories on dark matter.

That would be sweet! If you start it, I'll start the questions.

If God knows all, then there is no freedom of choice. Our choices have already been made. And if God will send me to hell for not accepting him...well, that just flat out doesn't make sense, because he created every part of my, including my brain, and within that, my thought structure.

When you really get down to it, it just doesn't make sense.

no kidding...:D

If you break down any ideology, it won't make since...

religions especially

Are you trying to say it won't make sense? I really wish people would just admit that they don't know as much as they'd like to about a particular subject or religion instead of simply dismissing it outright as not making sense. That doesn't make any sense.

I'm still confused about the whole "storing information in an equation" and "sending information into another dimension"

Don't even think of asking me about religion. :)

1. If God created you with the freedom of choice and you made the wrong choice then it is his fault? You chose the wrong thing. If he created you to make the right choice and only the right choice then you wouldnt really have that freedom would you. Now this doesnt negate your argument all the way but Im sure it all works out to where you are treated justly. because He is a just God.

2. God doesnt send you to hell for not accepting him. You go to hell because of seperation from God because he cannot be with sin. So when you accept His grace through His Son, then you can be with him because sin doesnt seperate you.

Thanks for the input. Tell me where this thread went wrong and how you would fix it oh "great one"

Where do you want me to start???

Actually, I'm not going to. My advice is this: Plant seeds. Don't try to explain things which you don't fully understand.

I dont fully understand everything but I do understand the thing that matters most. So i feel trhis thread helped alot more than it hurt. So start where you will.

I liked the thread.

I think both nfg and revrew have done a very fine job here. Keep it up guys. There are people out there who have legitimate questions, and you guys have a broad enough knowledge base to answer many of them.

All this topic did for me was make me realize that religion is even more rediculous than I first thought.

Wig, while I do agree with you for the most part. You could phrase it in a different way. I mean Bubba Wheels is a bit over the top. But Revrew, is a good example of a person who has faith but isn't condemning others IMO. But, I'm pretty much with you that Religion is pretty wacked in general.

the topic leaders did a good job of answering questions and explaining. It's just the material they have to work with that's rediculous.

I covered this a little earlier on in either this thread ... here's a copy and paste:

* God knows the past, present and future of everything.
* God gives people free will, at this point he knows all of the possible past, present and futures that can occur - but individual free wills are as yet undetermined (in fact in my theory all possibilities happen as this removes any restrictions on Gods omnipotence, your free will is actually determining which of an infine number of realities which you are in - yeah I know this has gone a tad surreal now).

Bear in mind this is my personal interpretation of things and is most likely rubbish - but it makes sense to me :D

PS. There was a very bad CM based anology regarding this in my post earlier in this thread - read it at your peril ;)

I'm going to go out on a limb here...
wig says the "material we have to work with" is ridiculous. I agree. The word ridiculous (quotes here mean I have my dictionary open on my lap) means "inspiring ridicule, absurd, preposterous." If it inspires ridicule, ridicule means "contemptuous laughter at or feelings toward a person or thing."

In my experience, my views, even especially on this board, are often met with "contemptous laughter" for being seen as "absurd." Cuckoo and nfgs affirmations aside, I could easily be left to wonder: why do people feel the need to laugh at, scorn, even "ridicule" these beliefs? Why is so much effort and energy poured into discrediting these beliefs as illogical? Why the widespread contempt for this particular set of beliefs? (Now, granted, with terrorism on the rise, Muslims get a lot of contempt as well, and with all the door-knocking, Jehovah Witnesses and Mormons get a fair share, too--but there is an odd correlation between Christianity and ridicule. Why?)

Rather than "quoting myself" (cute trick, nfg), I'll just answer my own question. The notion of an all-powerful God that is purely love and justice and goodness is absurd. Ever met anything or anyone else, ever, that fit that description? History's religions are filled with (as druez pointed out) jealous, angry, petty, selfish gods.

And then this God, rather than wiping out evil, decides to try to redeem it? That's ridiculous! Why not just wipe it out and start over? Why not just make it perfect? Sure, Christian, you give me this crap about God loving me too much to just wipe me out, but what is there about me that's so lovely this good God would allow many to suffer and die just so I had a shot? Bump me off, too, and be done with selfish humanity! It is ridiculous.

And then, this God comes as a gentle, suffering servant?? Who could believe that? Why not rock some mountains, speak in a voice heard round the world, COMPEL people to believe in him? To honor our free will and to establish a faith (that is not faith if so easily achieved)? What's the point of that? If you're God, just tell us! It is ridiculous.

*It's ridiculous precisely because when Jesus said, "The kingdom of God is at hand," he was referring to (among other things) a completely different view of reality. A worldview that accepts "I am the Truth" over "I can see the truth with my own two eyes." A worldview based on faith, trust, and invisible over the empirically provable. A worldview that says the greatest inevitable force in the universe is not death, but love.

If we judge Christianity by the human worldview it will always be absurd. Jesus didn't come to fulfill what would make sense to every human, but to give a new sense, a new worldview, a preposterous worldview based on a whole other set of truths.

It's like the Matrix. Judge it by what you see inside the Matrix, and this stuff about humans as batteries and mind-controlling machines is ridiculous. Who could believe that? But Jesus--the only man to live, die, then come back again (and he did it without a telephone line!)--says, "I've got two pills. Take one, and go back to your life inside your worldview. Take the other, and I show you just how deep the rabbit hole goes."

Maybe some of you do think I'm crazy, ridiculous. I can understand why. But I'll tell you this simply: "I'm talking to you from inside the rabbit hole."

Good stuff rev.

Personally, I believe that whatever conclusion a person has come to in regards to this matter (soul, religion, etc) is great. Each one of us has to find his own answers and because it is something that can't be proven (like Valve software had the source code to Half-Life 2 stolen) it is a matter of personal belief.

A person that doesn't believe in the God of the bible, can't prove he doesn't exist, just like a christian can't prove that god exists. There isn't a formula like the one Homer created in the Simpson's (the episode where he had the crayon removed from his brain) that proves god doesn't exist. It just can't be done.

Had this discussion occured 15 years ago, my view point would have been completely the opposite. My road has been long and arduous, yet always thought-induced process. I don't take this stuff lightly because, frankly, my SOUL may depend on it.

The people laughing are flat out wrong to do so. That is elitism. "Ooh, i'm so smart because i don't believe in God and here is why... and you are such an idiot for believing in God and here is why..." Since it can't be proved either way (only speculation and theory) it is only an elitist that would look down upon another's religious belief (or lack thereof).

My mother is deeply religious and we discus this sort of stuff all the time. I don't ever mock my mother for her views. In fact, I'm rather jealous of her for being so convinced while I have lost my way. Especially after growing up going to church 4-5 times a week.

keep on keeping on revrew.

I've enjoyed my conversation with you. I think everyone has a right to believe what they wish, its a personal relationship. My beef isn't with god or christians or muslims etc.... its with those who condemn me for having a different belief. I never got that feeling from you or Ng. Now bubba.... Anyway, good stuff and keep the faith!

LOL. But he created me, which means he created everything about me. Including my thought process. I thought God was perfect...wouldn't this mean he created something imperfect?

I guess it would mean that because we arent perfect. All I know is it isnt God's fault we sin. And He isnt sending you to hell because you wont believe in Him. He send people to hell because He cannot be with their sin which could be washed away by faith in His Son.


I was thinking of writing a FAQ about Christianity, Although it has already been done somewhat I would like to do one.

If you are looking for a good Non-Biased read on Christianity read the Case for Christ and the Case for Faith. The books were written by a hard nosed reporter that Thought his wife was wrong in what she believed and went out to find the truth.

Nah, that's cool. I went to Christian school for 13 years, and no one has been able to successfully convince me of anything.

Although I'm not saying there's no God...as there's a lot about our existance that we don't know anything about...but the God in the Christian Bible is hard for me to believe. He's perfect...but what he makes isn't. He sent his "son" (man-made characteristic if there ever was one) to die for us...and if you don't believe it (because humans by nature are curious, and don't just believe things they're told for no reason), you're going to hell!

It's not my fault God made my brain this way...I really can't help it.

Sidenote: Why would a loving God allow so many wars to be fought over his name?

revrew, i'm writing a paper right now on tertullian's quote, "because it is absurd i believe" it's heavy stuff cuz it's getting into metaphysics, but still a blast (if your like me and like this stuff). what i like about the quote is that it shows the brilliance in simplicity and paradox; two things that this thread has struggled with.
most recent quote i came across from tert. was : heresies sprout from a grain of truth

How else would we know the difference between good and evil? Most of what humankind has throughout history has been motivated by sin.

revrew and BoneGavel. Two outstanding posts.

revrew, the way you have answered some questions in this thread and explained some concepts that I would have a difficult time explaining is very highly commendable. I am very impressed and thought I should send a long a note of appreciation. Good job.

Again your not going to hell for your lack of faith, you go to hell because of your sins that separate you from God. The faith that could save you shows God's love.

If God stopped all evil then there would be all good and we wouldnt have the choice between the two.

If I'm reading this correctly, God is making his point by having millions killed?

LOL. This is getting comical. Do you're saying wars are good?

But the brain that God created for me doesn't allow me to "have faith"...it makes me question things. If someone told me that I'd have $1,000,000 by tomorrow...I wouldn't believe him. Now, that doesn't mean I wont have the $, but I can't just have blind faith in things because something might be true.

No im saying if God didnt allow evil things then only good would be left. So you couldnt choose to be corrupt and stray from God, because all that would be there is good. Now the reason we are here is to have freedom of choice. You cant have that freedom if you dont have a choice.

So God is letting us have the choice, then damning you for making the choice. Sweeeeet.

So it was God's fault that you chose not top follow Him? The facts are laid out and the choice is here. Beleive what you like and when you die you can complain to God.

Wow...the 40th time typing this. God isnt sending you to hell for rejecting Him. It is the principle that you cant be with him because He is completely Just and cannot be with sin.

rexall: Wars are what sinful man have done, still do and will continue to do to "solve issues". The only way there could be no more wars is to have no more sin. God is not a puppeteer, He gave us free will to choose. Some have chosen the most powerful weapon - prayer, while most others have not not.

"If my people shall confess their sins and turn from their wicked ways, I will heal your land"

Facts? Please show me one fact that proves that God exists. I personally don't know if he does or doesn't...but please let's get one thing clear: NO ONE KNOWS FOR CERTAIN.

Maybe fallacy to you but you have seen what I have typed and when the time comes you will see.

Saying I see it as a "fallacy" says that I'm saying it's not true...when I don't know if it's true or not. I can't believe in it because I don't have any information that would lead me to make a decision, one way or another.

Ha! Where have I 'condemed' anyone? I think that stating the direct position on anything using the Bible as the source is just going to make alot of people mad. If someone else is able to appeal more to your 'sensibilities' than I do, great! But your statement kind of speaks for itself, in that while someone like the others are easier for you to listen to you will still reject the message. And again, my point is not to attempt 'conversion' of anyone, just stating 'the facts, maam,' as the Bible lays them out. There is your real problem. :)

Again, where have I condemed you? But if I quote the Bible and you feel condemed, well maybe you SHOULD consider the source! :)

Freaky coincidence. Of course, one of my favorite stories is of a man with severely disabling ALS who went on the Oprah show. He couldn't speak any more, but his wife "just happened" to be a speech therapist. She worked daily with people with severe speech impediments, and she was therefore able to understand her husband as his voice turned to garbled mush. On the show, the wife translated her husband's garblings to the audience.

"What an amazing coincidence," Oprah said, "that you're in such a position to understand your husband.

The husband mumbled something. "He says," said the wife, "'A coincidence is nothing but a small miracle in which God opts to remain anonymous.'"

I love it. Anyways, metaphysics coincidences and "so absurd I believe" coincidences have been fun to watch in this thread. But this thread sort of reminds me of another Tertullian quote: "What has Athens to do with Jerusalem?"

The theory is that God doesn't cause any wars to happen or sin to be done, howeveer by giving humans free will they are able to commit both awful atrocities but amazing acts of compassion and kindness ....

God could prevent all wars, but by doing so that would remove humans free-will ....

Time for a bad analogy:

I write evolutionary AI for my games, this learns and adapts as the game operates (which is why people moan that their tactics get 'cracked' in CM) - sometimes the AI does things I'd wrongly and has to make mistakes before learning to succeed - however this doesn't mean that I should purely restrict it to doing the 'right' thing at all times, this would make the engine inflexible and less able in the long run.

I believe humanity is similar to this, we do great harm and can cause devastating damage both to ourselves and the planet we live on, however I believe we (as a species) are slowly learning and heading in the right direction ..

I'm just curious as to how you would define 'fact.' What are you looking for in terms of a 'fact'?

I'm also unsure how one can substantiate that no one knows for certain. How do we know that no one knows for certain? How could we defend that claim? It seems that to make that kind of general statement, we would have to speak to every single person who has ever lived and lives. How do we know that God hasn't spoken to someone directly, either in history or in our lifetime? I don't think it's as clear as getting this one thing clear.

Have you even seen Anna Kournikova? If that's not proof of God, it's at least proof of the devil. Temptation is the darndest thing... :D

Here is my thing and I know im going to be called crazy for saying this but here it goes. Since my dedication to Christ I have many a time talked with God. Now no a voice did not come and speak directly but I have talked with Him and yes He responds. Also I can feel the presence of God in me when I am deeply in worship or in prayer with Him. There are many more things in my life that confirm my beliefs but those are a few.

Well said. The only other "fact" I would mention is my daughter. For me, I'm absolutely sure of God everytime I look at her.

I agree Marc 100%. I'm just don't think its the god in the bible that is pulling the strings. I point back to a constant that started it all, but doesn't really care how it turns out one way or another. It doesn't have human characteristics, so how can we expect it to think and act like a human. That is humans writing about what they don't understand.

I to believe that the human species is making slow progress, but In the grand scheme of things we really aren't that old of a species.

Think about this 20 lifetimes could be strung back to back since the day Jesus was born.

i.e. person born 0AD and lived to 100AD person born in 100AD lived to 200AD you get the point.

That isn't that long.....

Anyway, I'm still pretty convinced that souls are recycled and at times when you meet people who are wise when they are young, you refer to them as an old soul for a reason.

Remember energy can't be created or destroyed correct?

Back to the circle of life .........

nfg22, just stating something doesn't make it so. Humans have a limited capacity for understanding (i.e., we know through our senses) and just because some people get warm fuzzies when thinking about god, doesn't make it real. I get warm fuzzies thinking that Microsoft may actually produce a secure operating system, but I know that ain't never going to happen. Though somebody might, and that is ok.

If god created us, then he knows that we have a limited capacity. We are all Doubting Thomas' and need to touch things and see them to believe. One trip to a McDonalds drive-thru and you understand that you can't take it on faith that what you believe is in the bag is actually there. You have to stop at the window and check your order.

I believe in gravity and not because of some vague ramblings on paper by Sir Isaac Newton, but because I have seen its effects first hand.

I don't understand why God doesn't show himself to us and make himself known in a real way. If he is worried that this will taint us and get rid of free-will, all he has to do is see that Adam and Eve knew god existed and they still didn't listen. Hell, lucifer was his right hand man and he rebelled. I don't think he has a leg to stand on for an excuse not to make himself known to us in a real way. He will still get his batch of non-believers that he must have in order to feel like he has given free-will to people and he always has satan to push around.

I challenge god... show yourself and stop this invisible shit. You're messing with my soul here. [looks overhead for cumulonimbus clouds]

Excellent! Go for it, man! Try restating that challenge for 30 days and keeping your eyes open. I would be curious to see the results. Want to do a dynasty?

Okay, now that sounds like I'm joking. But (dynasty aside), I'm not. Have you ever? Actually woke up each morning for a month solid asking the same questions of the heavens? "God, if you're there, show me!" I would really be interesting in hearing what you saw/learned after the 30 days.

Been there many times. As many jokes that i interlace in my comments, I really take this seriously, again because this possibly has to do with eternity.

What I am convinced of, however, is that many people that call on god like this may fall into the horrorscope trap and read into events what they want to see. There could have been 20 things that happened that another person would have seen as "god's reply" and I don't.

What I am talking about rev is I want god to ring my doorbell, show me a few tricks (like how to fold my underwear via mindpowers), maybe act like the ghosts of A Christmas Carol and take me on a little trip and tell me the straight facts.

If he would just do that, then I would say that I was given the choice and if I failed to believe, my bad. I'm sure if he did that, some people would still reject him, but that is fine. They were given a fair shake.

[edit - add this]
The reply i get most from believers when I talk like this is: "that isn't the way it works, you must simply have faith." or "you are seeing it from man's perspective and not god's." As for the last comment, you're damned right I'm seeing it from man's perspective, i don't really have a choice (especially since I'm constantly reminded how I could never understand god's *mind*).

Been there tried that. I called it out, called it names. Called it a liar. Ripped it, dissed it even tried to kiss it. :) Same shit different day.....

(For the sake of a counter arguement)

But it could be argued that you see creations of God (ie. everything) every day but deny his existance regardless.

You don't know that 'gravity' as a law is accurate or correct, just if you throw something in the air it will fall down ... you have 'faith' that this is due to the lawy of gravity ...

Some people understand the laws of physics (and hence why in theory gravity works) - some however simply accept that it sounds plausible with the information they have to hand and leave it at that.

Peoples believe in God is very similar, some are natural cynics (I am) and question everything several times before deciding which way to jump, where as for some blind faith and the knowledge that many people believe it is enough.

In both situations there is an aspect of 'faith' as the true truth cannot be discerned at present (bear in mind the law of gravity is still a 'theory' - one which could be disproved (unlikely, but possible - the world was flat once ;) )).

Each individual must decide where to put their faith and live with the consequences of that decision, personally I'm hoping someone will disprove the law of gravity so I can learn to fly ;)

How much faith would it take to believe in somthing you see? If God came and talked to you today and showed you 1000 miracles and you beleived is it because of faith or fact? My fuzzys that I get arent like that I can feel somthing in me. No I dont think your below me for not beleiving because I once thought the same thing, then again you could say I make this up so you would believe me, but why would I beleive in somthing I make up? Search and you will find, God will not show himself unless you are serious and seek Him with your lifes intent but then you will be rewarded.

This reply sparked somthing in my mind. Now I say that I know for sure and I just thought that maybe the miracle is supposed to be the complete transformation in someone that has accepted Christ. I have changed my whole life but I still dont have the overpowering love that I should for people maybe Im whats wrong in this miracle?

An invisible *man* has left it up to me to learn of my eternal salvation via a book that was written by fellow humans and is so open to interpretation that few people that read it and believe it come to the same conclusions?

It would seem to me that if eternal life in heaven is paramount (this life is fleeting and eternity is, well, eternal), God would make it a little more concrete for those of us who don't get it on faith alone. We aren't all wired the same and God should know this. Everyone's needs are a little different. I need to poke my fingers in Christ's wounds, if you catch my drift.

That's why we have His words, so you can see His purpose and works. Ask Him to show Himself to you and He will do so in ways that you wouldn't expect, if your eyes, ears and heart are open!

Well I beleive that the only thing that is immenent to be interpreted is Christ dying for all of us and saving us if we choose to believe in Him, the rest is trivial to this. It is very clear of this message. Would and all loving God condemn you if He didnt give you enough evidence? I would believe that He will give you what you need if you look.(not saying you arent)

by the way, what happened to the souls of all those people who lived in North and South America prior to the 1500s? Are they all in hell because they were not "saved" by christ?

yab, the Scriptures said that God would reveal himself to everyone in many different ways. Psalms specifically spoke of through nature. However, those who have heard the Word and the gospel of Jesus Christ will be held accountable for it. Those (relatively) few that had not heard the Word would have the it presented to them in other ways. I said relatively few because most of the people that ever lived on this earth have been around since mid-20th century (or something like that).

Can you give me a cite for this?

While it is relative, we are talking about hundreds of millions of poeple, including the Mayan, Toltec, and Aztec civilizations, every one of whom died without ever hearing of christ much less being "saved" by him. I'm genuinely interested in the answer to this question.

This has always been a question of mine. What about the buddhist who leads a great life but believes in his God over what the x-tians thing is their God...simply because that's all he knows.

Ridiculous.

I would submit that it may be possible for someone who has never heard of Jesus Christ to still be saved by Jesus Christ (salvation being a 'heart issue', or 'condition') but no one who is ever saved will have been saved by anyone OTHER than Jesus Christ. (Jesus also said that there would be different degrees of punishment, and talked about how Capernum would suffer more in the day of judgement than Sodom and Gommorah would because had the latter seen the Miracles of Christ they would have repented.)

According to who? You and the Bible? Forgive me if I doubt the authenticity of Jesus as the son of God.

So it seems reasonable then, that we shouldn't be spreading the word of God to other countries. Using the above Budhist, what if he was doing the right thing without knowing god and then a missionary talked to him about Jesus. He stays Budhist and is now going to hell. If the missionary had shut their mouth, he may have been saved by god's *alternate methods* that I hear so much about.

Is Gandhi suffering the torment of eternal damnation in the flaming pits of hell?

Its real simple: If and when you hear the Word of God, you become responsible for it. Period. What was being 'speculated' about is those that do not hear the Word of God IN THE CONVENTIONAL sense. That may or may not be a different thing, but that is for God to know and worry about. If you really want to get into it, read Romans. Paul goes to great lengths to lay out the different aspects to God's Law and Grace (2 seperate but related things.)

Interesting you mention Gandhi. I heard a story about him once (no way for me to determine its origin or verocity.) Seems Gandhi attended a Christian church at one point before his political rise. The story goes Gandhi was not well treated by some of the church members (church membership does NOT get you into heaven, by the way) and so he turned his back on Christianity in general. Christians and church members (not always the same thing) will answer to God someday for what they did on earth and especially in His Name, but regardless nothing they can ever do would EVER change a thing in God's Word as regarding who Christ is or what we are expected to become in Him ("Yes, let every man be a liar but God's Word is true.")

In that case, I don't have to worry, because I've never heard it. You would think that something so all-powerful wouldn't use smoke, mirrors, and guesswork to make his presence known.

Problem solved!

You've got the story wrong, Bubba.

Really? Then enlighten me with the real one. ;)

We're in the Matrix.... this is not real folks...

(This came after my challenge to take up 30 days of prayerful sky-searching for God) - As for me, I'm on day 4,283 right now (granted, I didn't count up the leapyear days, so + or - 5 days). Every day for 4,283 days, I have woken up and asked "God, enough of this invisible shit (okay, those aren't my exact words, but those are the words bonegavel used, and they reflect accurately my thoughts)...show yourself to me today."

Now, if you want to dismiss my story as horoscope self-delusionment, that's your prerogative. But in all that time, God has only rarely gone more than 30 days without making his presence abundantly clear to me. Those 30+ stretches were some of the most difficult days of my life, but they were often followed by some of the clearest revelations of my Christian walk.

Again, you may dismiss it as self-delusionment, but I prefer to think of it the way Billy Graham once said: "I can't see the wind. I can see the effects of the wind, but I can't see the wind." Do I therefore doubt the existence of wind? No. Because I can witness it's effects.

"But the wind is scientifically measurable!" you say. Of course. Science is the measure designed by God to test things physical. Faith is the measure designed by God to test things spiritual.

I can't see God. But I've seen his effects. For 4,283 days and counting.

Yeah Exactly what I am saying too. You can dismiss the feeling I get and the things that happen in my life by i know they are true.

I think the biggest problem I have with what you are saying is the lack of control.

Many religious people use the mantra it was gods will. Or in gods plan. If its his will or his plan, then why give us free choice? Once again very contradictive.

I like to take credit for the good things I do in my life, I also like to shoulder the blame when bad things come my way.

Example in 2000 Alison a tropical storm hit in Houston. My 2 story condo was flooded and my wife was about 3 months pregnant at the time. I was living in a neighborhood that wasn't so great. I had no idea at the time being new to the area that the neighborhood was not a very conducive place to raise a child.

Anyway, rather then cry over spilled milk, I got out of my lease because of the flood took a loan out from my company and moved into a very nice neighborhood.

Many of you god type folks, will say it was gods will, or see god works in mysterious ways. Where I go by the mantra shit happens. You deal with the cards you are dealt and make descisions as you go.

It just seems god is for the "weak" minded or "weak" willed. I'm not saying you guys all are, but on the few occasions in my life where crap was going bad, I caught myself about to pray to god for help and stopped and said fuck that I'm stronger then that.

"Shit happens" - did you know that was a biblical quote?

Okay, actually it's stated a bit less crudely - Rich and the poor...good and bad...wise and foolish..."Time and circumstance happen to them all". In other words, shit happens.

But is there no purpose, no meaning, no plan to the shit? Did the sun and moon and earth and carbon and oxygen and H2O and all that just accidentally come together? Am I to believe I am nothing more than a bag of plasma and protein? That there is no purpose or meaning for me being here? To me, that would take a lot of faith. A lot of faith in the power of cynicism to conquer all.

In essence, I see no validity to the "weak mind" argument. I think it takes a weak mind (likewise, not saying that YOU are) to only be able to base value and truth judgments on what the eye can see. In that way, the human mind is no more perceptive or intelligent than a dog. It only believes what images it's optical nerve can process. I think it takes a weak mind to watch a sunset and say, "It's just an accident that that is there." Can that mind not conceive anything greater? Is the human mind so dull that it can not turn patterns of events into evidence of a higher intelligence?

In essence, if faith in God is evidence of a weak mind, faith in the eyeballs alone to determine truth is no less evidence of a weak mind. I could press my point further and argue from a humanities perspective that it's even MORE evidence of a weakER mind, but I won't. I'll simply leave it at this: the weak mind argument, the crutch argument, etc. is mute. We ALL have bases for truth determination that are founded on psychological, emotional, and personal reasons and reactions. Faith in one system is no more weak than the other. We ALL have weak minds. (Of course, that's a biblical quote, too.)

I look at it this way (time for a very bad analogy again - you lot should be used to them by now ;) ).

As well as doing coding/design at SI, I manage the all the development staff in the company. I do this in what appears to be a very loose manner.

I ensure that everyone works on the areas of the game they enjoy the most and they keep work hours which they prefer (some work 8-5.30, some 11-7 or whatever) and while I oversee the designs for each area, unless I find something which is flawed I let people run with things in the manner they prefer... hence they have a lot of 'free will'.

Most people at SI don't know what everyone else is working on, simply because things tend to motor at a very fast rate - they simply trust me to keep track of things.

I organise all these disparate activities subtly and coordinate all the different threads of activity to give a coherant conclusion which ends in a (hopefully) successful game release for each product.

This is how I view Gods organisation of the world and mankind, we have free-will, but God puts us each in the situations which we need to learn from and has a master plan which he's nudging us in the direction of - some people trust him that he knows what he's doing, some however don't have faith yet ....


I know many people who are far from 'weak minded' or 'weak willed' who are christians, in fact the majority of christians I know are very strong minded individuals - the majority of which still test and question their faith in God on a daily basis.

Hmm perhaps, I came off in the wrong way. Many still seem to think I don't believe in a force or a god. I do indeed believe in a higher power or as I like to call it a constant. I just don't believe that this force, power etc... has all the human emotions or characteristics we place upon it in the bible. I do not believe that he felt the need to send himself down in human form.

Yes, shit does happen and karma another thing I believe in works in mysterious ways. While a good many of you look at this higher power in a human sense from the bible. I tend to seperate myself from the blinders and think.

What about the rest of the universe, there has to be other civilations out there.
Do they have different beliefs in gods?
Have they figured out more then us?

While, we may never agree on the bible per say, I think we are on the same page in believing there is a force out there. The first cause or constant.

There has to be a balance in all things.

Here we go again... :rolleyes:

Maybe God is so loving in His mercy that He was helping you out all along, but doing it more for your wife and kids in a bad situation despite a guy filled with too much pride and spite to ask God for help himself.

A man with much faith in God climbed onto his roof one day during a very bad flood. Soon a boat came along and the man said 'Get in!" Man on the roof replied "I'm going to wait for God to save me!"

A little later a man in a rubber raft came along and said to the man on the roof "Get in!" Man on the roof replied "I'm waiting for God to save me!" Water was getting very high now.

Finally a helicopter came along and a man with a bullhorn lowered a rope and said "Grab it!" Man on the roof yelled back...well, you know what he yelled back. Then he drowned and went on to his reward.

As the man stood before God in heaven he asked "Lord, why didn't you save me?" God replied, "I sent you a boat, a raft and a helicopter, why didn't you use one?" Moral of the story is very simple, God is often working all the time, we just often choose to ignore Him. "Why does this generation seek a sign? Only an evil generation seeks a sign, and the sign you will get will be the sign of Jonah." Jesus in the Gospels. Those who know God and commune with Him do not need the spectacular to know that He is there.

But bubba, God would have known that the man wasn't going to accept the rides.

While I respect your veiws because they do come from intellegence, you seem to mix up God needing to send His Son. He did not need, He did it because He wanted to and to show His love to you, so you could have an opportunity to be with Him someday.


God is infused with some human characteristics yes, but He is not modeled after us, yet we are modeled after Him as it says in the bible. Thus the animals do not convey the so called Humanly emotions that we do because they were not modeled after Him.

You say God is for the weak minded to lean on in times of trouble? Well yes that is true, I am weak and I lean on him in times of trouble, yet I also accredit that trouble to being my fault but when in times of prosper I also lean on Him yet I give him credit for those times.

But how can He say to the man I would have sent them but you wouldnt have accepted. Then the man's argument that God wasnt there would have held.

I can prove that...I can't tell you how because it might put me in a bad position, but if I had to, I could. :D

Nice. I don't mean to hijack a holy thread, but I cannot wait for this and Doom III to arrive. Normally, I could care less, but the Half-life demo video was unbelievable and Doom III is, well, Doom III.

Yes, I'm highly anticipating both (and although I know the code was stolen, I also think they're using it as a convinient excuse to delay the game. It would have been delayed anyway, we all know that. They always get delayed. :) )

And with that, let the religious discussion continue.

(again) by the way, what happened to the souls of all those people who lived in North and South America prior to the 1500s? Are they all in hell because they were not "saved" by christ?